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ThatPersonGuy

Member
Dec 30, 2018
195
I don't think that "corporate pushed spoiler culture is asinine" and "leaks can and often do hurt projects" are mutually exclusive ideas. I won't cry myself to sleep at night over this month's Corocoro scans spoiling parts of Pokemon Sword and Shield, but yeah, marketing is really important and a piss poor or uncontrolled reveal can do terrible things for a game's PR. I think being invested in Smash Bros Newcomer culture online since... jesus, since 2012 has kinda taught me this over and over again firsthand: great execution can make up for seemingly piss poor ideas, so when a leak just drops a name or a title or a hastily written sentence it can do a lot to sour an audience on what might be something really kickass that just needs a better tagline for it.

But at the end of the day "fans", the consumers, really don't get anything out of this obsessive devotion to spoiler culture. I could write paragraphs about how it hurts storytelling when big reveals and huge twists are prioritized in spoiler culture, but with regards to stuff like E3 I just straight up don't think there's much point in the secrecy that some games are hidden in. It doesn't hurt that some companies announce games waaaaay too early and go for months if not years on pure silence. All that secrecy does is build up hype and allow for unfettered expectations. We talk about sky-high expectations like they're something weirdo fanboys do on Reddit and not a deliberate marketing strategy, as if countless stinker titles have not been sold entirely on abusing the vagary of promises and veils of silence to mask glaring developmental issues.
 

Polioliolio

Member
Nov 6, 2017
5,396
It's fun to watch it as it unfolds. I don't buy most of these games anyway and am pretty distant in general from modern gaming, but I love to watch the conferences and the announcements. It's fun. I'm not being duped by corporate culture, it's just fun for me.
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
That's not true at all and you know it. Details change, things change. Where does it end then?

Should we be privy to anything and everything that happens behind closed doors at Sony, MS, and Nintendo?
News. Cannot. Be. Spoiled.

It's not a spoiler to know that a Black Widow or Akita film is in the works. It's not a spoiler to know that Horizon Zero Dawn 2 is in the works. Knowing that a game, film or book exists is not a spoiler.
 

UltimateHigh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,500
personally, the surprise means nothing to me, i just wanna see some cool games and gameplay (like from halo, the gameplay I've been waiting for), and hopefully the crunch to get this all put together wasn't too stressful or you know, fucked.
 

carlosrox

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,270
Vancouver BC
News. Cannot. Be. Spoiled.

It's not a spoiler to know that a Black Widow or Akita film is in the works. It's not a spoiler to know that Horizon Zero Dawn 2 is in the works. Knowing that a game, film or book exists is not a spoiler.

Context matters.

If they have a show dedicated towards said announcement and some 4chan fuck just drops the news then yes that event was spoiled.

What is so hard to grasp about this?
 

Burrman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,633
We may need to have a serious talk about lack of reading comprehension
If you see a game before the dev gets to present it themselves, I'm pretty sure they or us could consider it a spoiler. Nobody should tell anyone how they should enjoy something. Or what's unhealthy for them when it comes to how they enjoy game announcements.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,256
Context matters.

If they have a show dedicated towards said announcement and some 4chan fuck just drops the news then yes that event was spoiled.

What is so hard to grasp about this?

In this particular scenario, which, again, is about the Bamco leaks, I imagine a lot of folks will tune in to see the actual trailers.
 

carlosrox

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,270
Vancouver BC
It's not spoiler because once it's out there, it's news.

So Mario + Rabbids wasn't leaked, it was just a hot scoop someone got. Ahhhh.

Again, this isn't just about the spoilers, it's also about disrespectful as fuck behavior like leaking something you're not supposed to, killing a good surprise for people and taking a shit on the morale of a dev team.
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,537
www.resetera.com

Reached my fucking breaking point. We need to talk about Spoiler-Phobia

Before I we get into this we need to define what is a spoiler. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_(media) For those who haven't been following lead up to the release of of the highly anticipated film Avengers: Endgame, reviews for it appeared after the review embargo lifted and they were...

