Don't let that hear the hardcore Souls crowd :D They would argue that everytime you die you get better and hey, dying is cool anyway!
Personally I always thought of Souls gameplay as glorified trial and error.
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I've come to the conclusion that hard games like Demon's Souls aren't for me.
- Thread starter Marossi
- Start date
Personally I always thought of Souls gameplay as glorified trial and error.
I am intimidated by difficult games like the Souls games.
But with Sekiro and Demons Souls on PS5 now being my second ever. I am 3-4 hours in and I just beat the first boss. Ive only died a few times earlier to a knight. The trick I think with these games is to really go super slow, 1 enemy at a time, and get comfortable. After an hour, i was comfortable exploring that first area / castle Boleteria or whatever without being scared. Eventually I started taking the blue eyes knights down easier.
Then I got the boss, it looked a bit overwhelming despite its easier nature. However, i remembered that fire really messed up those blobs. And i saw a message before the boss on the ground that the one item makes your sword go on fire. I knew I had 3 options. Sword on fire, fire bombs, or eventually a magic class shooting fire easily. I had options. And I knew the weakness. I killed that boss on my first try with no death.
Now I realize that the second boss will be much much harder, but there has to be weaknesses and signs that make it not so hard. Eventually you learn to dodge the attacks somehow. I feel like it can be fair. When I take it step by step, one small enemy at a time, and get comfortable with an area, on repeat, i advance. It has been fun. I am 4-5 hours in now, advancing slowly. I don't care if I do not beat the game. I am just getting as far as I can slowly, and if I die I start to think about why I died and how to more easily beat that enemy. There has to be ways to make it easier or manageable. I noticed in the trailer that the spider boss is a matter of hitting 1-2, then running back each time when it prepares to shoot out the black oil + Fire. sure you may die a few times from its swipes cause you dont dodge, but eventually youll get into a habit of running back at the right time to avoid the fire.
Seems hard if you rush. Seems fair if you go step by step.
But with Sekiro and Demons Souls on PS5 now being my second ever. I am 3-4 hours in and I just beat the first boss. Ive only died a few times earlier to a knight. The trick I think with these games is to really go super slow, 1 enemy at a time, and get comfortable. After an hour, i was comfortable exploring that first area / castle Boleteria or whatever without being scared. Eventually I started taking the blue eyes knights down easier.
Then I got the boss, it looked a bit overwhelming despite its easier nature. However, i remembered that fire really messed up those blobs. And i saw a message before the boss on the ground that the one item makes your sword go on fire. I knew I had 3 options. Sword on fire, fire bombs, or eventually a magic class shooting fire easily. I had options. And I knew the weakness. I killed that boss on my first try with no death.
Now I realize that the second boss will be much much harder, but there has to be weaknesses and signs that make it not so hard. Eventually you learn to dodge the attacks somehow. I feel like it can be fair. When I take it step by step, one small enemy at a time, and get comfortable with an area, on repeat, i advance. It has been fun. I am 4-5 hours in now, advancing slowly. I don't care if I do not beat the game. I am just getting as far as I can slowly, and if I die I start to think about why I died and how to more easily beat that enemy. There has to be ways to make it easier or manageable. I noticed in the trailer that the spider boss is a matter of hitting 1-2, then running back each time when it prepares to shoot out the black oil + Fire. sure you may die a few times from its swipes cause you dont dodge, but eventually youll get into a habit of running back at the right time to avoid the fire.
Seems hard if you rush. Seems fair if you go step by step.
Hahaha. I get that and as I was writing that out, I knew some of the hardcore Souls fans would think that....... But let me learn and get better without wasting 45 mins of my time! I have a 6 month old to take care of.
Souls are not that important though. I find dying in a game that has normal saves/checkpoints much more frustrating cause you end up wondering what you didn't do yet in this save/checkpoint and such. In Souls you know what you lose and that everything you've done otherwise is kept. Losing some souls is really not that big a deal in comparison.
They have added more bonfires to the games though and I don't really have a problem with that either.
