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Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
Previous games from Valve were sold at many online retailers, like amazon or walmart.com. In fact, at one point, uplay from ubisoft even sold keys for valve games. Selling keys on multiple stores benefits consumers, because it allows those stores to reduce their take on each key sold to consumers to pass on savings to the customer in an attempt to drum up business.

with Half Life Alyx, they appear to have stopped doing this. The only legitimate store that sells alyx steam keys, is steam itself.

now, this doesn't mean that steam is the only store selling alyx. There are also illegitimate stores selling stolen or otherwise ill-gotten keys for Alyx at discounted prices. And this is why Valve not selling alyx keys on other stores is really wrong -- it gives the illusion that these stores are legitimate. They are inadvertently directing unknowing customers towards shady sites. This hurts everyone in the long run. Other developers, for example, also have their keys illegally sold on those sites, and by bringing customers to them, they bring eyes upon those keys.

All games should be sold everywhere provided no technological hurdle, IMO. I'd very much like for Alyx to go to PSVR2 or an eventual Xbox Series X VR headset. When players have the choice to play their games anywhere, they can simply choose the best ecosystem and hardware for their needs. Valve has been usually good at this practice, but with Alyx, their biggest game in years, they have stumbled. Sadly, there isn't really any outcry urging them to open up to other stores, when, IMO, there should be.
 

AshenOne

Member
Feb 21, 2018
6,112
Pakistan
Yeah its disappointing to see from Valve. Its so dumb and encourages people to buy keys from these shady sites to get games like G2A. They should know much better than this
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
24,537
Yeah its disappointing to see from Valve. Its so dumb and encourages people to buy keys from these shady sites to get games like G2A. They should know much better than this

it's more disappointing because they themselves have made all the arguments I've made above, multiple times, in lectures or interviews. They should know this stuff pretty well. Also, Alyx isn't supposed to be a profit-driven game, their goal is to expand the VR market by bringing new users in. This could be accomplished better by, for example, coming to other VR stores, not just steam. Selling Alyx on the Oculus Store and even the Microsoft VR store would be great, as that's the very decision they (rightfully) encourage other VR devs to do. Lead by example.
 

defaltoption

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
11,491
Austin
I agree with you 100% but it probably just comes down to the margins of profit for the game. Which in the end is what matters to them, we know the game brought in about 1 million new vr users, I don't know if we know the total game sales but let's say it's 3 million max. That 3 million copies has to not only recoup the game costs which is probably a lot but also recoup Index costs and fund next gen vr costs. It probably is as simple as not wanting to share a cut. They're already sharing the headset pie with others.
 

AshenOne

Member
Feb 21, 2018
6,112
Pakistan
it's more disappointing because they themselves have made all the arguments I've made above, multiple times, in lectures or interviews. They should know this stuff pretty well. Also, Alyx isn't supposed to be a profit-driven game, their goal is to expand the VR market by bringing new users in. This could be accomplished better by, for example, coming to other VR stores, not just steam. Selling Alyx on the Oculus Store and even the Microsoft VR store would be great, as that's the very decision they (rightfully) encourage other VR devs to do. Lead by example.
I agree. They already have lots of cash in their bank why not help drive VR forward into the mainstream by distributing keys to all sorts of third party retailers.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
I agree with you 100% but it probably just comes down to the margins of profit for the game. Which in the end is what matters to them

They've said in the past that profits from singular games aren't what matters. Their philosophy is that bringing people into their ecosystem is worth more than a single game's sales. They gave a lecture on this at Steam Dev Days, where they explained the monetary results of an experiment they did where they gave Portal 2 away for free, yet still generated more money.

They've openly admitted that they don't expect to turn a profit from HL:A. Their goal is to bring more eyes to VR, which benefits them ultimately as Steam is a platform for selling VR games.

Plus, as the developers for HL:A they still see a percentage of sales from other stores.
 

