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subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,075
Yukukio requested a self-requested ban and it was processed as such, but I can't go over ban disputes at the moment, please understand that while I hear you, I am trying to do many different things at the moment, including coordinating with Ketkat, but you are welcome to that information, this just isn't the time. Please contact me again later. You can always contact a moderator captain regarding concerns regarding bans, this is one way that we are held transparent and accountable.
Yukiko said they did not request. They were banned an hour after that post while typing another one. The post that was made did not request a ban. How did y'all read it that way?

How about Brock?

And no. Contacting a captain in private is not a way to be held accountable.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,107
The inability to talk about mod/admin action without being banned for meta commentary definitely does not help the feeling that mods/admins are a protected class of people and that we, as members, have to toe the line. Hostility towards mods should be treated the same as hostility towards other members, but general discussion/critique of mod behavior - as long as it doesn't completely derail a thread - should be allowed. It only is ever allowed when things completely boil over like in this scenario. But it would be healthier for the forum if it was allowed in a more spread out capacity.
 

TheFurizzlyBear

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,447
Yukukio requested a self-requested ban and it was processed as such, but I can't go over ban disputes at the moment, please understand that while I hear you, I am trying to do many different things at the moment, including discussing things with Ketkat, but you are welcome to that information, this just isn't the time. Please contact me again later. You can always contact a moderator captain regarding concerns regarding bans, this is one way that we are held transparent and accountable.
I would disagree with the bolded. PMs are not transparent and accountable, none of us can see what other members of the community are being told. There needs to be more room for discussion on these things as a community instead of one on one.
 

Pedro

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,967
Sending a PM to a moderator to learn something is not what transparency is, there is no way for other users to know what it was said to me, to see if it was the same thing said to other users. And Yukiko did not request a ban.
 

Theswweet

RPG Site
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,402
California
The inability to talk about mod/admin action without being banned for meta commentary definitely does not help the feeling that mods/admins are a protected class of people and that we, as members, have to toe the line. Hostility towards mods should be treated the same as hostility towards other members, but general discussion/critique of mod behavior - as long as it doesn't completely derail a thread - should be allowed. It only is ever allowed when things completely boil over like in this scenario. But it would be healthier for the forum if it was allowed in a more spread out capacity.

Yeah - I want to apologize for bringing up any other grievances of mine, but it's like you say. We actively haven't been able to air our complaints for a long, long time.

We need to deal with this first, but there's absolutely more work to be done besides. The community deserves it.
 

TheMrPliskin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,564
Yukukio requested a self-requested ban and it was processed as such, but I can't go over ban disputes at the moment, please understand that while I hear you, I am trying to do many different things at the moment, including discussing things with Ketkat, but you are welcome to that information, this just isn't the time. Please contact me again later. You can always contact a moderator captain regarding concerns regarding bans, this is one way that we are held transparent and accountable.
Yukiko didn't request a ban though. Even if we assume that it was taken as a genuine request, why was that the only action that the mod team decided to take in the thread when people were looking for answers.

Contacting a mod captain in private is also not at all being transparent. It's a concept which people have spoken against numerous times in this thread because it's failed people already.
 
Royalan - Expanded views on ace people

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,919
Have you feelings on ace people evolved?
Yes.

When you get involved in advocacy for minority groups, one of the first things you realize is that it is a continual work. Striving to be an ally (not to be called one, because you can't give yourself that label; but to work to be one), never finishes. There's no finish line. It is a constant work to check yourself, to reflect on your biases and see them for what they are, and to strive to be better.

I was advocating for Black queer people in that thread. I was triggered by the idea that our experiences were being compared and devalued. In doing that, I devalued ace people. I don't offer that as an excuse.
 

Robin

Restless Insomniac
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,502
I'm not calling anyone out, but I feel that the apology rings rather hollow. I appreciate that action is being done, but there's still many lingering questions.

1. Did royalan's acephobia factor into any moderation decisions, such as Xaszatm's thread closure?
2. Is royalan still acephobic?
3. If so, does he have a willingness or desire to address his irrational biases?
4. If not, how have his views evolved?

I don't really feel comfortable that the actual things royalan had said, he hadn't actually acknowledged them. While he no longer has moderator power, he definitely has pull and people who respect him, and I think there's valid concern there still.

FWIW I never saw Royalan as acephobic when I was a mod which was partially why I wanted to let people know neither Kat or I were ever gunning for him.

