Not gonna lie, I would have lost my shit if the Elden Ring news hadnt leaked (and if GRRM had kept its mouth shut) especially seeing how the trailer held the writer credit for a second.
Shame
Shame
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J. Schreier: "Don't let billion dollar marketing convince you it's a spoiler" [See Threadmarks for further clarification]
- Thread starter Musubi
- Start date
lol it keeps happening
Exactly. It's all theater to get people talking about these games, to generate buzz that would hopefully translate into sales. It's fine to like it and enjoy it, but then to get mad about "spoilers" for commercials is asinine.
also honestly big shout out to everyone who keeps referring to "websites posting marketing materials expressly designed to be posted on those websites verbatim, but like a few days early" as "clickbait" to defend the sanctity of hour and a half long commercial reels whose entire allure is the there may be surprise commercials you weren't expecting.
I will agree with you that video game marketing has made video games as a hobby a bit of a boys' club. Gameboy was a thing for fifteen years, and it's literally in the name to imply that this is a toy for a boy. I do think the industry has gotten better at this: Nintendo, since the Wii has been showing boys and girls in their commercials and trailers. The girls aren't just playing Wii Fit, they're playing Zelda, Metroid, sports games, etc. Obviously there's still a ways to go, but more and more games are letting you play as a girl, marketing has been better at including girls, I do think we'll get there, even if the Gamergate/Kotaku In Action crowd never goes away fully.
However, linking the issue with representation with E3 trailers is a stretch. I understand that both are marketing, but to me E3 is a celebration of video games. I believe that even if you look at the show is simply a way to make money off large groups of people, to people like me who aren't into sports, this is my Super Bowl. I make bets with my friends about what will be shown, I listen to podcasts about it, theories about it, hype about it, reactions, conference reviews so on and so forth. Even if it is just marketing, I think we as a gaming community have taken it as our own in a sense.
Nintendo made Super Smash Bros. Ultimate to make money. The team also worked on it to make the best game they possibly could. The reason that character reveals are so impactful is because of what I just talked about: the hype, the excitement, the speculation. If "Everyone Is Here" leaked, sure it would've stuck it to the big billion dollar company, but it would've also resulted in a lot less excitement. Watch Easy Allies reaction to that reveal.
I guess my point is maybe I'm just falling for a marketing scheme, but I'm having fun and I'm enjoying it, and no gaming journalist or Resetera user can tell me how to have fun.
Like, here's the thing, and I'm gonna try to do my best to describe my thoughts because this shit is pretty abstract and I'm jittery from caffeine.
When I engage with video games, I enjoy them as video games - an existing piece of media I interact with. I can talk to people about how the game made me feel. I can discuss qualities about the game with others. We can share opinions about the video game, as a video game. When people enjoy these reveals, they don't enjoy them as reveals, they enjoy them for what they represent - video games that aren't released. The feelings derived from reveals are feelings derived from something that doesn't exist yet. This is what I mean by a reveal being "meaningless." Its value isn't derived from it's own qualities (although a well executed reveal for an anticipated game builds hype better than a poorly executed one), but the non-existent qualities of a non-existent piece of media. It's all in our heads!
To think about this in a different way, let's look at PT. PT was both a game, and a teaser. It can be enjoyed as a game on its own merits, unlike an E3 reveal. But my strongest feelings about it will never be resolved because those feelings are derived from it as a teaser, a teaser for a game that will never be real. (it still hurts) That's why vaporware, and games with great reveals but don't live up to the hype, are so interesting - and best illustrate my point. Our feelings for what they "could have been" will never be resolved. The same mechanisms that drive these strong feelings about "what could have been" are what marketing teams tap into to drive game sales.
Marketing teams get us to engage with "what could be," because we can't engage with their video game - as a video game - because it doesn't exist yet. So all this bickering and arguing about leaking a reveal because it causes less consumer engagement is silly to me, because people are fighting over feelings about a marketing ploy hyping up something that isn't real yet and may never be real.
When I engage with video games, I enjoy them as video games - an existing piece of media I interact with. I can talk to people about how the game made me feel. I can discuss qualities about the game with others. We can share opinions about the video game, as a video game. When people enjoy these reveals, they don't enjoy them as reveals, they enjoy them for what they represent - video games that aren't released. The feelings derived from reveals are feelings derived from something that doesn't exist yet. This is what I mean by a reveal being "meaningless." Its value isn't derived from it's own qualities (although a well executed reveal for an anticipated game builds hype better than a poorly executed one), but the non-existent qualities of a non-existent piece of media. It's all in our heads!
