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∀∃:ETURNA

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,203
Not a shooter, but Ninja Gaiden and Ninja Gaiden Black on the original Xbox feature excellent enemy AI. Prior to release, Tomonobu Itagaki contrasted the enemies in NG to ones featured in other character action games:
Tomonobu Itagaki said:
In other action games, the enemies are there for you to kill. In Ninja Gaiden, the enemies are there to kill you.

The game is demonstrative of that, if anything.

As far as first-person shooters go, I feel Halo has well developed enemy AI, but I mainly feel that way about Combat Evolved and Reach.

Binary Domain has great enemy AI unless you are solely thinking of first person shooters.
Absolutely! Binary Domain doesn't get enough love.
 
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Tovarisc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,396
FIN
AI in games today isn't better or worse than in HALOCE, HL 1 or FEAR. In all those titles AI at its core is very simple and extremely stupid, but by using fake outs and some smoke devs smartly created illusion of advanced AI that is working together. When you know it's just illusion and start to push against it then it breaks in many ways, making game easier as AI can't cope.

AI design in those and most modern shooters is good also about being decently fair, maybe even too fair in many cases. It could shoot you / kill you in microsecond you enter AI's LOS, but it doesn't. Even in games like DOOM 2016 that is all about pressure on the player AI is pretty forgiving and lets player breath a lot.
 

Tovarisc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,396
FIN
Escape From Tarkov says hi.

AI in that is terrible.

It doesn't even try to create illusion that AI scavs communicate with each other, they just swarm you with telepathy. Line of Sight checks are totally broken and AI sees through e.g. bushes like they aren't there and don't care about lightning levels so AI behaves like middle of the night is actually middle of the day. Also tuning for AI reactivity is joke, some times AI takes ages to react while in other moments AI one taps you to head through visor in .00000000000000001 ms of you entering its LOS.

TL:DR: AI in Tarkov is legit bad
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
AI in games today isn't better or worse than in HALOCE, HL 1 or FEAR. In all those titles AI at its core is very simple and extremely stupid, but by using fake outs and some smoke devs smartly created illusion of advanced AI that is working together. When you know it's just illusion and start to push against it then it breaks in many ways, making game easier as AI can't cope.

AI design in those and most modern shooters is good also about being decently fair, maybe even too fair in many cases. It could shoot you / kill you in microsecond you enter AI's LOS, but it doesn't. Even in games like DOOM 2016 that is all about pressure on the player AI is pretty forgiving and lets player breath a lot.

As some have said, it's not about just technical complexity or accuracy. The ability to create that illusion is part of developing good AI. All gaming is smoke and mirrors. Have yet to see any digital character actually kill someone in real life.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
Its about believability rather than difficulty. Giving the AI a wide range of options so it feels like it's thinking, other than just aggression.

electronics.howstuffworks.com

The Artificial Intelligence of Halo 2

Are you tired of getting whipped by the Covenant? Learn how they think from the man who created the artificial intelligence for "Halo 2." In this exclusive HowStuffWorks interview, Chris Butcher of Bungie Studios enlightens us.

"In encounters, there are rules. The Covenant will be here on top of the building. If the player kills three of them, then the Covenant goes to a set of points that are inside the building. What's really happening is the Covenant is following quite simple rules that the player perceives ... as the flow of battle. It seems like the Covenant thinks they have been weakened, so they retreat to a more defensive position. In fact, they are actually just following quite specific rules that have been laid out for them in that space."
 

NinjaBoiX

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
718
FEAR's AI was impressive and rightly lauded, but a lot of what made it so impressive (the clever path-finding for one) was predicated on a very specific level design of boxy rooms with basic geometry and tight, straight corridors. The rest of it was just fancy animations.

It was impressive, but realistically it was very carefully engineered to the tight confines of the levels they roamed. Taken out that context I'd wager it's nothing that extraordinary. It's a lot harder to do with more modern, wide open spaces full of complex geometry and such.

