I just wish the word 'trash' wasn't used as a catch all for 'genuinely terrible' through to 'somewhat disappointing'.
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ResetEra is what we make of it. We have a thriving community of thousands of users who all love to play and discuss games. Already I think we are leagues better than other forums, but we can be better. We can always be better.
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I agree that discussion level in this place is getting lower all the time. NeoGAF was bad at the end but everything about ResetEra feels more serious.
And yeah, there's that too: there aren't as many joke threads or fun threads overall, they get closed all the time a few posts in for trolling or whatever, yet negative threads are allowed to grow with no issue. That fosters a mostly negative environment. Have you noticed how over a year into the forum's life there aren't as many in-jokes or memorable memes? This place at times feels like it's so afraid of getting taken over by trolls that people aren't allowed to lighten up.
But by all means, a monthly thread about how much Uncharted 4 fucking sucks? Go right ahead.
This is what gets meToo many times have I seen this, too many times have I seen someone upset about something being told to shut up because to them, criticism or "Outrage" = Harassment or if one arsehole thinks death threats is a good idea to do, that means anyone with similar criticism MUST think death threats are good which is nonsense, especially when we're talking about games.
Great post. I especially agree that problems with a game/developer should be discussed. So people should make separate threads about them.[LONG POST WARNING]
This is something I've been mulling over for quite some time now, and this thread seems like a good time to finally post it.
First off, this is not a problem that is endemic to ResetEra - it's the entire gaming community on the internet. Large groups of people that all have varying interests will naturally flow towards some form of confrontation. Console wars, for instance, have been a thing for decades. We all have our "favorite thing," and even if we outwardly say otherwise, we always find a way to feel incredulous when we discover that someone else didn't like the thing as much as we did. That's something that each of us needs to do better, myself included. We all prefer different systems, genres, series, individual games, and that's OK.
There are a few specific things revolving around this I want to touch on -
LTTP threads -
If someone makes an LTTP thread about a game and they thoroughly enjoyed it, jumping in to say "nah, OP, that game was terrible" doesn't add anything to the conversation. That's not to say you have to like the game in the same way the OP did, but you don't need to go out of your way to convince the OP and others that they are wrong. That's just needless confrontation and serves to distract from the point of the OP's thread, which was to celebrate their experience.
Conversely, if someone didn't like a game, you don't have to convince the OP that they were wrong, either. It's appropriate to have a discussion on things they didn't like and see if the OP simply missed something, -
e.g., "Hey OP, you said that one part of Level 3 sucked. Did you know you can double jump? Makes that part a lot easier."
OP: :o
OTs, Preview, Review, and News threads are the best places for those who like/dislike it to come together. Same rule applies, though - if you want to have a discussion on the finer points of the game and why they are good or bad, then have that discussion. But going into the thread with the intent of riling people up because you have a difference of personal opinion on a thing that others like or dislike is just asking for trouble.
Dogpiling -
In general, this stuff needs to calm down. Somewhat related to the LTTP threads, just because someone likes/dislikes something doesn't mean they need to be brigaded or have a million replies to come back to. The biggest offender of this in recent months is any thread that has to do with EGS.
The #1 reason people buy games is because they want to play them. I know that sounds like common sense, but sometimes I think we get lost in a lot of extraneous technicalities and nuance that doesn't always apply. Not all of us have the same "capitalistic barometer" that others have - if I want to play a game, and it turns out that the only place is going to have it is EGS, then I'll get it on EGS. Will I miss having the functionality of something like Steam? Sure. But my main goal was to play the game. I don't need hundreds of people telling me how much I suck just because I don't have the same level of need for certain things.
That said, if someone makes a thread where someone is pissed off that something is going to EGS, that's ok. Be angry about it - you have different priorities than I do, and that's ok. I SHOULD NOT go into your thread and say "whatever, man, I'm gonna get it anyway" - what's the point of that statement? It's simply dismissing their entire argument and shoving my middle finger into their face. On the other hand, if someone makes the OT for the game, which is a thread for people to discuss their progress and expectations for the game, it doesn't need to be shat up by people being angry that the game is not on their platform of their preference.