To think about this in a different way, let's look at PT. PT was both a game, and a teaser. It can be enjoyed as a game on its own merits, unlike an E3 reveal. But my strongest feelings about it will never be resolved because those feelings are derived from it as a teaser, a teaser for a game that will never be real. (it still hurts) That's why vaporware, and games with great reveals but don't live up to the hype, are so interesting - and best illustrate my point. Our feelings for what they "could have been" will never be resolved. The same mechanisms that drive these strong feelings about "what could have been" are what marketing teams tap into to drive game sales.
Marketing teams get us to engage with "what could be," because we can't engage with their video game - as a video game - because it doesn't exist yet. So all this bickering and arguing about leaking a reveal because it causes less consumer engagement is silly to me, because people are fighting over feelings about a marketing ploy hyping up something that isn't real yet and may never be real.
Great post and easy to follow despite you being insanely high on caffeine
5 hour energies are no joke. It helps that I just got a Youtube crash course on Hauntology (thanks Cuck Philosophy!)
I need to watch more Cuck Philosophy. The name alone is worth it.
It is click bait. And youre right that the spoiler is a commercial reel. Its weird and its dumb that we treat these commercials as the celebration of all the ideas, visions and hard work of the industry we love the most. Id like to be surprised to escape the everyday cynicism and bathe in this dirty nostalgia that keeps most of us as manchildren because the current year fucking sucks all around.
So, im just saying dont be an asshole and spoil this insignificant thing just for some clicks and 15 seconds of internet fame. Dont confirm shit knowing youre a reliable source, it makes you a leaker too. E3 is all the worse for it and let me reiterate, the person known as the spoiler can go fuck itself and I will keep crying over my spoiled commercials.
Click bait is "You won't believe what this athlete did! It will leave you in tears." It isn't "Massive E3 Leak Reveals From Software Game With George R.R. Martin, New Tales Game, Ni no Kuni Remastered". That tells you everything you need to know.
As a consumer I don't particularly lose anything from finding out about a game early.
But I don't gain anything either.
And anyone with even a bit of common business sense or education knows that people suggesting leaks don't affect anything are talking out of their ass. It's the difference between a game ending up on the front page of games outlets over competitors and being lost in the background.
But I don't gain anything either.
And anyone with even a bit of common business sense or education knows that people suggesting leaks don't affect anything are talking out of their ass. It's the difference between a game ending up on the front page of games outlets over competitors and being lost in the background.
I'm a broken record at this point, but I again feel like it's just pretty self-evident that the Hype Machine is just a force you'd be foolish to think you can completely control. It's not surprising that marketing types want to try to tap into it. But it shouldn't be surprising when this act that requires an enormous coordination of unpredictable talent doesn't behave exactly as expected. Furthermore, the impatience of the fans is precisely what you need to fuel the hype that will make your reveal a moment to remember. People aren't wrong to want to harness this energy for their benefit, but they are being reckless if they think they can tame it and bend it to their will. The enthusiasm people have for leaks is precisely the same enthusiasm they need for people to have for the properly planned reveal to work in the first place.
Everything is in our heads. You can't say "Feelings from marketing are an illusion" then turn around and pretend that feelings from games are real. It's all an illusion. What's real is what you feel. If a reveal makes you excited, it makes you excited. Excitement is pleasant. If a leak prevents you from feeling that excitement, it's a spoiler.
You can think that people shouldn't care as much or complain as much, but saying it's not a real spoiler because it's marketing is silly. E3 excitement is so easy to show; video after video after video can be shown of tons of people experiencing joy at announcements. Saying "But it's just a commercial" is just trying to be galaxy-brained about something everyone already understands. Bottom line: If people would have really enjoyed a surprise, and then than enjoyment is lessened because of a leak, it's a spoiler. Marketing and billion dollar corporations or no.
Virtually every piece of media that gets released about a game before release is marketing. Every trailer, reveal or otherwise is marketing. Every "dev walkthrough" is marketing. Every "backseat pass" is marketing. Everything is a commercial to an end. The "it has money behind it because they want to make money therefore no one can want to be maximize excitement" view is a moronic non-argument. Welcome to entertainment, people make money.
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I understand all of that, but as BuddyDharma posted, we are not excited for the announcements themselves, we are excited for the games. And I'm of the opinion is that if you want to be excited for reveals, go ahead. However, the information regarding what will be announced is not spoilers.
I'm excited for the reveals themselves, specifically. Now, nothing wrong with discussing them beforehand, sure; I'm not going to tell people to watch out for my sake. Other people don't share my view on what kind of things to be excited about, and that's fine. When I saw spoilers, I wasn't even close to going into the thread and going "you guuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuys...!" because I'm a normal person who maintains self awareness and doesn't like telling people how to feel.