I am less motivated to play through these kind of games as well but Soulsborne normally is very motivating and satisfying. Sekiro on the other hand wasn't for me.
Honest question - why do you find these games frustrating? The Souls series is really good at teaching players an important lesson: if your current strategy isn't working, try a different one. So if you're experiencing frustration due to continual failure, stop banging your head against the wall and do something differently, or go do some other part of the game entirely.
Yea I feel the same, the hype around these games just gets to me sometimes and I end up buying them lol. But I don't like to get too frustrated playing games, I enjoy a challenge but it just becomes annoying after so many deaths. Games have engaging combat and beautiful art direction though, I just can't play these through to completion.
OP
OP
I've a pretty limited time for gaming and It's frustrating making no progress in a gaming session because everytime I died it would throw me back to the beginning and I would just end up dying to something that I had no problem before. It's really discouraging to end a gaming session knowing that you made no progress, either be losing all of your souls or not being able to beat a monster/boss.
It wouldn't be that bad if I didn't had to go through the map if I died to a boss (I know there are shortcuts, but still, it's just a waste of my already limited time and makes me do almost no progress in a gaming session)
When you die and respawn, do you go on to do things completely identically to how you did them the first time when you died? Cuz again, that's your problem. These games are about learning, and if you're not learning, you're not getting why these games are so good. And that learning is part of the progression in these games. It's not just about checking a level off the list.
OP
OP
It's really hard to learn something when you don't have 2+ hours to spare daily for it. And no, I don't do the same all again, I can do progress (on a glacial pace) but the frustration is simply not worth my mental well-being.
The Demon's Souls remake is the first Souls game that's somewhat clicked for me. I'm about 14 hours in so far. Defeating a boss is super rewarding but lordy these games are janky as shit and there are so many quality of life improvements that could be made. Losing souls is punishment enough. Having to backtrack and spend at least a few minutes rushing to the boss after each death is just arbitrarily making the game more difficult and time-consuming.
I know there likely never will be but these games need basic difficulty options. I don't want to hear that elitist shit about how it makes the games worse for "true" fans. I have a full-time job and other commitments and while I overall like Demon's Souls, there are absolutely moments where it feels less like a challenging videogame and more like a chore.
I know there likely never will be but these games need basic difficulty options. I don't want to hear that elitist shit about how it makes the games worse for "true" fans. I have a full-time job and other commitments and while I overall like Demon's Souls, there are absolutely moments where it feels less like a challenging videogame and more like a chore.
There are very, very few instances of traps or enemies that one shot you. Escaping the situation is almost always an option. Doubling back to the last bonfire because you're out of healing is always an option. You decided to push your luck and you got what you got. No need to strawman people who like the game.
In that case, I think you should fast track the learning process a little bit. Consider looking some stuff online, with regards to basic understanding of the system, general early tips and tricks, or walkthroughs for the level you're stuck on. I think that could be good to just get you going - enough to get past this rough patch anyway - and then you can continue to figure out the rest of the game yourself. You wouldn't wanna ruin that sense of learning and discovery for the entire game, but right now if it's between explicitly being told some things about how the game works, or dropping the game and never playing it again, you should seek out help before dropping the game. We also have a very active OT here with plenty of people who would love to offer advice for new players!
It isn't just the difficulty for me, it's the obscurity. That's a common gripe I have with Japanese games, though. I feel like a lot of them are still developed like they trying to sell strategy guides.
Idk, Demons Souls Remake seems wayyyyy easier than stuff like BloodBorne or Sekiro so far (I've only killed like 3 bosses). For all these games the tension lies in the exploration aspect. How far have I gone without a checkpoint, and then running into an enemy you've never seen. But mechanically the games are super simple. It's a lot harder (or it takes longer) to figure out a boss than it does to execute them. Once you know what to do you can pretty much kill them in a single try, unlike something akin to Celeste where you immediately know what to do but you die 40 times trying to execute.
You obviously, 100% get better with repeated attempts, as humans tend to do with pretty much any activity they devote themselves to. It's fine if that kind of game design doesn't appeal to you, but it doesn't make it a lie.
