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ScOULaris

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,629
I've always been someone who tries to get the best, most accurate picture from my TV's, but over the many years that I've been using HD (and now 4K) sets I always made one deviation from the general rules of thumb regarding TV calibration: I tended to prefer Normal or neutral color temperature over Warm as my starting point.

Yes, for so long I was one of those people who couldn't even fathom how people could see a TV using a warm color temp and think that it looked like anything other than a red- or yellow-tinted mess. Whites looked cream-colored at best, and every other color seemed to lose contrast from those around it as this blanket of red tinge fell over everything. I'd see people saying that your eyes just need to adjust, but I never paid them any heed.

Until now. It turns out I was missing one key ingredient when it comes to switching to a Warm color temperature for my game/film consumption on my main TV, and that was white balancing to get rid of the red shift that came with the Warm setting. Luckily both of my TCL R617's allow for an 11-point white balancing via the Roku app on my phone, and I also made use of TCL's iPQ Mobile Calibration app to hone in on the best white balance values to result in a stunningly accurate and beautiful picture.

color-displays-wp-color-temperature-2-1.png

Gimme that 6500K white point bay-beeeeeeee

Make no mistake, on a lot of TV's the default Warm setting will be too red, orange, yellow, etc. But starting from Warm and then white-balancing from there is truly a revelation, and now all other Normal (or cooler) screens that I come across in daily life basically blind me with their garish, icy hues. It's honestly kind of annoying now since my eyes are becoming much more sensitive to this difference between my main TV's and virtually every other screen that I come across at friends' houses, their phone displays, etc.

Before I was just living my life in blissful ignorance since the screens that I used the most were just as neutral/cold as most others, but now I can't go back. I can't unsee the more natural skin tones, eye-pleasing soft whites, and complete absence of crushed details in dark/bright areas.

Have any of you undergone this transformation, specifically when it comes to your main gaming TV?

PS - It was playing TLOU2 in HDR that sent me down this rabbit hole after noticing that switching to Warm revealed some details in the game's really dark interiors that were being crushed/lost by my HDR video settings, which included a Normal color temp at the time.
 

DrEvil

Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,647
Canada
Just wait until you discover the wonder that is warm coloured LED bulbs.

Whenever I take a walk and I see homes with 5500k+ lights, I wonder how the hell they don't feel like they live in a hospital with all that cold lighting.



and yes, TLOU2's HDR is gorgeous :D
 

SnakeXs

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,111
Just wait until you discover the wonder that is warm coloured LED bulbs.

Whenever I take a walk and I see homes with 5500k+ lights, I wonder how the hell they don't feel like they live in a hospital with all that cold lighting.
A man of class and fine taste. Shame so few people get it, and bigger shame that so many "like" harsh, cold light.
 

Einbroch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,037
I enjoy the harsh, cold light...

In my office and in my bathroom. Nowhere else though.
 

HTupolev

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,440
Until now. It turns out I was missing one key ingredient when it comes to switching to a Warm color temperature for my game/film consumption on my main TV, and that was white balancing to get rid of the red shift that came with the Warm setting.
White balance and color temperature settings are basically the same idea. White balancing is what you do to an image to correct for the color temperature of either the recording or viewing environment.

Sure, doing an 11-point curve fit does give you more control than just changing a single full-spectrum setting. But if you're using the 11-point fit to undue the "red shift" from the Warm setting, you're effectively making the image cooler.
 

Lkr

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,529
Just wait until you discover the wonder that is warm coloured LED bulbs.

Whenever I take a walk and I see homes with 5500k+ lights, I wonder how the hell they don't feel like they live in a hospital with all that cold lighting.



and yes, TLOU2's HDR is gorgeous :D
Cold light is great to force yourself awake in the morning if you have smart bulbs that can change. That's literally all it's good for, otherwise it's headache inducing to me
 

DrEvil

Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,647
Canada
A man of class and fine taste. Shame so few people get it, and bigger shame that so many "like" harsh, cold light.

