If France and UK were forced to return their art the British Museum and Louvre would close the next day, there's no way this is happening but I'd love to have back Victory of Samothrace, Aphrodite of Milos and the Parthenon Marbles.
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It is time for European countries that participated in colonialism to repay the places they fucked over
- Thread starter Heromanz
- Start date
I swear a bunch of people got unbanned on the first page? Anyhoo.. neat idea on paper but near impossible to implement I'm afraid, for so many reasons, some probably valid and some not so much.
Let's start with something a bit more realistic and return confiscated cultural relics to their home countries. Europe will be just fine with what will be left of their own stuff.
Let's start with something a bit more realistic and return confiscated cultural relics to their home countries. Europe will be just fine with what will be left of their own stuff.
Well, the point of a museum is to show and do research on archeological finds from cultures of the past. So having relics displayed in another country than the one where they come from is not really a problem in my eyes. The issue is when those relics are "owned" by the museum or the country hosting said museum (or a random private collector that most likely got them illegaly).
What is needed is that those relics should be given ownership back to the original country. Wich would then lease/rent them to museums to expose or run research on. I think it's something that happens a bit more theses days but it's clearly not nearly enough.
I think that the best way to at least mitigate the damage is with knowledge transfer. Mainly building technical schools and universities and funding education. This way the poorer countries will have a fighting chance in the future.
No it's not.
Just do what France is doing to fuck over Haiti right now and have a colonialism tax where money is paid directly back to the nation's government.
Yeah the things "we" the Netherlands did in Indonesia is some fucked up shit, realistically it's never going to happen though. Who is going to enforce that? All the big world powers that could impose sanctions to force the issue have similar amounts of blood on their hands.
I believe some reparations have been paid for the atrocities committed during the final years of the occupation (1945 - 1949) but that's it.
I believe some reparations have been paid for the atrocities committed during the final years of the occupation (1945 - 1949) but that's it.
Some of the responses in this thread are outright embarrassing. Get a grip.
OP you are 100% correct. Many western European countries gained their wealth due to colonialism. Many countries in Africa and else where are still feeling the effects of colonialism today.
I live in the U.K. and our attitude towards our past is fucking shameful.
OP you are 100% correct. Many western European countries gained their wealth due to colonialism. Many countries in Africa and else where are still feeling the effects of colonialism today.
I live in the U.K. and our attitude towards our past is fucking shameful.
User Banned (Permanent): Concern Trolling Around Concerns of Colonialism and Inflammatory Accusations; Account in Junior Phase
How do you select the countries, that should have compensation of the action of colonialism? On what timeline do we count these countries? What if the nation doesn't exist anymore? What if the demographic of the people have changed in that area? How do you calculate how much any country has to pay to every country they have had a connection with? How would the payment happen? Is this only money or land too? (I do agree completely with the artist and archeological pieces, as long as the nation can provide the security and care to these pieces)
Have you considered what these actions would do? Is the target country oppressing minorities, therefore is it ok to support such a regime? Where do you draw the line, if not? Would these regimes let the money go for the people or just hoard those themselves? Have you considered the skyrocketing nationalism and far-right ideas that would happen from this? Or if the nations are even able to support themselves right now? Did you consider the upcoming Great Depression?
Agreeing with the title question is like putting Like in Facebook, if you do not have actual vision and plan with this. Otherwise I question peoples agendas over this. It sounds more like a vengeance and not justice.
Colonialism was horrible and shit sucked. But if we actually went to do this whole repayment project, the pushback could be so bad that we might as well see the rise of fascism to the whole new highs, then the whole project would be cancelled and everything would be even worse.
Have you considered what these actions would do? Is the target country oppressing minorities, therefore is it ok to support such a regime? Where do you draw the line, if not? Would these regimes let the money go for the people or just hoard those themselves? Have you considered the skyrocketing nationalism and far-right ideas that would happen from this? Or if the nations are even able to support themselves right now? Did you consider the upcoming Great Depression?
Agreeing with the title question is like putting Like in Facebook, if you do not have actual vision and plan with this. Otherwise I question peoples agendas over this. It sounds more like a vengeance and not justice.