I think that post is shitty but also two years old, and I always saw Royalan as a strong advocate for LGBT. If he says that post ain't him anymore, ok.

I don't know what to say other than that the situation sucks majorly.
 

Selbran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,567
Yukukio requested a self-requested ban and it was processed as such, but I can't go over ban disputes at the moment, please understand that while I hear you, I am trying to do many different things at the moment, including discussing things with Ketkat, but you are welcome to that information, this just isn't the time. Please contact me again later. You can always contact a moderator captain regarding concerns regarding bans, this is one way that we are held transparent and accountable.
Is this still what admins are telling themselves behind the scenes because it was refuted several times over?
 

Kemal86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,396
You can always contact a moderator captain regarding concerns regarding bans, this is one way that we are held transparent and accountable.

There is a very wide gulf between what the community views as transparent and accountable, and what the mods/admins do. And it has been that way for a very, very long time.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,107
After coming back from my first ban here, I sent a PM to an admin to understand where I went wrong. I never got a response, but it was read, according to the "last read" text. I understand admins and mods are busy, but it was only until about six months later I sent a PM to a different mod and got an actual response.

Anyway, this thread isn't about me, just an example of where I feel there is a lack of transparency, and why it's more important than ever that issues like the Ketkat ban are made very transparent, because it's obvious the community has not been given an adequate reason for her permaban.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
FWIW I never saw Royalan as acephobic when I was a mod which was partially why I wanted to let people know neither Kat or I were ever gunning for him.

I think that post is shitty but also two years old, and I always saw Royalan as a strong advocate for LGBT.

I don't know what to say other than that the situation sucks majorly.

I'm not discounting the possibility that royalan has grown, but there's also no evidence of it, not even an attempt by royalan to assert that he has grown. That makes the apology feel incredibly lacking.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
That's a great apology from Royalan as far as I'm concerned. I think there's bigger issues that the mod team needs to address and respond to as a whole though.
 

Deleted member 60096

User requested account closure
Banned
Sep 20, 2019
1,295
I would disagree with the bolded. PMs are not transparent and accountable, none of us can see what other members of the community are being told. There needs to be more room for discussion on these things as a community instead of one on one.
This, I know other forums I've been apart of in the past have had specific forums relegated for questions and complaints for staff to allow transparency
 

deepFlaw

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,491
I merely mentioned it as an example that the site has never really followed the mantra it was founded on, in that regard. I don't even feel particularly strongly about the list itself - just the act of how it was brought over without community input.

What matters more, right now, is defending the LGBTQ+ community here on Era though.

This is fair enough.

Yukukio requested a self-requested ban and it was processed as such, but I can't go over ban disputes at the moment, please understand that while I hear you, I am trying to do many different things at the moment, including discussing things with Ketkat, but you are welcome to that information, this just isn't the time. Please contact me again later. You can always contact a moderator captain regarding concerns regarding bans, this is one way that we are held transparent and accountable.

One of the things that got us this point is that contacting staff in private, and constantly being encouraged to do so, is seen as unhelpful for these issues. It would be worth finding a better way to handle feedback than that.

Not to mention the time I can think of when someone was banned for posting the contents of those PMs after their concerns were dismissed.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
Yes.

When you get involved in advocacy for minority groups, one of the first things you realize is that it is a continual work. Striving to be an ally (not to be called one, because you can't give yourself that label; but to work to be one), never finishes. There's no finish line. It is a constant work to check yourself, to reflect on your biases and see them for what they are, and to strive to be better.

I was advocating for Black queer people in that thread. I was triggered by the idea that our experiences were being compared and devalued. In doing that, I devalued ace people. I don't offer that as an excuse.
Look, if that post was brought up without the context of the issues going around, there would have been a lot more benefit of the doubt. I appreciate that sometimes we make stupid hurtful posts that are regrettable, I sure as hell have. It was the context of current event that made it what it was. I appreciate that you're engaging and hope that this doesn't sour you.
 

aerie

wonky
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
8,028
Yukiko said they did not request. They were banned an hour after that post while typing another one. The post that was made did not request a ban. How did y'all read it that way?

How about Brock?

And no. Contacting a captain in private is not a way to be held accountable.
This is the post by Yukiko where they requested a ban, https://www.resetera.com/posts/26600074/. It was later seen by someone associated with them that this was done in error, and reversed.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,440
This is maybe not surprising as IIRC you first entered this discussion to complain about the banned games list, but as always: the problem being discussed in these threads is the lack of moderation, absolutely not that there's too much of it.

