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It really annoys me that even with Mark Hamill acting the shit out of the scene, people still think "he went to kill Ben"
- Thread starter Gustaf
- Start date
Legend has never meant infallible. Luke was a legend before TLJ both in the film universe and the real world. When Rey first meets him, Luke scoffs "You think what? I'm gonna walk out with a laser sword and face down the whole First Order?" and in the end... that's exactly what he does. Throughout the the film it questions the merit of legend and by the end it realizes its value and definitively shows that Luke Skywalker is a legend that's going to inspire that galaxy.
Luke was the one who was wrong about what it means to be a legend.
You just laid out how the film confirms Luke Skywalker as a legend. :/
No.
Luke Skywalker, the individual, is not a legend. He's a regular fallible person.
Luke Skywalker, the LEGEND, is the perfect, uber-powerful Jedi.
Right here is the perfect example.
Luke Skywalker, the legend, can walk out with his laser sword and fight the whole First Order single-handedly.
Luke Skywalker, the person, could not and would be killed instantly.
The film is Luke learning to embrace his legend, despite his faults, to give the galaxy hope. However, the legend is an idealized version of Luke, not the reality.
The best part of those flash backs was just how goofy Hamill looked with his "just for Jedi" beard coloring and the way the way the saberes wobbled after contacting in the evil flashback. Shit looked terrible lmao.
All of this is correct and not at odds with what I've said. Sad Luke was wrong about what it means to be a legend. Luke eventually realizes even with all of his faults and limitations he can still be the legend the galaxy needs.
The Last Jedi confirms Luke Skywalker is a legend.
Luke was correct about what I means to be a legend.
You read the film wrong.
Just to be clear, you think sad, depressed, exile Luke was right about what it means to be a legend?
I think Luke's cynicism and ultimate affirmation of the legend can be read in two ways - yeah, he ends up doing the thing he mocks early on in the movie. But I think what he says in the moment, and what he actually does are two different things.
A legend is a symbol - Luke literally appears at the Battle of Krait as a projection of himself. Not even himself, but the younger, cleaner self who people were picturing, not the scraggly, bitter old man we saw throughout most of the movie. When he scoffs at the notion of "showing up with a laser sword and facing down the whole First Order," this is still true - if Luke showed up in person and tried to do what he did, he would have been pulverized. And yet this is what Rey, and I'm sure a lot of the upset fans who saw the movie were expecting him to do all along.
The important thing to me is that not only did he end up fulfilling the conceit (Luke, by himself, humiliates the First Order and lets everyone escape), but did so in a way no one had thought of. Luke's skepticism at the beginning of the film was right. What was wrong was thinking that was the only option. Someone brought up "Aang doesn't kill Ozai" earlier and I think that's a very apt comparison. The truly clever hero charts a different path through a seemingly impossible situation or choice. That's what makes Luke the wise master. Obviously that doesn't mean you have to like the story choice, it's just important to understand what the movie's going for.
Sorry I had like two hours of sleep and a lot of coffee, I'm just rambling.
Yes? And this has been explained pretty clearly above by BossAttack
Being depressed doesn't mean you're not capable of understanding something... that's a pretty weird take.
Well, yeah. But, I was going down this hole because I thought the original point was that Sad Luke was out of character to even attempt to murder Kylo or show a hint of failure facing the Force Vision because he should have been legendary, infallible, Luke?
No, he's right in that Sad Luke was "wrong." Sad Luke disdained his own legend and thought legends are stupid since he failed to live up to his own myth. The ending is him coming to terms with his failure to once again give the galaxy the "legend" it needed. He was wrong to think that those legends were meaningless and stupid and that his failures invalidated any attempt to live up to his own myth.
I basically agree with all of this.
Sad Luke was wrong thinking that because he wasn't perfect and couldn't do the impossible things people wanted, that he was BS. That's wrong. The film shows us that the flawed man finds a way to live up to his legend and inspire the galaxy.
Luke Skywalker IS a legend. He was before TLJ and he is after TLJ. The movie challenges us and questions that idea, but by the end it cements the fact that Luke Skywalker is a legend.
I don't think you're supposed to agree with lying, depressed Luke. You're not supposed to think that because Luke isn't perfect he has nothing to offer the galaxy. You're not supposed to think that the Jedi should end, etc. That's the whole point of him talking with Yoda. Just because Luke screwed up doesn't mean he can't be what people need.
The galaxy needs the legendary Luke Skywalker to inspire them and he finds a way to do just that. He is a legend.
Got it. No, I wasn't arguing that point.