It wasn't some magical witchcraft that nobody has managed to replicate is all I'm saying.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,489
As some have said, it's not about just technical complexity or accuracy. The ability to create that illusion is part of developing good AI. All gaming is smoke and mirrors. Have yet to see any digital character actually kill someone in real life.

I dunno, Guardian Ape from Sekiro almost killed me.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
Its about believability rather than difficulty. Giving the AI a wide range of options so it feels like it's thinking, other than just aggression.

electronics.howstuffworks.com

The Artificial Intelligence of Halo 2

Are you tired of getting whipped by the Covenant? Learn how they think from the man who created the artificial intelligence for "Halo 2." In this exclusive HowStuffWorks interview, Chris Butcher of Bungie Studios enlightens us.

"In encounters, there are rules. The Covenant will be here on top of the building. If the player kills three of them, then the Covenant goes to a set of points that are inside the building. What's really happening is the Covenant is following quite simple rules that the player perceives ... as the flow of battle. It seems like the Covenant thinks they have been weakened, so they retreat to a more defensive position. In fact, they are actually just following quite specific rules that have been laid out for them in that space."

Yes. We often hear that gamers don't really want great AI. That it fails with testers. I think those responses have generally missed the point. Good AI isn't necessary aggressive AI...even though aggressive AI would be more realistic.

I would also like to see games scale AI. Halo CE on normal was pretty easy and I don't recall even noticing the AI there. AI can be made such that you only notice it on harder difficulties.


I dunno, Guardian Ape from Sekiro almost killed me.

Lol! Ok fair enough. Miyazaki is always thinking in another dimension though.
 
Apr 9, 2019
631
AI in games today isn't better or worse than in HALOCE, HL 1 or FEAR. In all those titles AI at its core is very simple and extremely stupid, but by using fake outs and some smoke devs smartly created illusion of advanced AI that is working together. When you know it's just illusion and start to push against it then it breaks in many ways, making game easier as AI can't cope.

AI design in those and most modern shooters is good also about being decently fair, maybe even too fair in many cases. It could shoot you / kill you in microsecond you enter AI's LOS, but it doesn't. Even in games like DOOM 2016 that is all about pressure on the player AI is pretty forgiving and lets player breath a lot.
There's a fascinating video on Doom 2016's AI. Turns out the AI is given "tokens" to shoot at the player, with a fixed number of total tokens so there's never too many dudes shooting at you at once. The higher the difficulty level, the more tokens are given out to AI (and at Ultra-Violence and esp. Nightmare you really start feeling that pressure!).

They also use a "reverse cover" system to make sure they're always out of cover! xD Interesting stuff, and certainly (to get more on-topic) quite advanced - you can play the same encounter over and over and the AI will make different decisions every time from the very first moment. It's the reason why the game's so insanely replayable and reminds me of the arena shooter bots of yore in a good way.

 

GhostBanana

Member
Mar 18, 2019
754
Hamburg
If we're going to bring this type of A.I. back, can we also bring back the limb damage reactions from Goldeneye/Perfect Dark along with it?

giphy.gif


Tl8kNC6.gif
Yes! Very much needed.
 

Hermii

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,685
One excuse I seen a lot is that this gen has such limited cpu resources AI doesn't make the priority list. Don't know if there is any merit to it.
 

kVH2LpZd

Member
Apr 3, 2019
954
The original Unreal Tournament Bots were pretty great too, especially because the difficulty could be adjusted in tangible steps.
 

Joris-truly

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
845
Netherlands
That's literally what this thread is about.
Yes, and that's what i'm saying, there isn't a clear path forward since FEAR came out. But there are other ways to go with different complex AI algorithms beyond combat.

On why FEAR's AI system peaked: It's G.O.A.P system (Goal Oriented Action Planning) was limited. For a while it was seen as the future for game AI logic. But in the end it seems more limited than finite state machines.
 

Phil me in

Member
Nov 22, 2018
1,292
Think the bigger issue is FPS games are more geared to multiplayer which is more fun and sells better. So why bother making amazing AI?
 

pswii60

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,657
The Milky Way
AI took a backseat whilst multiplayer became the focus, sadly.

