Thank you very much that makes a lot of sense. I guess in my head I equated it to cisgender and transgender.
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J.K. Rowling | ContraPoints
- Thread starter Ramathevoice
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Thank you very much that makes a lot of sense. I guess in my head I equated it to cisgender and transgender.
might be my own experience, but like MOST of the time it is either "people are talking specificaly on trans women" or they mention the rest (yes, including the "non binary people are valid" part). Like you can't take what an actor said as gospel =P
I understand the complains about inviting discussions of metaphysics, but it paints a much worst picture to say it is excluding when you literally don't quote the entire thing"
So this has always struck me in the same way that people who say things like: "I would totally sleep with a hot trans person" or "I am not attracted to Asian people." Like, why you going around bragging about how much of an asshole you are. Read the room, shut up.
This makes a ton of sense and I am entirely here for it.
I agree, it's a really strong interview and stands out as an example where the attempts are obvious and counterpoints made clear.
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Yeh it always feels a little tone deaf for sure.
Going to make sure to note beforehand that this isn't to make you feel wrong in how you prefer to identify, just to give context to the position as it's one I share:
Why you should always use "transgender" instead of "transgendered"
It's not just about being polite.
www.vox.com
Trans woman - Wikipedia
Contra didn't even touch on how Robert Galbraith was the name of a gay conversion therapist.
Almost done, but I'm guessing that was Jenny Nicholson doing the mean tweet readings in My Little Pony voices...
Yeah I was wondering what that was about.
Anyhow, great video, very insightful. Just yesterday I was actually thinking to myself "How do people like J.K. Rowling become so hateful and bigoted when they have so much going for them in their life" and this video is a good breakdown of how it might happen.
I got to the end and apparently the voices were done by some AI program that has the MLP voices.
To be fair she only puts out like one video every 3-4 months and the work she puts into them shows. Each one has to be a huge undertaking.
User banned (3 weeks): Antagonizing staff, attempted thread derail
because the fact that she belittles NBs means absolutely nothing to you doesn't mean that doesn't mean anything to me. My sibling is NB, Contra is fucking trash... Even when she might call out something that effects her this time.
Don't worry though! Mods are going to allow your hero worship. They pay good enough lip service to the trans community... When it suits them. (See also the Asian community threads)
Yeh don't do this, people have legitimate criticisms here. You don't have to agree, but don't dismiss like that.
I'm sorry for the hurt your friend went through but Contra has never willingly belittled NB people. Those accusations are based on deliberate misinterpretations of her venting her personal experiences as a trans women, even though she no doubt misspoke often, which may have sound meaner then intended. She's also made it clear that she was unaware of Buck Angel's truscum activism and does regret that part of her "Opulence" video.
Felt this was one of the better videos in some time. I felt it was a good decision to make this about why JK Rowling could think the way she does and use that as a more general examination of how this happens to people.
It was also good to look directly at the viewer, so to speak, and ask them if it isn't ultimately better to focus on trying to devise a politically actionable strategy, rather than stop at seeking validation only.
It was also good to look directly at the viewer, so to speak, and ask them if it isn't ultimately better to focus on trying to devise a politically actionable strategy, rather than stop at seeking validation only.
I loved she playing the music from silence of the lambs in the beginning. I have tried to defend the movie in the past but I think at the end I'm like her, I just like the movie, because it happens to be very good, but it is impossible to not see how it perpetuated that "imaginarium" so to speak about trans/gay people as predators. Even when the movie literally in its text tells us the serial killer has nothing to do with trans people, but the idea of the "deviant" being the villain is just there, and the director knew what he was doing, even if Demme and/or Harris are not transphobes themselves, it is still harmful, it should at least have been treated with more care.
I've always liked her approach of trying to see the other side, or at least explore it. I can't help but agree, when you dehumanize the "villain" you might miss the "villain" growing within. Just because you do this doesn't mean you are "both siding" things, but its really hard to do, as shown how the discourse around her is, which is honestly at this point not rational. There is zero debate to be had.
