Yes I do wonder how many people have been hit for saying something that rubbed a staff member the wrong way, it is hard to see why someone got banned
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It's Trans Awareness Week! (Nov 13th -19th)
- Thread starter Kyuuji
- Start date
Hmm. In that case were you thinking another thread to kind of compile the timeline and go from there?
I can only speak for myself, but I feel that attempting to contain the discussion to one pinned thread at the top that is easily missed would be the wrong way to go about it.
So long as ERA members aren't spamming a multitude of threads purely to spite the mods and flood the forum, then a handful of threads that forum goers cannot ignore by accident is the way to go. This discussion is too important.
then you and other mods should be holding the trigger happy mod accountable. explain all you want, results are better.
I can't imagine how dumb one would have to be to interpret that as a self-ban request.
Less a timeline and an all-hands (ie not just the mod team) thread to talk about changes and reforms and try to build a consensus.
It was kinda wild seeing a bunch of moderators I've never seen before defending the ban on Ketkat.
It was so fast too. A mod just wanted another voice silenced.
To be a mod is an ungrateful job, and i would never accept to be one anywhere, because of the stress and pressure, but i think that can't be used as an apology/shield to when mistakes were made and to take it emotionaly and thats why this job sux. I've readen 20+ pages to try to understand this situation and there's a bunch of stuff i still dont get like the ban of that user reason is mysterious, what leaked conversation etc, but its pretty clear to me there's a problem in the communication, threads locked people banned, the response to the trans community received was kinda aggressive and not respectfull and the reason to bans were not clear enough, the response was to silence the community you want to give a voice, the trans community should feel welcomed, and i dont think the attitude so far was the right one.
Everyone makes mistakes, i fucked up lots of times here, the thing is to learn from them, i hope thing gets resolved, just wanted to give my solidarity to the trans community.
Everyone makes mistakes, i fucked up lots of times here, the thing is to learn from them, i hope thing gets resolved, just wanted to give my solidarity to the trans community.
I mean... yes, you're right in that I've seen people get legitimate self-bans for the same kind of thing. But: why did anyone think it was a good idea to act on that post now instead of at least waiting for someone like you to be posting in the thread first? It was really so urgent that y'all were fine with that ban being the only message from staff?
I'm not saying you're the one who needs to be blamed or has the answers, to be clear. But it's just not exactly reasonable to have done it immediately, just because in some other very different contexts it may have made sense. Suddenly banning someone without comment, in a thread made because of someone being suddenly banned, is not exactly going to help anything.
EDIT: Apologies for saying what others said, posts are happening fast.
Also didn't leave any time for Yukiko to make a follow up post which would remove all doubt about if they wanted that to be their final post.
" Certain individuals have been persistently trying to hijack this thread to fight a ban. Despite the pain it has caused our volunteers, we have been more than patient with the animosity in some of those posts. The decision is now final and it's time to move on. Not everyone is going to be happy with that, and that's okay. Excessive vitriol, however, will be moderated. "
Go fuck yourselves.
fucking done
Go fuck yourselves.
fucking done
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The question then becomes, how do you control a discussion like that? Do you put a moratorium on new members posting in the thread to prevent bad faith actors from creating accounts just to vent personal vendettas in public? How do you guide a discussion like that without it immediately descending into chaos?
More dialogue is a good thing but there has to be a way to manage it that doesn't just turn it into a bunch of people with gripes against each other or specific staff members sniping at each other. That kind of discussion will turn toxic and then nuclear VERY quickly unless it's curated in a very particular way.
I actually was posting after that
like it took them 30 or so minutes to get to it
Agreed. I'm not saying every mod needs thousands of posts, but there seems to be an increasing number of mods who barely interact with the community at all. Both before and after they were a mod.
It's what you get when you have moderation with absolutely zero transparency. That's why you gotta laugh when people claim the moderation here is better than anywhere else. If it was, they wouldn't be frightened of defending their decisions. If it was, you wouldn't see so many regulars moving to discord instead of dealing with this bullshit.
EDIT: which is actually worse because they saw everything going and chose that as their only action wow
Who banned yukiko? Like in all of this mess no response has been made but THAT was something that was deemed worthy of attention and action? Clearly it was more of the same thats being brought up here of someone taking advantage of their position and trying to silence someone speaking up.
i feel like the mods here often care more for maintaining this sites image than actually living up to it. i often see posters create threads regarding issues with this site and rather than actually allow a discussion to happen to help the site improve they just get locked.