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I know that. Like did you even read the thread? I haven't watched the movie since it came out, I'm not even stating my personal opinion on the movie which I"m tepid on, but it's probably the best of the new trilogy. Point is it doesn't matter his intent, people saw a murderous luke skywalker over a young kid and they didn't like the image. I can't tell if this is just people being dug in or if they genuinely don't get why this argument is dumb. It really doesn't change much to the people who dislike it whether it happened out of impulse or he knew what he had to do as he went in there, people flat out didn't like that image of luke, and even worse, his response to how he fucked everything up.
edit- again since this is hard to wrap people's heads around because people get so aggressively defensive about this movie for some reason... I'm not arguing whether luke was justified or not, I don't have super strong feelings on it personally, I"m arguing why it upset people who didn't like it.
It is entirely your opinion that these things are contrived or out of character, and that Luke's depiction at the very end of an entire trilogy signals that the characterization from the previous like 2 3/4 films no longer exists (even tho the film doesn't explicitly state this in any way), so if you are going to throw it at me like objective canon truth all I am going to do is ignore you.
"They should have explained it in detail" maybe you should stop expecting things that require 10 seconds of creative thought in your own head to be spoon fed to you
You just disagreed with the point you made that I was agreeing with...
Individual Luke is not a legend.
His actions will become a legend, that will inspire others.
People mix this up too much and expect the Legend of luke to align with the person, which is why they cannot accept Luke having human failings.
The last time we saw him in ROTJ he was a moment away from murdering his own father that he insisted on not fighting at all. When he comes out of the vision he immediately comes to terms with what he was thinking. That is character development. Luke does not kill his father=/=Luke has unlocked the never make an irrational decision skill on the life skill tree.
"You should write a story that caters to fan expectations first and foremost" is how we got TROS. The film where the most shocking twists are just how toothless of a film it is.
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I was disagreeing with Sad Luke being right. He's wrong. Legends matter and he needed to learn to embrace that Legend to inspire others, his failings did not mean he could not still inspire others or was unworthy to be a Jedi.
Sad Luke is right, in the context I said... ofc he was wrong about Legends having value, he was not wrong about his assessment of himself.
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The murderous looking Luke was only from Kylo's memory of the situation. It wasn't true.
Luke's final in-canon characterization at the end of his story arc at the end of Return of the Jedi SUPERSEDES his characterization 30mins earlier into that movie, his characterization from Empire Strikes Back, from the X-mas Special, from A New Hope etc. That is how character arcs work in stories and that's not just my opinion. Walking back on a person's character arc requires setup to avoid inconsistencies. Something that The Last Jedi writer did not provide for Luke when they regressed him back to his ESB characterization.
Expecting a narrative setup or any form of explanation for a plot or character inconsistency within the movie or book is a pretty normal thing to do. Why should I or anyone exempt The Last Jedi from that?
OP
OP
narrative set up for what "character inconsistency" are you talking about??
First off, you should avoid cherry picking quotes, cutting sentences etc. from my posts, otherwise people might think you're arguing in bad faith.
Second, The Last Jedi Luke's initial reaction of striking down his sleeping nephew because of force visions is a REGRESSION for a character who had a life-altering experience regarding the unreliable nature of force visions in Empire Strikes Back and who had again another life-altering, first-hand experience of redeeming a family member from the Dark side not through violence but by peacefully reaching-out to that person in Return of the Jedi.
TLJ Luke is free to make irrational decisions like throwing away his light saber for harmless comedy. But for a character with as much character development and historical baggage as Luke Skywalker, there are some irrational decisions like forgetting key life experiences from his OT story arc like the ones i mentioned above, that would require some story setup to pull off and not just voice over dialogue. Otherwise, many Star Wars fans would feel that their investment on the foundation of the franchise ie. Luke's story arc in OT, is being trivialized and would not be receptive to anymore Star Wars materials in the future.
Who said anything about catering to fan expectations "first and foremost"? I know i didn't. What i wrote- and you conveniently left-out when you quoted that paragraph - is that most Star Wars fans just want Luke' characterization in TLJ to be consistent from the last time we saw him in RotJ. Are you sure you're not arguing in bad faith?
The original paragraph that you misquoted:
Sorry man just could not be bothered reposting. Just followup on my posts starting on page 5.
