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It's Trans Awareness Week! (Nov 13th -19th)
- Thread starter Kyuuji
- Start date
Wow, this is heartbreaking to read. I'm sure it required a lot of energy and courage to write it, so kudos to that, maximum support. I have not had a similar experience so I can't help you specifically dealing with these issues, but if there's anything you feel like talking about, my PM's always open. Fuck people that tried to destroy you for who you are, no exceptions. I hope you'll find a peaceful and safe place, here or elsewhere.
Exactly. That kind of post coming right after how straightforward and honest Hecht has been is a bad look.
I really hope there are more staff like Hecht and Nepenthe than otherwise.
1. The specific problem people are having is not only what was said, but that it was said by the mod who closed the previous thread and continued to deny that such a person could even be on the mode team (even if they're apparently not the mod that was being talked about). And they also mentioned Ketkat having done "hacking" before editing a post, introducing more misinformation and distrust. Some may think the post itself is bad enough, which is fair, but that was not the only thing happening here or being cited as an issue with that mod. People can surely change over 2 years, yeah, but it's not surprising that people aren't taking their recent posts in good faith right now.
2. I don't think "doesn't this suck when people do these things to you? hmmmmmmm?" is a fair or particularly kind response to what people are going through here. Are you seriously making comparisons between real world oppression and thinking someone shouldn't be a forum moderator?
EDIT: Like, thinking this through more: Don't take it as calling for your head when I say that I would honestly hope a non-mod would get a warning if they posted something like this, at least. It's so dismissive.
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There is absolutely room for change and for growth. Buuuut...
....doesn't this also go for, say, Ketkat? It shouldn't just be moderators that have the opportunity to grow, while a critic is banned, sometimes under outright false pretenses (cf Yukikos ban).
An opportunity to grow should also be given to critics (especially those whose entire "crime" was referring to something in the side part of a paragraph without naming names. The response to this was ABSURDLY over the top from an outside perspective).
This includes not immediately running in and claiming that the critic abused their girlfriend or hacked, no? There's no room for growth if one side is silenced, while the other is allowed to claim things that seem wildly off base unchallenged, then later goes and edits the evidence away. If you, as the mod team, have to change the story why Ketkat got banned three times, it gets less and less credible every time, too - and it gets harder every time to listen to calls that the mod team should be allowed to grow and face zero consequences for the actions. It's a good sentiment, of course, but it needs to be applied to more than moderators.
I really get how hard modding is, I've done it myself and will never do it again as a consequence. The sludge you have to wade through to do it is sickening sometimes. It's not an enviable position, and definitely deserves thanks. And I am pretty sure that even many of the people angry at you still appreciate the work you do.
But the work isn't above criticism. The anger you've got on your hands isn't because a mod made a crappy comment.
The problem is not the mean community coming for an innocent mod that made bad comments years ago.
Definitely not just you.
Going forward, the intent here is to address the issues with the community. Considering the brunt of this thread has been calling out mods for everything, I don't think it's unreasonable for them to come forward with some context in their actions or how this stuff makes them feel. That doesn't diminish the things that are being called out here - we are listening and working towards it (see my past staff post as to why there's currently a delay). We understand that the issues presented in the thread are the focus, and we are discussing that, but there are points where it feels like members are thinking of staff as "the other" and not people.
Again, we're listening, and working on addressing it. It weighs on the hearts of each member of staff, the events that have taken place here, and in the end we just want to make this a place for all of you.
Again, we're listening, and working on addressing it. It weighs on the hearts of each member of staff, the events that have taken place here, and in the end we just want to make this a place for all of you.
I appreciate the response and understand your position. I haven't had any problems with your posts. Mods are people too, and they work a hard and thankless job. But in a thread that has basically gone off the rails into become a meta discussion about how the mods have disappointed the community on LGBT issues, especially regarding the permabanned nature of a popular poster, it is hard to not feel like posts like that are trying to deflect some sort of blame onto the community. I'm sure they're not meant with hostility, but they don't come across well.
