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I've been doing a Star Wars release order rewatch with some friends, and these movies (Original Trilogy) really aren't that good.
- Thread starter Big One
- Start date
OP
OP
I dunno man Mando and Obi-wan are pretty popular with the kids. I have first hand experience with that one lol.
There IS a reason for that but I don't think it's the reason you are suggesting.
I mean your argument here is evolving from "kids wouldn't like the OT" to "kids wouldn't like Star Wars in general" and that's just... massively incorrect in a very tangible and provable way. It may not be as popular as the MCU but it's still very much relevant. Have you not noticed all of the cartoons? The toys? The ST Halloween costumes?
I was never a huge fan of ROTJ even at the time; the tone shift from ESB was too immediate. There was something about it that felt off. Too much slapstick, too much proto-JarJar kind of stuff in there. And it became too big of a story, too many moving parts. For me ANH and ESB shared more DNA.
The enduring greatness of the practical effects and real models certainly helps, but ultimately I think the reason why ANH and ESB remain above any other SW film is because of the level of acting chops of the entire cast, from the lead actors down to the Empire officers. Despite often terrible dialogue from Lucas, they made something compelling through sheer force of will and talent. And the fact that Harrison, Mark, and Carrie had genuine chemistry with each other.
People always say that and trot out some Lucas quote from an interview or something, but I'm old enough to have been in first showings of ESB and ROTJ, and they were not filled with kids. Mostly adults. They were family-friendly movies, but not targeted at kids specifically except where the toys were concerned. I don't know how anyone could say ESB was a kids movie. It was scary and dark and kind of depressing.
The enduring greatness of the practical effects and real models certainly helps, but ultimately I think the reason why ANH and ESB remain above any other SW film is because of the level of acting chops of the entire cast, from the lead actors down to the Empire officers. Despite often terrible dialogue from Lucas, they made something compelling through sheer force of will and talent. And the fact that Harrison, Mark, and Carrie had genuine chemistry with each other.
People always say that and trot out some Lucas quote from an interview or something, but I'm old enough to have been in first showings of ESB and ROTJ, and they were not filled with kids. Mostly adults. They were family-friendly movies, but not targeted at kids specifically except where the toys were concerned. I don't know how anyone could say ESB was a kids movie. It was scary and dark and kind of depressing.
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OP
OP
Huh? I enjoy the films I said it in the OP! You can enjoy films that you critique.
just because you can see the flaws, doesnt mean you dont enjoy it
I have brought peace, freedom, justice and security to my new fandom.
Exactly, the OT is that. They are fun, simple stories with a lot of heart and adventure, likable characters and great music.
This happens to me all the time (literally the last time was two weeks ago!) - I work a lot with student film makers in their 20ies, and many of them (especially women) haven't actually ever seen Star Wars. Partially bc they're not interested in Space Operas, or because the SW fandom is so obnoxious and simply repels outside people. The vast, vast majority of those who eventually watch the OT, end up loving it.
They love the central emotional drama, the thematic conflicts, the story arcs. They love the characters! EVERYBODY loves Leia! Everybody loves Han! Everybody loves Yoda! Not everybody loves Luke, but everybody feels with his character arc. And on top of that are great editing, production value, music. cinematography etcpp.
The emotional, dramatic core of the OT is deceptively simple, but SO. WELL. DONE. And it resonates until today, unfortunately unlike the stuff in the sequels.
This is a recent text message I got from one of the female students :
"If I had watched these films as a kid, I would probably have based my whole personality on Leia!"
So, in my experience its not just nostalgia. The OT are genuinely good movies.
Counterpoint: I rewatched ANH and ESB with someone (23 years old) who has never seen any of the films yesterday and yep, they are just as genius as ever. He is now a fan.
I do like Empire but I definitely dislike the original trilogy, with Episode 4 being my least favorite movie in the series. It is just impossibly boring.
