It is disappointing that the N64 had so little RPG's.

Inglorious Man · Mar 2, 2021

When I was younger I got a N64 at launch and boy was I excited to play some great RPG's on the N64. I was expecting a new Earthbound and Final Fantasy game. Maybe a new Breath of Fire game. Looking back I should have known. The N64 had very little RPG's. Quest 64 was a bad game. Paper Mario was a great game though. I understand that the main reason that N64 did not have RPG's is because it used cartridges. I also noticed that companies like Capcom, Square, Enix, and Konami mainly developed games for Playstation at the time and many of the RPG'S would be released on Playstation. Even the Saturn had a better RPG library than the N64 with games like Panzer Dragoon Saga, Shining the Holy Arc, and Dragon Force.

Even with the limitations of the N64 using cartridges I think that Nintendo should have developed more RPG's internally. Was there anyway that the N64 could have had more RPG's even though it used cartridges?

daninthemix · Mar 2, 2021

I guess it's odd that there wasn't a Fire Emblem?

Zanasea · Mar 2, 2021

[People who play RPGs are] "depressed gamers who like to sit alone in their dark rooms and play slow games." - Hiroshi Yamauchi in 1999

So...

killuglypop · Mar 2, 2021

Zanasea said:
[People who play RPGs are] "depressed gamers who like to sit alone in their dark rooms and play slow games." - Hiroshi Yamauchi in 1999

So...

This. Plus the limitation of cartridges

ghostcrew · Mar 2, 2021

I'm a big N64 nerd but it's biggest weakness was it's glaring omissions in certain genres. It was the king console if you wanted platformers or shooters but...

JRPGs?
Fighting games?
Racing games?

As you said, in terms of JRPGs it had shit like Holy Magic Century at best.
For fighting games it's best efforts were things like Killer Intinct Gold (a port of Killer Instinct 2), Mortal Kombat Trilogy and Rakuga Kids realistically. Meanwhile, the Saturn and PlayStation were getting things like Street Fighter Alpha 3, Marvel Super Heroes, Virtua Fighter, Tekken 3 etc...
For fighting games, I essentially went to wrestling games where, thankfully, the N64 shone.
Racing games were a real mixed bag. It obviously had it won with kart racers (Mario Kart 64, Diddy Kong Racing and Rare's Mickey's Speedway USA) but really nothing to rival the motorsport games like Gran Turismo, Sega Rally and Colin McRae that were showing up on other platforms. We had GT64, Top Gear Rally, MRC... basically very little. In retrospect, Ridge Racer 64 is a really good RR game but it pailed in comparison to R4 that came out around the same time. It was basically an expansion of Ridge Racer Revolution.

Edit: yes we had a ton of other things f-zero and wave race etc but in terms of GT-likes or proper rally games... very dry.

Fat4all · Mar 2, 2021

killuglypop said:
This. Plus the limitation of cartridges

ps1 also allowed for lots of FMVs, which were trending huge for the RPG audience at the time

UltraMagnus · Mar 2, 2021

The fact that no one at Nintendo stood up and said "well maybe we should compromise with our developer partners and include a CD drive to go with the cartridge slot for the N64 because people kind of like the Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest games" still to this day blows my mind.

Or maybe someone did but they were obviously ignored.

I think if Enix had come out and said straight up to Nintendo "we want CDs or bust" straight up instead of kinda half committing to the 64DD that would've knocked some sense into them.

carrot_ · Mar 2, 2021

Despite Quest 64 not being very good, I still have such a soft spot for it because it was the first N64 game I ever played. The music and some of the locations and environments were so great! It's just too bad the actual game beneath everything was so lacking.

Kain · Mar 2, 2021

Cartridges killed rpgs just at the time all the companies were jumping into FMVs and such.

At least in home consoles, on portable they were always strong

super-famicom · Mar 2, 2021

Quest 64 was incredibly disappointing. As a child, I wished for a Final Fantasy or an Earthbound sequel to make its way to the N64.

Inglorious Man · Mar 2, 2021

daninthemix said:
I guess it's odd that there wasn't a Fire Emblem?