I wonder how much of it is people don't know any better. That maybe they buy a fixture and that's just the bulb that came with it, or it was in the house when they got there... I can't stand it, the only 'cold' lights I have in my house, and even that is pure daylight 5500K, are the LED under lights under my kitchen cabinets that mostly get drowned out by the warmer lights for the rest of the room.
 

GSG

Member
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,051
Just wait until you discover the wonder that is warm coloured LED bulbs.

Whenever I take a walk and I see homes with 5500k+ lights, I wonder how the hell they don't feel like they live in a hospital with all that cold lighting.



and yes, TLOU2's HDR is gorgeous :D

I agree, I'll often see a beautiful house along the side of the road that's completely ruined by the bright white lights on the inside.
 

BaldwinAce

Member
Oct 28, 2017
702
Montréal, Québec, Canada
Yeah if anyone knows a good way about white balancing a OLED B9, I'm all ears!

I'm already rocking the warm 2 color temp and it looks great, but if it makes it even greater, I'm going down that rabbit hole!
 
OP
OP
ScOULaris

ScOULaris

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,629
White balance and color temperature settings are basically the same idea. White balancing is what you do to an image to correct for the color temperature of either the recording or viewing environment.

Sure, doing an 11-point curve fit does give you more control than just changing a single full-spectrum setting. But if you're using the 11-point fit to undue the "red shift" from the Warm setting, you're effectively making the image cooler.
My TV's Warm setting was a little on the red side. After white balancing the whites are actually neutral, with an average dE value of about 2.0. So yes it is cooler than my TV's default Warm setting without any further tweaking, but that's because it was slightly too warm to begin with. Now it's actually neutral white.

I should clarify that I was relying on the iPQ Calibration app to do this. If I was just going by eye I probably would've over-shot the 6500K mark and ended up with something less accurate for sure.
 

sheaaaa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,556
I tried Warm2 or the Game Mode equivalent for my LG C7 based on that guy here's calibration settings thread, but I never managed to get used to it. Always felt too yellow for me and it was bothering me every time I looked at it. Settled on an in-between - Warm1 or the equivalent - and I've been very happy since.
 

MattB

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,904
I'm ok with warm on TV but in lights? Eww give me that cold stuff! Warm 2 though is for bad people
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
Yah im not exactly a videophile and i was surprised to find this yellowish setting actually looked the best in a dark room. It threw me off at first how it takes a few minutes to adjust.
 

Vex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,213
Hmmm.... Nah. I need the best accurate colors possible for a lot of 3D art I do/look at. Adjusting colors against blue light fliters or improperly white balanced displays would just lead to a disaster. It effectively changes the entire theme of what you are viewing imo.

On my cellphone i have my blue light filter enabled tho, but when im designing something or even gaming, I need true colors. Not everything with a shade of yellow/orange layered over top of it. It's just not accurate, and your left wondering if the person reviewing your work is seeing it the same way you were.
 

MrBS

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,236
Neutral lighting baby, hospital lighting till I die!

Hue lights have the added benefit of having that bright setting, getting non warm lights used to be a chore sometimes.
 

Nikus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,370
I wish I could see it but everytime I try Warm 1 or Warm 2, everything becomes Deus Ex: Mankind Divided.
I can't. It frustrates me because I trust people saying it's better, but I can't.
I'll try again when I buy a new TV, which should be at the end of the year hopefully.
 

Doctre81

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,452
White balance and color temperature settings are basically the same idea. White balancing is what you do to an image to correct for the color temperature of either the recording or viewing environment.

Sure, doing an 11-point curve fit does give you more control than just changing a single full-spectrum setting. But if you're using the 11-point fit to undue the "red shift" from the Warm setting, you're effectively making the image cooler.

This lol.
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,643
One of the reasons why people chose dark theme on websites like these is because they select 'normal' in color shift setting, which is not normal at all. Its a harsh, cold white that's uncomfortable after few minutes. If you select Warm or Warm 2 you may not need dark themes all the time.
 

ABK281

Member
Apr 5, 2018
3,004
I don't even know what cool colors look like anymore. On my monitor I have flux set to like 5000k all day and around 3600k at night. It saved my eyes, I would constantly have severely bloodshot eyes back before I used it, now I can stare at my monitor all day if I have to and I am fine.
 

