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Dragoon

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
11,231
What happened was Jump had told Kubo that they wanted Bleach wrapped-up, and gave him something like a year to do so.

He continued to drag his feet and pad the battles with dumb counter-attacks.

Jump got fed up and sent him a fax saying "You've got two weeks. Finish it."

From the final chapter:

s3ugbVe.png
That's cold blooded man.. all the money he got them for around a decade...
 
Nov 17, 2017
12,864
Because the theme of overcoming hatred has been consistently there since the first chapter and is repeated over and over in basically every arc. The whole hard work vs natural talent is like a thing in a couple fights. Naruto always had a demon fox inside of him so it's not even like Naruto betrayed the theme of hard work at some late point in the manga. People who make that argument, generally just remember the Neji fight and misattribute a lot of the manga to that. In fact, I notice often the opinion comes straight from a specific YouTube video that does the same.


This sounds overpowered. Why did Ichigo not immediately get hypnotized when fighting him then? I honestly don't remember.
Ichigo never saw the release of Kyoka Suigetsu so he was never effected by Aizen's hypnosis. At the point of their final battle, Aizen is so arrogant that he doesn't try to use it against Ichigo either.
 

Fulminator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,202
Oh, btw, to Kubo's credit, Ichigo never saw it, and that's why Soul Society thought he was the only one who could beat Aizen. Gin actually also found a workaround, but he just wasn't strong enough.
kinda funny because Aizen could have used it on him at any time but he didnt think he needed to lol

or maybe it's just like Ichigo said and Aizen wanted to lose in the end
 

grand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,981
This sounds overpowered. Why did Ichigo not immediately get hypnotized when fighting him then? I honestly don't remember.
Aizen didn't seem to be able to use his hypnosis powers while becoming a butterfly because he "evolved beyond it". And even when he regained his powers after the orb of bullshit betrayed him, Aizen no longer had full control of the hypnosis & wasn't even aware of what people were seeing under it's effects. Very much a power that had a "mind of it's own".

Plus, by the time Ichigo & Aizen finally met, Aizen was turning into a butterfly and Ichigo was in his sacrificial super mode. So it's unlikely the orb of bullshit would hypnotize Ichigo even if it could.
 

lunarworks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,173
Toronto
That's cold blooded man.. all the money he got them for around a decade...
Bleach was slipping in the rankings, for good reason, and they gave him plenty of opportunity to properly wrap it up. He could have reined-in the excess and delivered, but he didn't.

Now, Kishimoto's Samurai 8 on the other hand... that "finish it up" order came in quick.
 
Nov 17, 2017
12,864
Aizen didn't seem to be able to use his hypnosis powers while becoming a butterfly because he "evolved beyond it". And even when he regained his powers after the orb of bullshit betrayed him, Aizen no longer had full control of the hypnosis & wasn't even aware of what people were seeing under it's effects. Very much a power that had a "mind of it's own".
5725977-12.png

Aizen has control of his hypnosis.
 

Deleted member 3208

Oct 25, 2017
11,934
Since when you were under the impression that Aizen had a bankai? For all we know, he hypnotized everyone to think he had a bankai.
 

Venuslulu

Member
Oct 28, 2017
685
Can they rewrite the ending and flesh out the arc in the anime when they do it so it's not so uggggufjfk
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,722
And that shit was just his shikai. Presumably he also had bankai and more that we just never got to see.
If I remember, in one of the novels they reveal that in order to use his bankai his opponent first has to be hypnotized with his shikai.

Doesn't explain why he couldn't or wouldn't try to show his shikai to Ichigo but.......yeah.
 

pbayne

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,377
It was downhill when it turned from people with sword fighting weird monsters to people with sword fighting other people with swords.
 

Septimus Prime

EA
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
8,500
Since when you were under the impression that Aizen had a bankai? For all we know, he hypnotized everyone to think he had a bankai.
I waver back and forth in believing whether he has one, but I'm leaving toward that he does. The reason he gives for wanting to take over is that he believes he reached the zenith of a shinigami's power, and he wants to get even stronger. If he didn't already have bankai, that shouldn't be the case.

Or he could just be bullshitting everyone about that, as he always does.
 

SasaBassa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,080
Bleach ended in 63 episodes and after the soul society rescue in the manga. No one can convince me otherwise.