This thread might be a better place to discuss user/mod relationships:
You diminish the things that are being called out here by making this more about the staff's feelings than addressing concerns and acting. I would rather see action and changed behaviour than be emotionally manipulated into being more patient and understanding. post this in a different thread. Posting it here without actions only servers to further minimize our concerns.
This has blown up like it has not just because of KetKat, but also because trans topics have been cesspools of transphobic drive-bys or JAQ'ing, and that as a result the trans community has felt othered not just by members but also by staff. So mods coming in here and making a trans topic about them, particularly under these circumstances, is just gonna rub people the wrong way. It's yet another hijack of their topic and their hurt.
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This whole situation has been messed up. Why was Yukiko banned? Why can mods seemingly get away with acephobia and intolerance, banning people, changing the reason for the bans, and then come in here and tell us how hard it is? Why can't we just know what happened, and the appropriate people get punished?
Fair enough.
The people we need to talk to regarding this are asleep. We are committed to figuring it out - this isn't about being patient while we deliberate, it's being patient because of people not being awake. But like the post above, fair enough, the other thread might be better for that sort of thing.
you're at least the second mod who isn't Royalan who's willing to jump in front of the bus for him. how hard would it have been for him to be like "yeah i said that shit and it was bad, i fucked up, sorry" in the ensuing hours you've been taking the hits for him
All right this is my last one because I definitely need to get some sleep, it's late as hell for me.
I know there have been some concerns regarding trans threads before. We have several trans members on staff that are most definitely consulted when it comes to trans issues. Are there things we can do better? Sure, and we're hoping to get to that point. However, part of that is that moderation is inherently reactive - we can't ban someone for a post before they make it. Like any thread, if a drive-by happens by some asshole, we can't actually do anything about it before the post itself is made. I'm hoping we can do better at catching patterns before they become more prominent, but it's not an exact science.
The other stuff, we're working on.
I know there have been some concerns regarding trans threads before. We have several trans members on staff that are most definitely consulted when it comes to trans issues. Are there things we can do better? Sure, and we're hoping to get to that point. However, part of that is that moderation is inherently reactive - we can't ban someone for a post before they make it. Like any thread, if a drive-by happens by some asshole, we can't actually do anything about it before the post itself is made. I'm hoping we can do better at catching patterns before they become more prominent, but it's not an exact science.
I've seen user-requested bans handed out for similarly worded "requests," and that's pretty much how it happened. Someone saw it, thought it was legit, and did it. Thankfully we found out after that it wasn't serious and reversed it. It wasn't malicious, it's just that we've seen that sort of thing before.
The other stuff, we're working on.
Thanks. I myself love our community. This site is like a second home to me. I want it thrive.
Given the reasoning for Ket's perma was changed T H R E E times, I honestly can't believe you
Folks, I don't want or need any sympathy, nor am I seeking it. It's not about me. It really has been about supporting you.
I am listening to you and reading your posts. All I am pointing out is that there are things, and people, that get in the way of supporting you most effectively sometimes, and no one should tolerate that. I'm not going to go further on that, like I said I am not going to embarrass anyone.
I also cannot give a team response to you at this time, as I am speaking as myself here. Hecht has though, just above. But it's obvious to me Yukiko's ban not the right thing to do, and had the worst timing ever. I wish I was on duty at the time and could have attempted to weigh in on it.
lacer, I am not referring to Royalan at all in my post.
Perhaps you will be receptive to my words another time. Perhaps you will not. I will continue reading the responses either way. Thank you.
I am listening to you and reading your posts. All I am pointing out is that there are things, and people, that get in the way of supporting you most effectively sometimes, and no one should tolerate that. I'm not going to go further on that, like I said I am not going to embarrass anyone.