Doesn't help that I don't like a single character in the original trilogy and as sequels kept releasing I went from indifference to hatred of Luke Skywalker. Never want to see him again.
Doesn't help that I don't like a single character in the original trilogy and as sequels kept releasing I went from indifference to hatred of Luke Skywalker. Never want to see him again.
You're saying that Leia wasn't attracted to Luke.
But Luke was definitely attracted to Leia. So yeah there was a love triangle.
Yeah, this is idea that the OT was made exclusively for kids is revisionist bullshit. Lucas adopted this position during the prequel era when those films got a critical drubbing.
This.
There is a reason these movies became a phenomenon and all these years later people still argue about them on a message board to this extent.
Also true.
There is so much revisionist history bullshit going on when it comes to the OT.
You can't be serious. Loads of movies hold up as good or better.
Turns out when you take a Saturday morning cartoon and apply a level of reverence and fanaticism to it reserved for Very Serious Films and/or cults, it doesn't hold up super well.
I definitely appreciate the innovation in visual effects and the fun ideas the original movies provided, but good gravy everyone has lost their minds about it since then.
I definitely appreciate the innovation in visual effects and the fun ideas the original movies provided, but good gravy everyone has lost their minds about it since then.
My ex-girlfriend hadn't seen a single Star Wars movie, so I showed her Ep IV - VI (despecialized editions).
She actually teared up in ESB when Yoda talks about what the force is.
Some of the dialogues in ESB are just so beautiful and clever. All of the banter between Leia and Han beats everything in the MCU.
She actually teared up in ESB when Yoda talks about what the force is.
Some of the dialogues in ESB are just so beautiful and clever. All of the banter between Leia and Han beats everything in the MCU.
Well said. Maybe eventually all the gaslighting that these movies were bad and we were just stupid kids will work in diminishing them but not yet. It's pretty remarkable that something apparently not that good serves as the crutch that every single SW product since, relies on for success.
Did you miss out a word...or are you just referring to the fact that there are so few space battles in Movie History, that it has one of the space battles.
Well, your personal memory of 45 years ago doesn't really trump what the creator himself said about what he was aiming for. And ESB is not scary, dark and kind of depressing for an adult. Requiem for a Dream or La Vita e Bella are scary, dark, depressing movies for adults. ESB is a family movie that's just not happy go lucky the entire runtime. So are some Pixar movies. So was Land Before Time.
Star Wars movies are space fantasy adventure movies with a superficial story, comic relief characters, some flashy action and some mild kiss on the lips type romance. None of those are bad things, none of those forbid adults from enjoying them (I do too! Currently working my way through Rebels! I'm one of the adults in the theater at first showings!). But most of the criticism for Star Wars stems from a place of adult fans just not accepting that these movies are made with kids in mind first and foremost and that adult enjoyment does not take priority when making these things. It sets expectations that Lucasfilm does not, and never has, intended to meet.
They should do animated remakes.
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I wanted to do a marathon on release order and I tapped out with Episode II. The movie is plain boring, maybe is worse than episode IX but I can't claim that since I dont really want to watch episode IX again to take a decision
Sounds to me like you 100% went into it with a specific intention of looking for flaws so you could develop a "well reasoned" opinion that diverges from the majority. Who could possibly watch those movies and think "wow, Vader could have force pushed Luke into Carbonite"? Did you miss the entire context of that scene? Goodness.
Yes, I mean the original trilogy.
To clarify, I don't think these movies are by any stretch terrible. Watching them as a 30 year old man who is kind of burnt out with a lot of the content we're seeing today, I felt like these watchthroughs have been the first time I sat down and took my nostalgia goggles off. Where to begin?
Pros:
- The special effects are legit innovative for it's time. The great thing is that all of the practical stuff still more or less holds up outside of a few hiccups here and there. The CGI added by Lucas less so (yes we watched the Special Editions lol).