I see nothing wrong with that (although to be fair I don't think the rest of the forum is ignoring this). But why multiple threads? What would be the subjects of each?
That sounds fine with me!
I cannot answer yours or anyone else's questions, and for that I apologize. I literally wasn't involved in any way with that banning. I'm not even sure of the timeline between their posting of it and the actual action itself since I have nothing to look back to in regards to logs on Yukiko's profile (that's the result of removing actions). I agree though; sudden bans aren't going to help! It's why I told the staff not to intervene in this conversation, because you deserve someone to talk to you as best they can.
If mods don't agree with your views, you're definitely in trouble.
Yeah, I don't know if it's actually all that helpful to go right into that kind of discussion at this exact moment, tonight, if the goal is real change. Some kind of "open forum" discussion on this would require actual structure/rules to be useful in a way that can be acted on after.
And, well, it also needs actual staff input to mean anything.
This happens often, that's why a lot of people act like they are walking on eggshells. On top of that all the secrecy and heavy handed moderation has not worked this time, but this isn't the first instance of this behaviour. There is no transparency, the language is very clearly "us vs them", when the "staff" talk about the community. The foundations in the guidelines and when this forum started are not followed at all and it just feels like the "in" or "prominent" members get to have their little power trip. It's a terrible way to manage and grow a community and it's terrible to see what's unfolded over the past few days. The language used in the locked thread from the admins and mods was insensitive and was trying to tell everyone they were wrong and to move along, well that didn't work.
I've seen quite a few "please ban my account" threads over the years where the OP already used the "Contact Us" form at the bottom of the page yet got no response, and thus felt compelled to make a thread. I know the mods are busy and all, but I'm not gonna lie, seems a little sus, especially since literally no one actually followed up and asked for clarification despite the context being insanely clear
they'd rather you handle everything in PMs so no one else can see and they can shut you up with platitudes.
mod whose status as a mod is the only thing that relates them to this topic: write apology for any posts potentially marginalizing a community who is expressing their discontent, responds to quotes
mod who made the dumb post everyone's mad about: "if i become invisible that counts as transparency"
mod who made the dumb post everyone's mad about: "if i become invisible that counts as transparency"
This happened when it launched too, I was a user on gaf since 07 and I still don't know who the hell half the founders are.
I'm sorry about that. Just know, staff actions can be late like that either because there weren't any reports, a staff member wasn't reading the thread at the time, or discussion is happening about an action and there's debate back and forth about it. Dissonance like that can occur just because that's the nature of online communication.
Insofar as getting a unique topic out of them I don't think that's gonna happen right now unless we make an active effort to discuss the multitude of issues going on across the threads and pinpoint topics of discussion in each thread. I think that'd be ideal, but for now I think it's important that this be easily viewed and unable to be ignored. We're on the cusp of a discourse that can help shape ERA into a better place, and that starts with showcasing the problems so that everyone is on board and informed.
The problem is THIS thread is the Trans Awareness Week thread. It also happens to be THIS thread where all the complaints about moderation are happening, including subjects that are not about the trans community directly.
This thread may have been started as a way to protest KetKat's ban but this conversation is obviously much more than that now.
A thread that is actually, clearly marked for this discussion would be a hell of a nice start. Also, you know, when admin finally gets around to their reply and apologies and banning Royalan etc etc, it sure would be nice to have it in a thread that lays out the whole problem.
You know, for future reference in case members need to pull that post out if this happens again. 🙃
Exactly. It would need to be a very structured approach, and when tensions and emotions are running this high I don't think ANYONE has the capacity to manage that kind of discussion.
I can't help but feel like any way a "administrative feedback forum" COULD be implemented wouldn't be enough for some people. But maybe I'm just too far back from the mod staff nowadays so it's hard for me to visualize how it could work if done well.
I too would like to see actual evidence. In order to facilitate this, I would also agree that an independent member or group of members decided upon by both moderation staff and community both, would be best.
Afterwards, it might be wise to set up a type of internal affairs sort of thing.
The moderators seemed to circle the wagons and I know some of these mods wouldn't normally do so without a good reason, but we need answers that go beyond 'vagueness.'
I know the reason it's vague is that it's to protect minority members of the moderation team, which is why that independent group should at least consist of a number of minority members, as well. Under strict penalties, of course, should that information leave that.
So, I have three requests that will make me feel better:
-Either unban KetKat or provide access to an independent group that can confirm the moderator team's reasoning behind the ban. This group should be held to high esteem, with minority members, as well as strict penalties for breaking that trust.