The rest is fan fiction from space
 

Imperfected

Member
Nov 9, 2017
11,737
It's apocryphal, but supposedly he decided to finish it despite his health problems because a terminally ill fan basically hit him with a "Make a Wish" to see the last arc before he died.
 
Nov 17, 2017
12,864
With Bleach, if we don't know someone's bankai, it's usually because it does something that isn't useful in a fight or is actually detrimental. Like I think Shinji's bankai made everyone fight each other so he couldn't use it cause it would effect his allies as well.

Aizen's bankai probably is useless compared to other things he can do. Can't think of any other reason why he'd never use it.

It's apocryphal, but supposedly he decided to finish it despite his health problems because a terminally ill fan basically hit him with a "Make a Wish" to see the last arc before he died.
Yeah I can't really be mad at Kubo for things going down the way they did. I know manga readers love to trash him but I always enjoyed his art even if his stories weren't always great.
 

Hystzen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,401
Manchester UK
The last arc is pretty great until the end of the first invasion with the whole declaring Byakuya is alive I mean what the actual fuck. The training is fine but it falls apart after Renji kills Mask then rushes to nothingness.

the first half of arc has a great bleak tone and letting some main older captains die in main invasion then letting other characters take over be way more interesting. It one few times where death could have meant something not for stakes but for plot. Example

Byakuya stays dead you get Renji stepping up to be captain and taking his role seriously with training with squad zero. You get Rukia becoming the head of a noble family could bring in Yorichi to bring in lore and help her take over as head.
 

NediarPT88

Member
Oct 29, 2017
15,139
Kinda crazy that I don't remember pretty much anything from the last arcs despite reading everything. I actually don't recall anything the OP describes besides the Ichigo/Orihime and Rukia/Renji stuff.

I really enjoyed Bleach at the start but I remember reaching a point where there was like a transformation per chapter and the fights were basically a character owning another during a chapter and then in the next one it was the oppposite and so on until the fight ended. And then there were pages where there was only a character doing a pose or something like that where it seemed they didn't have enough ideas to do a complete chapter.

I pretty much reached the "bitch eating crackers" point with this series where everything annoyed me.

Regarding the Naruto ending comparison, I'm not the biggest Naruto fan but at least I remember that one lol
 

Imperfected

Member
Nov 9, 2017
11,737
With Bleach, if we don't know someone's bankai, it's usually because it does something that isn't useful in a fight or is actually detrimental. Like I think Shinji's bankai made everyone fight each other so he couldn't use it cause it would effect his allies as well.

Yeah, or it's just too dangerous. Yamamoto's extremely reluctant to use his because it can cause huge amounts of collateral damage. It seems like Kyouraku's kind of in the same boat; during his fight with the X Sternritter he says several things like "Nanao, I hope you're far enough away" and "Oh good, you didn't get caught in it" that imply it just has a huge area of effect and he can't really exclude anyone caught inside from getting hit with it.

There's also the possibility for some characters (like Yoruichi) that their bankai may have been damaged at some unknown point in the past.
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,329
That's even move damning to be honest. The only novels to be deemed worthy of localization were not the ones detailing the ending but rather the two spinoffs that shared a writing credit with Kubo and were written by the creator of Baccano & Durarara.

the ending novel is coming out in summer.


Bleach was slipping in the rankings, for good reason, and they gave him plenty of opportunity to properly wrap it up. He could have reined-in the excess and delivered, but he didn't.

Incorrect. Actually, all your posts so far are incorrect about bleach's ending. The rankings were manipulated during the last year of Bleach's run. Toriko was being artificially boosted due to Oda falling in a favor, and Bleach was artificially deflated due to Kubo telling WSJ he needed to end it soon due to worsening health.
 

RocketKiss

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
4,691
I remember when one of the vice captains just happened to have the very exact sword needed to kill the unkillable Sternritter who turned into chicken god. Or soemthing.
 

Flame Flamey

Member
Feb 8, 2018
4,624
Aizen giving the final "humans are awesome" speech or whatever it was in the ending is just really hilarious to me

021.png

"Courage."

Like imagine the villain from another series giving a speech like this in the final chapter
 

HardRojo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,133
Peru
What do you mean? Bleach finished when Urahara trapped Aizen with that binding artifact he used.
 

grand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,981
the ending novel is coming out in summer.
I can't find any announcement of additional novel localizations & release.