- The first film essentially created the superhero film genre in a way. Star Wars Episode IV was the first MCU style movie. A movie you could go to the theater, turn your brain off and have a good time without the movie being complete shite and you have another one to look forward to in the future.
- The casting is phenomenal. Actually, the casting for all Star Wars movies are genuinely great and fitting for all the roles the characters had in these films. Will always give credit to Lucas and Disney for this.
- John Williams score does not disappoint.
- I really enjoyed the fact that Return of the Jedi was the definitive end of the franchise up to that point. No loose ends outside of maybe the fact that Episode 1-3 didn't exist at the time. It really brings closure to the franchise in a good way. No scenes that are left open for spinoff potential or anything like you see today in Star Wars media.
- I also appreciate that despite being the first film, Episode IV is more or less a complete movie. To me it stands above the rest of most other Star Wars media for this reason. It's a straight up classic just like the original Back to the Future, and it's my favorite Star Wars film to this day.
Cons:
- Outside of a few iconic scenes, the dialogue in these movies are this weird mixture of amateur hour writing, stuff that legit makes no sense in any context, to some really memorable lines spliced in here and there. The dialogue in these films really aren't great, but the actors do generally execute this stuff pretty well.
- You can tell that Lucas was making stuff along as he goes. It generally worked out in the end, but there was a lot of wonkiness such as Luke/Leia/Han being a triangular romance of sorts and then in Episode VI Leia was like, "Oh I've always known." cause apparently she has force powers now. Speaking of...
- Episode VI isn't a bad film, but it feels rushed as hell in terms of resolving everything. Yes I know the story about how George Lucas changed plans and crammed all of his ideas for Episodes VII-IX into one film, but this doesn't make the movie any better. The conflict yet again centers around a Death Star, Leia is randomly revealed to be Luke's sister, Darth Vader has "good in him" despite committing genocide on the Jedi, Han has nothing of value to do in this film whatsoever, etc. etc. I could go on and on about this.
- Here's a spicy take: I really don't think Empire Strikes Back is a GOATed movie. Don't get me wrong it's fun to watch and all that like the other two, but there's a lot of issues I have with it as well. People often cite Han's romance with Leia as being this great story character development, but watching it now in the context of today's sexual harassment scandals I can't help but to think he's being rapey throughout the entire movie. A lot of older movies from this era have this same issue where the guy essentially forces himself onto the girl, the girl doesn't want it but deep down she "really wants it" or whatever and it's seen as romantic. On top of it, Empire Strikes back doesn't really feel like a complete film to me. It feels like sequel with a lot of loose ends, a great midquel but as a standalone film it really didn't do anything for me this go around. It gets a pass because the Darth Vader "No, I am your father." twist is still one of the most iconic scenes in film history, but I actually somewhat understand why a lot of people back in 1980 came out of this film feeling dissatisfied after they watched A New Hope.
- None of the action scenes in these films really make any sense. There's a scene in Episode IV where Obi-wan literally spins around in the middle of the fight for absolutely no reason whatsoever. It gets better as it goes on but the entire time we were watching and drinking beers and whatnot my friendgroup was like, "Why didn't Vader just use the force to push Luke back in the carbonite chamber?" stuff like that. With that being said I also recognize that directing action scenes is very difficult so I don't want to dwell on this too much, just find it amusing when people treat the battles of these three films as "making more sense" than the prequels when they really don't. Maybe by a small margin.
I could probably talk more but this is the stuff that immediately stood out to me. I did enjoy watching these movies despite the critiques! I love Star Wars, but I think it's time to revise the ratings for the series on "stuff I recently watched."
Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope - 7/10
Star Wars Episode V: Empire Strikes Back - 7/10
Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi - 6/10
The Mandalorian (so far) - 7/10
The Bad Batch (so far) - 6/10
The Book of Boba Fett - 4/10
Obi-wan Kenobi (so far) - 5/10
Stuff I need to rewatch:
Prequel trilogy, Sequel trilogy, The Clone Wars, Rebels, Rogue One, Solo.