Bungie's Halo games still have the most impressive enemy AI that I've witnessed. Playing on a more difficult mode didn't simply turn the enemies in to bullet sponges like in other games, they actually became more intelligent.
 

Binabik15

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,593
I feel like many games are doing quite interesting things, so I don't really agree. Jaguar cores in current gen certainly haven't helped, though, with sometgung better we might have more interactivity in general and enemies/NPCs that can handle that.

I will say that IMO the real vs fun part is super important and will always be that way. Put an (usually) untrained gamer - or even a combat vet - against a team of 5 "soldier" enemies with similiar gear as the player and the coordination and tactics even basic training should afford them in an evironment with cover and you won't ever leave cover until you're either out of ammo or worn down a few hours later and someone blows you the fuck up or shoots you in the back. Enemies need to be somewhat slow to react, a bit dumb and really suicidal to make gunfights fun for players. Unless you have a someone who'd really dig that. As with everything, whatbis "fun" is subjective, so I doubt devs could ever make the perfect enemy A.I., because it's mostly judged by how entertained players feel by it.
 

laxu

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,782
Think the bigger issue is FPS games are more geared to multiplayer which is more fun and sells better. So why bother making amazing AI?

It's a real shame because I really liked playing with bots in many older games so I did not have to deal with the toxic bullshit that are real people in multiplayer. It's fun to practice on selectable difficulty bots at times.

In single player games I would certainly love to see more enemy behaviors than "pop out of cover" and "run towards you like a crazy person" that is the common thing in most shooters nowadays. Instead of murdering hundreds and hundreds of enemies I'd rather kill fewer but smarter enemies (that are not bullet sponges either).
 

Deleted member 23475

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
662
Weird, I don't recall any praise for the Halo AI. I don't have an Xbox, so I guess that's why I missed it.
It was always a reference in the 2000s specially on console, the different species reactions (taking cover, running away, ranks, the number of AIs on screen etc.)

Halo 1 and 2 got amazing AI and I agree that is much better than Halo 4 and 5.

I think only Reach manage to improve on that.

But Halo 1 is so damn fun to this day because of the AI (but not only)

I really hope that with the next console CPU, we will see more physics and AIs which almost disappeared this gen.
 

Deleted member 37739

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 8, 2018
908
Far Cry 2 had some pretty awesome AI as well. If you sniped a guy at distance, his friends would all run to take cover, but they wouldn't immediately know where you were shooting from. And if you shot a guy in the leg, he'd crawl away and take cover and take pot shots at you from a seated position. It wasn't 'smart' AI as such, though it could be, but it was very dynamic and responsive and made an effort to be more true to life.
 
Sep 19, 2019
2,262
Hamburg- Germany
Halo as mentioned a few times before and it is not even close.

Edit: In Halo 5 I punched an Unggoy ( friendly during that scene). He wasn't happy about it obviously but walked away. I followed him and witnessed him to report me at an Arbiter... :D too good.
 
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George Romero

Member
Oct 5, 2018
809
FEAR AI is amazing, the best i"ve ever seen. Half life 1 os good too, but no nowhere close tô fear. Halo 1,2,3 and reach are reallly good though
 

xyla

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,385
Germany
We are just now coming out of a 10 year era where everyone was chasing the CoD model - AI was not a cornerstone in those, it was basically a wave based shooter for a lot of stretches.

I think we'll get to see some better implementation in games again, especially with VR on the rise. I can see AI becoming more important for immersion and also fun little set pieces where it's not about the amount of enemies but how one enemy behaves.
 

dodo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,996
I never quite know what people mean when they talk about enemy AI. A lot of the famous examples—FEAR, Half-Life, etc—aren't so much examples of complex intelligence and more examples of excellent characterization. The radio chatter, for example, isn't "intelligent"—it's just a flavorful way to give information to the player. It's the illusion of outsmarting enemies.
 

Stalker

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,726
Halo: Reach on Legendary still the pinnacle as of today for me.
I'm a huge fan of Halo and I just finished Reach on Legendary yesterday and the AI in that game is dumb as shit. Literally just stand and let you shoot them.