Incorrect. Actually, all your posts so far are incorrect about bleach's ending. The rankings were manipulated during the last year of Bleach's run. Toriko was being artificially boosted due to Oda falling in a favor, and Bleach was artificially deflated due to Kubo telling WSJ he needed to end it soon due to worsening health.
Okay, now you're just posting baseless conspiracy theories
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,329
I can't find any announcement of additional novel localizations & release.

the first volumes of the ending novel came out last year actually

Bleach: Can't Fear Your Own World, Vol. 1 (1): Narita, Ryohgo, Cash, Jan Mitsuko, Kubo, Tite: 9781974713264: Books

Bleach: Can't Fear Your Own World, Vol. 1 (1): Narita, Ryohgo, Cash, Jan Mitsuko, Kubo, Tite: 9781974713264: Books

And volume 3 is coming out march

Amazon.com: Bleach: Can't Fear Your Own World, Vol. 3: 9781974713288: Narita, Ryohgo, Cash, Jan Mitsuko, Kubo, Tite: Books

Amazon.com: Bleach: Can't Fear Your Own World, Vol. 3: 9781974713288: Narita, Ryohgo, Cash, Jan Mitsuko, Kubo, Tite: Books


Okay, now you're just posting baseless conspiracy theories
Nah it's well known Toriko got boosted and even when Toriko ranked highly it was selling less than bleach in volume sales and Toriko was selling better than some series which were also ahead of bleach in rankings so that means either people were buying bleach volumes blind (unlikely) or both rankings were being manipulated.
 
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Mankoto

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,390
I really hope the anime can fix the manga. It really is unfortunate that Kubo got sick to a point where continuing was not an option.

I remember reading an oldass interview back when everyone was fighting Aizen in Karakura Town and Kubo said he has 3 arcs planned for the series, 2 mini arcs (Fullbringer and and 1 long one and the plan was to tell it all over 10 years. In the end, Bleach only lasted another 7 or so years after that interview. So out of Kubo's own crackpot timetable, he needed a lot more time to tell the story he really wanted to tell... Which unfortunately makes a lot of sense considering his plot progression speed.

It's nice to see him doing stuff again a la Burn the Witch even if it was an accident.
 

grand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,981
the first volumes of the ending novel came out last year actually

Bleach: Can't Fear Your Own World, Vol. 1 (1): Narita, Ryohgo, Cash, Jan Mitsuko, Kubo, Tite: 9781974713264: Books

Bleach: Can't Fear Your Own World, Vol. 1 (1): Narita, Ryohgo, Cash, Jan Mitsuko, Kubo, Tite: 9781974713264: Books
That's the 2016 novel by the Baccano writer that my post was talking about. You're literally sourcing my own post back at me lmao
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,329
That's the 2016 novel by the Baccano writer that my post was talking about. You're literally sourcing my own post back at me lmao
That novel is the ending novel. Also can't fear your own world came out in 2017 - 2018. You're not thinking of the wedding novel are you which takes place chronologically before CFYOW?
 

grand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,981
Nah it's well known Toriko got boosted and even when Toriko ranked highly it was selling less than bleach in volume sales and Toriko was selling better than some series which were also ahead of bleach in rankings so that means either people were buying bleach volumes blind (unlikely) or both rankings were being manipulated.
Provide a source then. Prove your theory
 

Ruisu

Banned
Aug 1, 2019
5,535
Brasil
Aizen giving the final "humans are awesome" speech or whatever it was in the ending is just really hilarious to me

021.png

"Courage."

Like imagine the villain from another series giving a speech like this in the final chapter
I mean...

That speech is kind of Aizen's motivation though. Do remember that shinigami were not immortal (in the sense they can be killed) so this isn't really about "humans are awesome". When he talks about "casting their fears aside and persevering through them", this is almost the same thing he said when Gin tried to kill him in the deicide arc. That the fear of death was what allowed him to reach an even higher stage in his power's evolution.
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,329
Provide a source then. Prove your theory

from 2014 manga sales

bleach
Vol.61; 624,403
Vol.62; 603,344
Vol.63; 572,656
Vol.64; 532,356
Vol 65; 462,190

Toriko
By volume.
55 *,392,584 Toriko Vol.28
70 *,380,454 Toriko Vol.29
168 *347,011 Toriko Vol.30
Vol 31 and 32 did not appear in the yearly list, the cutoff line was 314,236.

yet you'll find the rankings in WSJ for 2014 was Toriko > Bleach

it's also well known that the rankings are only somewhat reflective of popularity. It's pretty clear by this example alone it's not popularity. Otherwise that'd mean there's at least 100k-300k who just buy blind which is unlikely. The simpler answer is their rankings both got manipulated.
 