I also cannot give a team response to you at this time, as I am speaking as myself here. Hecht has though, just above. But it's obvious to me Yukiko's ban not the right thing to do, and had the worst timing ever. I wish I was on duty at the time and could have attempted to weigh in on it.
lacer, I am not referring to Royalan at all in my post.
Perhaps you will be receptive to my words another time. Perhaps you will not. I will continue reading the responses either way. Thank you.
I also appreciate an admin coming in here and engaging but like I said a lot of these issues have been brewing for months and months. It is terrible that so many people in this community have come forward this last week and said they have felt unsafe for some time.
Saying " we have lgbt mods"'isn't good enough anymore, people need to step up or step down
The intent wasn't to say that we are totally-and definitely-perfect, it was mostly to counter the idea that we don't seek out a diverse staff. Of course there is always room for improvement.
(Ok seriously going to bed)
Just to be clear, Ketkat's ban message was changed once while she was in the review process, just to better reflect the concerns. Alterations to banners, while not always made, are standard procedure while someone is in review.
Era can either be a safe, welcoming place for marginalized people, or it can be a place that treats people with shitty, bigoted views gently in the interest of "change". It can't be both. These are mutually exclusive, because tolerating bigotry means this is not a welcoming place for marginalized people. So pick one.
I'm not going to touch the rest of that post which smacks of martyrdom and an adversarial relationship with the community you moderate. Maybe work on that.
lol okay in that case i am fascinated by who you meant by who the person we need to 'give an opportunity to change before airing out their dirty laundry' is . sweet dreams
It's taken a bit to catch up on everything (and new posts keep popping up as I type this), but christ. The horrible irony of this all happening in Trans Awareness Week. As other users have also expressed, I'm extremely against the bans for both Brock and KetKat, especially considering all KetKat has done for the community. I'm glad Yukiko's account was reinstated, and hope the other two follow.
All my love and support to to both the trans and ace community on Era. You deserve to feel safe, and to have your voices heard. I'm sorry that hasn't been the case, and has gotten worse as of late. While the thread frustratingly took a horrible turn, thank you to Kyuuji for making the Trans Awareness Week in the first place, and for sharing so many important articles and resources.
Fantastic post, and I seriously hope the suggestions are taken under advisement.
All my love and support to to both the trans and ace community on Era. You deserve to feel safe, and to have your voices heard. I'm sorry that hasn't been the case, and has gotten worse as of late. While the thread frustratingly took a horrible turn, thank you to Kyuuji for making the Trans Awareness Week in the first place, and for sharing so many important articles and resources.
Fantastic post, and I seriously hope the suggestions are taken under advisement.
Properly better to display those changes in the future. Either giving the histroy of the changes or display, that there is a review process. Properly would help people to understand the decision. Also give members (long time users) a chance to defend them self in some way (i was once banned and the "Contact Us" formula gave me no answer).
Perhaps the ban message itself was, but we also had Royalan claim that the reason she was permanently banned was "hacking". From the inside, maybe things seem very clear cut, but from the outside, it looks like the reason itself has changed several times. To a lot of us, it seems as though her ban came first, and the (inconsistent) reason came later.
This is something i noticed too even as a non-LGBT+:
. . . . it does seem like some PR company ran a massive campaign in social media this year targetting transgender people. The ones i often see is how transgenders participating in women sports are purposely 'cheating'.
. . . . it does seem like some PR company ran a massive campaign in social media this year targetting transgender people. The ones i often see is how transgenders participating in women sports are purposely 'cheating'.
Would be easy and over with if it could just be "mistakes were made because modding is hard", but I fear they're completely convinced that it's mostly "modding is hard because the community makes it hard by second guessing our mostly correct decisions".
Oh well, we'll see when the official response goes up. And it is fair to take their time on that.
Just so you know transgenders isn't a word, I think most people would be satisfied with just saying Trans people
Well judging by the responses from some of the mods and admins in here I'm not expecting anything worth while to come of this.
If it isn't just some hollow statement than I'll be shocked.
If it isn't just some hollow statement than I'll be shocked.