Apart from EGS, I also agree with the OP regarding things like the Ghost of Tsushima thread. It's one thing to pile on someone because they unintentionally made a joke (and are ultimately ok with being the butt of the joke - like B-Dubs), it's another to jump onto someone who had an honest misunderstanding and the like. Looking at that thread, there are plenty of people who gave perfectly fine answers to the OP's question.
Here's something that moderators take into account when looking at reports, and I think it's something that members can and should think about as well.
- What's the context of the post?
- Is the user genuinely confused/misunderstood, or does it appear to be malicious in nature?
- Are people reacting in a conversational way to the post, or is it simply people deriding it? Is the user of the reported post interacting with people past the initial post?
Sometimes people post things without knowing the full context, or they just are a little clueless when it comes to things. It happens. They don't need to be ridiculed for it.
Anger/Boycott Threads
These are two types of threads:
- Something comes up due to a developer or someone in the leadership of a game's development does something horrible and ends up being (rightfully) called out for it. Ion Fury is the most recent one, but we've also had threads on CDPR, Dragon Quest, and others.
- Something comes up that's a design decision on an upcoming/current game, and people don't like it. Like the OP mentioned, the lack of a National Dex in Pokemon Sword/Shield is an example of this.
First things first - these threads are fine. Please, go ahead and make them. People should have the full knowledge of who/what they are supporting or what exactly is in a game before making purchasing decisions.
Similarly to what I said about EGS, everyone also has their own "moral barometer" - i.e., what they are willing to forego or accept in making a decision. Some of that also includes a form of moral selectivity - e.g., "I am fine with boycotting this thing because I don't use it as much, but I won't boycott this other thing because it's one of my favorite things ever."
I'll single out Dragon Quest here, since it's a series near and dear to my heart. Koichi Sugiyama, the composer for the games, is homophobic and is war-crime denier. Over the past year, especially leading up to the release of DQ XI, we had several threads on this topic, bringing it to light for many of us who didn't know about it. That's good stuff to know, I agree.
I still bought DQ XI. I loved the game just as I've loved other DQ games. Ion Fury looked interesting, because I loved the Doom/Duke games as a kid, but I'm fine with never picking it up now.
We all do this. Damn near everything we buy has some sort of problematic thing happening in the chain of its inception to getting to us, and we all make decisions based on our perceived expectations of what we'll get out of it. I got 100 hours of joy playing a game I loved. Others may not find that to be an acceptable trade-off, and again, that's fine. If you're angry about something like Sugiyama's involvement in DQ, then sound off, discuss, boycott. There should absolutely be a thread on that. Change can only happen if the offending parties are made aware.
As for instances like the National Dex thing, again, go ahead, be angry. Voice your displeasure in a thread or on Twitter.
Now, the corollary to this is - if someone makes a thread on Sugiyama or something similar, going into that thread to say "whatever man, I'm still gonna buy it" is just being an asshole. Go talk about it in the preview thread or something. On the other hand, going into, say, the preview thread and attempting to shame people who are planning on buying the game isn't cool either. As I said, we all make decisions based on our own perception and adherence to our morality. Turning every thread on the game into a shit-flinging fest over who is the most moral [consumer in a capitalistic endeavor] person doesn't help matters. Bringing the information to light is definitely going to turn some heads and make some people rethink their purchase, but it most likely will not affect everyone. And that's ok, every little bit helps.
I want everyone here to feel like they can voice their displeasure and excitement over the one thing here that bonds us all together - our love of gaming. We're all on the same side here. We all, myself included, need to have a little introspection - thinking about how we post here and how we want to shape this community. A majority of our reports are all things like personal attacks and drive-by posts. Cutting those down would be amazing progress. We do our best to handle the trolls, bigots, gaslighters, etc., but we do need you all to help set the tone of the forum.