Luke didn't have a life altering experience when it came to force visions. He made a bad decision based on a vision and then visions as a topic were never brought up again. Like in the first segment of ROTJ makes so many bad decisions that it's a wonder why anyone would be that he grew outside of having different cadences:
But that may be down to ROTJ having weaker writing. Regarding redeeming a family member. He is still the same person who despite wanting to do that, decided that the best course of action was to let Palpatine, Vader, and himself all die in a fiery explosion. Let himself get pushed enough to fight Vader, multiple mind you, and he only stopped once the emperor encouraged him to land the final blow. If you believe that this is a person who would perfectly make completely rational decisions from that point forward then I have a bridge to sell you. Luke's inexperience is on full display in ROTJ in spite of his insistence that he is now a full fledged jedi knight who's ready to die:
vs.
Honestly the idea that Luke would be a perfect and wise jedi master after the events of ROTJ feels so dishonest to the character we were given. We didn't see a character emotionally mature enough to deal with failure. We didn't see him be a full fledged jedi knight. We saw an adult in his early twenties with the weight of an galaxy on his shoulders and being put in a situation where he was in over his head and nearly turned to the dark side as a result, before resolving himself to death, only to be completely blindsided by what he was facing. Again. What makes Luke so good is that he's very antithetical when it comes to action adventure heroes.
"Luke would never make a mistake like that" is thinking that betrays his character arc.
If Luke was the same as he was in ROTJ he would've murdered Ben. Him immediately coming to is character progression. Character progression does not=being incapable of making the same and/or similar mistakes. Humans aren't wired that way.
Well it's a good thing that It is consistent with where we left him. 🤷♂️
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Wait what, Luke in ROTJ still makes a last minute decision to spare Vader. Still went in trying to kill him.
And yeah flipping the saber wasn't irrational because he could just force pull it back without issue. It's ok for Star Wars to have jokes. There's lots of them in all 3 trilogies.
There's nothing that says he isn't capable of mistakes in canon. Like a big theme in all of star wars is that people aren't perfect with lots of redemption arcs spanning within the same trilogy and across multiple trilogies.
Like I just don't see a problem with Luke making mistakes in the ST, realizing it, and then trying to correct it. Luke's Hermitage is reminiscent of both Yoda's and Obi-Wans. Honestly the biggest issue I have with the ST in general is how many themes it wants to recycle but I think it's hard to argue with TLJ being the most daring/fresh of the 3 films in the ST in terms of trying to explore new ideas .
Like you can have some kind of perfect vision of Luke if you want but I don't see it as some huge affront if a filmaker dares to trifle with that vision. I mean honestly from the OT Luke is largely a stubborn/difficult person, it's not hard to see that he could regress to that. Like it's just as easy (honestly easier to make the argument) that his actions in the ST are very in character from who he was in the OT outside of literally the last second decision to not kill his father.
He was hell-bent on destroying Vader for years even knowing who he was and pulled off at the last second.
It's not hard to see him thinking about it with Kylo for a split second and then again pulling off.
As others have said that actually is progression. It's also explored in Luke's relationship with the dark side in his interactions with Rey. A full circle understanding of her going right for the darkside, that there is a balance to things, that it was wrong for him to judge Kylo as he did, and also wrong to judge Rey. Like the huge theme was that there were huge issues with his (and the Jedis) general way of thinking. There's nothing that came up in canon that suggests Luke transcended into some perfect being. The closest he got is arguably in TLJ when he literally sacrificed himself for a bigger cause and even then the way he did it wasn't perfect. And that's ok too.
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There was balance and Ben was going to upend that. Luke believed it was his responsibility as the "legend" and only remaining Jedi Master to ensure that the galaxy was not plunged into darkness again. But his fear and hubris got the best of him. And he ended up "creating" the very thing he hoped to avoid.
I think it's a good bit of writing because there are few things I can think of that would lead Luke Skywalker to become a hermit... but getting caught contemplating the murder of your nephew is certainly one of them. And the resultant guilt and shame is completely in character for someone like Luke, in my opinion.
I think it's a good bit of writing because there are few things I can think of that would lead Luke Skywalker to become a hermit... but getting caught contemplating the murder of your nephew is certainly one of them. And the resultant guilt and shame is completely in character for someone like Luke, in my opinion.
Lol no he didn't. Go watch the movie again and actually pay attention. Like turn off your phone and put it in a different room.
It was not premeditated. More a crime of passion if anything
A thought crime of passion and a button press that he immediately regretted.
That's why he's there, that's why he ignites his lightsaber. It wasn't all a big misunderstanding. He could feel Ben slipping to the dark side, he was worried his order would fall apart, and that he would inadvertently train the next Darth Vader (which, ironically, he did). He admits to planning on killing Ben, but then said the feeling quickly passed and he was only left with shame and regret.
You don't just kill your nephew on the fly, he contemplated it. He knew Ben was going down a dark path and wanted to stop it.