PrismStar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
357
If warm temperature is the correct one why do most screens 'Standard Mode' use Neutral color? And if neutral color is the 'Standard' do devs develop games with neutral temperature in mind?
 

Nephrahim

Member
Jun 9, 2018
291
What a strange thread.

I'm sorry that Daylight (5000k+) bulbs give some of you headaches, but it's obviously the best light source because it produces the most accurate colors.

Like yeah, Warm Light is better for going to sleep, but if I'm going to sleep, ideally, I'm not looking at a screen? I've played around with all sorts of light sources and and screen settings and never thought "Warm" colors did anything bit distract.
 

Sabretooth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,068
India
I wish I could see it but everytime I try Warm 1 or Warm 2, everything becomes Deus Ex: Mankind Divided.
I can't. It frustrates me because I trust people saying it's better, but I can't.
I'll try again when I buy a new TV, which should be at the end of the year hopefully.

I think you mean Human Revolution, and I agree with you on both counts! Everyone keeps saying Warm is best, but I really cannot get used to it, it feels too yellow.
 

Barn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,137
Los Angeles
Sometimes I wear eyeglasses with a yellow tint, especially when I'm looking at a monitor for a long time. Whenever I take them off after a while, it feels like all the world is a Walmart.
 

Fliep

Banned
Feb 13, 2018
460
How do I get this on a LG C9?
Just warm 2 or do I need to tweak it manually?
 

The Maestro

Member
Feb 12, 2018
119
I'm a recent warm 1 convert. Up until 6 months ago, I was a cold color mofo.

Warm 1 definitely looks a bit more natural in my opinion. Warm 2 is too toasty for me.
 

Aisod

Member
Mar 21, 2020
473
Just wait until you discover the wonder that is warm coloured LED bulbs.

Whenever I take a walk and I see homes with 5500k+ lights, I wonder how the hell they don't feel like they live in a hospital with all that cold lighting.



and yes, TLOU2's HDR is gorgeous :D

I replaced all of my warm LEDs with daylight LEDs. The wife and I like it much better. We only kept the bedrooms warm.
 

RoninStrife

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,002
White balancing a KS8000 is such a pain, Warm 2 with all white balancing options at Zero and having color on auto color seems closest to 6500 warm.


But everything I've read online suggests the white setting should generally be +9 red gain, -9 Blue gain.(with the rest of the white settings at 0)

Doing that though, I feel it gets too warm.

Add to the injury, in Game mode, only 2 point white balance is available, on movie and other modes 10 point white balance is available.

I know everyone's panel is different, but could someone with a professionally calibrated KS800 help in this regard, what 2 point white balance setting are you using in Game mode?
 
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RoninStrife

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,002
If warm temperature is the correct one why do most screens 'Standard Mode' use Neutral color? And if neutral color is the 'Standard' do devs develop games with neutral temperature in mind?
Because Warm2 is what TV shows, movies and games are calibrated to be at. Devs develop games at Warm2. and Gamma at -1 (for SDR content) I've seen a couple Digital Foundry tv setting videos where when calibrating Standard range content, they have Warm2, Gamma at -1 but with HDR content they have it at Warm 2 and Gamma 0 .

All those standard etc stuff is fake, I generally believe it's what looks nice under the flourousant lights at the store, but it's generally completely inaccurate color wise, going to give either crushed blacks or whites, while you see everything on screen at Warm2 (with perfect white balance).
Ideally, a tv on Movie mode as default (not natural, or standard etc) and Warm 2 is more accurate in terms of movie/tv show recording than it not being. Movies, tv shows and games are basically created at Warm2 values.
 