ResetEra is what we make of it. We have a thriving community of thousands of users who all love to play and discuss games. Already I think we are leagues better than other forums, but we can be better. We can always be better.
To repeat what we said at the very beginning of this forum, from a couple of wise men:
BE EXCELLENT TO EACH OTHER.
tldr: ^
There hasn't been great game discussion on this forum since it started. Feels like most topics are just trying to shit on everything.
Great post overall. Better articulated than I ever could.
One thing that stands out to me is the bolded part. That's my expectation as well.
But in reality I see so many "gamers are trash" posts here that I wonder if I'm in a gaming forum at all.
Great post. I especially agree that problems with a game/developer should be discussed. So people should make separate threads about them.
This helps to prevent every thread turning into the same dogpiling derailment.
Hecht what about users who always argue in bad faith trying to get people banned, aka baiters?
That's not really up to users to deal with, do you think it's even a problem?
I don't disagree. Only when it becomes a derailment. Which happens way too often.I think it should still be involved to an extent. I'd even recommend OT creators to include links to those threads with possibly summaries for people who may have missed it. Their grievances should still be heard.
To clarify, I'm not making policy here. These are just my personal thoughts. This is something we'll keep working on.I don't disagree. Only when it becomes a derailment. Which happens way too often.
How should that be reported?
I know, lol. Just looking for a starting point. I guess I'll just start to use the report function more, and see if things getter betterTo clarify, I'm not making policy here. These are just my personal thoughts. This is something we'll keep working on.
Sometimes we feel like it doesn't necessarily seem like bait, and that it could be resolved through discussion. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. Just because someone gets heated doesn't mean it obviously against the TOS - sometimes people just need to step away and come back. It's not an exact science with determining intent over the internet.Hecht I was talking about how this contributes to the toxic environment that no one wants to take part in, yet I see it happening all the time, and not very moderated even though it's obnoxious and most users dislike it.
As for reporting, I sent one your way this morning, I couldn't have asked for a better example, if that post doesn't turn discussion toxic, what does?
[LONG POST WARNING]
ResetEra is what we make of it. We have a thriving community of thousands of users who all love to play and discuss games. Already I think we are leagues better than other forums, but we can be better. We can always be better.
To repeat what we said at the very beginning of this forum, from a couple of wise men:
BE EXCELLENT TO EACH OTHER.
I think a big problem here and elsewhere is that most people just don't know how to debate. There's a formula to argumentation, and if you resort to ad hominem, you're out. Problem is, like this thread mentions time and time again, the dogpiling leads to angry mobs hopping on people.Great post! Maybe it'd be interesting to have something like a codex or etiquette that is introduced to new users and/or at the top of the webforum. In German it's actually called 'netiquette' which adds a nice and sympathetic element to it. Discussion following certain rules has always been very positive, I learned it when doing classical British debate at university in oral communication courses. Even individual OT or LTTP threads could have a short statement above indicating what OT and LTTP should be about. All opinions within certain boundaries should be valued, but derailing attempts, console warring and hate speech still be sanctioned. I'm very happy ResetERA allows political discussions, too. Other forums have banned them because they are too controversial. I think this is not the right way and you are doing better even if it sometimes produces the clash of opinions.
Just my two cents.
Console wars, for instance, have been a thing for decades. We all have our "favorite thing," and even if we outwardly say otherwise, we always find a way to feel incredulous when we discover that someone else didn't like the thing as much as we did. That's something that each of us needs to do better, myself included. We all prefer different systems, genres, series, individual games, and that's OK.
I see this happen a lot and have been on the receiving end of this and it's very frustrated. Someone always has to be right, when we are saying the same thing.Some really great, thoughtful posts in this thread.
For my part, I just wish people would take a few moments to try to understand what a member means with their post rather than taking their text and somehow extrapolating an exaggerated position based on it. I don't know how many arguments I've seen from people who are basically on the same side of something.