Colonialism was horrible and shit sucked. But if we actually went to do this whole repayment project, the pushback could be so bad that we might as well see the rise of fascism to the whole new highs, then the whole project would be cancelled and everything would be even worse.
Yeah i guess.
But most still do research, so they'd still need to have originals on site. But yeah...
Isn't this more a problem with capitalism in genral, since a lot of farmers here in Germany have been protesting, because they are barley making any money.It is more about this
U.S., European Subsidies Undercut African Farmers
African governments have long complained that U.S. and European agricultural subsidies are undercutting African farmers. Western farm-support programs and cheap cotton dumped on the world market are impeding efforts to end Africa's cycle of poverty.www.npr.org
But growers complain that they're barely making a living from their crops, and in recent years, several large cotton companies have gone out of business.
Getting ride of big farming companies seems like a better solution, then cutting the subsedies, smaller farmers in Europe get.
Or they people who can afford it, start buying more fairtrade products, although I am not sure, how effective that is and how much money actually
goes to the ones who need it.
EU Foreign Aid spending yearly is ~80b.
You're suggesting single-country spending directed explicitly at formerly oppressed territories? (eg. UK to India, France to Libya, and so on?)
I think some countries have done that, but the scope of the programs are often porous and insufficient.
There's also a moral argument that development aid should target the places that need it the most and can use it the most - eg. UK aid shouldn't prioritize South Africa
I think a discussion around colonial reparations is legitimate, but the devil is in the details - and most of it should start with cutting off the last white colonialism in the middle east, Israel aid.
Honestly, i think the big disconnect between the racism issues as seen by USA people and by European people is that European prejudice and oppression has absolutely no qualms about extending to people with the same skin color
What's colloquially known as 'racism' in the US - systematic oppression driven by prejudice - tends to apply in Europe on cultural grounds more often than skincolor grounds, mostly due to a relatively low minority population.
Europeans tend to see less racism everywhere because there's less black people around, not because Europe is less racist - It's just less violent about it.
Intra-european racism and culturalism is rampant and has been for literally all of recorded history, and there's also an issue with most minority groups in the EU being fragmented and often hostile between each other - painted quite a bleak picture of the situation.
You're suggesting single-country spending directed explicitly at formerly oppressed territories? (eg. UK to India, France to Libya, and so on?)
I think some countries have done that, but the scope of the programs are often porous and insufficient.
There's also a moral argument that development aid should target the places that need it the most and can use it the most - eg. UK aid shouldn't prioritize South Africa
I think a discussion around colonial reparations is legitimate, but the devil is in the details - and most of it should start with cutting off the last white colonialism in the middle east, Israel aid.
Honestly, i think the big disconnect between the racism issues as seen by USA people and by European people is that European prejudice and oppression has absolutely no qualms about extending to people with the same skin color
What's colloquially known as 'racism' in the US - systematic oppression driven by prejudice - tends to apply in Europe on cultural grounds more often than skincolor grounds, mostly due to a relatively low minority population.
Europeans tend to see less racism everywhere because there's less black people around, not because Europe is less racist - It's just less violent about it.
Intra-european racism and culturalism is rampant and has been for literally all of recorded history, and there's also an issue with most minority groups in the EU being fragmented and often hostile between each other - painted quite a bleak picture of the situation.
Law enforcement is also shitty down there, even if not as deadly.Violence motivated by racism said:
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If we ever wanted visual proof of why OT thinks Gaming side is a cesspit full of closeted bigots who just want the pre-meltdown GAF gaming experience, this thread is it.
@OP I agree completely, but I don't think it's going to happen unless a particularly vindictive former victim comes to a state of global power while America either fucks off or declines and the EU falls behind. It's the same reason why the states of Western Europe weren't made pariahs towards the end of colonialism; money. America went from hypocritically anti-colonial but still twisting arms about it after WW2 to outright not giving a fuck in the span of twenty years and never gave a damn about righting wrongs, just ending it. And lo and behold, colonialism ended when America's your life jacket post-WW2 and holds the purse strings.
In an ideal world, Western Europe would have been placed under embargo or boycotted by its former colonies as soon as they were independent to force the issue of their crimes, but it was economically impossible to do so. But maybe in the future, something can come of it. But far more likely is that Western Europe gets away with it. Literally got a golden parachute ending to colonialism thanks to the US...