I've always liked her approach of trying to see the other side, or at least explore it. I can't help but agree, when you dehumanize the "villain" you might miss the "villain" growing within. Just because you do this doesn't mean you are "both siding" things, but its really hard to do, as shown how the discourse around her is, which is honestly at this point not rational. There is zero debate to be had.
We're platforming Contrapoints now? A content creator who is NBphobic and has previously platformed noted transmedicalist Buck Angel?
For those in the thread who mentioned Judith Butler's recent comments - I highly recommend this excellent interview they did with Owen Jones on that topic amongst other things:
For those in the thread who mentioned Judith Butler's recent comments - I highly recommend this excellent interview they did with Owen Jones on that topic amongst other things:
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To expand on why, we are women, we are not transwomen. Kind of like how there are gay men, not gaymen.
Thanks to you as well. As I said upthread a bit, I think I equated it in my mind with cisgender and transgender. I will definitely know better now.
No worries, I wasn't chastising you, just explaining a bit further.
Oh I know! I'd rather be corrected and have something explained than to continue to be hurtful/ignorant out of politeness or whatever. Please always correct me if I make a mistake or get something wrong.
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We need more people like Fiction around, seriously.
That fucking sucked, it hurt a lot of trans and NB people, and I don't think anyone here is excusing that (I'm not at any rate). I'll also echo Watchtower's post that you quoted: it sucks that she's "one of the biggest trans voices on YT", but I don't believe that means we should throw out everything she has to say on any subject, least of all this one. She's not always right, sometimes she's super wrong, but I think she's still got something to bring to the table due to her background, experience and expertise.
That fucking sucked, it hurt a lot of trans and NB people, and I don't think anyone here is excusing that (I'm not at any rate). I'll also echo Watchtower's post that you quoted: it sucks that she's "one of the biggest trans voices on YT", but I don't believe that means we should throw out everything she has to say on any subject, least of all this one. She's not always right, sometimes she's super wrong, but I think she's still got something to bring to the table due to her background, experience and expertise.
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Damn, I really envy Natalie's ability to construct an argument. She lays out the nature of bigotry and unpacks Rowling's transphobia with unparalleled clarity. And as always, her presentation and humor are a complete delight, making even the heaviest subjects accessible.
She's doing an incredible service to people who don't have the expertise or inclination to take a deep dive into sociopolitical issues. There are some damn good talking points about bigotry and trans equality in this video.
She's doing an incredible service to people who don't have the expertise or inclination to take a deep dive into sociopolitical issues. There are some damn good talking points about bigotry and trans equality in this video.
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Enjoyed watching this last night. Always enjoy her videos and generally end up smarter / better as a result.
I did end up newly furious with Amol Rajan for including / praising Rowling's essay in that BBC 'Russell Prize'.
There was a part that Natalie highlighted that was just so ... dripping with condescension and (there must be a word for this) wilful misrepresentation of the nature of trans people.
Even as the most ordinary cis you can imagine it was painful to read, and to see being praised "for the quality of the writing", as Rajan absolved himself of the need to take any stance or study the content of the essay.
Infuriating and cowardly. To divide meaning from the means of expression is to completely dispense with the entire purpose of writing in the first place.
Russell would have vomited.
I'm lodging something about it now as I didn't complain before.
www.bbc.co.uk
I did end up newly furious with Amol Rajan for including / praising Rowling's essay in that BBC 'Russell Prize'.
There was a part that Natalie highlighted that was just so ... dripping with condescension and (there must be a word for this) wilful misrepresentation of the nature of trans people.
Even as the most ordinary cis you can imagine it was painful to read, and to see being praised "for the quality of the writing", as Rajan absolved himself of the need to take any stance or study the content of the essay.
Infuriating and cowardly. To divide meaning from the means of expression is to completely dispense with the entire purpose of writing in the first place.
Russell would have vomited.
I'm lodging something about it now as I didn't complain before.
Make A Complaint | Contact the BBC
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Finally got to the end, watching the last half hour while scrolling on Twitter and realizing that there's currently a discussion in Scotland, of all places, over whether to exclude transphobic speech from the legal definition of hate speech made me profoundly sad.
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She brought up a very good point there, I've personally always wondered why the chant only includes trans women.