I made a thread about spoilerphobia in OT and got a lot of push back for it.

Its become such a fucking problem.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,596
Almost 50 pages, but still not sure why.

Maybe the whole tweet thread could be added some where on first page?

I will cop to the fact I thought it was an article on Kotkau at first. That coloured my initial reaction but not my first and only (not including this one) post in here.

E3 bringing out the worst of forum behaviour/arguments and bad faith games discussions is something that should not overshadow the hard work that all involved are putting in this time of year.

Schreier is right, Twitter is found wanting for this stuff. I stand by my original point, E3 reveals are not for us.
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
Again, this isn't just about the spoilers, it's also about disrespectful as fuck behavior like leaking something you're not supposed to, killing a good surprise for people and taking a shit on the morale of a dev team.
I can think different factors that can change morale of a dev team more than whether or not a game is confirmed as existing or not such as vacation time, crunch time, how their employers treat them, sick time, adequate pay, how many hours they work, etc.. You guys keep bringing up developers, but what about the voice actors who can't even mention the games they are working on in order to secure more work? Fuck them, I guess.

If you care about being surprised then get off of the internet or change your consumption habits because it's not going to change.
 

RPGam3r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,464
www.resetera.com

Reached my fucking breaking point. We need to talk about Spoiler-Phobia

Before I we get into this we need to define what is a spoiler. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_(media) For those who haven't been following lead up to the release of of the highly anticipated film Avengers: Endgame, reviews for it appeared after the review embargo lifted and they were...

I made a thread about spoilerphobia in OT and got a lot of push back for it.

Its become such a fucking problem.

Again not all spoilers are the same. For people who treat the E3 conferences as entertainment a leak is a spoiler for the event. I'm personally more against spoiling events like these with their announcement trailers than the actual content of the games I play.
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,782
I can think different factors that can change morale of a dev team more than whether or not a game is confirmed as existing or not such as vacation time, crunch time, how their employers treat them, sick time, adequate pay, how many hours they work, etc.. You guys keep bringing up developers, but what about the voice actors who can't even mention the games they are working on in order to secure more work? Fuck them, I guess.

If you care about being surprised then get off of the internet or change your consumption habits because it's not going to change.
We can care about more than one thing. Leaking the games we spend years working on is just another brick on the pile and unlike those other problems, this is a problems people like you embrace
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
We can care about more than one thing. Leaking the games we spend years working on is just another brick on the pile and unlike those other problems, this is a problems people like you embrace
Is it really a problem? Like what's the actual damage there? How is knowing the existence of a game before an official announcement hurting devs?
 

noyram23

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,372
In the end though why not just let the devs properly unveil it? It doesn't matter if people learn it early, well it matters to the site due to clicks, it's a lot better if it's left as a surprises and as planned as devs intended to.
 

RPGam3r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,464
I can think different factors that can change morale of a dev team more than whether or not a game is confirmed as existing or not such as vacation time, crunch time, how their employers treat them, sick time, adequate pay, how many hours they work, etc.. You guys keep bringing up developers, but what about the voice actors who can't even mention the games they are working on in order to secure more work? Fuck them, I guess.

If you care about being surprised then get off of the internet or change your consumption habits because it's not going to change.

Holy whataboutism Batman!
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
I can think different factors that can change morale of a dev team more than whether or not a game is confirmed as existing or not such as vacation time, crunch time, how their employers treat them, sick time, adequate pay, how many hours they work, etc.. You guys keep bringing up developers, but what about the voice actors who can't even mention the games they are working on in order to secure more work? Fuck them, I guess.

If you care about being surprised then get off of the internet or change your consumption habits because it's not going to change.