You know what is funny Nintendo released a Fire Emblem game in 1999 for the Super Famicom Flash Cartridge. It was called Fire Emblem: Thracia 776. They did not even bother developing a Fire Emblem game for the N64.

Fire Emblem: Thracia 776 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Edge · Mar 2, 2021

Or.
Games in general.

Strings · Mar 2, 2021

Inglorious Man said:
You know what is funny Nintendo released a Fire Emblem game in 1999 for the Super Famicom Flash Cartridge. It was called Fire Emblem: Thracia 776. They did not even bother developing a Fire Emblem game for the N64.

Fire Emblem: Thracia 776 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

They did bother, but it was cancelled due to tech issues (and Kaga leaving I suppose).

Fire Emblem 64

Fire Emblem 64 (Japanese: ファイアーエムブレム64 Fire Emblem 64)[2] is a canceled and unreleased Fire Emblem series project which was intended to be released for the Nintendo 64DD, an expansion device to the Nintendo 64 console allowing the use of disk storage media.[3] Little is known about this project...

fireemblemwiki.org

P-Bo · Mar 2, 2021

Inglorious Man said:
You know what is funny Nintendo released a Fire Emblem game in 1999 for the Super Famicom Flash Cartridge. It was called Fire Emblem: Thracia 776. They did not even bother developing a Fire Emblem game for the N64.

Fire Emblem: Thracia 776 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I could have sworn I read somewhere that they were working on Fire Emblem 64, along with the ill-fated Mother 64. The main protag was going to be named Paris, and the game ultimately ended up becoming Path of Radiance.

Although it's been so long I could have fabricated that memory, I'll try to see if I can verify.

*EDIT* NVM, post above says it all.

Bushido · Mar 2, 2021

ghostcrew said:
Racing games?

Racing games were a real mixed bag. It obviously had it won with kart racers (Mario Kart 64, Diddy Kong Racing and Rare's Mickey's Speedway USA) but really nothing to rival the likes of Gran Turismo, Sega Rally, Daytona USA and Colin McRae that were showing up on other platforms. We had GT64, Top Gear Rally, MRC... basically very little. In retrospect, Ridge Racer 64 is a really good RR game but it pailed in comparison to R4 that came out around the same time. It was basically an expansion of Ridge Racer Revolution.

Kinda true when you look at more realistic racing games, but overall it had a quite diverse line-up of racers. On top of the ones you mentioned for example Beetle Adventure Racing, Top Gear Overdrive, F1 World Grand Prix, F-Zero X, Extreme-G, Star Wars Episode 1 Racer, Wave Race, Excitebike, Snowboard Kids...all of which were good to excellent and most of them N64 exclusives at the time.

ghostcrew · Mar 2, 2021

I think it's easy to say that JRPGs instantly transitioned to FMV and CD filling audio etc but, equally, the PlayStation and Saturn were still knocking out JRPGs that looked essentially like this and there's no reason the N64 couldn't have squeezed something the scope of previous cartridge based JRPGs (like FF6 or DQV) onto a cartridge... We didn't need FF8 FMV cutscenes or CGI backgrounds with CD audio...

Deleted member 8752 · Mar 2, 2021

At least there's this which I hear is amazing:

Ogre Battle 64

I still plan to play it someday.

LazyLain · Mar 2, 2021

Ogre Battle 64 and Hybrid Heaven were all I needed

LinkStrikesBack · Mar 2, 2021

Zanasea said:
[People who play RPGs are] "depressed gamers who like to sit alone in their dark rooms and play slow games." - Hiroshi Yamauchi in 1999

So...

...
Well, I wish I could say he was entirely wrong about me...

Alvis · Mar 2, 2021

Inglorious Man said:
You know what is funny Nintendo released a Fire Emblem game in 1999 for the Super Famicom Flash Cartridge. It was called Fire Emblem: Thracia 776. They did not even bother developing a Fire Emblem game for the N64.