What sort of debate would you hope to see at this point? The only exploration seems to be in how one becomes transphobic, but that is often a sideline discussion - one adopted by this video - to the damage she's causing and what the effects of her campaigning have been and continue to be. Which Natalie only briefly dips her toe into.
I think it probably evolved from good intention because of the backlash against trans women specifically from prominent TERFs like JK who were singling out trans women for "stealing their rights and focus" etc...
"How some self professed feminist women becomes virulently transphobic" may be an upper class issue for cishet women in the west, but it's not in some other countries (for example, mine).
A lot of TERFs I know are lower class women having genuine (but untrue and unfounded) fear that trans women are taking their opportunities. The fear is based on social Darwinism no doubt but they're manifesting in different forms.
Coming from my culture perspective I would have to say that it is important to at least hear the other side and
1. use science and facts to counter disingenuous propaganda
2. But more importantly to reach as many hearts as we can. As I've said above a lot of TERFs aren't privileged women and we need to hear them and address their concerns (while we're doing 1)
A lot of TERFs I know are lower class women having genuine (but untrue and unfounded) fear that trans women are taking their opportunities. The fear is based on social Darwinism no doubt but they're manifesting in different forms.
Coming from my culture perspective I would have to say that it is important to at least hear the other side and
1. use science and facts to counter disingenuous propaganda
2. But more importantly to reach as many hearts as we can. As I've said above a lot of TERFs aren't privileged women and we need to hear them and address their concerns (while we're doing 1)
If you watched the video, Natalie points out that Rowling's essay says more about trans men than trans women. I think her alternative "trans liberation" is a lot better, not only is it more inclusive but it's less likely to spiral into semantics about what it means to be a woman, as she pointed out.
I did watch the video, I'm not talking about her essay. I'm talking about her rhetoric and the focus of many TERFS on social media. I simply posited a potential reason why "trans women are women" became prominent.
The point she brought up with that was that transphobia against trans men seems more looked over, maybe it's more covert, I don't know. Either way, maybe it's time to change it to something more inclusive.
I understand that, respectfully that doesn't have anything to do with my point. Again, I was simply attempting to reason why we see one phrase more often.
I'm very glad Nat is getting a bunch of cis people to discuss how problematic it is for trans women to say they are women.
That's super cool.
Trans women are women is not the bloody transgender movement slogan entirely
It's the direct response to the trans women are men shit.
Imagine switching that out for trans liberation
Bigot: Trans women are men
Us: Trans liberation!
Useful.
It's hilarious that Nat of all people is making this argument.
That's super cool.
Trans women are women is not the bloody transgender movement slogan entirely
It's the direct response to the trans women are men shit.
Imagine switching that out for trans liberation
Bigot: Trans women are men
Us: Trans liberation!
Useful.
It's hilarious that Nat of all people is making this argument.
I don't think people here are stating it's an issue with trans women saying they are women, more that they're discussing why the call itself is more prominent with everyone.
I agree with you, though, it is no the entire movement and it is a direct response.
Really like her, she's lovely and really smart. It would totally align on how I view most of the topics, but there is a lot in it to learn.
Could probably do with its own thread as its a bit broarder than just TERFs.
Because it's literally a response to a specific thing. We also say trans men are men and non binary people are non binary people
Nat has a storied history of wanting to just dissappear into society and be seen just as a women... but now she's deeply concerned about "trans women are women"
Trans liberation is a meaningless phrase.
This is just Nat wanting to be some vanguard. Works too Nat says it and now it's a thing, because she's become the trans voice
Blah, Natalie did a whole fucking video shitting on trans women who don't trans women the way she wants, and argues those women make it harder for her to be trans, same withaskingeach other aboutpreferred pronouns... but now she's deeply concerned about trans women needing validation, and moving past that?
Trans liberation means fuck all. Shit TERFS could go yes exactly liberate trans people from the societal forces that make them think they're trans and shit. It's a completely empty thing
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Wow, the video really doesn't feel like ninety minutes. I watched it in two sittings and when it ended just now I was like "what, already?". Truly a testament to Natalie's abilities as a communicator and entertainer.