There are moments where these games feel like the best in the industry. There are also moments where I feel like they lack a certain something for me. They're extremely grim and, even after a successful session where I beat a boss, it can often leave me with an empty feeling.
So much of these games can be "cheesed" in so many ways that they often feel a bit clunky. But they're also highly rewarding at times especially when you find a cool hidden item while exploring.
To me, they're a very unique type of role playing game that I enjoy. But I definitely think they require breaks for me because they're rather oppressive compared to the more light hearted and fun tone of games I normally play. And I also feel a bit disappointed when I can easily win through cheesing.
So much of these games can be "cheesed" in so many ways that they often feel a bit clunky. But they're also highly rewarding at times especially when you find a cool hidden item while exploring.
To me, they're a very unique type of role playing game that I enjoy. But I definitely think they require breaks for me because they're rather oppressive compared to the more light hearted and fun tone of games I normally play. And I also feel a bit disappointed when I can easily win through cheesing.
Me too, at least I can cheese and summon my way through souls bosses. I recently started Seikro and am stuck on two bosses and think I'll give up without summons, shame as I love the setting and general gameplay.
In general it's tough to find the balance, I like difficult games but only in a certain way. Even in the same series, I find Spelunky 1 relaxing and it's sequel too frustrating. I like the patient progress in Ds1&3 but can't get into Bloodborne. Super meat boy pisses me off but love Celeste.
I beat every Soulsborne boss so I think I am well qualified in saying that it's good you gave it a shot but if it ain't for you, it ain't for you. Play something that is fun to you, I personally really enjoyed the challenge but that is how I get enjoyment out of something. Your preferences can differ and that is okay.
Play whatever is fun to you, that's kinda what video games are for given they are primarily entertainment products you acquire for the sake of, well, being entertained.
Play whatever is fun to you, that's kinda what video games are for given they are primarily entertainment products you acquire for the sake of, well, being entertained.
I don't think Souls games are generally "hard" so much as they require patience and a willingness to learn layouts and enemy attack patterns. The only parts I find legitimately difficult are the bosses, the actual stages are usually a matter of paying attention to your surroundings and not overextending into bad situations. People say "I don't see the fun in dying all the time", and well, that's exactly right. If you're playing the game properly, you'll be having fun because you won't be dying all the time (except on the bosses, but that's why levels almost always have a shortcut to the boss to make it easy to get back there).
I was playing Sekiro yesterday and I had a cool moment, I had just gotten through an area that was quite a hassle (I believe it was just after the Ashina Reservoir Idol) and required me to take on several tough enemies before reaching a miniboss with low health and no gourds. I nearly died to the boss and ran back to the checkpoint to try again, but this time I realized that now that I knew where the enemies were, I could actually take out every single one of them out with stealth kills and not have to engage them at all. I think that's the intended design of every Souls-esque level - it starts off daunting, then by the time you've reached the end you feel like you could do it again with your eyes closed.
It's fine if you don't like that style of game though, it's obviously not for everybody. I can certainly see why someone with limited gaming time would have no fun with a game that demands intense commitment with harsh punishments for failure, that's the kind of thing more suited for long play sessions.
I was playing Sekiro yesterday and I had a cool moment, I had just gotten through an area that was quite a hassle (I believe it was just after the Ashina Reservoir Idol) and required me to take on several tough enemies before reaching a miniboss with low health and no gourds. I nearly died to the boss and ran back to the checkpoint to try again, but this time I realized that now that I knew where the enemies were, I could actually take out every single one of them out with stealth kills and not have to engage them at all. I think that's the intended design of every Souls-esque level - it starts off daunting, then by the time you've reached the end you feel like you could do it again with your eyes closed.
It's fine if you don't like that style of game though, it's obviously not for everybody. I can certainly see why someone with limited gaming time would have no fun with a game that demands intense commitment with harsh punishments for failure, that's the kind of thing more suited for long play sessions.