Doesn't want to see any spoilers but spoils content for themselves by frequenting websites that specifically are known to leak info
"Why did you spoil this for me?"
Who-Killed-Hannibal.jpg
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,782
Is it really a problem? Like what's the actual damage there? How is knowing the existence of a game hurting devs?
Yes its a problem
- Completely demoralizes a teams hard work who are working up to that first reveal on the big stage to be reduced to a tweet or a leaked bad quality soundless trailer being the communities first impression. as a first impression context is everything. look at Mario + rabbids, the game was torn to shreds from its leaked description and the studio and team where gutted, questioning everything they spent the past years making while in reality they had nothing to fear.
- Leakers cause massive financial damages and professional mistrust within studios resulting in cancellation in the worst case and missing market impact. you might think it will be a small thing but depending on the leak it can cause financial damage in the 7 figure range.
- Hunting leakers at a company is a thing which causes incredibly toxic behavior within development studios reducing trust in each other and having the feeling you and your team have been thrown under the buss by a colleague who is/was like family to you.

These are just a few of the problems. have a look at what we have to say about this
www.resetera.com

Game devs of Resetera, how do leaks impact your work?

Thought I might as well ask the devs out there. Lot of back and forth about leaks and how they impact game development and game devs. So devs of Resetera. How do/have leaks impacted your work?

and again not all leaks are the same, but still, even a name drop could spark a lot of discussion and without the actual reveal that provides proper context in the form of a video or a regulated article, already causes raving fans to throw around the wildest ideas and could be shot down or torn apart by the community just by a specific subtitle.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,256
I loled. Tea is hot. Holy fuck.

I leaked the tea.

A Tales game is in development. I repeat: a Tales game is in development.

i mean i guess it is a spoiler that it looks like a game from this generation thanks to the post processing effects

Is it really a problem? Like what's the actual damage there? How is knowing the existence of a game before an official announcement hurting devs?

according to the other thread, the billion dollar corporations that publish games will for some reason screw over development teams

look at Mario + rabbids, the game was torn to shreds from its leaked description and the studio and team where gutted, questioning everything they spent the past years making while in reality they had nothing to fear.

my friend, we get it. the mario + rabbids developers were sad about the negative feedback when the game leaked. this extremely successful game, both commercially and critically, is not that great of an example for The Danger of Leaking, there's no reason to keep coming back to it, especially in the context of how important a first impression is.
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,782
I leaked the tea.



i mean i guess it is a spoiler that it looks like a game from this generation thanks to the post processing effects



according to the other thread, the billion dollar corporations that publish games will for some reason screw over development teams



my friend, we get it. the mario + rabbids developers were sad about the negative feedback when the game leaked. this extremely successful game, both commercially and critically, is not that great of an example for The Danger of Leaking, there's no reason to keep coming back to it, especially in the context of how important a first impression is.
I am out, discussing these things with people like you is incredibly pointless. You have no knowledge of actual development yet you manage to spin everything in your incredibly simpleminded view trying to support your arguments. Good job

And to think people want more transparency from developers.
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
- Completely demoralizes a teams hard work who are working up to that first reveal on the big stage to be reduced to a tweet or a leaked bad quality soundless trailer being the communities first impression. as a first impression context is everything. look at Mario + rabbids, the game was torn to shreds from its leaked description and the studio and team where gutted, questioning everything they spent the past years making while in reality they had nothing to fear.
- Leakers cause massive financial damages and professional mistrust within studios resulting in cancellation in the worst case and missing market impact. you might think it will be a small thing but depending on the leak it can cause financial damage in the 7 figure range.
- Hunting leakers at a company is a thing which causes incredibly toxic behavior within development studios reducing trust in each other and having the feeling you and your team have been thrown under the buss by a colleague who is/was like family to you.
The last two are systemic issues that plagues the industry as Tfritz pointed out.

The first issue, it sucks, but I see first reveal as different from first knowledge. Like I know that Black Widow is being made, but I still look forward to see its first official images and trailers (even if I watch a leaked one). Knowing that a game exist doesn't detract from the reveal which is best exemplified by this thread as many people keep giving examples of games that had awesome reveals, but had been leaked well before the official reveal.

I think it all should be treated like movies and tv shows. Announce the game and then do a trailer down the round.
 

RPGam3r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,464
The last two are systemic issues that plagues the industry as Tfritz pointed out.