Fire Emblem: Thracia 776 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

There was one in development at one point

I think this is the only screenshot that exists of it:

Acetown · Mar 2, 2021

ghostcrew said:
I think it's easy to say that JRPGs instantly transitioned to FMV and CD filling audio etc but, equally, the PlayStation and Saturn were still knocking out JRPGs that looked essentially like this and there's no reason the N64 couldn't have squeezed something the scope of previous cartridge based JRPGs (like FF6 or DQV) onto a cartridge... We didn't need FF8 FMV cutscenes or CGI backgrounds with CD audio...

You could flip this and say that there's no good excuse to make these games for the N64 because they wouldn't take advantage of its power. The N64 wasn't very successful in Japan which was the primary market for role playing games, and on top of that it was really expensive to develop for because of the high cost of manufacturing even the lowest capacity cartridges.

ghostcrew · Mar 2, 2021

Bushido said:
Kinda true when you look at more realistic racing games, but overall it had a quite diverse line-up of racers. On top of the ones you mentioned for example Beetle Adventure Racing, Top Gear Overdrive, F1 World Grand Prix, F-Zero X, Extreme-G, Star Wars Episode 1 Racer, Wave Race, Excitebike, Snowboard Kids...all of which were good to excellent and most of them N64 exclusives at the time.

You're totally right. I started typing out a rant about realistic/sim racers and accidentally bundled all racers in there with it.

I really meant the state of competition to things like Gran Turismo and even Saturn things like Sega Rally and Manx TT. More realistic, 'adult' racers (for want of a better term).

We did get a Wipeout and a Ridge Racer but all too late. And you're right about F1 games.

Just always felt like, in a world where Gran Turismo and Colin McRae were the racing games of the moment, N64 players were left with (still good) cartoony looking things like Snowboard Kids, Mario Kart and F-Zero and then a whole bunch of really average realstic games like MRC and Top Gear Rally.

RisingStar · Mar 2, 2021

daninthemix said:
I guess it's odd that there wasn't a Fire Emblem?

I mean it didn't have a Metroid either, which was a bigger franchise back then.

BriGuy · Mar 2, 2021

UltraMagnus said:
The fact that no one at Nintendo stood up and said "well maybe we should compromise with our developer partners and include a CD drive to go with the cartridge slot for the N64 because people kind of like the Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest games" still to this day blows my mind.

I don't think even Nintendo could pull off selling a $600 console in 1995. But it's hard to imagine how different things would be now if they opted for CDs over discs.

Celine · Mar 2, 2021

ghostcrew said:
I think it's easy to say that JRPGs instantly transitioned to FMV and CD filling audio etc but, equally, the PlayStation and Saturn were still knocking out JRPGs that looked essentially like this and there's no reason the N64 couldn't have squeezed something the scope of previous cartridge based JRPGs (like FF6 or DQV) onto a cartridge... We didn't need FF8 FMV cutscenes or CGI backgrounds with CD audio...

Aside from obvious economic reasons (the bigger the games is, the more it cost to produce on cart whereas CD fixed cost to manufacture was cheap and contained enough space for any genre to be equal), I think that the transition phase you described for the RPG genre (even if it used polygons it was conceptually building over the 2D structures refined in previous generations) wouldn't mesh well with the N64 idea of full 3D which the console was pushing at the time.
When a small japanese publisher like Imagineer tackled the genre they were obviously inspired by Mario 64 idea to roam freely in a 3D space and so you have full 3D town and relatively big (for the time) open fields.
But I bet that for a lot of japanese developers that level of complexity was considered not worthy for that specific genre.
It made much more sense to develop 2D or mixed 2D/3D RPG for PS1 or Saturn which build over the templates already honed during previous generation (adding FMV or polygonal characters to give a more next gen feel).

Biske · Mar 2, 2021

Peltz said:
At least there's this which I hear is amazing:

Ogre Battle 64

I still plan to play it someday.

LazyLain said:
Ogre Battle 64 and Hybrid Heaven were all I needed

Yup. Having Ogre Battle 64 on the system was an embarrassment of riches and all that was needed to make it the greatest console ever. It's probably my most favorite game ever made and the one I played the most, I think I played it 4 or more times back to back to experiment out the different paths and characters you could get, played it along side my brother in law who did the same thing and it was one of the best experiences of my childhood.