Even if the souls aren't that big of a deal anymore, taking the time to explore only to end up losing all that time is too much for me. If any game has terrible checkpoints it's a big negative for me. I was playing Indivisbile on Game Pass the other day and holy hell the checkpoints on a boss level were terrible. It was a boss with 3 separate platforming parts and 3 separate combat parts, I died on the last combat part and had to start over. 30 mins lost. I put the controller down, deleted the game and moved on haha.
To be fair, the game that made me give up this style of games was Bloodborne. Maybe the bonfires in Dark Souls 3 are better but in Bloodborne it was quite frustrating exploring any new areas. Love the combat, love super hard bosses and figuring out how to beat them, but hate having to run through 15 mins of a level every single time you want to attempt a boss. God of War 2018 Queen Valkyrie was awesome. Super hard and challenging (for me at least) took me 2+ hours of fighting her over and over learning every move before I beat her. But the big different being as soon as I messed up and died, it loaded my checkpoint right before the fight and I tried again.
I've played through most of the Souls series but I might actually be in the same boat. For every high of triumph in combat there is an awful low of running back to a nigh-unbeatable boss, wasting minutes if not hours fighting the same mobs just to get there, then dying again. I didn't make it past halfway in either Bloodborne or Dark Souls III and every time I think about going back it's a struggle just to start them up.
I know it sounds arrogant, especially if you're currently in a save where you actually can't progress. What I'm trying to say is that being stuck in Souls games, or dying in them, is part of the experience. No one who "gitted gud" did so because they're mega awesome and just beat the boss on their first or third try. Far and away most players get stuck on these things.
I know I can't speak for anyone but I really cherish my time with Dark Souls 2 which was my first of these games. The vibe of the game kept me coming back but I just could. not. for the life of me get past the Tower of Heide or whatever it's called, with the giant knights. It's the same 3 attack patterns most of them had, but they killed me fast and I didn't kill them easily, but again, I just kept playing, maybe 2 hours every day... Shutting off. Coming home from work. Playing 2 more hours. Shutting off.
Maybe that doesn't sound fun to anyone, but the intrigue of knowing there was more to see after overcoming something challenging was there, and it should be part of the experience IMO. Respect what the developers decide to make, and if you don't, I still think it means it's not your type of game. If you're not really drawn to see what's on the other side, then why is the game still on your mind? It's telling you "Keep playing, you'll get better at it. I promise!" and you will even if it takes 50 tries and you're crying on the floor when you do it.
Just inherently being RPG's where you can grind for levels gives a pretty convenient safety valve if the game is challenging.
The fun part of the challenge is not knowing where to go or what to do.
The frustration comes from inherent bullshit in the games design. I would agree, a lot of these boss runs are total bullshit. Tower knight's bossrun is bad, especially if you don't know "how" to defeat him or are low leveled at that point. Flamerlurkers boss run is fucking atrocious and that boss is hot fucking garbage lmao. I had to go elsewhere, farm souls for levels and healing grass, come back as a tank and out DPS him.
Later games improve this with more intuitive shortcuts and better level design. It's why I was never giving any ground on this being the best souls game. Its for sure not. DS3 and Bloodborne are head and shoulders above it just by eliminating a ton of the bullshit you have to go through to get to the boss. Bloodborne still has some long boss runs, but they're much easier. DS3 would be my suggestion just for build variety compared to bloodborne if you're struggling here.
The fun part of the challenge is not knowing where to go or what to do.
The frustration comes from inherent bullshit in the games design. I would agree, a lot of these boss runs are total bullshit. Tower knight's bossrun is bad, especially if you don't know "how" to defeat him or are low leveled at that point. Flamerlurkers boss run is fucking atrocious and that boss is hot fucking garbage lmao. I had to go elsewhere, farm souls for levels and healing grass, come back as a tank and out DPS him.
Later games improve this with more intuitive shortcuts and better level design. It's why I was never giving any ground on this being the best souls game. Its for sure not. DS3 and Bloodborne are head and shoulders above it just by eliminating a ton of the bullshit you have to go through to get to the boss. Bloodborne still has some long boss runs, but they're much easier. DS3 would be my suggestion just for build variety compared to bloodborne if you're struggling here.