Right, so he was super bummed, and then Rey going right for the dark again made him very cautious. He eventually realized she was the balance, not him, but still aided how he felt he should. He was no longer needed in a physical sense and his time was done and others were capable of picking up the baton.
Lol again this is all in the movie.
He was there to try and figure out what was going on. He did not walk there with the intent of killing Ben.
" for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it."
In the age of cinemasins media literacy is at an all time low when it comes to online discussions. Especially as people try more and more to logic everything to death instead of engaging with stories.
📢📢📢
2018:
The Last Jedi
The Last Jedi
The Last Jedi
The Last Jedi
The Last Jedi
2019:
The Last Jedi
The Last Jedi
The Last Jedi
The Last Jedi
The Rise of Skywalker
2020:
The Rise of Skywalker
The Rise of Skywalker
The Last Jedi
The Last Jedi
The Last Jedi
📢📢📢
2018:
The Last Jedi
The Last Jedi
The Last Jedi
The Last Jedi
The Last Jedi
2019:
The Last Jedi
The Last Jedi
The Last Jedi
The Last Jedi
The Rise of Skywalker
2020:
The Rise of Skywalker
The Rise of Skywalker
The Last Jedi
The Last Jedi
The Last Jedi
📢📢📢
We were robbed of the tons of discussions that would have been made after DOTF. 😢
This is not an end-all be-all rule in storytelling. Please source me academic, professional, or otherwise respected literature on storytelling or filmmaking which requires the extent of what you are describing.
It goes along with the trope I see in slasher film discussion "if they don't show the body don't assume the slasher is dead". Where in the canon does it explicitly state what you are claiming, that Luke's character has suddenly, permanently changed? If you can find it I can admit I am wrong. If you can't, then Luke's future post-RotJ is up for interpretation, and interpreting his triumph at the end of that film as not dissolving his character flaws is just as valid as your interpretation.
I honestly don't remember much characterization of Luke after he tosses the saber. He gets force-lightning'd by Palps, Vader tosses the Emperor down the shaft, Luke drags his father's body to the shuttle, they have a few words where I believe Luke only expresses that he doesn't want Vader to die, then the funeral and the Yub Nub before final credits. If it's so important to explain everything else that shows up in these movies where is the explanation for what you're talking about?
well remind me not to visit another, haha.
Thanx.
Exactly, him deciding to not kill Vader after years of trying to do so even knowing he was his father and literally seconds before that nearly killing him is not an indication of him being some transcendant being. Him contemplating for literally less than a second the prospect of potentially preventing an insane amount of death by killing his nephew is not out of character at all. If anything it's completely in character and him so immediately realizing he was wrong to even have a fleeting thought is the definition of progression from the OT.
Him being so distraught over that fleeting thought and his failure leading to his being a hermit is also progession, even if it is perhaps somewhat misguided. His stubbornness with Rey is also completely in character given his entire history, but he once again comes around and literally sacrificed himself for something bigger, again, in character.
The arguments against Luke's characterization in TLJ all basically boil down to "he does not conform to my thoughts about him from the OT as a transcendant perfect hero" which isn't an accurate interpretation from the OT, at least IMHO.
For the vast majority of the OT he was a stubborn dumbass with heroic tendencies who eventually progressed to the point of not killing his defenseless father in cold blood after years of trying to do so.
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You should really slow down with all of the snide, "its all spelled out" "put your phone away" nonsense. Your posts in this thread show you didn't understand the scenes.
We also should consider, since Star Wars brings up a lot of comparisons to myth, that often in mythology characterizations change depending on the era, location, etc. and sometimes take on different roles in younger characters' stories. Myths are living things which evolve and adapt to the culture observing them. Luke's role in TLJ falls in line with that I would argue. It is taking the interpretation that Luke did not wholly transform at the end of RotJ and following it to a logical endpoint in order to channel the themes that this story for a younger generation will grow up with. It re-contextualizes his character within a more modern perspective - "modern" also including the fact that Star Wars has spent so long in the public consciousness to elicit meta-commentary and the like. This is not uncommon.
You also hit the nail on the head when you said Luke's story is still progression. People don't always progress in a constant upward trajectory. Even in stories. Even in myth.
If the cops see you pull out your gun, cock it and aim at your kid's head, you're gonna have a hell of a time convincing them that you weren't ACTUALLY gonna murder your kid.
Whose nephew has already been turned to the dark side and has immense force powers and a strong likelihood of killing billions of people, am I right?
Luke's didn't experience suicidal depression while placing the blame solely on himself for shits and giggles.
Completely apples and oranges for a ton of reasons, and yeah ^ it was still awful and hence Luke's reaction.