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Adamska

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,042
It's perfectly understandable for the people who worked on creating a surprise to be upset it leaked. It's not understandable that people who wanted to be surprised has said surprise "spoiled" for them to be upset, you can take steps to avoid all of that easily.
 

Tzarscream

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,945
Corporate propoganda is still corporate propaganda no matter whether it's done by 1 person or 1,000 people. Size doesn't matter here.
I cannot believe I am still arguing with you....

However I'll bite one last time, please explain to me how Kotaku reporting a leak is corporate propaganda?

And don't say because Kotaku get clicks and we see their advertisers, that's a completely different discussion on revenue models and how you can sustainably run a website in 2019. Kotaku doing corporate propaganda would be to run expensive trailers promoting their journalists over everybody else. It's not the same thing.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,271
I cannot believe I am still arguing with you....

However I'll bite one last time, please explain to me how Kotaku reporting a leak is corporate propaganda?

And don't say because Kotaku get clicks and we see their advertisers, that's a completely different discussion on revenue models and how you can sustainably run a website in 2019. Kotaku doing corporate propaganda would be to run expensive trailers promoting their journalists over everybody else. It's not the same thing.

Kotaku reporting a leak isn't corporate propoganda

Kotaku saying "yeah fuck E3 announcements and screw developers, leaks are awesome!" whilst simultaneously hosting leaks on their website is.
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,782
The secrecy in the game industry needs to end. Its realy realy stupid. Theres a lot of open secrets like what Bkizzard is doing. Its been reported on and they still dont say a word that they are working on those titles. We know which movies Disney is producing until 2027!
Look at Death stranding. we had a Trailer before they even started production and people have been on and on complaining that its taking so long. Games take 3 to 4 times as long to make as a movie and gamers are super impatient. That's why you see reveal trailers one year before the game comes out (most of the time) and before that its a secret for good reasons because our attention spans only last that long.

Tie this into making games to be way harder than making movies, where when making a game you have no clue how the game is until you are at the last few months of development and everything suddenly clicks together. Movies are a linear process. you have a script, a story board, you shoot the scenes, then you edit the scenes together with music and effects to enhance the shots and in the end you have that A to B experience for an hour and a half.

With games you have a core concept of the type of game you want to make. you write a story (or not) that you think enhances that game play, but game play in its rough form (prototype) might have all the ingredients but only until you have the art, the story, the characters the music, effects etc.. only until those things are in place you get a sense of.. yes this works.

The god of war reveal was a great moment since even when you assumed it was god of war and there where rumors, but to have kratos appear from the shadows and after that dive straight into gameplay was a great E3 moment. Those reactions to a live reveal are huge huuuuuge motivators to the team back home where all their years of doubt are confirmed to pay off and now they need to make the promise work for the final product.

I want to see the live reaction of a trailer, not have it leaked days before from some shitty off cam shot (Bleeding Edge for example) with shitty sound quality or no sound at all.

Game developers craft their experience to the player from the earliest game reveal until you complete the game. These teams spend years and years crafting this narrative to the player ONTOP of actually making a game, and it should not be ruined by others who for them it takes no effort than to type a few words, be this leaks or spoilers.
 
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Min

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,068
Trailers arent just made by corporations. It could also be made by a developer which only has like 3 people for example.

Indie devs are typically announcing games way in advance and constantly showing off work to peers at conferences, game shows, and on social media before official announcement. I knew of Hollow Knight years before release because of a gif on reddit. Cuphead had a 1 second sizzle reel reveal at E3 buried in a deluge of 100 other indie games. It's still marketing. But the AAA industries are the ones that are spending millions on the trailers and surrounding theatrics, they're going to be the most vocal and manipulative in telling you to hate yourself for not viewing the trailer in their controlled environment.
 

Kcannon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,661
Or you know, reporter could just decide "fuck it" and not report on alleged leak on e.g. upcoming E3 reveal.

In this case Jason decided to report on the leaks because why not, generates traffic. He also has said in past that he has chosen to not investigate and reports leaks reported to him by sources because he doesn't want hurt devs by revealing their work.