The first issue, it sucks, but I see first reveal as different from first knowledge. Like I know that Black Widow is being made, but I still look forward to see its first official images and trailers (even if I watch a leaked one). Knowing that a game exist doesn't detract from the reveal which is best exemplified by this thread as many people keep giving examples of games that had awesome reveals, but had been leaked well before the official reveal.

I think it all should be treated like movies and tv shows. Announce the game and then do a trailer down the round.

Games are not like movies/tv shows. How many times does this need to be said? Apparently the answer is never enough bc some of y'all just don't get it or intentionally ignore it bc it goes against your point of view. Don't both pretending you care about devs if you don't want to listen to them.
 

Deleted member 896

User Requested Account Deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,353
Games are not like movies/tv shows. How many times does this need to be said? Apparently the answer is never enough bc some of y'all just don't get it or intentionally ignore it bc it goes against your point of view. Don't both pretending you care about devs if you don't want to listen to them.

One problem I'm having is that most of the dev accounts I'm seeing are rather vague and non-specific. Now, that might be because of necessity as knowledge of the specifics is proprietary information such that revealing it would make them leakers themselves. But the accounts I'm reading mostly seem to be reliant on showing deference to the fact that they're the ones who deal with it so we should just trust them.

And I mean, that's fine to some degree. I really am not seeking an adversarial relationship with anyone and have no desire to pretend I know more than anyone about what goes on in game development given that I don't work in that industry. But at the same time I'm not really sure everyone is even on the same page in terms of the nature of leaks we are talking about. And by that I just mean that it seems like there's a world of difference between leaking that this game that's going to be announced in 24 hours is in fact being developed and leaking shaky information where I know a guy who knows a guy who says that this game that's in a state of flux right now is in development and the information I'm conveying is accurate enough to pass muster in the more credible news circuit rumor mills but also missing important context that may prove detrimental to the game's official plans.
 

AdrianG4

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
565
i am worried about how much of this extremely sudden aboutface on industry leaks is genuinely about the developers feelings or actually just an evolution of spoiler culture
 

carlosrox

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,270
Vancouver BC
Games are not like movies/tv shows. How many times does this need to be said? Apparently the answer is never enough bc some of y'all just don't get it or intentionally ignore it bc it goes against your point of view. Don't both pretending you care about devs if you don't want to listen to them.

Seriously. It's like talking to a brick wall.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,308
People bought tickets to Enemy of the State back in the day specifically to see the Phantom menace trailer, so this ain't new. We want to be wowed by something to look forward to.

Y'all too jaded.
That's funny considering Enemy of the State is a great movie and Phantom Menace is kinda crap
 

AgonyRon

Member
Nov 27, 2017
687
It's two ways. I like to be surprised at E3. But as a writer of a Dutch Gaming website I must say that E3 scoops always give way more traffic then 'normal days'. It the best gaming time for gamers, developers AND journalists.
 

Souzetsu

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
488
California
I'm seeing a lot of poster complaining about different things, some of which didn't happen. For instance, people are mad about Jason posting about the Namco-Bandai leaks like he was the cause of them when in fact he was not. He merely reported them. And what worries me is that people are still mad that he reported on them, when you know there is a very good chance you would've seen threads posted about it here on ERA or on social media. Why are people so angry about Jason posting this on Kotaku when you know every site is going to be mentioning it with no spoiler warnings? Because he making money from his job? I think that's what has him worried. Him simply performing his job can cause consumers to be outraged, and for what? Because they want to be surprised that something is merely being made? That can definitely be seen as unhealthy.

But the main thing I'm seeing is that people think Jason doesn't care about leaks causing damage or that leaks should just be spread freely, which if you look at his body of work you know is completely false. He knows that developers like to keep secrets to surprise their audiences, but some secrets to cause problems like with crunch and harassment in the workplace. And some of the leaks he has provided were to be informative in regards to people's expectations or developer working conditions. Fallout 76 being leaked as an online multiplayer game is definitely informative and tempers people's expectations before it gets revealed. It probably saved Todd and Bethesda a lot of grief in my opinion. Ask yourself: how would things have turned out for Blizzard if it was leaked ahead of time that the next Diablo game was going to be a mobile game and that a mainline game was still in the pipeline? Do you think a lack of secrecy would've been better in this situation?
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Also ironic that the phantom menace trailer is being used as an example of non leaks when the only reason people knew to go see it was because of the knowledge about it ahead of time.
 