@OP I agree completely, but I don't think it's going to happen unless a particularly vindictive former victim comes to a state of global power while America either fucks off or declines and the EU falls behind. It's the same reason why the states of Western Europe weren't made pariahs towards the end of colonialism; money. America went from hypocritically anti-colonial but still twisting arms about it after WW2 to outright not giving a fuck in the span of twenty years and never gave a damn about righting wrongs, just ending it. And lo and behold, colonialism ended when America's your life jacket post-WW2 and holds the purse strings.
In an ideal world, Western Europe would have been placed under embargo or boycotted by its former colonies as soon as they were independent to force the issue of their crimes, but it was economically impossible to do so. But maybe in the future, something can come of it. But far more likely is that Western Europe gets away with it. Literally got a golden parachute ending to colonialism thanks to the US...
I love how in this thread people were doing callbacks to peoples and civilisations that haven't existed for hundreds if not thousands of years. All so they could hand wave away the debt owed by states and nations who profited from colonialism who are still around.
Some of these countries have trophy rooms (they call them museums) where they display the stuff they stole. They have statues and monuments venerating people who took part in colonialism. Colonialism was still a thing post WWII. France fought a bloody war in Algeria to try to keep possession of that territory, and that was a few decades ago. Most people's grandparents were alive when European powers still had colonial possessions around the world. People acting like this shit was hundreds of years ago.
Some of these countries have trophy rooms (they call them museums) where they display the stuff they stole. They have statues and monuments venerating people who took part in colonialism. Colonialism was still a thing post WWII. France fought a bloody war in Algeria to try to keep possession of that territory, and that was a few decades ago. Most people's grandparents were alive when European powers still had colonial possessions around the world. People acting like this shit was hundreds of years ago.
This I can say as a German, if our demographic would look more like the USA our problems with racism would a lot more common.
Serious question, is there an approximate number on how many Native Americans were killed by European colonizers in the early times of Western Expansion? I would think they suffered a great deal before countries like USA Canada, and Mexico were formed.
The UK attitude to its present is as shameful.
The UK has just left the EU because it wanted it's membership fees back and the country as a whole benefitted hugely right now from those payments. I can't even begin to imagine what would have to happen for the attitude in the country to shift to even begin to have a discussion on more aid to ... Basically every country for past transgressions.
You can see how it goes downhill for India since 1600 and the reason why the current India and China are getting more assertive is because they want to go back to the position they had before foreign powers intervention.
I like how a lot of Europeans online are always touting how mature and civil they are, how things are so "civil" and that the world needs to learn how to become mature like them. But bring up shit like this or the Roma and they become softer than baby shit in a blender. They colonized and meddled so much in other civilizations who were minding their own business. They whine about refugee crisis when their governments prospered from the chaos they took part in inflicting in these countries. It's kind of funny how most just live in denial until the cows come home ignoring the traditions in debauchery that made their disgusting bellies full. Whether it was enslavement, or cutting hands off of the Congolese as punishment, or burning down a Beninese palace because they got upset the king of that territory would not let them in their trade routes. The ones to call for this civility need to learn it from the ones they have oppressed. And yes reparations, we take direct deposit motherfucker.
Germany did, after WW1, the way I vaguely remember my history lessons though, is that the treaty of Versailles was seen as a national embarrassment to Germany following the war and certain didn't help in preventing the following strong rise of nationalism in the country.
I don't know of any other similar examples, but it would be an important part of any reparations to make sure that lessons are learned from that treaty to avoid similar sentiment in the public in organising them, otherwise they'll end up with nationalistic governments who just outright refuse to pay.
User banned (permanent): Advocating for colonialism. Previous bans for excusing racism and sexism.
Nah not really I say to the victor goes the spoils. If they can't defend themselves then tough shit. Same goes for them, China is currently fucking over Africa so, you ain't gonna see any calls for reparations as they strip mine their entire country. It's easy to bully western european countries over stuff like this.