From what you're describing, it sounds like he refused to report on a leak when it was still a private matter. Insiders do this all the time, keeping information vague and not elaborating too much on it.

For all intents and purposes, the leaks we've seen so far have been made public anyway. He can't really deny the leaked announcements because the websites and trailers are out there. It wasn't his or any journalist's fault, and they kinda have no choice but to report on the now public information.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,544
It's perfectly understandable for the people who worked on creating a surprise to be upset it leaked. It's not understandable that people who wanted to be surprised has said surprise "spoiled" for them to be upset, you can take steps to avoid all of that easily.

So basically, people are wrong for liking something that you dont like?
 

Flavius

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,314
Orlando, FL
Eh, we are over 1200 responses in here so way late to the party, but the thread title could have been a bit more accurate and less incendiary. We might have gotten better and thoughtful discussion here, instead of so many gut reactions to a handful of words taken out of context.

My take is too many people seem to be too close to this to be able to understand the point Jason's making. Developers likely sacrifice hours and hours of their time and struggle with balance and health to create the games being announced. Fans love to fan and be surprised.

Doesn't make what he's saying wrong, though.
 

Dalcop

Member
Nov 28, 2017
347
It's not contradictory and there was no aggressive disdain in my post. Rather, a reflection on the absurdity of what it means to have a desire to be marketed to under ideal circumstances. I don't know if leaking is ok or not, but I'm not addressing that.
If it's absurd and there's no merit in experiencing something as it was intended, why should you care about developers not being able to share things on their own terms? There's no merit.
 

Leviathan

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,065
Going to disagree with this one and suggest that it is perfectly reasonable to want the full impact of an exciting announcement. I am thrilled whenever something I love or care about is on its way and, sales tactic or not, it's exciting for me when that's played up for maximum hype. like most people here, my life is boring, and I enjoy those little moments where it's slightly less so.

I like a good announcement and I think he's being either a little desperate or a little disingenuous in presenting this the way he did. His bias is way too obvious here.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
Even if they didn't crunch, they were ready Sunday and some mother fucker still leaked it.
Sure, but my point is more that even if it didn't leak, the surprise isn't worth the amount of work they put into these things, often unpaid overtime, as is the norm in this industry.

This is a much bigger cause for concern than whether or not the surprise is ruined, in my opinion. If we're to think about the hard working devs, then it's all the more reason to chill out on the secrecy.
 

Nintendo

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,366
It's perfectly understandable for the people who worked on creating a surprise to be upset it leaked. It's not understandable that people who wanted to be surprised has said surprise "spoiled" for them to be upset, you can take steps to avoid all of that easily.

What steps I can take to avoid leaks easily?
 
Nov 14, 2017
549
Shut up Jason, you don't have a say in how I like to experience e3, and yes, leaking the announcements before the event is a douchebag move for both developers and fans who were looking forward to this time of the year, and the surprises are a big part of it.

I would not tell him to shut up, but his tweet is nonsense. You have no right to leak someone else game. Worse the leaked Ninja theory game with a video of bad quality.

And why are you leaking two days before a conference- you can not wait or just someone in the press trying to ruin Microsoft conference?
 

Ciao

Member
Jun 14, 2018
4,839
Meh, not with Jason on this one. Hype and speculation is better than no surprise for me. I enjoy talking about potential games and what they would look like, it's part of the hobby.
 

TheMango55

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
5,788
I see a lot of "leaks are good because marketing is done by corporations that don't care about you."

But people reporting leaks are generally part of corporations too.

Does Gizmodo Media Inc (owner of Kotaku) or CBS Interactive (Owner of Gamespot) care more about me than Devolver Digital?
 

Min

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,068
I wonder why this kind if thread didn't exist before. Never seen people being this anti-leak before.

PR cultivation. It might have taken awhile but corporate messaging has helped lead to the current ideological climate and "gamers" identity and entitlement; they encourage it. We've seen this in opioid marketing. We've seen this is the multi-million dollar anti-science campaigns lead by oil executives which leads to the prevalence of climate change denialism.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,060
Just to be clear, all these people are "wrong" for enjoying this?