Thank you for this post, and I'd like to address this part.Apart from EGS, I also agree with the OP regarding things like the Ghost of Tsushima thread. It's one thing to pile on someone because they unintentionally made a joke (and are ultimately ok with being the butt of the joke - like @B-Dubs), it's another to jump onto someone who had an honest misunderstanding and the like. Looking at that thread, there are plenty of people who gave perfectly fine answers to the OP's question.
Here's something that moderators take into account when looking at reports, and I think it's something that members can and should think about as well.
- What's the context of the post?
- Is the user genuinely confused/misunderstood, or does it appear to be malicious in nature?
- Are people reacting in a conversational way to the post, or is it simply people deriding it? Is the user of the reported post interacting with people past the initial post?
Sometimes people post things without knowing the full context, or they just are a little clueless when it comes to things. It happens. They don't need to be ridiculed for it.
On a side note I'm also concerned when I see post of very distraught people on the etc. side. I get the impression that the general air of negativity and cynical/negative discussion that occurs here is coloring their worldview.
I think a big problem here and elsewhere is that most people just don't know how to debate. There's a formula to argumentation, and if you resort to ad hominem, you're out. Problem is, like this thread mentions time and time again, the dogpiling leads to angry mobs hopping on people.
Just look at that thread in EtcetEra Forum where a dude who didn't follow US politics asked what Antifa was, and an angry mob trashed the thread up with "THAT'S BAIT!" and drive-by shitposts even though the poster was a well-established ERA user and not a burner account. And then they tried gaslighting that he made the thread in bad faith and he's an alt-right troll.
Like, tell me why that's acceptable?
I feel like the moderation and admin team really needs to put their heads together to discourage the mob culture here, because what I just described is a perfect example of why polarized "you're with us or we're killing you" mob mentality will make people hesitate to participate. It's killing conversation here because you can just look through this thread and see how many people--myself included--just tell themselves it isn't worth getting shouted down by vocal cliques of wasps.
I think a big problem here and elsewhere is that most people just don't know how to debate. There's a formula to argumentation, and if you resort to ad hominem, you're out. Problem is, like this thread mentions time and time again, the dogpiling leads to angry mobs hopping on people.
Just look at that thread in EtcetEra Forum where a dude who didn't follow US politics asked what Antifa was, and an angry mob trashed the thread up with "THAT'S BAIT!" and drive-by shitposts even though the poster was a well-established ERA user and not a burner account. And then they tried gaslighting that he made the thread in bad faith and he's an alt-right troll.
Like, tell me why that's acceptable?
I feel like the moderation and admin team really needs to put their heads together to discourage the mob culture here, because what I just described is a perfect example of why polarized "you're with us or we're killing you" mob mentality will make people hesitate to participate. It's killing conversation here because you can just look through this thread and see how many people--myself included--just tell themselves it isn't worth getting shouted down by vocal cliques of wasps.
That's why this forum sucks. Everyone here thinks you're part of this particular group that's their enemy. One day they call you a nazi, next day they call you a libtard.It would help if folks could realize that not every opinion has an agenda attached to it. Someone enjoyed Kingdom Come? Guess what, they probably aren't a nazi. Someone thought Captain Marvel wasn't a very good movie, good chance that person isn't some MRA redpill asshat.
Not everything has an ulterior motive, sometimes an opinion is just an opinion. And by sometimes I mean like 99% of the time.
To be honest, this kind of attitude is a bit of the problem too. There was plenty of good faith critism against films like Captain Marvel here that no one made such accusations against, and Kingdom Come is certainly one of the more controversial games in our community, but we also have a huge and dedicated fan base for it, and an OT that's surpassed 100 pages, far larger than most other communities.It would help if folks could realize that not every opinion has an agenda attached to it. Someone enjoyed Kingdom Come? Guess what, they probably aren't a nazi. Someone thought Captain Marvel wasn't a very good movie, good chance that person isn't some MRA redpill asshat.