-Actively remove from the moderation team people who have been verified within a certain time frame to hold ideas that may color their judgement on some issues to the detriment of your minority forum members -- LGBT here, but of course the same would be try of racial minority members, too.
-Provide a way to either recall or report moderator actions specifically, which would require verification from at least two other mods, or in conjunction with the aforementioned independent group.
I believe that Resetera was made to be a place where we could feel we belong and, regrettably, a good amount of bigotry still sneaks in. But that means the moderation team needs to take special care in those regards, not a business as usual, check the boxes off, sort of way. What may be banter to some can be bigotry for vulnerable members, and the general lack of attention thereof is one of my biggest issues right now.
Afterwards, it might be wise to set up a type of internal affairs sort of thing.
The moderators seemed to circle the wagons and I know some of these mods wouldn't normally do so without a good reason, but we need answers that go beyond 'vagueness.'
I know the reason it's vague is that it's to protect minority members of the moderation team, which is why that independent group should at least consist of a number of minority members, as well. Under strict penalties, of course, should that information leave that.
So, I have three requests that will make me feel better:
-Either unban KetKat or provide access to an independent group that can confirm the moderator team's reasoning behind the ban. This group should be held to high esteem, with minority members, as well as strict penalties for breaking that trust.
-Actively remove from the moderation team people who have been verified within a certain time frame to hold ideas that may color their judgement on some issues to the detriment of your minority forum members -- LGBT here, but of course the same would be try of racial minority members, too.
-Provide a way to either recall or report moderator actions specifically, which would require verification from at least two other mods, or in conjunction with the aforementioned independent group.
I believe that Resetera was made to be a place where we could feel we belong and, regrettably, a good amount of bigotry still sneaks in. But that means the moderation team needs to take special care in those regards, not a business as usual, check the boxes off, sort of way. What may be banter to some can be bigotry for vulnerable members, and the general lack of attention thereof is one of my biggest issues right now.
Again I don't blame you. I get that you're trying to bridge the situation but I think it's gotta be a little more important than a moderating job on a video game forum at this point right?
This whole situation is just disheartening and a giant mess. I really think with several previous notable thread incidents, this might be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Either way, the bans were highly uncalled for in my opinion.
Okay, so I've been provided with the thread where Royalan made that post, and I'm currently still going through it.
But one thing I found right away that the post that's currently being passed around IS NOT THE COMPLETE POST ROYALAN WROTE. More than half of it has been cut off.
As I said, I will continue to search though the thread in hopes of seeing royalan's full stance on this before I give my opinion on what royalan wrote or how he wrote it, but at the very least, you have a complete picture of the thread that is causing so much discord. I will cross post this for visibility.
But one thing I found right away that the post that's currently being passed around IS NOT THE COMPLETE POST ROYALAN WROTE. More than half of it has been cut off.
As I said, I will continue to search though the thread in hopes of seeing royalan's full stance on this before I give my opinion on what royalan wrote or how he wrote it, but at the very least, you have a complete picture of the thread that is causing so much discord. I will cross post this for visibility.
I only just found out about it because of Twitter, and I'm on era all the time.
Why aren't any other staff members posting? I get that you guys trying to come up with a statement but some geniune apologies are needed.
Alright, alright. I do appreciate that you're actually taking the hits here without much info and you're probably not involved.
Something you might have the logs for is right here:
Why did this happen?
I understand that all of the staff here are volunteers, but I'd wager if you are staff, you should be capable of essentially removing yourself and only act within guidelines and context set by the situation and site.
And of course people aren't going to be pleased 100%, but it feels like without such threads as the one in EtcEra right now, voices go unheard because it is all directed to the "Contact Us" page.
Okay, so I've been provided with the thread where Royalan made that post, and I'm currently still going through it.
But one thing I found right away that the post that's currently being passed around IS NOT THE COMPLETE POST ROYALAN WROTE. More than half of it has been cut off.
As I said, I will continue to search though the thread in hopes of seeing royalan's full stance on this before I give my opinion on what royalan wrote or how he wrote it, but at the very least, you have a complete picture of the thread that is causing so much discord. I will cross post this for visibility.
Is this... is this oppression Olympics? What... the... fuck??
I don't like the idea of this thread being where people discuss it. People often miss pinned threads, and having this thread be the epicenter prevents people from knowing that something is going on, making it less likely that they may participate.
They did an open forum discussion. It got nuked from orbit.
It's never going to happen.