They shouldn't be happy, somebody should have walked into that theater 5 minutes before that show started and screamed "Last Guardian, Shenmue 3, and Final Fantasy VII remake are getting announced, go home you corporate shills".

Why are you telling people what they should and shouldn't enjoy?
I'm not telling you want to enjoy, calm down. I'm saying the concept of it is absurd. You can still enjoy it if you want to.
 

Tzarscream

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,945
I see a lot of "leaks are good because marketing is done by corporations that don't care about you."

But people reporting leaks are generally part of corporations too.

Does Gizmodo Media Inc (owner of Kotaku) or CBS Interactive (Owner of Giant Bomb) care more about me than Devolver Digital?
I'll not be so crass as to post the picture of the "But you also participate in society, I am very intelligent" webcomic.


But, you know.....
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
The problem is, leaks are gonna happen regardless so I'm not sure what some of you are even arguing. Your options are literally just get over this "it's like Christmas to me" mindset or avoid enthusiast sites the week before.
 

test_account

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,645
gotta be pretty awkward in the office when a 3 person studio has their marketing material leaked
Lol. I just mean in regards to trailers in general, not just leaked ones :)


Indie devs are typically announcing games way in advance and constantly showing off work to peers at conferences, game shows, and on social media before official announcement. I knew of Hollow Knight years before release because of a gif on reddit. Cuphead had a 1 second sizzle reel reveal at E3 buried in a deluge of 100 other indie games. It's still marketing. But the AAA industries are the ones that are spending millions on the trailers and surrounding theatrics, they're going to be the most vocal and manipulative in telling you to hate yourself for not viewing the trailer in their controlled environment.
Sorry if i missed some point, but i thought it was just about trailers in general? Every trailer is made in a way to make the game (or what ever product it might be) look as interesting as possible. Its not just corporations that has this goal with a trailer.

What would viewing a trailer in a controlled enviorment be like by the way? A lot of people will view the E3 trailers on Youtube or elsewhere, even after E3 is over. Why would anyone hate themself for watching it somewhere else? Isnt the whole issue here that people want to be surprised at events like E3? Not where people watch a trailer?
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,544
And don't go to YouTube or any social media website or app. That's "easily"?? LMAO it's impossible to avoid leaks.

He's also pretending like leaks are exclusively happening the week before E3, and not a year round thing. He's essentially telling us to stop using the internet rather than telling people to stop breaking NDAs.
 

Kcannon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,661
Kotaku reporting a leak isn't corporate propoganda

Kotaku saying "yeah fuck E3 announcements and screw developers, leaks are awesome!" whilst simultaneously hosting leaks on their website is.

The announcements have been made public by non-journalistic sources. In this case, whole websites that had their security breached. What are they supposed to do?

A game journalism website can't just close their ears and go "lalalala", pretending they don't exist, especially because there's no more NDA to uphold. The company and their devs were already hurt to begin with, fault of a careless external partner or irresponsible dev.
 

ViewtifulJC

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,020
I've never got into the spoiler thing. Like knowing a game exists is a spoiler...the fuck. Why is everything in the video game industry a goddamn secret? And why do we let them get away with that? We don't know sales, what games are being made, when they're coming out. In the movie industry, I knew Wes Anderson's The French Dispatch was coming out in 2020 waaaay back in 2018. I can tell you who's in it, and where the filming locations are. And after it comes out, I can tell you to the single dollars how much it made at the box office. And its going to effect my enjoyment of the product not one goddamn bit.
 

Deleted member 176

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
37,160
Just to be clear, all these people are "wrong" for enjoying this?


They shouldn't be happy, somebody should have walked into that theater 5 minutes before that show started and screamed "Last Guardian, Shenmue 3, and Final Fantasy VII remake are getting announced, go home you corporate shills".

Why are you telling people what they should and shouldn't enjoy?
last guardian was leaked 🤔
 

Flavius

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,314
Orlando, FL
PR cultivation. It might have taken awhile but corporate messaging has helped lead to the current ideological climate and "gamers" identity and entitlement; they encourage it. We've seen this in opioid marketing. We've seen this is the multi-million dollar anti-science campaigns lead by oil executives which leads to the prevalence of climate change denialism.

Pretty much. Yep.
 