What do you guys think of these movies in today's context? Do they still hold up the same way as they did when you've watched them years ago?
You're ignoring that The Bad Batch currently exists, and is more or less a continuation of The Clone Wars which also has a sequel in Rebels. There are kids aimed content out there even if you ignore The Mandalorian, Boba Fett and Obi-Wan. Plus, kids love Baby Yoda and that's from The Mandalorian.
The OT absolutely holds up. It's still impressive imo and newer movies age a helluva lot faster. Like movies that came out within the last few years look dated while the OT can still wow you. Look at the first Avengers, hard to go back to. Hell, look at Black Panther, looks like ass already. It's timeless and the fact that we are still talking about it every day today means that it is factually timeless. It's not an opinion.
There's a moment when they are escaping Cloud City where the hyperdrive doesn't work and Lando is like "They told me they fixed it!" And Leia and Chewie look at each other and then both stare at Lando. It's such a tiny moment but so funny. The way they wrote dialogue too was different but so much more timeless somehow than modern movies. I can't really put it into words. It's like the Whedon-style of joke writing took over after the first Avengers and spread to every blockbuster.
The thing about RotJ is that it has some real lame parts but when it needs to nail it, it absolutely delivers with the finale of Luke's journey and the big ol' space battle. And that's enough to make it great imo.
There's a moment when they are escaping Cloud City where the hyperdrive doesn't work and Lando is like "They told me they fixed it!" And Leia and Chewie look at each other and then both stare at Lando. It's such a tiny moment but so funny. The way they wrote dialogue too was different but so much more timeless somehow than modern movies. I can't really put it into words. It's like the Whedon-style of joke writing took over after the first Avengers and spread to every blockbuster.
The thing about RotJ is that it has some real lame parts but when it needs to nail it, it absolutely delivers with the finale of Luke's journey and the big ol' space battle. And that's enough to make it great imo.
"Let me tell you why these movies that are considered a cultural phenomenon, and changed cinema and pop culture forever actually aren't that good."
Sure...
Eh, we'll have to agree to disagree OP.
I watched them with my dad back when they first came out.
I still watch them, although maybe only once every few years, with the knowledge of what we had at the time. They're incredible movies for the time, and I believe they absolutely 100% hold up today unless you're actively looking for problems based on today's works.
I actually put IV and V on nearly the same level for me, with Return being my "least favorite".
Out of 10 I'd go..
IV - 9
V - 9.5
VI - 8
I believe they're incredible, and put them up there with the likes of LoA ,Blade Runner, Back to the Future, Alien, etc.
I watched them with my dad back when they first came out.
I still watch them, although maybe only once every few years, with the knowledge of what we had at the time. They're incredible movies for the time, and I believe they absolutely 100% hold up today unless you're actively looking for problems based on today's works.
I actually put IV and V on nearly the same level for me, with Return being my "least favorite".
Out of 10 I'd go..
IV - 9
V - 9.5
VI - 8
I believe they're incredible, and put them up there with the likes of LoA ,Blade Runner, Back to the Future, Alien, etc.
I largely agree. As for those key scenes, yeah.... RotJ has a sick space battle (my childhood-favorite ensemble sequence) and the scene where Vader taunts Luke with turning Leia to the dark side is great.
...Yeah, I love the guy and what he gave us, but maybe don't put too much stock into what Lucas says about anything.
George Lucas Speaks Out Against Altering Films In 1988 - SlashFilm
In the 1980s, a controversy swirled in Hollywood when there was a notion to colorize black and white films. The issue made it all the way in front of Congress due in large part to the passionate backing of several important filmmakers. Eventually, their efforts helped to establish the National...
www.slashfilm.com
The fuck is this?