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Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,029
The irony of it all is that 6500K is not warm. It isn't even a neutral white: it's a blue-tinted white.
But most TVs are so strongly blue-tinted by default that it can look yellow in comparison.
Actual neutral white is closer to 5500K - which is "warmer" than many TVs even have a preset for.

cie_illuminants_d_andgbjpa.gif


Whether that corresponds to "Warm 1", "Warm 2", or "Warm 3" really depends on the TV.
I've seen some TVs where your choice is between a 7000K "Warm 1" and a 6000K "Warm 2". In that situation I wouldn't blame some for choosing the cooler temperature.
But most new TVs should have a preset that is close to 6500K now.

Until now. It turns out I was missing one key ingredient when it comes to switching to a Warm color temperature for my game/film consumption on my main TV, and that was white balancing to get rid of the red shift that came with the Warm setting. Luckily both of my TCL R617's allow for an 11-point white balancing via the Roku app on my phone, and I also made use of TCL's iPQ Mobile Calibration app to hone in on the best white balance values to result in a stunningly accurate and beautiful picture.
Unless you're actually using a colorimeter/spectrophotometer, or even an optical comparator, you should not be touching a display's custom white balance controls.
If you're removing red from the preset then you are increasing the color temperature.
Most displays today already include presets which are close enough to being accurate that they can't be improved by adjusting them without instrumentation.

I don't think you should trust the iPQ calibration app:


This review states that the image was made worse with the iPQ app compared to the default preset.

If warm temperature is the correct one why do most screens 'Standard Mode' use Neutral color? And if neutral color is the 'Standard' do devs develop games with neutral temperature in mind?
"Cooler" images appear brighter - for a number of reasons. Part of it is perceptual, but part of it is the type of light used in televisions.
The "white" LEDs used in TV backlights are bluer than 6500K - so you are reducing the brightness somewhat by displaying accurate colors.
This is also true of OLED, which mixes a cool white subpixel in with red/green/blue. It's one of the reasons that images can look cooler on OLED in real-world viewing compared to how they measure in test-patterns.

TV manufacturers have a lot of old nomenclature which is completely inaccurate, but is carried over.
An obvious one is the "brightness" control on your TV. The brightness control doesn't adjust how bright the screen gets - it adjusts the black level.
The contrast control doesn't adjust how much contrast the image has - it adjusts how bright the image gets; though many displays also have a backlight control for that.

What is "warm" on a television is considered to be "cool" for lighting.
You'll never find a 6500K light bulb that is advertised as being "warm" - it's going to be sold as a "cool white" bulb. Even "daylight" bulbs are typically 5500K.

White balancing a KS8000 is such a pain, Warm 2 with all white balancing options at Zero and having color on auto color seems closest to 6500 warm.
But everything I've read online suggests the white setting should generally be +9 red gain, -9 Blue gain.(with the rest of the white settings at 0)
Doing that though, I feel it gets too warm.
Add to the injury, in Game mode, only 2 point white balance is available, on movie and other modes 10 point white balance is available.
I know everyone's panel is different, but could someone with a professionally calibrated KS800 help in this regard, what 2 point white balance setting are you using in Game mode?
You should never be adjusting the manual color temperature controls without instrumentation, and especially not copying someone else's result.
Back when I was involved with one of the popular HDTV review outlets, I had to stress that if they were going to publish "calibrated settings" they must only use one of the color temperature presets and not manual white balance controls.
Presets are tuned so that they should produce roughly the same image across most displays. But once you start to deviate from that with manual controls you have no idea if you are making the image better or worse.

Let's say that a manufacturer targets 6500K±500 with their presets.
One TV might arrive with a 6000K temperature and another might arrive with a 7000K temperature.
If a review outlet received one which measured 7000K, they would have to make adjustments which result in −500K to bring it to 6500K.
If your TV arrives and it's 6000K out of the box, but you have no reference to compare it against, copying those same settings would push it to 5500K - making it worse.

Just wait until you discover the wonder that is warm coloured LED bulbs.
Whenever I take a walk and I see homes with 5500k+ lights, I wonder how the hell they don't feel like they live in a hospital with all that cold lighting.
I like high-CRI daylight lighting - which typically means CFL bulbs in the home - just not the cheapest ones you can buy (yes, really).
It makes for great task lighting, for lighting up a dim room during the daytime, or extending the length of a day in those winter months.