Tovarisc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,396
FIN
He'd be a dreadful journalist if he did that.

Then he must be dreadful journalist as he has chosen not to publish leaks given to him.

From what you're describing, it sounds like he refused to report on a leak when it was still a private matter. Insiders do this all the time, keeping information vague and not elaborating too much on it.

For all intents and purposes, the leaks we've seen so far have been made public anyway. He can't really deny the leaked announcements because the websites and trailers are out there. It wasn't his or any journalist's fault, and they kinda have no choice but to report on the now public information.

This logic doesn't really track with me or can you link me to e.g. Elden Ring's official website? I couldn't find one. All of these announcements and WIP projects are "private matters" until someone wanting to show off being in the know leaks it to reporter who then publishes leak.

Saying that leaks aren't bad because all they hurt is corporate creed and poisonous spoiler culture is little bit funny when in past Jason has stated he is selective about what to report as he doesn't want publish everything.
 

Tzarscream

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,945
Good because that would be irrelevant.

Marketing drives business for one group of corporations and leaks drive business for another. Why is one better than the other?
Because it's a totally different issues, apples and oranges, again, if there's an E3 equivalent for Kotaku and Jason S starts hosting a press conference delivering world exclusives on their upcoming articles and highlight reels then you may have a point.
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,952
I know that it's his/Kotaku's job to report on stuff. That's how they put bread on the table., and if they didn't do it then someone else would.

However...

1. This thread is about Jason's tweet, where he defends leaks and implies that not leaking stuff is bad. That's pretty clear support for leaks with no regard of the feelings for devs.
2. He's leaked stuff multiple times in the past, including multiple upcoming things from Blizzard in the last week.
1. No he implies considering leaks as spoilers and attacking sites that report on them is bad.
2. Diablo 4 isn't a new leak (though I think Jason leaked it last year) and it and Overwatch 2 weren't leaked to steal the impending reveal from the devs, they where part of a much bigger story about Blizzard cancelling more of their games, 1 they spent 2 years on, was more of a "it's not all doom and gloom, the reason why was X and Y" do people have a problem with that now too?
 
Oct 30, 2017
15,278
It's important leaks don't happen so I don't lose out on the opportunity of posting "wow" and "omg it's happening!" in every announcement thread during E3.
 

Ænima

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,513
Portugal
Surprise releals is what makes E3 and other big videogame conferences interesting. But you can still reveal hype trailer at E3 and other conferences while announcing the project earlier.
 

Nintendo

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,366
He's also pretending like leaks are exclusively happening the week before E3, and not a year round thing. He's essentially telling us to stop using the internet rather than telling people to stop breaking NDAs.

Yeah, if leaks only happen during the E3 week or so, it's easier to avoid, but not using the internet all year round is ridiculous.
And he actually did say stop using the internet lol!
Yes. Don't go to YT or FB or whatever you use.

You have the freedom to choose. Noone forces you to go on the Internet.
 
Dec 3, 2018
723
I just can't get excited for an announcement of a game that is years away and the fact they treat an announcement as some huge deal on stage is quite sad. It's why I found the Sony announcements people were screaming about on YouTube a few years ago barely worth my time.
 

fepeinado

Circumventing a ban with an alt account
Banned
Feb 5, 2019
536
Funny, I posted something similar to this a week or so ago and got 20+ people quoting me telling me that I was wrong.
We are in a somewhat closed and narrow minded culture. Basically, if you say anything that hurts what is perceived as the industry, people will come down on you.
But I think we are on something here
 

Thatguy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,207
Seattle WA
Games aren't like movies. You can get hit with devastating set backs and delays with games that can literally last years. Movies can get hit by a set back but it's way less common and way less time usually. That said a 3 day leak doesn't hurt that much if you were ready to announce anyways.
 

Kcannon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,661
I see a lot of "leaks are good because marketing is done by corporations that don't care about you."

But people reporting leaks are generally part of corporations too.

Does Gizmodo Media Inc (owner of Kotaku) or CBS Interactive (Owner of Gamespot) care more about me than Devolver Digital?

What a stupid mindset.

Should the press defend corporations because they're also corporations?