OP
OP
The issue isn't staff coming in to share their views. It's that they (broad use - not all) persistently lack an acknowledgent of what trans members on the forum put up with for months in threads surrounding them and their issues. That these became the least accessible places for trans people to discuss their concerns.
Jumping in to talk about how the discontent that has been expressed as a consequence of the above has reduced staff morale and made them upset, while ignoring that context behind the emotion, is poor. Yet it happened in the first staff post. It happened in the second, and it's still happening.
This didn't come out of nowhere and far more words have been written asking for the consideration of staff feelings, than have for the people that had to endure that failure in general moderation for those months.
Jumping in to talk about how the discontent that has been expressed as a consequence of the above has reduced staff morale and made them upset, while ignoring that context behind the emotion, is poor. Yet it happened in the first staff post. It happened in the second, and it's still happening.
This didn't come out of nowhere and far more words have been written asking for the consideration of staff feelings, than have for the people that had to endure that failure in general moderation for those months.
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Era lost a great deal when you stepped down.
I simply couldn't see this playing out like this if people like you were still involved.
Listen to this post if nobody else Admin team.
So lots of stuff happened while I was asleep I see. I've been following this since Ket got banned.
Honestly, not a whole lot I can say that hasn't already been said. I think SweetNicole 's post was very good and should be seriously looked at by staff.
I also want to thank Nepenthe for their posts in here and for not shying away from the conversations here.
As the MafiEra community knows full well, I suck at articulating myself so I won't say much else as it would just be an utter mess that'd probably end in a ban haha. (no, I do not want banned...)
So I'll leave it with this
UNBAN Ketkat.
Honestly, not a whole lot I can say that hasn't already been said. I think SweetNicole 's post was very good and should be seriously looked at by staff.
I also want to thank Nepenthe for their posts in here and for not shying away from the conversations here.
As the MafiEra community knows full well, I suck at articulating myself so I won't say much else as it would just be an utter mess that'd probably end in a ban haha. (no, I do not want banned...)
So I'll leave it with this
UNBAN Ketkat.
That's one of my big issues and that it's still happening isn't giving me any confidence in the staff.
User Banned (Permanent): Transphobia; Prior Severe Ban for Rationalizing Bigotry
I wouldn't say cheating, but there is a reason, why male and female athletes are separated. Male bodies most of the time have a physical advantage over woman's bodies. What gender you identify with, doesn't change the nature of your physical body.
This creates an philosophical problem, since woman, who were born with a male body, could keep there natural advantage, which would be unfair for woman, who were born with a woman's body. Do we sort people, how they were born or how they are identify with now?
We group people in different section, since they have different limits. So "woman" and "male" disciplines are technical just limit-group names to begin with. Maybe those groups needs to be updated and have more sections, similar to weight classes in boxing.
Mods can feel however they wish, but sharing that here only serves to make it sound we should care more about their feelings of inadequacy over our treatment than our treatment itself. In any other thread with consequences less impactful to individual users this would be par for course. But many of the responses by staff here read as very tone deaf. This is one of those situations where we need some space to be honest about how our community is treated here. Trying to treat like a moderation issue and not a human issue appears to be the fundamental disconnect between the staff and the complaints I have read. Hopefully they can take some space to sleep, reboot, and see that with fresh eyes whenever they wake up.
I'm... tired... of getting the "we promise to be better" response to criticism from the staff. Of course the feeling behind it is true, but when you say this over and over and avoidable mistakes like these keep happening it just starts ringing hollow. The moderation could do with removing that sort of sentence from their vocabulary and finding ways to talk with the users that inspire more trust and lets them be held accountable.
Since this is a new day, I'll quote what I said here in previous pages and still want an answer to
Since this is a new day, I'll quote what I said here in previous pages and still want an answer to
Smfh, not only is this not true, but get out of this thread of all places with it. Do some research on why trans women aren't all dominating the field in every sport we're allowed in
Firstly. Thank you for making an attempt at some public discussion. I have more than a few words to say, which we'll get to now, but I want to make sure you know that I achnowledge this attempt at a first step.