To be abundantly clear, as some people are jumping off of my post: no where was I advocating a blanket "rah rah down with the authority!" attitude. I do not want my post hijacked by bad faith actors.

I agree with you that -- while there are isolated cases of poor moderation choices -- the frustration pent up in the community, and specifically the LGBT+ community, is not at there being too much moderation. Usually quite the opposite.

What I think Theswweet was more getting at with that example was the lack of democratization and transparency from the outset, both of which Era would benefit immensely from, as they're the root causes of most of the exasperation with staff.

I haven't said anything publicly yet. I've been given permission to speak openly and honestly now, and respond to people.

But first, an apology.

To the Resetera community at large; I am sorry.

To the Resetera Mod team who are now being held responsible for my words; I am sorry.

To the NB/Asexual/Trans community that has been made to feel devalued and erased by my words; I am sorry.

To the Black and Queer communities who looked to me to advocate for them; I am sorry.

I will be stepping down.

If there is anything else that people want me to respond to? I am currently able.

Thanks for this. I respect you and all you've done, and understand last night and today must be challenging and upsetting for you on a personal level. None of us is perfect, and growth comes from mistakes.

It's good to hear your views have positively evolved with hindsight. Regardless of you stepping down, which I think is prudent in context, hopefully you remain a part of the community and don't let these events weigh too heavily on you. Please don't feel like no one wants you here.

so royalan stepped down. which mod(s) banned yukiko and brock? since The Woods says a ban is a team thing, we should be knowing who voted yes on their bans.

Frankly, I believe them when they say yukiko's ban specifically was just a poorly timed reading comprehension gaffe. Mistakes genuinely do happen.

Brock's post was hyperbolic, but there was a kernel of truth there, particularly from the public perspective, and he should be unbanned.
 

TheFurizzlyBear

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,447
This is the post by Yukiko where they requested a ban, https://www.resetera.com/posts/26600074/. It was later seen by someone associated with them that this was done in error, and reversed.
That is not a request. It's an expected outcome of speaking out against Mod Staff. Most people here believe they will be banned for criticizing staff since there is a history of it.
Edit: Every member of this forum can clearly see that context and the fact that mods cant really shows the huge disconnect here.
 

Deleted member 4532

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,936
Yes.

When you get involved in advocacy for minority groups, one of the first things you realize is that it is a continual work. Striving to be an ally (not to be called one, because you can't give yourself that label; but to work to be one), never finishes. There's no finish line. It is a constant work to check yourself, to reflect on your biases and see them for what they are, and to strive to be better.

I was advocating for Black queer people in that thread. I was triggered by the idea that our experiences were being compared and devalued. In doing that, I devalued ace people. I don't offer that as an excuse.
I'm happy in your willingness to evolve. Most of us, myself included, are ashamed by our past selves but pushing ourselves, learning and growing is the only way forward.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,075
This is the post by Yukiko where they requested a ban, https://www.resetera.com/posts/26600074/. It was later seen by someone associated with them that this was done in error, and reversed.
How is a mod allowed to see that post and actually see it as a self-requested ban? How come no other mods said (cause you said other mods weigh in on bans), said the obvious, "that doesn't sound legit people".

Also, Yukiko only got unbanned because they were able to tell someone on discord. they'd still be banned if they didn't do that.
 

Deleted member 4367

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,226
I haven't said anything publicly yet. I've been given permission to speak openly and honestly now, and respond to people.

But first, an apology.

To the Resetera community at large; I am sorry.

To the Resetera Mod team who are now being held responsible for my words; I am sorry.

To the NB/Asexual/Trans community that has been made to feel devalued and erased by my words; I am sorry.

To the Black and Queer communities who looked to me to advocate for them; I am sorry.

I will be stepping down.

If there is anything else that people want me to respond to? I am currently able.
You were given permission to speak openly?

In what world should that be necessary.
 

Aiii

何これ
Member
Oct 24, 2017
8,176
Yes.

When you get involved in advocacy for minority groups, one of the first things you realize is that it is a continual work. Striving to be an ally (not to be called one, because you can't give yourself that label; but to work to be one), never finishes. There's no finish line. It is a constant work to check yourself, to reflect on your biases and see them for what they are, and to strive to be better.