BestTestie

Banned
Jan 13, 2020
628
All games should be sold everywhere provided no technological hurdle, IMO. I'd very much like for Alyx to go to PSVR2 or an eventual Xbox Series X VR headset. When players have the choice to play their games anywhere, they can simply choose the best ecosystem and hardware for their needs. Valve has been usually good at this practice, but with Alyx, their biggest game in years, they have stumbled. Sadly, there isn't really any outcry urging them to open up to other stores, when, IMO, there should be.
It's a Valve-game and they want to sell their hardware. It should stay exclusive unless Valve suddenly decids they don't want give reason to buy their hardware.
 
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OP

Deleted member 12790

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Oct 27, 2017
24,537
It's a Valve-game and they want to sell their hardware. It should stay exclusive unless Valve suddenly decided they don't want give people reason to buy their hardware.

Half Life Alyx works with every PCVR headset. It is not exclusive to their hardware. You can play Alyx without ever touching a single bit of Valve's hardware, and in fact, an enormous percentage of the players of Half Life Alyx did just that.

The entire reason Valve created SteamVR, is to make PCVR games hardware agnostic. This is the stated design goal of SteamVR.
 

DaciaJC

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,685
That is indeed disappointing coming from the foremost champions of storefront agnosticism.
 

karnage10

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,508
Portugal
All games should be sold everywhere provided no technological hurdle, IMO. I'd very much like for Alyx to go to PSVR2 or an eventual Xbox Series X VR headset. When players have the choice to play their games anywhere, they can simply choose the best ecosystem and hardware for their needs. Valve has been usually good at this practice, but with Alyx, their biggest game in years, they have stumbled. Sadly, there isn't really any outcry urging them to open up to other stores, when, IMO, there should be.
This right here but I totally expect game journalist and most of ERA to completely ignore the issue specially when new consoles on the horizon.
 
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OP

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
This right here but I totally expect game journalist and most of ERA to completely ignore the issue specially when new consoles on the horizon.

I've even seen people who normally shit on EGS for their practices excuse this regarding Half Life Alyx. It's not a simple case of "Steam good, everyone else bad." Either you believe in the philosophy or you don't. Anything else is mere platform warring. The arguments about how beneficial selling keys on multiple store fronts is for consumers applies universally, not when it is convenient.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,950
Do VR games, other than physical copies of PSVR games, normally get sold on multiple storefronts? I feel like I've seen very few, if any, of them being sold in other places.
 

Lant_War

Classic Anus Game
The Fallen
Jul 14, 2018
23,590
What would be the reason for Valve to do this? Do they get a bigger cut on Steam?
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
Do VR games, other than physical copies of PSVR games, normally get sold on multiple storefronts? I feel like I've seen very few, if any, of them being sold in other places.

there are many games that are sold on both Steam and the Oculus store.

Beyond that, there is nothing stopping 3rd party developers on steam from generating keys and selling them on other stores just like any other steam game. Problem is not a lot of stores are interested in buying keys for VR games. I'm willing to bet Half Life Alyx would drastically change that, though, which would probably also lead to an additional avenue for smaller devs to break into those stores as well. That comes back to valve ultimately, because when developers see more sales opportunities for VR games, they're more inclined to make VR games, which is one of Valve's goals with Steam: to facilitate the sales of VR titles.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
What would be the reason for Valve to do this? Do they get a bigger cut on Steam?

On steam, they keep 100% of the sale, since it's their own store. But, they have also said they're not particularly interested in Alyx as something to turn profit, so who knows why they haven't tried selling keys outside of steam. They really should.
 

