A minecraft-esque mode would be brilliant to be honest. Keep all the creation tools, but generate a world you can sculpt to your hearts content.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
It feels like Dreams is struggling with community iteration and level design.
- Thread starter ItWasMeantToBe19
- Start date
Looking at LBP, restricting it to just 3D platformers means that creators will just find a way to do something else with it, and those would be the most interesting creations.
The point of Dreams is that it could be anything you could dream up.
Honestly this thread baffles me.
Dreams allows you to remix any creation and make it your own, whilst crediting the original creators.
And this whole 'make it in UNITY so you could sell it' crap is the worst take of the year.
Last edited:
I was already advocating putting Dreams on PC to increase the user base, so don't need to convince me on this point.
But your posts seem to imply that it will work better on PC which I really fail to see how. Is it about using mouse and keyboard? Because that does not sound like an improvement over a DS4 for this game, let alone a pair of moves.
It's also about the ease of sharing and the proximity with sites that can provide income for the creators. As I said, most of Patreon deliver content that can be shared on PC, be it games, mods, art, music... And nowadays Patreon is key to nurture big communities. It basically revived the Sims 4 community for instance, the emulation community, the VN fan games... You really need something like that.
I feel like being a programmer could even hamper your progression in Dreams sometimes. Some simple things you'd use all the time in a programming language like arrays and if/else functions are not available to you and you'd have to find a workaround. Which sometimes means you have to set things up in a whole different way from the start.
Play Dreams, Give Unity a shot. And then share your judgement. They are vastly different beasts.
They are also not mutually exclusive. Dreams will be a stepping stone for people new to creating, and for experienced developers it can be used as a quick prototyping tool.
There's fun in just creating stuff. I made a crapton of stuff in LBP with my brother that we never published online but it was some of the most fun we've had, more than actually playing the campaign or community levels.
Would it be great if you could publish your Dreams creations elsewhere? Yes. Do I have to make money to enjoy something? Nah.
The difference between Media Molecule's approach and other attempts like Project Spark is that they make the creation process really fun and satisfying in itself. The idea that someone would put in time creating something for nothing other than personal gratification being unbelievable feels cynical to the core to me.
To address the thread itself though, it does seem there's way better art content right now than playable experiences. I feel like the campaign MM is building will go a long way towards helping players build a mental image of what a good level is like and how to construct them (given that the campaign is made with the same tools).
Would it be great if you could publish your Dreams creations elsewhere? Yes. Do I have to make money to enjoy something? Nah.
The difference between Media Molecule's approach and other attempts like Project Spark is that they make the creation process really fun and satisfying in itself. The idea that someone would put in time creating something for nothing other than personal gratification being unbelievable feels cynical to the core to me.
To address the thread itself though, it does seem there's way better art content right now than playable experiences. I feel like the campaign MM is building will go a long way towards helping players build a mental image of what a good level is like and how to construct them (given that the campaign is made with the same tools).
Good games don't have to be complicated though and Dreams actually puts you on the path of actually designing your game instead of setting up the basics.
So you're saying that the PC community would better embrace this kind of games, perhaps because of its modding culture and such? That very well could be.
I mean you buy a console because it's plug and play and you don't want to tweak or fiddle with settings and such. I hope at least the players come en masse when they game releases because having an outreach of max 100k players ain't gonna cut it.
As someone who put a lot of time into creation on LBP (iirc I had a full campaign almost finished on lbp3) this game is a REALLY hard sell. Lbp managed to ride a fine line for creativity where it's just simplified enough to knock stuff out quick but also has the depth to experiment. Dreams goes quite a lot deeper, to the extent that as someone else already pointed out, it makes much more sense for me to do whatever that idea is on Unity instead as I could at least try sell it after and have further developed skills that are useful outside of a game.
This happened to Little Big Planet for PS Vita. Great game, but almost nobody wanted to invest time in it.
Maybe streamers could help the game. I think many people would appreciate it if their favorite streamer is playing their creation live on Twitch.
I think all of the "Dreams should've focused only on platforming" are missing the point. The fun part of Dreams is that you can pretty much create anything and share it with others, not that it's a glorified Little Big Planet. The game has been out for 2 months and there's already some amazing creations, by the time the game comes out the community will be much more mature in terms of how they create stuff.
Can't say I see the "they should be allowed to sell stuff to be motivated" posts either. The thing about creating games in Dreams is that it's fun. If you don't feel motivated to create anything... then just play whatever the community has made.
Can't say I see the "they should be allowed to sell stuff to be motivated" posts either. The thing about creating games in Dreams is that it's fun. If you don't feel motivated to create anything... then just play whatever the community has made.
You have a couple of premade characters available, and you can search for characters that the community has made.
Eh... I really don't agree.