Captain of Outer Space

Come Sale Away With Me
Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,311
The movie/TV show industry comparison is weird since the leaks don't guarantee anything about those rumored projects ever happening. Look at how many video game IP that were licensed for movie studios to work on that never got being that announcement or leak and you can see why most of those leaks and such are kind of nothing stories where they're nowhere close to an actual movie being made. That was the weird thing about that Knights of the Old Republic movie leak, which is just getting a script written by a random writer. It could easily die so that we never hear of it again. Maybe it's interesting to see how much studios throw shit at the wall to see what sticks, but I tend to tune most of it out.

It would be like if we had leaks about developers prototyping ideas for a game at the earliest stages, which is not really interesting at all when they're just brainstorming ideas. That stuff doesn't really get interesting until way later when a developer can show ideas they pursued for a bit before abandoning it and offer context for it that adds to the overall picture of that developer's history like Insomniac's Girl with a Stick prototype, those Infamous prototype videos where they thought out having Cole ride a motorcycle or skate on a manhole cover, or that Saint's Row PSP prototype that Volition put out there.
 

Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,835
If a game is set to be announced and someone still leaks it, that's very shitty

If a game is still in early stages or has been shelved, then leaking is fine imo
 

Deleted member 6730

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,526
Confirming something exists isn't a spoiler. It just isn't. And this kind of thinking is why spoiler culture is so dumb. They're diluting the idea of what is or isn't spoiler. Nobody's out there shouting out late-game plot points or anything, they're confirming a game that's going to be announced a week beforehand. And while I can see how devs can be disappointed... who cares? Did God of War being leaked take away its critical acclaim and sales. Hell did it even ruin the official E3 reveal (often considered amazing). The answer is no. This shit does not matter in the grand scheme of things.

And even then do you guys read literally any other news but video game news? Leaks happen all the time. Nobody hears about the next Marvel movie from a big Marvel press conference. Nobody hears about the next iPhone from Apple's events. No, they hear about from some website reporting on it and then move on. It's normal and there's nothing wrong with it. Nobody's less excited that something's leaked ahead of time.

If anything this is just another shitty part about gaming culture. Everything has to be this over hyped event and the greatest moment in history. I don't blame anyone for thinking that it's a spoiler because the industry built itself into this corner where every little mundane announcement has to have fireworks attatched or else its ruined. And quite frankly I'm tired of that. Keeping secrets like that is toxic not just to gamers, but to game developers as well. And the fact we keep playing along with this annoying at best and disgusting at worse. Who in the hell should care if something gets leaked?

Seriously if you continue to treat leaks as "spoilers", grow up. I know that sounds antagonistic, but we shouldn't be even having this conversation in the first place. Just because the secret of a magic trick is revealed doesn't change anything and nobody should complain about it unless they're a kid.
 

ToTheMoon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,324
This is not just about people complaining about spoilers. This is a journalist telling devs it's not a big deal if you don't get to present your game the way you want.

Yeah, this "DAE SPOILER CULTURE HAS GONE TOO FAR??" red herring is really obnoxious. Glad we have the other thread for people who are actually in the industry to talk about their experiences.

Ask yourself: how would things have turned out for Blizzard if it was leaked ahead of time that the next Diablo game was going to be a mobile game and that a mainline game was still in the pipeline? Do you think a lack of secrecy would've been better in this situation

I'm not sure if it would be better or not, but I imagine that Blizzard's employees would rather be in control of their own destiny rather than having random journalists announce their games for them.

Like there were obviously a lot of mistakes with Diablo: Immortal, but I don't think that means that Blizzard would ever want other people to control their game announcements (including the leaks about Diablo 4, OW2, the Starcraft FPS, etc.)