Id play during the day, he'd play at night and we'd compare our experience. "Oh crap you were able to recruit that guy? How?" "Oh my god how did you get that? You had to do what?"

Was just amazing. It's a god damn sin Square Enix wastes the property so much, which I definitely don't want them fucking about and bastardizing it without the team at quest/matsuno, they should have put out some remasters and shit.

Spinosaurus · Mar 2, 2021

It had Hybrid Heaven, and in my IMO every system needs Hybrid Heaven.

L Thammy · Mar 2, 2021

N64's lineup was pretty dire despite landmark titles and region exclusivity made it worse. I have to assume that N64 owners would have latched onto Bangai-O, Custom Robo and Custom Robo V2, and Sin & Punishment like they were starving.

In terms of RPGs, I can't really think of a whole lot of straightforward ones though. Super Robot Wars 64 is an SRPG along the lines of Fire Emblem, Wonder Project J2 is probably more of an adventure game / simulation game. Apparently there was an Ultraman RPG and a Robopon game too?

Ryuelli · Mar 2, 2021

ghostcrew said:
Racing games?

N64 had Beetle Adventure Racing, so it wins this category by default.

ghostcrew · Mar 2, 2021

Celine said:
Aside from obvious economic reasons (the bigger the games is, the most it cost to produce on cart whereas CD fixed cost to manufacture was cheap and contained enough space for any genre to be equal), I think that the transition phase you described for the RPG genre (even if it used polygons it was conceptually building over the 2D structures refined in previous generations) wouldn't mesh well with the N64 idea of full 3D which the console was pushing at the time.
When a small japanese publisher like Imagineer tackled the genre they were obviously inspired by Mario 64 idea to roam freely in a 3D space and so you have full 3D town and relatively big (for the time) open fields.
It made much more sense to develop 2D or mixed 2D/3D RPG for PS1 or Saturn which build over the templates already honed during previous generation (adding FMV or polygonal characters to give a more next gen feel).

Cursed images

Inglorious Man · Mar 2, 2021

ghostcrew said:
I think it's easy to say that JRPGs instantly transitioned to FMV and CD filling audio etc but, equally, the PlayStation and Saturn were still knocking out JRPGs that looked essentially like this and there's no reason the N64 couldn't have squeezed something the scope of previous cartridge based JRPGs (like FF6 or DQV) onto a cartridge... We didn't need FF8 FMV cutscenes or CGI backgrounds with CD audio...

I agree these game could have been developed for the N64. I think Nintendo should have developed a sprite based Earthbound game and not the 3d based game that they were developing for Earthbound 64.

Reinhardt Schneider · Mar 2, 2021

Zanasea said:
[People who play RPGs are] "depressed gamers who like to sit alone in their dark rooms and play slow games." - Hiroshi Yamauchi in 1999

So...

I dislike Yamauchi's agressiveness quite a bit, but... Wasn't this after 3 years of the N64 seeing almost not RPGs, with Square shafting Nintendo and convincing Enix to follow them?

I would be bitter, too...

werezompire · Mar 2, 2021

ghostcrew said:
I think it's easy to say that JRPGs instantly transitioned to FMV and CD filling audio etc but, equally, the PlayStation and Saturn were still knocking out JRPGs that looked essentially like this and there's no reason the N64 couldn't have squeezed something the scope of previous cartridge based JRPGs (like FF6 or DQV) onto a cartridge... We didn't need FF8 FMV cutscenes or CGI backgrounds with CD audio...

Even if you got rid of the FMV sequences, the CD audio, and the voice acting, I don't think you could fit Grandia on an N64 cart. It's still a huge RPG with 3D enviornments and the towns in particular are a lot more detailed than you saw in other RPGs of the time (with each town having its own visual style & house interiors having lots of random things in them). The game came on 2 discs after all (although some of that is repeated between discs & a lot of it is audio & FMV).