Hecht. I've had this discussion with you before, and things clearly haven't changed since then. I can't speak to first-hand knowledge, but I'm sure you've had this disucssion many separate times with far more people than just me. This is not a valid excuse. You-- right now-- are not valid. Making it all about yourselves and how hard it is to do us right as if it's all our fault is part of what lead to these threads needing to be made, because as it stands, Era staff are fairly navel gazy. You cannot in one hand ask for us to see things from your side and in the other refuse to even achnowledge ours.
So let me ask you, for when you wake up and have had time to wake up. What's different? What makes this arrangement of words any more impactful than the last time the admins have had them said through whatever mouthpiece? You can say "We're listening" all you want, but there's no historical record to support that statement, just dozens upon dozens of reiterations of itself. There's closed discussions with nothing changing on endless repeat for two years while more and more people grow increasingly dissatisfied with the quality of moderation. Moreover, you say that it's the members that are thinking of staff as "The other", but time and time again, it's proven to be the other way around. What you're doing right now is called projection.
I get that the idea of instant responses and perfect responses is something that some members want out of you. That's not possible, and we both know that it's not possible. But you're using those members and those arguments as a shield against legit criticism and as a result the discussion never moves forward from there. You can't make instant, or perfect responses-- but there is precious little stopping you from making even adequate responses. And making adequate responses would shut a lot of these people up. So, why the resistance? Why did it need to take all of this for this discussion to even happen in the first place? Again, perfection isn't the bar here. I know I can't speak for others with this but I don't even need total transparency. I feel like what the staff have done wrong here is something that would have been obvious had someone taken the time to step back and cool down before rashly making actions that they then had to work backwards from in justificaiton.
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I'm not really qualified to discuss this (still reading some stuff). But see this:
. . . . the general gist is that:
It's two in the morning and I don't typically get involved in these sorts of threads as most of my participation on these forums is isolated, but Ketkat was a member of basically the only community I regularly post in, so I feel the need to say something about this as both someone who respects her and as someone who's a part of the LGBT umbrella.
I've sat back and watched pretty much every trans issues thread that's been posted in the last couple of months, opting to not post in them as I'm not trans and it's not my place to talk for our other users who are, and honestly I don't feel very qualified to speak up about trans issues in general other than to offer unbridled support for everyone who's trans. If not for posters like Ket or Kyuuji, many people on this board would know basically nothing about what being trans looks or feels like on a daily basis. I've personally not understood the response some threads get from staff here, but as someone who's kept a low profile on the forum, I've stayed out of it.
But it appears from the course of this thread that staff does not appear to be listening to the voices they need to be listening to, so here I am to emphasize the point that there are members of this forum that do not condone this response to what Ket originally posted, or the follow up responses to the incident.
The trans community on this forum is such a pillar, I've read enough threads and hangouts at this point to see that, and in the span of a few weeks it feels like the staff have eroded every last supporting structure of that pillar in order to protect rules and structure while not considering how the system itself is conducive to allowing abuse to our trans members. Era's members are smart, they know exactly how close to the line they can toe it or how to post alt right opinions on the sly, while directing that straight at vulnerable minorities here. I've watched it happen repeatedly with no punishment doled out while it falls on the trans community to continue to burden the "polite" abuse.
And now staff have come down extremely heavy handed on a truly remarkable user here for daring to converse about moderation topics with their S/O? Was that really not accounted for or considered when setting up these secret Discord servers? What? It should be assumed by anyone in those sort of spaces that their conversations might be shared with spouses or partners. Yes, your privacy is important, but I'm gonna tell my partner about everything I'm doing and talking to and if I find myself in a troubling conversation with emotional fallout, who the heck do you think I'm talking to work through it? Like, my professional career involves dealing with information protected by HIPAA, but if I find myself dealing with an upsetting situation, I'm telling my partner all about it, because he's there for me to confide in. And like, I get that it's upsetting to find out that people you weren't expecting to see stuff may have heard about something, but that's hardly a good reason to swing a permanent ban down on someone who is in extremely good faith trying to help staff better themselves on how to handle trans issues on a forum that honestly has a horrible track in this area.