It feels kinda bad seeing people give up because you eventually, potentially, become such a damn beast at the games. I was able to practically speed run Bloodborne after beating it the first time despite NG+ being "harder." You just learn the ins and outs of the game so well that it becomes EZPZ. I think I got more than halfway through the game on a Dark Souls 2 SL1 run which really surprised me.
Yeah I just brought DS1 Remastered a couple weeks ago as my first Souls game. The thing is, these games do require a lot of time and effort and it eventually becomes an issue of "Do I want to keep going or do I want to go to a less frustrating game in my backlog." I'm fine with putting a pause on it for now considering I only payed $15 but I understand your frustration considering you paid $70.
I don't mind hard games, it's the specific kind of hard that the Souls games design around I dislike. It's the load screen, the journey back to the boss, only to die again. Repeat. It can take 5-10 minutes a run. It feels like I'm wasting my time. Sure I'll win eventually and probably get a feel good from it, but I spent two hours trying to beat a boss. I tried Sekiro recently and did fine until like... the third or so boss. The journey to him was absurdly long and I normally was out of healing items by the time I got to him. The enemies causing me to use healing items were right in front of him as well, so I still had a long journey to learn to counter them. I just stopped playing.
Meanwhile, I can play Ghostrunner or Hotline Miami, both hard games, and not have to deal with that shit. I die, then I reload immediately back to a super nearby checkpoint or the start of a brief level. I don't think any level in either game has held me up more than twenty minutes to half an hour. Instead of having to journey to learn from my mistakes, I go right back to where I made the mistake and try until I correct it. My time isn't being wasted.
Meanwhile, I can play Ghostrunner or Hotline Miami, both hard games, and not have to deal with that shit. I die, then I reload immediately back to a super nearby checkpoint or the start of a brief level. I don't think any level in either game has held me up more than twenty minutes to half an hour. Instead of having to journey to learn from my mistakes, I go right back to where I made the mistake and try until I correct it. My time isn't being wasted.
Good checkpoint placement is one of the many reasons I find Sekiro a better experience than Souls/BB.
S&S is massively underrated or at least not talked about enough in the genre. It's a fucking stellar game that seems to have slipped under a lot of people's radars.
And honestly I can't perfectly articulate what exactly about the Surge 2 didn't click with me, I enjoyed the first game well enough and we don't get nearly enough sci-fi laser sword style Souls games.
But man oh man The Surge 2 made me actively hate it by the time I gave up. You're not missing anything.
I think much of the difficulty is in the framing and whatnot. They are intimidating games, more so than they are actually difficult. As you say yourself, you were intimidated by them, but haven't died often in your 3-4 hour play time.
Most of the Souls games don't get much harder than their openings. Bloodborne for instance, if you can get past the cleric beast then you can most certainly beat the entire game. In Dark Souls 3, the very first boss that you meet 5 minutes into the game, is challenging enough to say that if you beat him, you probably have enough skill to beat the rest of the game.
Most my time spent in the Souls games is actually quite leisurely. Sitting on a good amount of health, walking about exploring without a tonne of real risk. I think one thing to make sure you do is pump up your health early, that'll stop you getting one shot and feeling that the game is very punishing.
For me the Souls games are as much about art and aesthetic as they are gameplay, and Salt and Sanctuary really put me off with its aesthetic, sadly.
Probably the least appealing character design I've seen in any game. I'd rather play as one of those weird things from Nidhog 2 than a character in Salt and Sactuary.
Maybe I should just look past that and give it a go... it's not like Demon's Souls characters look good either, but at least you don't have to look at them in that game.
I like a challenge but I don't like being punished? If that make a mistake. Getting thru some enemies and dying and having to get thru them all over again is... frustrating. The way souls games does it feels even more so.
Hmm...this makes me want to play Sekiro now. I really just hate having to redo something I've already completed.
This is where I'm at. The gaming loop if Soulsborne has ruined third person action games for me.
I just died twice in the Tower of Latria yesterday, due to carelessness which lead to falling down. Every time I managed to get the souls back by returning there with caution. The very same happened in 2-2 area before, the Forbidden Woods of Bloodborne, and several other places in these games. I don't think I've ever lost a meaningful amount of currency in them. In fact, I've often ended up doubling or tripling the original amount by having patience and perseverance.