EDIT: Wasn't the max cart size on the N64 only 64MBs? The PS1 classic version on the PSN takes up 850MBs.

super etrian odyssey · Mar 2, 2021

ghostcrew said:
I think it's easy to say that JRPGs instantly transitioned to FMV and CD filling audio etc but, equally, the PlayStation and Saturn were still knocking out JRPGs that looked essentially like this and there's no reason the N64 couldn't have squeezed something the scope of previous cartridge based JRPGs (like FF6 or DQV) onto a cartridge... We didn't need FF8 FMV cutscenes or CGI backgrounds with CD audio...

all of these look so good to me. i'm such a fan of polished mid 90s 2D/early 3d, i can't help it.

ghostcrew · Mar 2, 2021

Acetown said:
You could flip this and say that there's no good excuse to make these games for the N64 because they wouldn't take advantage of its power.

I agree to a point but Nintendo themselves were still developing 2D games like Yoshi's Story, publishing sprite based games like Killer Instict Gold and other devs were making things like Mischief Makers and Ogre Battle 64. Not every game had to be some big, 3D showcase.

I think the latter point (the lack of Japanese support) was the bigger issue.

SmittyWerbenManJensen · Mar 2, 2021

Yeah, I prefer big RPGs instead.

z1ggy · Mar 2, 2021

Yep, one of the reasons why i disliked the N64 back in the day was the lack of RPGs. Nintendo ditching CDs was a terrible decision.

ghostcrew · Mar 2, 2021

werezompire said:
Even if you got rid of the FMV sequences, the CD audio, and the voice acting, I don't think you could fit Grandia on an N64 cart. It's still a huge RPG with 3D enviornments and the towns in particular are a lot more detailed than you saw in other RPGs of the time (with each town having its own visual style & house interiors having lots of random things in them). The game came on 2 discs after all (although some of that is repeated between discs & a lot of it is audio & FMV).

If the Resident Evil 2 port could work, I'm a believer in anything! :D

I do agree though that the larger issue, realistically, was asking JRPG devs to make all of those compromises when the PlayStation and Saturn were sitting over there with CD support and an ingrained, existing JRPG audience. My main point is just not necessarily agreeing that cartridge=no JRPGs just because FF7 did big FMVs (to be a little reductive). Would've loved to have seen a continuation of the 16 bit JRPG (that flurished on cartridges) continue on the N64. Felt weird to just see JRPGs die on a Nintendo platform.

I reckon we could've theoretically, in my ideal world, seen more 2D based JRPGs on the N64 but, realistically, the development process probably meant a ton of compromises and all to try and release a game on a platform that wasn't really setting the charts on fire and had no proven record of JRPG buyers.

I know which way I would've gone if I had to sign off the development of a game in that era. Sucks in terms of the N64 library but it is what it is.

DimitriLH · Mar 2, 2021

Ogre Battle 64 still the best RPG on that console, was also pretty with its unique sprite work at the time~

Pheonix · Mar 2, 2021

You have cartridges to blame for that. The standard had been set on what a modern RPG could and should be like. And those came in 2-4 discs on the PS1.

They still managed a hall decent rn at it though.

Zanasea · Mar 2, 2021

Reinhardt Schneider said:
I dislike Yamauchi's agressiveness quite a bit, but... Wasn't this after 3 years of the N64 seeing almost not RPGs, with Square shafting Nintendo and convincing Enix to follow them?

I would be bitter, too...

Yes, this is the context of this quote.

Although according to former Square Enix CEO Yoichi Wada (here), Square wasn't very subtle about their "divorce" with Nintendo and openly criticized their "backward" business model (by which they meant the cardridge model, as opposed to Sony's disc-based console). This led the two companies to lose all diplomatic relations. (Well, he also mentions a possible love and hate relationship between Square's founder--I believe he means Masafumi Miyamoto--and Yamauchi.)

ghostcrew · Mar 2, 2021

Zanasea said:
Yes, this is the context of this quote.

Although according to former Square Enix CEO Yoichi Wada (here), Square wasn't very subtle about their "divorce" with Nintendo and openly criticized their "backward" business model (by which they meant the cardridge model, as opposed to Sony's disc-based console). This led the two companies to lose all diplomatic relations. (Well, he also mentions a possible love and hate relationship between Square's founder--I believe he means Masafumi Miyamoto--and Yamauchi.)