Yeah, maybe ill start with the treat of Versailles and try to branch out. im curious how some of this stuff would be structured and the results of it. thank ya
Responses like "what exactly do you suggest we do? There is no reasonable way to pay this back." are a very colonist-centric point of view. The answer is simple: pay back what your country stole. The problem with that is obviously that many nations probably can't afford that toll, and they would likely go bankrupt trying to do it.
Depending on your point of view, that isn't a problem, seeing as the colonized nations didn't really have a choice and were robbed by literal force. When you're on top, equality feels like oppression. This is as true in Europe as it is in the USA.
Since former colonial nations are still on top of the world pecking order (wonder how that happened?), there's no way to enforce that, so an increase in foreign aid is probably the only band aid at this point that has a reasonable chance of going through.
Depending on your point of view, that isn't a problem, seeing as the colonized nations didn't really have a choice and were robbed by literal force. When you're on top, equality feels like oppression. This is as true in Europe as it is in the USA.
Since former colonial nations are still on top of the world pecking order (wonder how that happened?), there's no way to enforce that, so an increase in foreign aid is probably the only band aid at this point that has a reasonable chance of going through.
See I kinda wonder if you guys will ever wake up to the realization that the strong eats the weak. The implication here is also that China and other East Asian nations didn't mess around with colonialism. Japan certain liked to mess around with Korea. Do we go back and ask for reperations when the Mongols went around ? How about when China lied to an entire world and caused world wide economic damage by silencing doctors about COVID?
FYI going down the Versaillies route is dangerous and you'll end up creating more nationalists.We still hate the French for how they divided up Hungary, meanwhile Germany got away scott free in terms of territories.
FYI going down the Versaillies route is dangerous and you'll end up creating more nationalists.We still hate the French for how they divided up Hungary, meanwhile Germany got away scott free in terms of territories.
Are you done shitting out your dumb takes or do you have more shit to write?
When talking about historical stuff, maybe educate yourself better beforehand.
I have always wondered what kind of immigration laws Europe has that have managed to keep the number of black people who live there so low. Africa is right next door (only 9 miles away at its shortest point) and European countries have profited greatly from doing business in African countries with large black populations. Why aren't black Africans allowed to live in Europe with any meaningful numbers?
Something that I don't think is obvious to non-UK residents: the industrial revolution is deeply ingrained in the identity of cities like Manchester and Liverpool as a point of pride. To this day Manchester residents affix the bee - a symbol of busy industry - to their cars, it adorns the windows of bars, and it's used in murals and other commemorative artworks and memorials. The city remembered the dead in the 2017 Arena bombing by huddling around the bee.
That revolution, though, had an incalculably horrific human cost, as this speech neatly describes. Not only were British, Welsh, Irish, and Scottish breadline families worked to their deaths among the smokestacks, but Indian businesspeople and workers had their livelihoods (and often lives) stripped away from them to make those at-home sacrifices possible. It's ghoulishness compounded.
I don't believe there's much that can be done to separate the identity of cities like Manchester from that past, because for the average person the bee is an abstract symbol of regional / city solidarity. But the fact that the British Raj is so glossed over in our history lessons AND in our culture, along with other colonial "interventions" should be a source of endless shame. Manchester and Liverpool are cool cities, but they're also built on the bones of several countries' worth of poor, dispossessed, downtrodden, and dead - not just our own.
I can't really conceive of any repayment or reparations strategy that would be workable right now, but neither is continuing to brush our monstrous past under the carpet.
This but unironically. Civ needs more interesting humanitarian victories.
Some of these former colonies were still colonized less than 100 years ago. Plenty still haven't 100% decolonized.
The damage they have done and continue to do is too great, I don't even know what could be done at this point. This is such a complex and deeply emotional topic.
White people went there exploited the lands and its people, stole their resources, took their people and made them slaves in another country. Genocided ethnic groups, split the continent up between themself as if it were a playground, forcing ethnic groups that were not on good terms with each other to live in the same country and by doing so creating even more suffering that is lasting to this day.
I think the first thing they should do is fuck off the continent and stop exploiting it economically.