Not everything has an ulterior motive, sometimes an opinion is just an opinion. And by sometimes I mean like 99% of the time.
This right here has been my same thought for a few years now.
This is kinda where I am. I always try to inject some sarcastic humor into as many of my posts as possible and just try to create fun threads, but I often feel like much of the playful nature of many gaming forums of years past, the stuff that attracted me to them in the first place as a teen, is all but absent here.I agree that discussion level in this place is getting lower all the time. NeoGAF was bad at the end but everything about ResetEra feels more serious.
And yeah, there's that too: there aren't as many joke threads or fun threads overall, they get closed all the time a few posts in for trolling or whatever, yet negative threads are allowed to grow with no issue. That fosters a mostly negative environment. Have you noticed how over a year into the forum's life there aren't as many in-jokes or memorable memes? This place at times feels like it's so afraid of getting taken over by trolls that people aren't allowed to lighten up.
But by all means, a monthly thread about how much Uncharted 4 fucking sucks? Go right ahead.
I'm guilty of this one. I think a lot of it comes from the voracious fanboys who dislike thing and carry a sense of entitlement. Although that could be said about almost any fandom - every fan thinks that they are the One True Fan and damn the rest. That's kinda where I look at when I said something like "ugh, gamers."
I've been outright attacked for making silly posts, or dogpiled for being 'wrong' about something when I meant it as a joke. Once a poster gave me multiple paragraphs about how this place is for serious discussion only and joking is disengenuous.This is kinda where I am. I always try to inject some sarcastic humor into as many of my posts as possible and just try to create fun threads, but I often feel like much of the playful nature of many gaming forums of years past, the stuff that attracted me to them in the first place as a teen, is all but absent here.
Just yesterday, I think I finally experienced what it was like to be dogpiled here. Someone posted during the Gamescom thread that Sony was acquiring Insomniac games and I just followed up with "Sunset Overdrive PC never" since I 100% HONESTLY did not know that Sunset Overdrive got a PC port, and in the span of SECONDS, I got at least 10+ notifications of people correcting me, some of which coming across as snarky. What some people here do not realize is that some of us do not follow every little last piece of gaming news, and even some of us that try to may overlook something or honestly forget, case and point here. This is actually something that permeates at every angle of nerd culture, where if you are wrong about any little thing, be prepared for a horde of fucking geeks to roll up and be like "WELL AKCHUALLY" and all that. As such, many newcomers end up becoming intimidated by the barrier to entry and just don't post at all. I feel that many other enthusiast cultures don't really have this issue. Basically, if you see someone get something factually wrong, don't be abrasive, especially if you see a bunch of other people replying to the comment and saying literally the exact same thing.I've been outright attacked for making silly posts, or dogpiled for being 'wrong' about something when I meant it as a joke. Once a poster gave me multiple paragraphs about how this place is for serious discussion only and joking is disengenuous.
Now obviously there's a time and place for joke posts, and some things shouldn't be joked about at all. But if we can't have fun topics on a GAMING forum I just don't know where I'm going to post anymore.
I do feel confident we can pull things around here, and I don't want to come off as negative. There's some great thoughtful posts in this thread and plenty of people that want a great community. I think maybe harsher rules on which topic you're posting certain types of replies could definitely help. Maybe allowing some of the lighter "weekend Era" or joke type topics to stick around longer. I've been posting here since inception and GAF since around 06. I really feel like if we survived an entire website shift we can get our shit together here as well.
Have you seen the gaming side? Actually, have you seen this whole site? Politics permeates the vast majority of discussion on here
Omg, yes. This is what I was trying to convey yesterday. It's either with, or against. No gray.It would help if folks could realize that not every opinion has an agenda attached to it. Someone enjoyed Kingdom Come? Guess what, they probably aren't a nazi. Someone thought Captain Marvel wasn't a very good movie, good chance that person isn't some MRA redpill asshat.
Not everything has an ulterior motive, sometimes an opinion is just an opinion. And by sometimes I mean like 99% of the time.