I remember it being praised highly but I have no idea what for, They can flank you apparently but the Balance of legendary means if you get close to them at all your going to die because bullets kill real good so maybe you never actually have the ability for the AI to be shown to it's fullest but I found the game a cake walk on legendary and the AI mundane.
 

Camp1nCarl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,135
Quite a few games have actually had interesting implementations of AI since those games released.

Halo 3 had really interestingly designed AI, I believe Bungie had a Vidoc dedicated almostly solely to AI to describe the way their systems worked. Overall, I really enjoyed the AI in H3.

The Gears of War series similarly worked like FEAR with tight "arenas" of combat, and had similar AI implementation of flanking and taking cover.

Killzone 2 and 3 had adaptable AI as well that would push and flank at appropriate times and was overall pretty aggressive if memory serves.

I was also a fan of the AI director in the Left 4 Dead series. Adapating the difficultly of the enemies based on how the team was doing at certain points across the level to scale the difficulty appropriately.
 

Thera

Banned
Feb 28, 2019
12,876
France
STALKER works really well. But remember those encounters are mostly 1vs1 while most FPS is you VS the world.
TBF, there aren't that many single player FPS these days. How is Metro's IA ?
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,745
It's also kind of hilarious and sad that people think AI has barely advanced in nearly twenty years, when games like Prey, Last of Us, Stalker, Far Cry 2, and games outside of shooters like Dwarf Fortress, Rimworld, Alien, and Crusader Kings have more complex dynamic AI than any of those three

Far Cry 2 was absolutely awful in the AI department. Broken vision, broken stealth, all enemies instantly alerted to your position. Felt like I went back to the 90s. Very few open world games manage to keep the encounters compelling and believable. I dont think it's fair to compare strategy game AI with first person shooters, they all come with distinct challenges.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,021
Actual Smart AI makes people think the game is cheating.

That said, here's a games maker toolkit video for creating the illusion of smart AI

 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,745
AI in games today isn't better or worse than in HALOCE, HL 1 or FEAR. In all those titles AI at its core is very simple and extremely stupid, but by using fake outs and some smoke devs smartly created illusion of advanced AI that is working together. When you know it's just illusion and start to push against it then it breaks in many ways, making game easier as AI can't cope.

AI design in those and most modern shooters is good also about being decently fair, maybe even too fair in many cases. It could shoot you / kill you in microsecond you enter AI's LOS, but it doesn't. Even in games like DOOM 2016 that is all about pressure on the player AI is pretty forgiving and lets player breath a lot.

I remember FEAR enemies being somewhat smart about approaching blind corners where you could be hiding. They'd go as wide as possible, and better yet, flush you out with nades. While I agree there's a combination of things that go into effective AI, FEAR did do a lot of things consistently. I remember being impressed with what Last of Us was doing, but the majority of fps shooters fall short. Most of them are geared towards online play anyways.
 

sn00zer

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,060
I'm going to go out on a limb that any game you think has good AI is because the developer came out and showed how the AI worked.
 

MadMod

Member
Dec 4, 2017
2,716
Think PVP took over the hype to AI, so people concentrated on that more. Why work on AI when you can just make a multiplayer? haha.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,991
I agree with your point, but I think that good/realistic AI is one of those things people think they want but end up hating in practice. Can't remember where now, but I know I've read about devs playtesting with what they think is awesome new AI and players hating that it was "too hard", "feels like the game is cheating", etc. People have certain expectations that are hard to break :-/
"Good AI" does not mean that the AI is a good simulation of real opponents or a perfect machine that the player will struggle to go up against.
It means that it's varied and fun to play against. That the same situation will play out differently every time.

I think with HL1 it's less that the AI is good and more that the level design is excellent and they leveraged it perfectly to anticipate what the player would do, giving the illusion that the AI was smart.
The illusion is all that matters. F.E.A.R.'s AI was an "illusion" too, but that doesn't make it any less good.
It doesn't have to be a complex simulation:
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/04/03/why-fears-ai-is-still-the-best-in-first-person-shooters/ said:
The cherry on top is communication. As the soldiers fight they provide a narrative for the chaos in the form of orders and updates barked down their radios. "He's flanking us", one will call out, as his squad reacts to my movement. "I've got nowhere to go!" another will call, aware that he's trapped but unable to identify another safe spot.