But the dual views of "being excited for reveals, and hoping that they weren't spoiled for themselves, is unhealthy" and "lol don't they know it's all just corporate propaganda; that's not something to derive excitement from" that I keep seeing in this thread is some absolute nonsense.
I'm sure it *can* be unhealthy if taken way overboard. But it's not inherently unhealthy for everyone who likes reveals, nor are people somehow blinded to the idea that it's from a company.
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I'm saying that there is, in practice, a difference between feelings derived from things-as-things (enjoying playing a video game) and feelings derived as things-as-ideas (enjoying the idea of a yet-to-be-released video game.) It's not that one set of feelings is more real than the other. I'm talking about what these feelings are based on. It does have an effect on how our "gaming culture" is formed.
I'm not smart or well enough to predict exactly how or why, but I'm self-aware enough to realize this is a very relevant topic to our society as a whole, as we interact more and more in abstract ways (say, shitposting as an online persona instead of physically talking to human beings) with more and more abstract ideas. That's why I focus so hard on the marketing aspect, because our society is primed intuitively to find and take advantage of these abstract concepts for the sake of profit before anything else.
So would you feel excited about a well-executed reveal for a new women's razor from Gillette? You can't separate the reveals from the concept of the yet-to-be released games they're putting in our heads. Although "putting in our heads" may not be the best way of putting it, since part of the effect comes from our willingness to buy into it. It's like a magic show - we all know it's not real. But at what point does that willing suspension of belief become unhealthy? When do people need to just... let go?
Video games aren't women's razors. They're a completely different product, that work in different ways in their announcement, end application, and hype train. Sorry, not buying that comparison. What's more, if someone was excited for such a thing - I'd probably be moreso myself, if I didn't know women's razors to be very samey and not really advance as a technology, well, nothing wrong with that on it's face. I'm not going to tell them their excitement is unhealthy. Similarly, nothing about liking reveals is inherently unhealthy. Nothing.
When *does* it become unhealthy? People telling other people how to feel is certainly a good place to start, I'd say. Harassment is definitely on the "unhealthy" side. But that's not the same as merely being excited for something, and being annoyed with having it spoiled, without harassing people. There is a gigantic gulf between the two.
Aka, being a fan for anything. People can go overboard with all manner of things, not just reveals. People don't like having sport scores spoiled for them before they've seen the game, and some people take it too far. Video game reveals aren't any inherently worse than anything else, and anyone saying otherwise; that not liking to be personally spoiled in advance of them is inherently, by itself, with no attached other actions besides internal annoyance; to say that's "unhealthy". well, they're just making things up, jumping to conclusions, and telling people how to feel. Now *that's* unhealthy.
The specific product wasn't important. My point was what is revealed is inextricably linked to the reveal itself. People insist that the reveal itself is what they're excited for, but that requires a yet-to-be-released-video-game to be revealed in the first place. Maybe I should have gone with something less absurd, like a car, or a new Bubsy game. Other industries, like automotive, have product reveals and conventions and whatnot like games do. But, to my knowledge, car culture doesn't have a 50 page topic on spoiling a reveal of a yet-to-be-released car.
Feeling bad because a reveal was spoiled is unhealthy in the sense it's a situation that causes stress, and was completely avoidable. I'm not saying everyone needs to hole up in a Buddhist monastery until they relinquish themselves of clinging to desire, but I think clinging to this desire causes undue, easily avoidable stress.
Fandom may not be unhealthy in itself, but it's a good foundation for unhealthy thoughts and behaviors. People who wrap up a part of their identities into consumable products are entrusting a part of themselves to something fleeting and outside of their control.
Because cars aren't presented like games. You keep talking about products that aren't games. Saying "the product isn't important" doesn't make it so. Even then, if someone *was* looking forward to a reveal of a car? Not unhealthy. Who would I be to tell people what they can or can not derive excitement from?
Simply not liking an outcome doesn't make it unhealthy. People can be let down when a game is released; that doesn't make it unhealthy. Once again, you jump to absurd extremes, but the reality doesn't change: liking reveals isn't unhealthy. Actions *can*, but just the like or dislike? No. If your only "reason" is "negative emotions in any amount at all are unhealthy", well, I have some bad news for you.
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Okay, I don't think you're getting what I'm saying at a fundamental level, and I look forward to the 50 page shitfit Era will have in 2029 about the ten second pre-teaser teaser trailer for Red Dead Redemption 3 being spoiled because someone spoiled the fact it was prerendered three days before the official announcement of the pre-pre-teaser teaser trailer.