I was advocating for Black queer people in that thread. I was triggered by the idea that our experiences were being compared and devalued. In doing that, I devalued ace people. I don't offer that as an excuse.
Thank you for this.
 

deepFlaw

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,491
This is the post by Yukiko where they requested a ban, https://www.resetera.com/posts/26600074/. It was later seen by someone associated with them that this was done in error, and reversed.

So, regardless of the fact that thinking that's a ban request is a horrible misreading of that post - is there a reason why the mods involved gave the ban then?

In my opinion the issue is not just that it was misread to begin with. It'd also that someone decided to do the banning when there wasn't really any staff presence in the thread, making the ban into the only staff presence. That in itself was a bad decision.

EDIT: Which is generally my problem with how the staff has handled tense situations. A lot of the time it feels like there's 0 consideration put into how individual actions represent the staff as a whole. Things in the past like other moderators showing up to joke around as if they're not also mods who could answer things comes to mind.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
Yes.

When you get involved in advocacy for minority groups, one of the first things you realize is that it is a continual work. Striving to be an ally (not to be called one, because you can't give yourself that label; but to work to be one), never finishes. There's no finish line. It is a constant work to check yourself, to reflect on your biases and see them for what they are, and to strive to be better.

I was advocating for Black queer people in that thread. I was triggered by the idea that our experiences were being compared and devalued. In doing that, I devalued ace people. I don't offer that as an excuse.

This is a better apology.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Yes.

When you get involved in advocacy for minority groups, one of the first things you realize is that it is a continual work. Striving to be an ally (not to be called one, because you can't give yourself that label; but to work to be one), never finishes. There's no finish line. It is a constant work to check yourself, to reflect on your biases and see them for what they are, and to strive to be better.

I was advocating for Black queer people in that thread. I was triggered by the idea that our experiences were being compared and devalued. In doing that, I devalued ace people. I don't offer that as an excuse.
I just want to say this is great to see. No one is perfect and no one needs to be dammed for eternity for a mistake. But it means a lot to people to know that someone can admit fault, and treat it as a learning experience while moving forward. Im glad you chose to stick around and stay here to address concerns while not making excuses.
 

aerie

wonky
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
8,028
That is not a request. It's an expected outcome of speaking out against Mod Staff. Most people here believe they will be banned for criticizing staff since there is a history of it
I apologize, and will later apologize to Yukiko. I'm sure you can understand the team are a little overloaded, and while we try to be sensitive to every issue, we can, as you can see, make mistakes. I think they saw the post with them ending it as requesting a ban. It wasn't done in malice, and quickly reversed when seen to be an error.
 

bawjaws

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,573
This is the post by Yukiko where they requested a ban, https://www.resetera.com/posts/26600074/. It was later seen by someone associated with them that this was done in error, and reversed
As has been mentioned, and confirmed by the poster themselves, this was not a request to be banned.

And this has already been discussed at length on this thread, so I'm not sure why you're now trying to say that it is something that it wasn't.
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,919
You were given permission to speak openly?

In what world should that be necessary.
It wasn't necessary.

I want it to be clear that I always had permission to say whatever I want. From the very top.

But I asked to speak anyway, out of respect for the mod team, and the desire to not make the situation worse. I'm sorry that wasn't clearer.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,075
I apologize, and will later apologize to Yukiko. I'm sure you can understand the team are a little overloaded, and while we try to be sensitive to every issue, we can, as you can see, make mistakes. I think they saw the post with them ending it as requesting a ban. It wasn't done in malice, and quickly reversed when seen to be an error.
so wait, mods don't have to consult other mods on self requested bans? hmm
 

aerie

wonky
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
8,028
As has been mentioned, and confirmed by the poster themselves, this was not a request to be banned.

And this has already been discussed at length on this thread, so I'm not sure why you're now trying to say that it is amending that it wasn't.
There have been a lot of moving pieces, including internally, and I'm still reviewing the last 8 hours or so, as well as trying to be here and engage with the community, as a staff member, and member of this community.
so wait, mods don't have to consult other mods on self requested bans? hmm
Please don't twist my words, it was processed by the available team at the time.
 

TheMrPliskin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,564
So, regardless of the fact that thinking that's a ban request is a horrible misreading if that post - is there a reason why the mods involved gave the ban then?