It's really a shame to see, I don't have many posts on the forum but I have been here and watched the site since it launched as a response to staff of somewhere else doing some heinous shit. And now it's just staff on the new place being shitty in a new way, extremely resistant to difficult but honest truths about toxic behaviors that basically all of us grew up with. I'd like to hope that staff will reverse the decisions they're making here, but I've also watched this play out on many, many different sites, and it's getting sadly predictable.
I've sat back and watched pretty much every trans issues thread that's been posted in the last couple of months, opting to not post in them as I'm not trans and it's not my place to talk for our other users who are, and honestly I don't feel very qualified to speak up about trans issues in general other than to offer unbridled support for everyone who's trans. If not for posters like Ket or Kyuuji, many people on this board would know basically nothing about what being trans looks or feels like on a daily basis. I've personally not understood the response some threads get from staff here, but as someone who's kept a low profile on the forum, I've stayed out of it.
But it appears from the course of this thread that staff does not appear to be listening to the voices they need to be listening to, so here I am to emphasize the point that there are members of this forum that do not condone this response to what Ket originally posted, or the follow up responses to the incident.
The trans community on this forum is such a pillar, I've read enough threads and hangouts at this point to see that, and in the span of a few weeks it feels like the staff have eroded every last supporting structure of that pillar in order to protect rules and structure while not considering how the system itself is conducive to allowing abuse to our trans members. Era's members are smart, they know exactly how close to the line they can toe it or how to post alt right opinions on the sly, while directing that straight at vulnerable minorities here. I've watched it happen repeatedly with no punishment doled out while it falls on the trans community to continue to burden the "polite" abuse.
And now staff have come down extremely heavy handed on a truly remarkable user here for daring to converse about moderation topics with their S/O? Was that really not accounted for or considered when setting up these secret Discord servers? What? It should be assumed by anyone in those sort of spaces that their conversations might be shared with spouses or partners. Yes, your privacy is important, but I'm gonna tell my partner about everything I'm doing and talking to and if I find myself in a troubling conversation with emotional fallout, who the heck do you think I'm talking to work through it? Like, my professional career involves dealing with information protected by HIPAA, but if I find myself dealing with an upsetting situation, I'm telling my partner all about it, because he's there for me to confide in. And like, I get that it's upsetting to find out that people you weren't expecting to see stuff may have heard about something, but that's hardly a good reason to swing a permanent ban down on someone who is in extremely good faith trying to help staff better themselves on how to handle trans issues on a forum that honestly has a horrible track in this area.
It's really a shame to see, I don't have many posts on the forum but I have been here and watched the site since it launched as a response to staff of somewhere else doing some heinous shit. And now it's just staff on the new place being shitty in a new way, extremely resistant to difficult but honest truths about toxic behaviors that basically all of us grew up with. I'd like to hope that staff will reverse the decisions they're making here, but I've also watched this play out on many, many different sites, and it's getting sadly predictable.
Just popping in to show my support for trans people and to stand up for their right to be treated as human beings with full autonomy. On another forum I frequent, it gets quite exhausting trying to help explain trans issues to people who either do not understand or do not want to understand, I can only imagine what you all go through every day.
Thank you for posting this.
And thank you mods for the quick action.
It can really be tiring to read posts of people being 'concerned' about fairness in sports as someone who has first hand experience on the effects of HRT.
As a generic white hetero male, I'm really bad when it comes to understanding other peoples issues and such (race, sexuality, etc.), so I just wanted to come in here and tell you that I love you all and everyone needs to be able to feel safe and not put up with assholes constantly.