Edit: Oh my god I didn't notice at first but what are those first few pages? Some folks really showing their true colours. Cool
White people went there exploited the lands and its people, stole their resources, took their people and made them slaves in another country. Genocided ethnic groups, split the continent up between themself as if it were a playground, forcing ethnic groups that were not on good terms with each other to live in the same country and by doing so creating even more suffering that is lasting to this day.
I think the first thing they should do is fuck off the continent and stop exploiting it economically.
Edit: Oh my god I didn't notice at first but what are those first few pages? Some folks really showing their true colours. Cool
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Wow the first page is a graveyard. Kind of not surprised that gaming side opinions are so dismissive.
I actually agree that UK needs to pay for the rape and pillaging of the subcontinent. This was not even that long ago people. You can't just fuck up so colossally and then say "oh well let's move on."
I actually agree that UK needs to pay for the rape and pillaging of the subcontinent. This was not even that long ago people. You can't just fuck up so colossally and then say "oh well let's move on."
This is key. Any reparations paid would be taken from foreign aid funds and the end result probably wouldn't be that different.For those who dismiss this idea entirely, (war) reparations in Europe are certainly a thing.
Germany for example payed war reparations for the First World War up until 2010. https://www.zeit.de/wissen/geschichte/2010-10/weltkrieg-schulden-deutschland
Second World War is a bit more complicated because of the way Germany had to repay their reparations.
On the other hand, the EU / european countries are already by far Africa's largest donor via foreign aid.
The collective Official Development Assistance (ODA) from the European Union and its Member States amounted to €75.2 billion in 2019, representing 55.2% of global assistance, according to preliminary figures released today by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development's Development Assistance Committee (OECD-DAC).
You could argue to recognize some of the money as reparations (which wouldn't change the amount, but maybe who gets it (like families or tribes affected the most)) or pay a certain amount on top of this, recognized as reparations.
It's obvious that it also is very important from a geopolitical and defense perspective to produce your own food. If Europe stopped subsidizing our agriculture and instead imported from Africa a likely tragic outcome would be European powers going to war in Africa come the next food crisis.
Funny I just saw this show up on my feed:
UK has a lot of repayment to do.
I work for a french company that finance and organise, in cooperation with the governement, nearly a thousand developpment projects, 80% of which are located in the african continent, the rest being in south america and asia. Projects related to infrastructure, health and education. So what the OP is asking for is already happening to a small extent.
Could we do more? I think so, too, but now is not the time. Not when the goverment is already struggling with deficit, mainly because a bunch of multinationnals refuse to pay their share of taxes. Not when our army need more money due to the russian threat. And most of all not when we're in the middle of a pandemic, and a major economic crisis that is barely starting!
Could we do more? I think so, too, but now is not the time. Not when the goverment is already struggling with deficit, mainly because a bunch of multinationnals refuse to pay their share of taxes. Not when our army need more money due to the russian threat. And most of all not when we're in the middle of a pandemic, and a major economic crisis that is barely starting!
Because before modern times there was no need for immigration for european countries as they had healthy enough demographics without it (high birth rates and tons of young people). Actually there was mass emigration from Europe to especially Americas in 1800s and early 1900s (over 60 million people). The share of minorities has risen during last few decades mainly because demographics collapse of western Europe and so need for extra workforce. Immigration follows the needs of economy and demographics. I mean only reason why US has high black population is that they were forced to US back during slave trade.
User Banned (1 Month): Concern trolling and whataboutism on the effects of colonialism
OK, if this principle applies then we should apply it further back. The UK needs to be compensated for:
- celtic invasion from Eastern Europe
- Roman invasion from Italy
- Saxon etc invasions from Germany/Denmark
- Irish raiders from well, take a guess.
- Pict invasions from Scotland
- Viking invasions from Scandinavia,
- Norman invasions from France
- we need compensation from France for the loss of Normandy
Etc etc
Then, once all this is sorted out we can discuss the UK's compensation bill to it's former colonies.
The central counter argument to this line of reasoning is why should people alive today pay money for acts done 150+ years ago? You'd essentially bankrupt every western country, probably every country actually given every country has at some point done a wrong against another country or people. I am sure the African countries prior to the arrival of Europeans were busy attacking each other, forming empires etc.
The only people to benefit from it would be the lawyers and accountants who'd do all the work.