I am getting it, and I think you're wrong. You're conflating emotions with action, and negativity with extremes.
What has he personally leaked? This question has been asked several times in the thread and has never been answered. Maybe you can provide one for the class instead.
Fucking amazing how many times this shit has been repeated in this thread.
It's not a difficult concept to grasp.
And again, it's not just "MA SpoiLEr CuLTuRE!" it effects the business of gaming and the developers themselves.
Fuck any other noise, it's high horse bullshit and people not giving two fucks how others think/feel, from the fans to the developers themselves.
Ah fuck me, I posted in the wrong thread ahahha.
With Scheier's additional context posted as threadmarks and the reactions from fellas in the game industry in the other thread asking about their opinion on leaks I've never thought of the game industry being effected by leaks moreso than others, but it definitely appears that it does.
I've never really had an opinion on leaks until this E3, where everything was pouring out right and left, and I do feel like it correlates with how general reaction to E3 thus far, so it could get weird seeing how things progress in later years.
With Scheier's additional context posted as threadmarks and the reactions from fellas in the game industry in the other thread asking about their opinion on leaks I've never thought of the game industry being effected by leaks moreso than others, but it definitely appears that it does.
I've never really had an opinion on leaks until this E3, where everything was pouring out right and left, and I do feel like it correlates with how general reaction to E3 thus far, so it could get weird seeing how things progress in later years.
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I don't have a huge personal stake in this either way. Traditionally a preference for surprises but, eh, whatever.
What I would say is that I don't think this years E3 has done much to prove Jason wrong so far. For the sake of the CGI trailers we've seen, I feel like I know barely any more about most of these games after they were officially announced, than when they were a leaked title or image embedded in a Tweet.
I lose sympathy for publishers losing control of their messaging, if their messaging is as vague (and occasionally misrepresented) as we see from CGI trailers.
What I would say is that I don't think this years E3 has done much to prove Jason wrong so far. For the sake of the CGI trailers we've seen, I feel like I know barely any more about most of these games after they were officially announced, than when they were a leaked title or image embedded in a Tweet.
I lose sympathy for publishers losing control of their messaging, if their messaging is as vague (and occasionally misrepresented) as we see from CGI trailers.
I didn't even know until this thread that people are averse to having game announcements spoiled.
But I've always thought E3 pressers were a slog that I'm not interested in. E3 as an event always primarily been a showcase of game technology and development in my head. Cheering or going apeshit for announcements is just a bit weird to me.
But I've always thought E3 pressers were a slog that I'm not interested in. E3 as an event always primarily been a showcase of game technology and development in my head. Cheering or going apeshit for announcements is just a bit weird to me.
Pretty much this. Telling the punch line without the comedic timing when someone else is telling the joke.
Yeah, but as i mentioned, for many, they look forward to a specific day/event (like E3) where they expect to be surprised. If they know "everything" in advance, theres less to look forward to for that specific day, and they think that is a bit of a bummer. I dont think theres much more to it than that, and personally, i dont think its ridiculous to feel that way. I dont care that much myself because at the end of the day when the games come out, i wont really think much about how they were announced.
This is just for the consumer point of view. Theres also the element of the developer/publisher as well. Many of them want to announce the game themself for the first time.
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That definitely happends as well. Not sure its easy to tell when its a controlled leak (done by the companies on purpsose) or not though.
How does this change the surprise element? They know everything in advance... But at a certain point they'll know about the game, right? They will be surprised at the point.
Here's my take: as a person who works in advertising / marketing, i can absolutely guarantee you that leaks happen all the time. I never specifically worked on games, but regarding services or products, they happen. We were working on the campaign to launch a certain streaming service in our country and somebody without a major stake in it just leaked our whole plan. It sucked, yeah. It also created immense hype. We were prepared with our messaging and it didn't really affect our release.
Here's my take as a former journalist: again, not game-related, but the most important things for a journalist are his sources. Whenever we got hold of information or leaks we usually verified the information thoroughly, compared it to info we had from some other sources and decided whether it was worth publishing something about it. That's the most important part, seeing if a story is worth it or not.
As a sum-up, yeah, leaks suck. But a multi-billion dollar corporation should at least have a backup plan in case of a leak. The gaming industry is obsessed with hype-marketing (big reveals and teases, and obsessive amount of secrecy) and it's not really healthy, neither for them, neither for the consumer. And finally, no, leaks are not goddamn spoilers. They're mostly titles.