Dreams is a complex tool but it's nowhere near as complicated as learning all the things you'd have to do to build a game in Unity. Getting a decent result between animation, art, audio and logic in Dreams is far more achievable than it is on Unity. The other point is that, while you can't sell things in Dreams, being able to publish to an engaged audience of people is a major positive. It's all very well to think that you could 'at least try to sell it' after building something in Unity, but there is a gigantic gap between making a game and being in a position to publish it and an even bigger one between publishing it and making even a remotely meaningful amount of money.
If your intention is to get into the games industry, then yes, I would suggest Unity over Dreams (though I'm not sure I'd actually suggest Unity over other options...) If you want to make a game? I'd suggest Dreams over Unity.
(I'm a professional game developer with some unity experience, and I love Dreams)
Completely agree with this, there's right now much better art than video games. I think part of it is of course that it's harder to make games. Another aspect is an artist has a much larger audience. Make some beautiful landscape and publish a photo or time lapse on Twitter and get immediate feedback. With games you are limited to the 100k players that have the game.
Another thing is that their sculpting tools are simply amazing. I'm not am expert but they look state of the art. Had so much fun using them. In comparison, my impression was that the animation tools are the weakest. Logic tools seem fine, but debugging can be a bit tedious and from what I understand they took away some features from the beta that would help with debugging. All in all, it is such a fantastic tool. Hopefully, Mm is making a stellar game with it and significantly more people bite into it.
The community aspect is very important because the more assets, levels, contraptions, logic elements etc. are out there the easier it'll get to make good games.
And good games will come with Dreams. Proof: Mm is making a game with it.
It's a valid point OP, and I hope by launch MM have made it easier to remix.
But give them time goddamn. The purpose of the early access was to get creators messing around with the tools, providing feedback so MM could optimise those tools for a larger audience. Getting a variety of user created content by launch is just a byproduct of that.
If in 12 months this particular aspect hasn't been improved then I think it should be brought up again.
But give them time goddamn. The purpose of the early access was to get creators messing around with the tools, providing feedback so MM could optimise those tools for a larger audience. Getting a variety of user created content by launch is just a byproduct of that.
If in 12 months this particular aspect hasn't been improved then I think it should be brought up again.
Why always trying to bring the money excuses as a motivator to create good stuffs in Dreams?
You can spend a lot of effort and trying to make a good game so you can feel a sense of accomplishement from others, share designs and iterate on good stuffs instead.
It's just that most of the time, if you want to iterate on already made levels from others, those are not remixable. For example, I would like to take that PT demo and use the level design to make something else completely, but the creation is not remixable... it's up to the users to let their level be remixable so we can improve upon them and make good level design.
You can spend a lot of effort and trying to make a good game so you can feel a sense of accomplishement from others, share designs and iterate on good stuffs instead.
It's just that most of the time, if you want to iterate on already made levels from others, those are not remixable. For example, I would like to take that PT demo and use the level design to make something else completely, but the creation is not remixable... it's up to the users to let their level be remixable so we can improve upon them and make good level design.
Time is what people need to make more complex things - you think after a month or two you're going to have some full game at a AAA level or something? Dreams is an easy to use tool for all kinds of creations - not some kind of game dev black magic for goodness sake.
People do not need to be told what they should or shouldn't be doing in dreams - people are free to do what they want from sculpting to making full games. Maybe if you leave it more than a few months you'll see something that in your opinion is worth your time........
I mean, Dreams is an amazing tool, but it won't make anyone a good level designer automatically, certain things comes with experience.
It's a game maker tool, not an automatic good game generator, and fortunately i might add.
It's a game maker tool, not an automatic good game generator, and fortunately i might add.
Play my game Little Jumps it has ok level design!
Oh yeah for sure you'd still have quicker results in Dreams. It's definitely still a world of difference between it and actually making a game. And I cant deny how much work there is to learn each individual aspect of making a game from scratch (humanoid animation is a bane on my life) in comparison to the tools provided in Dreams.
But I guess to me theres a natural progression from these games, which is perhaps their greatest aspect. For me I started on lbp, then went onto modding for KSP via Blender/Unity, then sculpting etc as a hobby for pure fun and eventually converting/modifying models for VRchat, which got me to try Maya and now I kind of just experiment with both that and Unity.
So in a sense it was MM games that led me down this path anyway (I actually tried UE3 and CryEngine during the lbp days but I was out of my depth at the time) as they were a window into a field that interested me but was beyond my understanding. Eventually it gave me the confidence to take a step through the door instead, but I've never felt the need to look back through the window as much.
Dreams is amazing, but the freedom it provides does make me feel I should be looking at industry tools instead. Perhaps more so as I don't have the skills to be a part of the industry so I see each project as a step closer. Whereas in contrast if I was already well versed enough to land a job with it I might feel less like I'm burning time I could be investing into industry tools instead.