In my opinion the issue is not just that it was misread to begin with. It'd also that someone decided to do the banning when there wasn't really any staff presence in the thread, making the ban into the only staff presence. That in itself was a bad decision.
It's also kind of wild that mods don't have to consult or double check with the member before actioning a supposed self requested ban like that.
 

Yukiko™

Member
Oct 25, 2017
563
For like the ten thousandth time, as clear as possible:

I DID NOT REQUEST A SELF BAN

my post could've been worded better but my intention should be clear; I was anticipating to be banned for speaking out
 

Maximus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,586
Yukukio requested a self-requested ban and it was processed as such, but I can't go over ban disputes at the moment, please understand that while I hear you, I am trying to do many different things at the moment, including discussing things with Ketkat, but you are welcome to that information, this just isn't the time. Please contact me again later. You can always contact a moderator captain regarding concerns regarding bans, this is one way that we are held transparent and accountable.

This is part of the problem, there is no transparency or holding anyone accountable. The fact you think that is part of the problem. Nothing is transparent and how can anyone be held accountable when threads are instantly locked and people are banned when things are pointed out or questioned? Posts by mods and admins in this thread continue the line of thinking of "us vs them" instead of all of us as one community working together.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,075
also i think an eta on when an official response to all of this will be out. currently it's just a bunch of "we are sorry and listening stuff". a time would be nice.
 

Theswweet

RPG Site
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,402
California
I always thought you'd have to DM a mod for a self-requested ban? Why the hell are mods taking public posts as an invitation to ban people? Y'all are saying to take grievances to DMs, but are using posts as an excuse to "self-ban" people?
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
So, just spitballing here, but how about this as an idea for complaints about moderation decisions:
I think we can all agree that responding to piles and piles of complaints about bans and moderation where >50% of them will just be shit explaining away bigotry and the like would be soul crushing. And that a completely open complaint forum would likely be a cluster fuck. The site also likely makes a positive amount of income.

How about hiring someone to screen the complaints for mod review, and hotly contested moderation decisions are posted to a mod-only publicly viewed forum. Responses to those posts could go through the screening process.

I dunno just a random idea.
 

bawjaws

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,573
There have been a lot of moving pieces, including internally, and I'm still reviewing the last 8 hours or so, as well as trying to be here and engage with the community, as a staff member, and member of this community.
I'm not trying to get on your back here, but if I were you, I'd get up to speed first and then speak out second. Better than going off half-cocked and inflaming what is already a contentious situation.
 

aerie

wonky
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
8,028
For like the ten thousandth time, as clear as possible:

I DID NOT REQUEST A SELF BAN

my post could've been worded better but my intention should be clear; I was anticipating to be banned for speaking out
I apologize, Yukiko - it was done in error. It had nothing to do with your post as a whole. Solely for that specific line, which was misread as you requesting a ban.
 

Fireblend

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,454
Costa Rica
At the very least mods should PM a user and confirm their intentions of being banned before acting on posts like that. It's hard not to picture this as someone being a bit too trigger happy, reading that line and acting immediately to ban the user.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,440
It's also kind of wild that mods don't have to consult or double check with the member before actioning a supposed self requested ban like that.

One imagines that most self-requested bans are emphatic and clear-cut. This one wasn't, but I understand how the reading mistake was made in the tumult of last night.

Yukiko is now unbanned and apologized to. This is one plot thread I don't see much constructive benefit toward pursuing. Let's keep focus on the more important issues.
 

TheFurizzlyBear

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,447
I apologize, and will later apologize to Yukiko. I'm sure you can understand the team are a little overloaded, and while we try to be sensitive to every issue, we can, as you can see, make mistakes. I think they saw the post with them ending it as requesting a ban. It wasn't done in malice, and quickly reversed when seen to be an error.
Thanks for the apology but the ban was only a symptom of the real problem. We all understand the mod staff are human but they need to understand that they serve for the betterment of the forum and not the punishment of the forum. It was a "shoot first, ask questions later" situation which should never be the case. The moderation standard here has not only robbed Trans-Era of a week of celebration and awareness but has dragged down the reputation of this forum with the members that make up the place.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,075
I apologize, Yukiko - it was done in error. It had nothing to do with your post as a whole. Solely for that specific line, which was misread as you requesting a ban.
How come the mod didn't consult other mods like they are supposed to? could have been averted if said mistake making mod asked another and theuy said, "you're drunk, friend, that's not a request to be banned"