Here's my take as a former journalist: again, not game-related, but the most important things for a journalist are his sources. Whenever we got hold of information or leaks we usually verified the information thoroughly, compared it to info we had from some other sources and decided whether it was worth publishing something about it. That's the most important part, seeing if a story is worth it or not.
As a sum-up, yeah, leaks suck. But a multi-billion dollar corporation should at least have a backup plan in case of a leak. The gaming industry is obsessed with hype-marketing (big reveals and teases, and obsessive amount of secrecy) and it's not really healthy, neither for them, neither for the consumer. And finally, no, leaks are not goddamn spoilers. They're mostly titles.
Definitely. When the leak first happened with Elden Ring (just to take one example), that itself was also a surprise, no doubt. The only difference, as far as i can see, is that the excitement around the day/event itself might not turn out to be as excited as initially hoped. So we can say that it might not be that much about the surprises in themself, but rather that it takes away some of the excitement one first had for an event (and the reason for that is that theres less surprises that they've hoped for at that event). For me, its not that important, but i get why others people this way, and i think thats fair enough.
Its an individual thing in the end. Some people might be just as excited to see a Twitter post with all the upcoming e.g Nintendo games, while others prefer to watch a Nintendo Direct to learn about brand new game announcements there. Some people might prefer to have announcement more spread out over a period of time, while others might prefer to have a lot of announcements at one time. And the guy i first quoted said that he/she was more excited for E3 after learning about these leaks. So people feel different about it :)
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Why is changing if it is one day or another day...? I don't understand. A surprise is a surprise.
There's just a disturbing lack of empathy I'm noticing more and more lately, either with the site itself or with people in general I'm not 100% sure on. Equating a hobby we're all posting on a video game message forum about to a new women's razor, for fuck's sakes...
I like E3 Reactions videos on Youtube and those are "ruined" by an early leak. No one is recording themselves reading about a leak
If reactions are so important and/or enjoyable maybe they should...?
Doesn't amplifying it give it a credence few others could? He helps it along if nothing else.
I don't get it either I guess it is generation thing:
My grandparents it was alcohol
Then weed was in
My generation coke was the big thing
Then came crystal meths
I guess Crystal meth is out and the next big thing is watching unspoiled trade show presentations for announcements of new products
Seriously can somebody explain this as I don't get it, its just a new product presentation. I have sat though loads of these and they are all dull
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The very idea that the announcement of a trailer/video game is fucking spoiler is mindblowing to me.
You are actually getting mad over a fucking video game AD A FUCKING VIDEO GAME AD being 'spoiled'.
Holy shit people get a grip. Not to mention most of the games were just CG trailers that told you absolutely fucking nothing about the games.
You are actually getting mad over a fucking video game AD A FUCKING VIDEO GAME AD being 'spoiled'.
Holy shit people get a grip. Not to mention most of the games were just CG trailers that told you absolutely fucking nothing about the games.
Not sure why you're trying to take some high ground when you're seriously here trying to question people's empathy (even more ridiculous) because some people don't give a damn if a game title gets leaked. I find that to be the most obnoxious argument in the thread. Ultimately, the majority of posters here are talking about people who act like E3 is ruined or spoiled because they found out a game title, not troubled youths in need. No one should have to feign empathy over this matter of all things.
By all means be surprised. That's totally fine. But you also have to stay off sites that's publish leaks. They always happen. It's not on everyone else to protect you from that.
I watch reaction videos too, YouTubers and stuffs, but I don't care if some game gets leaked. I think people should give the right weight to such things.
I guess it comes down to expectations, and the feeling of getting less excited for an event might to some degree overshadow the feeling of getting surprised by reading about a leak on Twitter or a forum etc.. Some people might feel that its more exciting to "save up" all the suprises for that particular day, and prefer to look forward to that. The events themself can be described as being a form of entertainment, and many prefer to go in "blind", basically not knowing anything in advance, similar to going in "blind" watching a movie or playing a game (we can discuss that there are some differences here, and there are, but some people simply prefer to go in with as little information as possible to something that they look forward seeing).
Seeing an event and reading about it are also two different eviorments, which can also maybe be a factor to it. I remember when Nintendo went from live shows to pre-recorded ones, and some people were getting disappointed by that because they prefered a live show with different type of reactions, something that a pre-recorded presentation wouldnt provide in the exact same way. In the end, both a live show and a pre-recorded one gives announcements, but everyone doesnt feel that its the exact same thing.
If one is only interested in getting the announcements and nothing else, then it wont be much of a difference, i agree.
EDIT: I added some text.
This might also be a factor, yeah. Unless people record themself all the time while browsing the internet, they wont be able to capture the initial reaction.
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