Level designing is super really hard, even a few professional studio can make astonishing ones.
So it's no surprise user made levels in those sort of games mostly end up being trash or stolen from popular ones. Basically you need to find a follow good content creators.
So it's no surprise user made levels in those sort of games mostly end up being trash or stolen from popular ones. Basically you need to find a follow good content creators.
And that comes in time as the tools get tweaked, and as some of the developers put more assets out for you to use in creation.
I'm not a fan of MM's designs, lbp was one of the worst mechanically playing platformers I've ever tried.
Lets be honest, Dreams probably needs 2-3 years of people working on content before we start to see real, meaningful stuff come from it. I understand OP's concerns, but that's probably why the game is in super early access. A full retail release probably shouldn't come out until fall 2020, and even that might be early.
Lets be honest, Dreams probably needs 2-3 years of people working on content before we start to see real, meaningful stuff come from it. I understand OP's concerns, but that's probably why the game is in super early access. A full retail release probably shouldn't come out until fall 2020, and even that might be early.
But according to this thread I should be upset that I'm not getting paid for it.
Using my second ever ResetEra post to say: Lots of real dumb takes in this thread from people that are clearly not part of and experiencing the Early Access.
This is a pretty depressing thread. I've been interested in making my own game for a long time now but I'm bad at coding and it bores me to hell so I have no interest in even trying to learn it. I've not played dreams yet but the idea of the tools being powerful enough to make any kind of game is exciting. Hearing people want that limited just because the games made won't technically be "good" is just sad.
I'm confident the people who care to create will learn and make some really high quality stuff that the people who care to play will be able to find and enjoy.
I'm confident the people who care to create will learn and make some really high quality stuff that the people who care to play will be able to find and enjoy.
I appreciate the scope of the game but I still feel its a mistake not having a central character and story. LBP appealed to many people and children because of it
Dreams just look dark and dreary in comparison.
I like the levels Ive seen but they always feel basic to me. Outside the wow factor of "how did u do this" I dont see reasons to play through these games as if its a serious, polished creation.
I also think they should be opening up creating on PC. Why cant this be a thing?
And I 100% think there should be a built in way to donate to content creators. This generation pays ppl to watch others play video games and do Irl streams
Dreams just look dark and dreary in comparison.
I like the levels Ive seen but they always feel basic to me. Outside the wow factor of "how did u do this" I dont see reasons to play through these games as if its a serious, polished creation.
I also think they should be opening up creating on PC. Why cant this be a thing?
And I 100% think there should be a built in way to donate to content creators. This generation pays ppl to watch others play video games and do Irl streams
Dreams will have a central campaign featuring three major characters, plus characters like Connie.
I love Dreams to death and I'm trying to piece a game together but right now I feel limited (especially by the 1 GB local save). For what it's worth OP, right now it will feel like a bunch of demos and basic prototypes and that's ok. Developing bigger projects in Dreams will take time. I'm currently doing all assets by myself and it'll take me a year before I've created enough for 5-6 levels. Then I have to think about characer models, animation, gameplay. It's rough and thus we can't expect anything cool unless dedicated groups work together.
I'm also convinced this game will get a PS5 release without annoying current limits like save data storage and amount of allowed assets in a scene. That's when I'll start creating more stuff again.
Right now I have to make tons of compromises, very creative use of modular assets which I need to reuse over and over again and even then it won't be enough from what I can see. Right now a simple wood shack need to be a background house, a wooden floor, a wood roof or a wooden fence / wall. I practically have to think about every fence or lamp post and how to make it multi purpose which can become quite annoying at the moment. Otherwise I won't be able to make a ~6 hour experience. The potential of this game is huge though and it's not even properly out yet, so I'm optimistic.
I'm also convinced this game will get a PS5 release without annoying current limits like save data storage and amount of allowed assets in a scene. That's when I'll start creating more stuff again.
Right now I have to make tons of compromises, very creative use of modular assets which I need to reuse over and over again and even then it won't be enough from what I can see. Right now a simple wood shack need to be a background house, a wooden floor, a wood roof or a wooden fence / wall. I practically have to think about every fence or lamp post and how to make it multi purpose which can become quite annoying at the moment. Otherwise I won't be able to make a ~6 hour experience. The potential of this game is huge though and it's not even properly out yet, so I'm optimistic.
OP
OP
I'm sure the game will leave early access when the PS5 launches and that the game will be much better on PS5, yeah. The PS4 is a little too weak to run a lot of levels well without creators having to try to reduce detail and stuff and that's... kind of lame to do.
I understand ppls complaints but don't agree with them. Mind you this is MM here which spawned tons of games from other developers feeding off of the success and template of Lbp ala Spark, Mario Maker etc and thy know what they are doing. There is no right or wrong way to get into Dreams. The point is to give you a tutorial and drop you in and see what you can create. Naturally some will be better than others but the point is for you to invest your time and see what you come out with. If you are not good at it do what I love to do and that's enjoy the hundreds eventually thousands of user created content.