Necromanti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,550
If there was one thing out of Epic's playbook that I didn't want to see Valve pull, it was this. That's really disappointing.
 

karnage10

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,508
Portugal
I've even seen people who normally shit on EGS for their practices excuse this regarding Half Life Alyx. It's not a simple case of "Steam good, everyone else bad." Either you believe in the philosophy or you don't. Anything else is mere platform warring. The arguments about how beneficial selling keys on multiple store fronts is for consumers applies universally, not when it is convenient.
I agree. Make no mistake for me steam is undoubtedly the best platform currently around. But they did drop the ball here. And just like you say this should be something that everyone complaints about.
The 30% cut had more news despite being the industry standard while this Alyx being bound to just steam is not mentioned at all.
there are many games that are sold on both Steam and the Oculus store.

Beyond that, there is nothing stopping 3rd party developers on steam from generating keys and selling them on other stores just like any other steam game. Problem is not a lot of stores are interested in buying keys for VR games. I'm willing to bet Half Life Alyx would drastically change that, though, which would probably also lead to an additional avenue for smaller devs to break into those stores as well. That comes back to valve ultimately, because when developers see more sales opportunities for VR games, they're more inclined to make VR games, which is one of Valve's goals with Steam: to facilitate the sales of VR titles.
you are right. Alyx is such a good opportunity for this.
 

Woodbeam

Member
May 6, 2019
687
It seems that the general consensus around here is that if you've produced a game yourself, it's ok to keep it exclusive to your own storefront. It's buying exclusivity of games produced externally that's seen as problematic. I'm pretty ok with that being the standard personally, for example I despise Epic's exclusivity agreements, they appear transparently predatory to me, but I can understand them not putting Fortnite on Steam. I'll readily admit this is more an emotional, intuitive thing rather than being based purely in fact, but it does seem like there are pragmatic arguments to be made for things like consistency of experience and the idea that maintaining revenue share leads to better experiences for all, even if these arguments aren't exactly air tight. The argument that bringing a title as big as HLA to other storefronts would give a boost to VR storefronts and the market in general is powerful.

I am a bit surprised that you'd advocate for Valve to publish games on the Oculus store, given Facebook's initially openly and now more de facto adversarial relationship with Valve and Steam. It'd be like putting their games on EGS. Doing this wouldn't hurt Valve or Steam, their position is too secure and the competition from those entities too weak for that to happen, but should it be done? I wonder what kind of data Valve itself has on those options!
 
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Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
It seems that the general consensus around here is that if you've produced a game yourself, it's ok to keep it exclusive to your own storefront.

I don't see why at all. I am a consumer, I am not valve or epic or whoever. I don't care if they developed it themselves, the benefit to me as a consumer doesn't stop because it was developed first party.

Further, if someone like Sony or Nintendo or Microsoft sold exclusively through Walmart or whatever, that would still be bad for consumers.

It'd be like putting their games on EGS.

VALVE SHOULD PUT THEIR GAMES ON EGS. A primary criticism I have with the EGS is that curation harms developers, open ecosystems are beneficial. Valve should put their games everywhere, and EGS should make getting on their store easier.
 

Woodbeam

Member
May 6, 2019
687
I don't see why at all. I am a consumer, I am not valve or epic or whoever. I don't care if they developed it themselves, the benefit to me as a consumer doesn't stop because it was developed first party.

Further, if someone like Sony or Nintendo or Microsoft sold exclusively through Walmart or whatever, that would still be bad for consumers.

That's all totally true! There are some arguments in favor of exclusivity, but like I said, I don't think they're all that strong in the end. It would take pretty revolutionary change for everything to be available everywhere, but pushing for that change is really cool.

VALVE SHOULD PUT THEIR GAMES ON EGS. A primary criticism I have with the EGS is that curation harms developers, open ecosystems are beneficial. Valve should put their games everywhere, and EGS should make getting on their store easier.
I wish I could be as staunch as you, I still have a reflexive dislike of the idea! I guess the pragmatic reason for that is that starving bad actors completely is the best strategy to prevent harm in theory, but the reality could easily be more nuanced. No way to really know without some pretty serious data, so it's not like I have a real counterargument. Again, I admire how consistent you're able to be with real arguments to back your ideas up. Wish more actors in the industry thought the way you do.