Really wonderful video that unfortunately the people that would need it the most (and maybe, just maybe, could be changed by it) will never watch to begin with; she really cuts through most of JK's bullshit and plausible deniability attempts with the precision of a surgeon. On another note, I'm so fucking livid every time I remember JK's essay being nominated by the BBC.
Really wonderful video that unfortunately the people that would need it the most (and maybe, just maybe, could be changed by it) will never watch to begin with; she really cuts through most of JK's bullshit and plausible deniability attempts with the precision of a surgeon. On another note, I'm so fucking livid every time I remember JK's essay being nominated by the BBC.
Silly aside, but holding a phone in one hand and a book in the other, two of the least submersible objects ever, while in a bathtub of milk and water, was so distracting to me. :)
Trans men are men does not get said nearly as much as trans women are women, them getting ignored is something that happens quite a bit, I don't think that argument is wrong? Trans liberation now may not be the phrase to go with but honestly most of trans rights discussion is centred on trans women in the media, trans men get left behind, changing that is surely not a bad goal?
Loved the video, wasn't super excited with her last one but this is great. God I hate Joanne. Natalie is great.
I can only speak from my personal experience, but I see the conversation focus on trans women far more frequently to the point I honestly cannot remember the last time I had to try to reason with someone expressing bigotry specifically at a trans man. I see it expressed at trans people as a whole very often, of course.
I do not think, however, that trans men are being erased here. I think it is to do with the fact prominent TERFs focus most of their attention on trans women, and most of the modern conversation is surrounding things like "men encroaching on female spaces". And that the conversation is what it is out of direct response to what we're seeing.
Despite all of this, I regularly see "trans men are men" said alongside "trans women are women".
I cannot, of course, speak for trans men and understand how they feel about all of this, if they personally feel like they're being erased or forgotten. If we have any trans men reading this thread who would like to chime in, I'd be very interested to hear their perspective.
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Then call out that and argue for people to say the full phrase. Which is a full phrase.
Because we say trans women are women because fucking conservatives and TERFS are presenting us as male sexual predators who want to access women's spaces to rape and assault women and girls.
We're being presented as literal existential threats to women.
And Nat talking this up is bullshit because she'll just make another video eventually shaming some random trans woman for not presenting classically feminine enough for her liking and accuse said woman of setting trans rights back. Natalie is all about respectability politics and cis affirmation so this whole thing is just massively hypocritical.
I agreed with that segment so feel some onus to expand upon it. I saw it predominantly as a criticism of how it's often a default phrase for some cis people to chant in support, where the full version isn't. Trans people using it often do so in direct response to someone specifically questioning the validity of trans women as women, and to that there's little issue. A lot of the virulent attacks from TERFs are centered around trans women, responding to that in specific shouldn't be taken as a dismissal of other identities.
Then again I don't think someone who's whined about cancel culture and poked at various minority issues before, saying they've always wondered why it was focused on trans women, was ever in good faith in the first place.
Then again I don't think someone who's whined about cancel culture and poked at various minority issues before, saying they've always wondered why it was focused on trans women, was ever in good faith in the first place.
Just to expand on my point earlier that I don't think the phrase Trans women are women should be done a way with just that maybe it should become the main chant of the movement which it has become by Allies. There are many times when Trans women are women is apt just not every time. The full phrase just isn't really as catchy as short phrases are. I don't know if it's that big an issue though that wouldn't be solved on its own by having more prominent trans men and non binary people in media which should have a push anyway
I'm convinced the only people Nat hates and has no actual sympathy for is online trans people who don't trans the way Natalie Wynn desires
Also hilarious she zeroes in on trans women are women
When the other ally thing was to get them to say "trans rights" or "trans rights are human rights"
But she didn't invent those I guess!
When the other ally thing was to get them to say "trans rights" or "trans rights are human rights"
But she didn't invent those I guess!
This was a really informative and eye-opening watch. I wasn't initially familiar with ContraPoints's work so this is my first video and it really explained well the vendetta J.K Rowling has coupled with showcasing that trash book she released. Thank you for sharing this.
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