- celtic invasion from Eastern Europe
- Roman invasion from Italy
- Saxon etc invasions from Germany/Denmark
- Irish raiders from well, take a guess.
- Pict invasions from Scotland
- Viking invasions from Scandinavia,
- Norman invasions from France
- we need compensation from France for the loss of Normandy
Etc etc
Then, once all this is sorted out we can discuss the UK's compensation bill to it's former colonies.
The central counter argument to this line of reasoning is why should people alive today pay money for acts done 150+ years ago? You'd essentially bankrupt every western country, probably every country actually given every country has at some point done a wrong against another country or people. I am sure the African countries prior to the arrival of Europeans were busy attacking each other, forming empires etc.
The only people to benefit from it would be the lawyers and accountants who'd do all the work.
While it's fine to discuss the difficulties of addressing such a huge sweeping issue, the moral grandstanding of a lot of Euro centric views in this thread sure was enlightening.
There are entire regions of the world currently fucked because of recent colonialism, very real and recent problems that contribute both to the colonialists current advantages as well as the indigenous people's current plights.
That people are worried far right sentiments will be given a louder voice in such a discussion shouldn't be a reason to ignore these problems, that's all the more reason the discussions need to happen so more progressive ideas can be normalized and we really can start to plan action in a meaningful way, with the support of the people.
Edit: You'd think just glancing over the first page would tell certain posters with certain attitudes to not say certain stupid shit, too.
There are entire regions of the world currently fucked because of recent colonialism, very real and recent problems that contribute both to the colonialists current advantages as well as the indigenous people's current plights.
That people are worried far right sentiments will be given a louder voice in such a discussion shouldn't be a reason to ignore these problems, that's all the more reason the discussions need to happen so more progressive ideas can be normalized and we really can start to plan action in a meaningful way, with the support of the people.
Edit: You'd think just glancing over the first page would tell certain posters with certain attitudes to not say certain stupid shit, too.
What do we consider to count as "paying", though? Spain for example invests millions across Latin America with the AECID agency, helping fund project both public and private across those nations.
There's also the Carolina Foundation set by the Spanish govt that grants university scholarships to hundreds of Latin American students every year.
Finally, all holders of citizenships of any country formerly colonised by Spain (including all of Latin America, but also the Philippines and Equatorial Guinea, but excluding the US) can apply for Spanish citizenship after only 2 years of legal residence (even EU citizens have harsher requirements)
The Ibero-American conference is held every two years where Spain, Portugal and all the former American colonies work together to improve the political and economical relationships. Spain often sends neutral observers to Latin American elections.
Descendants of the Judeo-Spanish population unjustly kicked out of Spain over 500 years ago were recently granted the possibility of acquiring citizenship and returning.
I don't know if much else can be done.
There's also the Carolina Foundation set by the Spanish govt that grants university scholarships to hundreds of Latin American students every year.
Finally, all holders of citizenships of any country formerly colonised by Spain (including all of Latin America, but also the Philippines and Equatorial Guinea, but excluding the US) can apply for Spanish citizenship after only 2 years of legal residence (even EU citizens have harsher requirements)
The Ibero-American conference is held every two years where Spain, Portugal and all the former American colonies work together to improve the political and economical relationships. Spain often sends neutral observers to Latin American elections.
Descendants of the Judeo-Spanish population unjustly kicked out of Spain over 500 years ago were recently granted the possibility of acquiring citizenship and returning.
I don't know if much else can be done.
India and Pakistan gained independence in 1947. That ain't even 75 years ago. The Queen of England right now is 20 yrs older than that.
The wealth of colonial nations today is built on suffering of and exploitation of people who are still alive today, and who continue to suffer because of what their lands were subjected to. People in western countries today continue to benefit from this exploitation. With your line of reasoning we shouldn't hold anyone responsible for anything as long as it was in the past. Should there be no form of justice for crimes just because the criminals fucked off?
The responsible and moral thing to do would be to promote and foster these lands with funding, technology, schooling etc without expectation of anything in return. At least at a much higher level that currently occurs.
geez from the attitudes of some on here we should start invade and pillage some more countries, our grandchildren can say they have nothing to do with it