It's not that I'd have some über skills, as I'm quite an average player. It's all about learning from failures, and adjusting your strategy accordingly. In that sense, failure isn't a negative thing, or a waste of time, as every time you learn and get better. However, if that mentality is an alien concept to some players, they'll obviously have better time with other kinds of games.
At least you can't lose acquired items, and have your equipment settings resetted, when you die between checkpoints, like in open world games (f.ex. Horizon Zero Dawn). That's far more annoying, and it's kinda odd I've never seen that criticized to the same extent.
Why is exploration wasted time? You've found all the items there and you know which path ultimately moves forward, so the next time you can go there right away. What's more, sometimes you have unlocked a shortcut, or at least you know which areas are safe so you can just run past enemies, knowing that they will eventually stop following you. It may be safer to kill something rather than doing a risky evasion, but there's always the option.
If you go back into every nook and cranny and fight everything on every attempt, it's no wonder why you get frustrated, because you are literally doing it wrong.
If you go back into every nook and cranny and fight everything on every attempt, it's no wonder why you get frustrated, because you are literally doing it wrong.
Sony trying to push a niche game like Demon's Souls as their flagship title for PS5 was a weird strategy. I'm sure it showcases what the console can do, but it's a matter of time until second hand stores are filled with copies of the game.
To be fair, the biggest barrier to entry to these types of games is usually their inaccessibility. When a new player bounces off one of these games, people like myself just wanna try to offer up advice to make the games more accessible, so that the new player can see just how well-crafted these games are. Sure, even after all that the game might not be relevant to the specific player's tastes, but making that judgment before overcoming the inaccessible nature of these games is premature imo.
That is true, and I understand that giving advice is good (whatever the game, mind you) if a person is not having fun with it. I meant it more in terms that when an OP says "You know what, i tried them, I searched, did everything I could to enjoy them and it's just not for me (even if they are very good)" people sometimes have this drive of.. antaonizing OP's conclusion? Which is what bothers me. Sometimes instead of saying "You tried, it isn't your thing, it's alright" a part of the fandom (it happens in every game, even games I adore, pointed out the Souls community because it's relevant to the topic) goes "Are you sure you've DONE THIS? Have you tried this x thing/y thing/n thing?".
I do not know why, but it does bother me a bit. If a game is not for someone and they have decided to put down the controller, then.. welp, what can you do.
I got to the same place in 3 hours last night as I did on all my PS3 attempts.
I am not going at these games, but chipping away is really my approach.
I am not going at these games, but chipping away is really my approach.
It depends on my mood.
Like I love the Souls franchise and a lot of hard games but I equally sometimes just want a more relaxing indie or story based title.
Like I love the Souls franchise and a lot of hard games but I equally sometimes just want a more relaxing indie or story based title.
Hopefully the influx of (maybe) complete newcomers to the game will allow me to get the trophy for invading and killing a host.
Does it count the old monk as an invasion (for DeS)?
Does it count the old monk as an invasion (for DeS)?
I still don't get why they don't just make an easy option to increase sales. Who cares what the angry fans say, they aren't buying a extra million copies of the game.
The Souls series is incredibly popular. Demon's Souls is largely niche because it was on one platform and never got updated.
This one lacks some QoL improvements from the other series, but the core of the series is still found in Demon's Souls.
I think it's a great move. If you're a big fan of the Souls series, you're going to want a PS5. It's an avid fanbase. It's a smart move, I think.
It totally is trial and error, but even trial and error can be fun if it's rewarding. And for me it always felt rewarding in souls games, but not so much in many other games.
If you get frustrated by the game you should definitely stop. I think the reason the souls games work as relaxing games for me is that I don't get frustrated by them despite me not being very good at them. I think it's because frustration for me is something that mostly happens when dealing with inconsistent controls or unreliable teammates in a multiplayer game. Which isn't something that happens in souls games. But everyone seems to be frustrated by different things.