- Ghostbusters
- Star Trek III
- Blade Runner
- The Breakfast Club
- The Lost Boys
- Dirty Dancing
- My Neighbour Totoro
- Mad Max
- Amadeus
- Withnail & I
- The Little Mermaid
- Back to the Future
- Akira
- My Beautiful Laundrette
- Aliens
- The Terminator
- The Shining
- Die Hard
- The Thing
- Indiana Jones
- Raging Bull
I would happily put ANH and ESB in a class with something like The Adventures of Robin Hood as the pinnacle of a certain kind of adventure movie. The dialogue can be questionable, but they get by on a certain vibrancy and the cheery goodwill that they bring, rather than whatever nostalgic goodwill the audience might bring. ROTJ is an obvious step below, but even that's a clear step above every Star Wars movie (and a lot of other mega-blockbusters) since.
Don't think anyone necessarily considers them high art or masterpieces. It took inspiration from spaghetti westerns and samurai movies. But they are beloved for many reasons, as other posters have already pointed out, that go beyond simple nostalgia. For me personally, they were a gateway to loving science fiction and fantasy.
Some of the shots like with the Falcon swooping around are well done and the best part is when the Rebels enter the shaft which still holds up today. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for other parts of the battle. The background explosions look cheap and the executor crashing into the Death Star looks too much like a model going up in flames in a studio--which I know it was but it kills the illusion of a giant ship colliding with a massive space station nevertheless.
Uh, I'm speaking as someone who was a *young kid* who saw Empire Strikes Back at release. I'm not talking about the adult perspective. It is not a kids movie -- yes, young kid me found it dark, kind of scary, and depressing. Especially following up ANH, none of us were ready for that. The good guys get punched in the gut over and over and the ending is bleak. As another poster said, this was revisionist history on Lucas's part to say that they were. It doesn't hold water. Maybe by the time of ROTJ he was starting to feel that way, you can see that influence there.
I disagree. A New Hope is still an inventive, funny and tight experience, the chemistry between the characters is perfect.
Its biggest strenght is the naivety of the dialogue and the script, many fans forgot that the movie was made that way for a reason. It's not like humans were stupid in the 70's, they all saw what we are seeing today.
It's a hard sell now since people want everything to be explained and make sense, but the "magic" of the OT is really in the things you don't see.
I wish Hollywood could make moviese like these, the sequel trilogy nailed the spirit with Ep 7 and 8 but we all saw what happened later.
Regardind Ep V, I really can't see sexual harrassment there. Honestly, I see a visual a masterpiece.
The action is also perfect, just perfect.
Its biggest strenght is the naivety of the dialogue and the script, many fans forgot that the movie was made that way for a reason. It's not like humans were stupid in the 70's, they all saw what we are seeing today.
It's a hard sell now since people want everything to be explained and make sense, but the "magic" of the OT is really in the things you don't see.
I wish Hollywood could make moviese like these, the sequel trilogy nailed the spirit with Ep 7 and 8 but we all saw what happened later.
Regardind Ep V, I really can't see sexual harrassment there. Honestly, I see a visual a masterpiece.
The action is also perfect, just perfect.
...Yeah, I love the guy and what he gave us, but maybe don't put too much stock into what Lucas says about anything.
George Lucas Speaks Out Against Altering Films In 1988 - SlashFilm
In the 1980s, a controversy swirled in Hollywood when there was a notion to colorize black and white films. The issue made it all the way in front of Congress due in large part to the passionate backing of several important filmmakers. Eventually, their efforts helped to establish the National...
What a great totally relevant quote. You're totally right, George Lucas changing his mind about film altering totally means Star Wars movies aren't meant for kids!
To lead with this as your first reason why you enjoy Star Wars content tells me there's no need to go further. Star Wars doesn't sound like it's for your tastes. Trolling has become a regular hobby for many in the entertainment industry. 'I watch thing to hate on what others love because it's fun'.
OP
OP
Yeah I've only been a Star Wars fan since I was 6 what do I know.
I . . . Don't think that's what they mean. More like, how you can give your best friend a hard time because you know them and love them well.