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grand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,981
from 2014 manga sales

bleach


Toriko


yet you'll find the rankings in WSJ for 2014 was Toriko > Bleach
That just shows older fans were still buying Bleach volumes but the series was failing to bring in any new & younger fans. Plus, Bleach volumes used to sell in 800k/900k range. But even before 2014, the started declining and failed to stay on the charts for very long. Unlike Naruto & One Piece, Bleach's popularity was slowly declining, hence why the anime & then manga came to an end. There's no grand conspiracy about it: it's just about money.

But regardless, you still aren't showing any evidence of your allegations. Bleach volumes selling more than Toriko volumes in 2014 doesn't mean anything to what you were alleging. Especially since both series were cancelled at the same time.

Also I know you're only responding with the first Google search you find each time. It's kinda obvious lol

You really don't need to go this far when the point of the conversation was "I don't think the Bleach novels are canon" and "if they are, that's pretty shitty for fans"
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,329
That just shows older fans were still buying Bleach volumes but the series was failing to bring in any new & younger fans. Plus, Bleach volumes used to sell in 800k/900k range. But even before 2014, the started declining and failed to stay on the charts for very long. Unlike Naruto & One Piece, Bleach's popularity was slowly declining, hence why the anime & then manga came to an end. There's no grand conspiracy about it: it's just about money.

But regardless, you still aren't showing any evidence of your allegations. Bleach volumes selling more than Toriko volumes in 2014 doesn't mean anything to what you were alleging. Especially since both series were cancelled at the same time.

i mean, with an anime and supposedly being in the top of ToC that's supposedly based on popularity, Toriko was ranked higher than Bleach. That's a huge disconnect. Not only was Toriko ranked higher it was typically ranked higher than other series that were also more popular. It's not some open secret that the rankings are manipulated. Most of the time it's more objective, but, in the case of Toriko, it was done as a favor to Oda which meant manipulating the ranking of multiple series.

my axe to grind is mostly with Toriko. Terrible series written by a pedophile with the support of Oda and WSJ that got treated way better than many other series such as Nisekoi, Boruto, and yes Bleach.

that said, bleach gets to complete its anime and Boruto will likely lap Toriko long term.
 
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UrbanDandy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,452
reading the last arc was disappointing for me. The fight against the Sternritter's was just padding (especially the sniper who became a chicken). the Royal Guard were jobbed out. The Soul King was underwhelming. However, the biggest offender is Ichigo. During the course of the series, the guy has like 4 separate powers, but yet he keeps spamming his speed/Getsuga Tensho/Cero. Would it have bothered Kubo to have his main character use any of the other 3?
 

grand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,981
i mean, with an anime and supposedly being in the top of ToC that's supposedly based on popularity, Toriko was ranked higher than Bleach. That's a huge disconnect. Not only was Toriko ranked higher it was typically ranked higher than other series that were also more popular. It's not some open secret that the rankings are manipulated. Most of the time it's more objective, but, in the case of Toriko, it was done as a favor to Oda which meant manipulating the ranking of multiple series.

my axe to grind is mostly with Toriko. Terrible series written by a pedophile with the support of Oda and WSJ that got treated way better than many other series such as Nisekoi, Boruto, and yes Bleach.

that said, bleach gets to complete its anime and Boruto will likely lap Toriko long term.
There's just no proof that Toriko survived because of a "favor to Oda" or that Shonen Jump was against Bleach. The real answer is probably the obvious answer: money. If you want a real answer for why Toriko was pushed so heavily, it's probably just because of Toei licensing the series and trying to push it heavily. That would be more than enough of a financial reason for Jump to give Toriko more chances than it deserved.