This game will be successful if the marketing is on point. Reviews will be high meta as oar the course with Media Molecules great games.
This game will be successful if the marketing is on point. Reviews will be high meta as oar the course with Media Molecules great games.
I am not a creator, but I still check into the newest levels every week or two and stuff just keeps getting bigger, more complicated, and more polished. Very interested to see the future with these tools.
I have a feeling that visiting Spencer Mansion or Shadow Moses in VR is only going to happen in Dreams because big pubs dont seem to give a shit about VR tourism experiences
I have a feeling that visiting Spencer Mansion or Shadow Moses in VR is only going to happen in Dreams because big pubs dont seem to give a shit about VR tourism experiences
Yeah but mario maker is pretty straightforward
I think dreams benefits from pc
if you're a skilled dev you would have a job developing games. Obviously this is for amateurs.
I love Dreams and I've been working on a first person adventure game slowly but surely for a couple months now but I'll admit, when I load up dreamsurfing and like 25% of what I get is stuff that I've played before from the beta, it's not confidence inspiring
It's more an if thing at this point. We simply haven't seen what MM is doing for THEIR campaign at this point.
How much did Sony lose with PD dev'ing GTS for years? I think Sony needs to calm the tiddies on this one. Dreams will be fine.
I still say that they need better filtering tools for dreamsurfing. It's tough to find stuff that isn't most popular or simply marked as recommended by MM.
Mario Maker is a much simpler game, and as a result it's easier to build a level in Mario Maker than it is to create a game in dreams. If you want people to spend time making amazing things for free the process has to be simple and fun. Minecraft is another good example of this. People like building things in Minecraft because it's simple. It's basically legos.
Dreams requires a ton of effort. That's not to say there won't be amazing creations, but the barrier to entry is far higher than a game like Mario Maker. It's not crazy to say that the end result may not be worth all the effort. I hope I'm wrong because dreams is an amazing creative tool, but there comes a point where something is maybe too good. At what point would it be better to just work with actual game making tools? That's the biggest issue I see Dreams facing. It's so good that the limitations might be more annoying than they would be in a far more simplistic game.
The number of people with the talent, time and willpower to build and publish game that is able to gain any kind of meaningful audience, even for free, is extremely minimal. It's far easier to do that in Dreams than elsewhere. I have a job developing games, and I still make stuff in Dreams.
Dreams is for amateurs, but in the latin literal sense: Dreams is for people that love making audio, visual and interactive content.
It's far easier to make something not-bad in Mario Maker than it is in Dreams, but no easier to make something great in Mario Maker than in Dreams.
That lower barrier to entry is so important. Especially when it's a video game and not professional dev tools.
Early access is like 2 months old. Many people still need to grasp the mechanics let alone make a game. Also many people who have it dont want to make games and want to make assets, animations, etc. You guys are expecting a lot for something that has barely been out and is fairly complex. I am having fun when I get the time to play with it
Maybe, but the issue is exclusivity and Dreams isn't going anywhere outside of the Playstation/Sony family.
The feeling you get of things being in super infancy is because things are in super infancy. Towards the beginning, characters made from scratch for exceedingly rare. one of the first things I did in the game was start making a character from scratch and it was actually going pretty good. At least my keyframe animations. I didn't get much farther than that as it takes a long time.
A few months later, the frequency of that has increase dramatically. I was surfing on it the other day and I think I played three games each with a fully custom characters. that was probably among the 15 I played in that session. Towards the beginning, that number would be often more like zero with practically every game using the dummy as a base.
As far as the remix function goes, I like it. I've seen some really good projects with remixed stuff, although those may have been from active collaborators. Time will tell if the community embraces this. I've used it a couple times and it's a really easy way to make something. Like, you can have something going in 3 or 4 hours between shmearching for your assets and sticking them together. You just type tree and you pick from a million trees. It's sweet.
Your observation from the beginning of the early access here is valid but the actual severity of these things is negligible at this point.
A few months later, the frequency of that has increase dramatically. I was surfing on it the other day and I think I played three games each with a fully custom characters. that was probably among the 15 I played in that session. Towards the beginning, that number would be often more like zero with practically every game using the dummy as a base.
As far as the remix function goes, I like it. I've seen some really good projects with remixed stuff, although those may have been from active collaborators. Time will tell if the community embraces this. I've used it a couple times and it's a really easy way to make something. Like, you can have something going in 3 or 4 hours between shmearching for your assets and sticking them together. You just type tree and you pick from a million trees. It's sweet.
Your observation from the beginning of the early access here is valid but the actual severity of these things is negligible at this point.