Must've absolutely slayed Yamauchi to see what Final Fantasy 7 went on to become.

KtSlime · Mar 2, 2021

Fat4all said:
ps1 also allowed for lots of FMVs, which were trending huge for the RPG audience at the time

Yeah, essentially the 64 missed out on RPGs because of a late 90's fad. Oh well, what's done is done.

fiendcode · Mar 2, 2021

ghostcrew said:
I'm a big N64 nerd but it's biggest weakness was it's glaring omissions in certain genres. It was the king console if you wanted platformers or shooters but...

JRPGs?
Fighting games?
Racing games?

As you said, in terms of JRPGs it had shit like Holy Magic Century at best.
For fighting games it's best efforts were things like Killer Intinct Gold (a port of Killer Instinct 2), Mortal Kombat Trilogy and Rakuga Kids realistically. Meanwhile, the Saturn and PlayStation were getting things like Street Fighter Alpha 3, Marvel Super Heroes, Virtua Fighter, Tekken 3 etc...
For fighting games, I essentially went to wrestling games where, thankfully, the N64 shone.
Racing games were a real mixed bag. It obviously had it won with kart racers (Mario Kart 64, Diddy Kong Racing and Rare's Mickey's Speedway USA) but really nothing to rival the likes of Gran Turismo, Sega Rally, Daytona USA and Colin McRae that were showing up on other platforms. We had GT64, Top Gear Rally, MRC... basically very little. In retrospect, Ridge Racer 64 is a really good RR game but it pailed in comparison to R4 that came out around the same time. It was basically an expansion of Ridge Racer Revolution.

N64 was on life support for rpgs and fighters but racers? No, it had a ton of decent to great stuff there; Wave Race 64, F-Zero X, Excitebike 64, 1080, World Driver Championship, Beetle Adventure Racing, Top Gear series (Overdrive, Rally, Hyper Bike), Star Wars E1 Racer, Hydro Thunder, SF Rush 1-2/2049, F-1 World GP 1-2, MRC, GT64, Twisted Edge, Wipeout 64, Extreme-G 1-2, RR64, Stunt Racer 64, etc, etc. In addition to the kids/kart stuff you mentioned (MK64, DKR, Mickey's Speedway USA, Snowboard Kids 1-2, Penny Racers/ChoroQ, etc).

I mean really, racers are probably one of the better represented genres on N64.

Fat4all · Mar 2, 2021

n64 has starcraft at least

i made cardboard split screen shields so me and my bud couldn't cheat

KtSlime · Mar 2, 2021

UltraMagnus said:
The fact that no one at Nintendo stood up and said "well maybe we should compromise with our developer partners and include a CD drive to go with the cartridge slot for the N64 because people kind of like the Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest games" still to this day blows my mind.

Or maybe someone did but they were obviously ignored.

I think if Enix had come out and said straight up to Nintendo "we want CDs or bust" straight up instead of kinda half committing to the 64DD that would've knocked some sense into them.

Enix was making DQ7 for 64DD, no CD was required, but Nintendo released late and in the mean time they got swayed by Square and decided to put it out on PlayStation, which delated it even more. In the end we got a very very late PSX release with bad CG to fit in with the cool kids and appeal to the West one last time. It failed though, the West ignored DQ as usual despite the platform change and fad following.

Shirkelton · Mar 2, 2021

Zanasea said:
[People who play RPGs are] "depressed gamers who like to sit alone in their dark rooms and play slow games." - Hiroshi Yamauchi in 1999

So...

Well, he's got me there.

Fat4all · Mar 2, 2021

Shirkelton said:
Well, he's got me there.

we smirk through the pain

Shirkelton · Mar 2, 2021

This is actually kind of twisting my head around now, because I just sort of assumed - and maybe my brain filled in the blanks a bit since - that the N64 did have some RPGs worth playing, but I can't remember playing a single one.

sora87 · Mar 2, 2021

LinkStrikesBack said:
...
Well, I wish I could say he was entirely wrong about me...

I know right, it's like "well yeah but you're leaving money on the table by not giving our depressed asses what we want"

It is disappointing that the N64 had so little RPG's.

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