As Orkin explained, "Having A.I. speak to each other allows us to cue the player in to the fact that the coordination is intentional. Of course the reality is that it's all smoke and mirrors, and really all decisions about what to say are made after the fact, once the squad behaviour has decided what the AI are going to do." Smoke and mirrors it may be, but it really makes you feel like you're facing an intelligent force.
People say things like "the Jaguar cores are holding back AI" and "it will be better next-gen with Ryzen" but F.E.A.R. ran on an Xbox 360. Halo ran on the original Xbox. It's not a computational problem.

Also, it may not be a full-fledged action shooter, but does Alien: Isolation count?
From how it behaved in my playthrough, I would not call the xenomorph in Alien: Isolation to be an example of good AI with the way it behaved, and seemingly teleported around at times.

It's also kind of hilarious and sad that people think AI has barely advanced in nearly twenty years, when games like Prey, Last of Us, Stalker, Far Cry 2, and games outside of shooters like Dwarf Fortress, Rimworld, Alien, and Crusader Kings have more complex dynamic AI than any of those three
Complexity does not mean that it's good though. The execution is all that matters.
I loved Prey, but I certainly wouldn't say the combat encounters are as varied and fun as a game like F.E.A.R.

Yeah it's easier and more marketable to just focus on MP as well. SP is often a tutorial of sorts.
This hurts me to my core.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,622
Complexity does not mean that it's good though. The execution is all that matters.
I loved Prey, but I certainly wouldn't say the combat encounters are as varied and fun as a game like F.E.A.R.
Are we judging AI by how dynamic/complex/etc it is in combat and in response to player actions or by how fun they are to fight? Those are two very different metrics, that often run counter to eachother. Like FEAR is an excellent balance of game design smoke and mirrors, animations, and unique AI design, but those enemies aren't particularly dynamic or reactionary. Compared to like enemies you might encounter in an immersive sim
 
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Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,991
Are we judging AI by how dynamic/complex/etc it is in combat and in response to player actions or by how fun they are to fight? Those are two very different metrics
Considering that the main examples are F.E.A.R., Half-Life 2, and Halo, it should be obvious.
You can have the most complex AI system in the world, but that doesn't matter if the encounters aren't fun and play out the same way every time (this is not a comment about Prey).
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,622
Considering that the main examples are F.E.A.R., Half-Life 2, and Halo, it should be obvious.
You can have the most complex AI system in the world, but that doesn't matter if the encounters aren't fun and play out the same way every time (this is not a comment about Prey).
I guess that just reinforces the notion that people prefer fun-to-kill AI over dynamic AI.
 

P40L0

Member
Jun 12, 2018
7,599
Italy
I'm a huge fan of Halo and I just finished Reach on Legendary yesterday and the AI in that game is dumb as shit. Literally just stand and let you shoot them.

I remember it being praised highly but I have no idea what for, They can flank you apparently but the Balance of legendary means if you get close to them at all your going to die because bullets kill real good so maybe you never actually have the ability for the AI to be shown to it's fullest but I found the game a cake walk on legendary and the AI mundane.
I'm also an huge fan of Halo, and I think both Halo 3 and Reach on Legendary (or even Heroic) had the best implemented AI overall.
Especially in Reach, Elites (especially the Ultras and Zaelots) are so smart that very often behave like if you're shooting at some real life multiplayer opponent: they always try to flank you, take cover when their shield is running out, they shoot you moving sideways and always changing direction to avoid being shot, they always stay behind grunts and jackals/skirmishers using them as a their first line defense, they drive wraiths and spectres like crazy and highjack you off warthogs as soon as they can and so on.
Brutes may seem more dumb because they really are in the lore, therefore they are a bit more predictible as they tend to prefer "brute force" to smartness.