But it's absolutely not the kind of lighting I would use for relaxing in the evenings.
As much as I have issues with the lower CRI ratings of the bulbs - and I've written about that at length here in the past - I've switched most of my lighting over to smart bulbs now because I am able to set the color temperature on a schedule, and set them warmer than any high-CRI warm lighting allows.
My preference is still halogen lighting, but the heat, buzzing when dimmed, lifespan and cost of operation means that I've eliminated it in most fixtures now.

They're expensive, but Hue bulbs have features that many others lack, such as being able to set the color in xy coordinates via the API rather than just an HSL color picker or color temperature scale.
The bulbs range from 2000K–6500K when set via Mireds, but I have them dim to 1200K late at night by using the xy settings (0.6250, 0.3675) which are accessible in the "Hue Lights" app on iOS (it was set once in that app, and then saved as a preset inside iConnectHue which I use for my lighting control).
This initially looks like a deep red, but gradually shifts to orange as your eyes adapt.

I suspect that one of the reasons many people end up with cooler lighting in their homes is because cheap warm lighting can be awful.
It's extremely-low CRI so that lighting is uncomfortable to be in. Cooler lighting is going to make this far less obvious.
 

Beer Monkey

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,308
ISF techs have been calibrating TVs to 6500K for going on three decades. I paid about $500 to have a top ISF tech calibrate my 3CRT rear projector in 2002. For many years it was impossible to get any laymen to understand why one would have a set calibrated.
 

Inkvoterad

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,339
Definetly. I even throw some extra temperature on some games i play that i feel look too cold through filters. Dark Souls 3 is so much more enjoyable when its not so immensely cold to look at, despite having a pretty alright calibration on my monitor in overall. The worst thing i know is all these reshades people release for games that basically just turn up the """"color pop"""" to eleven with a cold temperature. Makes my eyes bleed.
 

SoundLad

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,254
Warm 1 gang reporting in.

On a related note, my town council has recently started switching the lovely orange street lightbulbs to cold and nasty led ones and it's depressing.
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,217
I gave it a chance, left it on for 5 days because people said it took time to get used to. The moment I switched back to default cool it immediately looked better to me so I guess that's my preference.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,029
On a related note, my town council has recently started switching the lovely orange street lightbulbs to cold and nasty led ones and it's depressing.
I hate what is being done with street lights.
Some time ago a car crashed into a street light opposite my place, and it was replaced with a new LED street light.
Not only is it a cool blue light, which is significantly brighter than the others in the area, it uses PWM to save energy so it has a noticeable strobe effect.
And because it's designed to direct light at wider beam angle than traditional lights (and probably improperly installed) it shines directly on my windows. I've complained to the relevant authorities and they basically said there was nothing they could do, as it's part of the city's plan to reduce energy costs by a set date - so they're all going to be replaced with them in the next few years.
 

SoundLad

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,254
I hate what is being done with street lights.
Some time ago a car crashed into a street light opposite my place, and it was replaced with a new LED street light.
Not only is it a cool blue light, which is significantly brighter than the others in the area, it uses PWM to save energy so it has a noticeable strobe effect.
And because it's designed to direct light at wider beam angle than traditional lights (and probably improperly installed) it shines directly on my windows. I've complained to the relevant authorities and they basically said there was nothing they could do, as it's part of the city's plan to reduce energy costs by a set date - so they're all going to be replaced with them in the next few years.
I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who's really bothered by this. Energy saving is great and hard to argue against, but man is it depressing.
 

upinsmoke

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,566
I never used to bother with adjusting a lot of my TV settings but I decided to after paying a bit more than i usually would on a TV. Anyway one of the recommendations was to change to warm 2. Never looked back since
 

Cyberclops

Member
Mar 15, 2019
1,444
I really only notice these kinds of things when my night shift turns off accidentally and the blueness of my monitor blows my eyes out.
 

dodo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,997
I'm warm on my TV but cool on my PC. part of that though is that I have a drawing tablet, and having mismatched monitor colors is really annoying so I make sure everything matches what the tablet needs to be for accurate color work