But hey, if you just want to shit on Toriko, by all means go ahead. It's a garbage series by a garbage man. I'll take a million terrible Bleach spinoffs before I touch anything from the author of Toriko.
 

lunarworks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,173
Toronto
Incorrect. Actually, all your posts so far are incorrect about bleach's ending. The rankings were manipulated during the last year of Bleach's run. Toriko was being artificially boosted due to Oda falling in a favor, and Bleach was artificially deflated due to Kubo telling WSJ he needed to end it soon due to worsening health.
I was reading Bleach at the time and I never saw any mention in the news of health issues. Usually Jump will give their artists breaks to recuperate, like with Hunter✕Hunter. If there was any announcement about health issues afterwards, it was probably to save face, but I never saw them. All I know is that Jump made a big announcement saying that Bleach would be ending after the current arc (it's dragging and we want it finished), it was expected to be eight months (iirc), Kubo kept up his extremely tiring counterattack-counterattack-counterattack-counterattack-counterattack-counterattack-counterattack... schtick the entire time, and then out of the blue in an issue of Jump there was a small announcement that Bleach would be ending in two weeks. Just like Samurai 8's two week ending announcement.

You can infer conspiracy theories from sales charts, but if your numbers drop enough in Jump and don't recover, you're gone. There's thousands of other manga artists fighting to get your spot, and that's how it's been for 50 years.
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,329
I was reading Bleach at the time and I never saw any mention in the news of health issues. Usually Jump will give their artists breaks to recuperate, like with Hunter✕Hunter. If there was any announcement about health issues afterwards, it was probably to save face, but I never saw them. All I know is that Jump made a big announcement saying that Bleach would be ending after the current arc (it's dragging and we want it finished), it was expected to be eight months (iirc), Kubo kept up his extremely tiring counterattack-counterattack-counterattack-counterattack-counterattack-counterattack-counterattack... schtick the entire time, and then out of the blue in an issue of Jump there was a small announcement that Bleach would be ending in two weeks. Just like Samurai 8's two week ending announcement.

You can infer conspiracy theories from sales charts, but if your numbers drop enough in Jump and don't recover, you're gone. There's thousands of other manga artists fighting to get your spot, and that's how it's been for 50 years.
He had been having health issues since at least early 2015.

dailyanimeart.com

Bleach Manga on Break due to Illness

Tite Kubo recently confirmed on Twitter that Bleach manga will not run in the next issue of Shueisha’s Weekly Shonen Jump due to Kubo being ill. Kubo spent 8 days in hospital after only finis…
 

lunarworks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,173
Toronto
He had been having health issues since at least early 2015.

dailyanimeart.com

Bleach Manga on Break due to Illness

Tite Kubo recently confirmed on Twitter that Bleach manga will not run in the next issue of Shueisha’s Weekly Shonen Jump due to Kubo being ill. Kubo spent 8 days in hospital after only finis…
If that was a concern for Jump they would have given him a proper break, and he wouldn't have kept going at 100, but Bleach's numbers were dropping because nearly every chapter at that point was "what the goddamn bullshit is this?"
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,329
If that was a concern for Jump they would have given him a proper break, and he wouldn't have kept going at 100, but Bleach's numbers were dropping because nearly every chapter at that point was "what the goddamn bullshit is this?"
It wasn't a concern for Jump. It was a concern for Kubo the frequency and time he had to be hospitalized for torn tendons.
 
Nov 17, 2017
12,864
If that was a concern for Jump they would have given him a proper break, and he wouldn't have kept going at 100, but Bleach's numbers were dropping because nearly every chapter at that point was "what the goddamn bullshit is this?"
Idk I'm not gonna judge Kubo too harshly considering what they expect out of mangaka in that industry.

Like the story can be criticized but I never understood the hate the man himself got.
 

grand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,981
If that was a concern for Jump they would have given him a proper break, and he wouldn't have kept going at 100, but Bleach's numbers were dropping because nearly every chapter at that point was "what the goddamn bullshit is this?"
It's because the health issue was not-so-secretly depression and Japan is terrible with mental health. That's also what ended his first series. While it wasn't the cause of Bleach's cancellation, it was likely a major contributor to how rushed and shitty the final arc & ending were.
 

ArgyleReptile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,923
Given the amount of freedom Kubo is getting in regards to Burn The Witch, I find it hard to believe that Jump considered Bleach a failure or wanted it to end as early as it did. Pretty sure there was a recent interview where Kubo had mentioned that the EiC at Jump wanted more Bleach content and Burn the Witch was a result of that. Something along those lines.