Isn't it kind of hypocritical that people gloss over the whitewashing in Avatar the Last Airbender?

[Bor Gullet]

No, I'm not talking about the movie, I'm talking about the animated show.

It's funny, I never really realized this until I just started re watching the show again on Netflix, but while there are PoC actors on the show, more than half the cast is compromised of white people voicing Asians.

Don't get me wrong, I like the show as much as the next person, and all the actors do a great job. It's just strange to me that while people rightfully so criticized the casting of the live action film back in 2009-2010 (which is the first time I can recall in a Hollywood film), the animated series is guilty of the same thing.

And yes, even in animation having white actors play PoC's is still whitewashing. One of my favorite animated films of recent years was Kubo and the Two Strings, a great film which also received some controversy for having a bunch of white actors voicing Asians.

It makes me wonder if perhaps Avatar had been made today, if it would have featured a full cast of Asians and other PoC's.

 

[Finaj]

It makes me wonder if perhaps Avatar had been made today, if it would have featured a full cast of Asians and other PoC's.

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Given that Netflix is making a live-action remake of the series with the original creators, we'll find out soon enough.

 

[Toxi]

See also: The Prince of Egypt with Moses played by Val Kilmer and Ramses played by Ralph Fiennes.

 

[Meg Cherry]

It seems like an extremely minute problem for a show that by all other accounts excels as a standard for racial diversity in content & messaging.

Obviously it'd be done better if made today, but it doesn't necessarily means people need to always call out the original's casting before praising it for its' achievements.

 

[Jakenbakin]

Having just watched it I did find it kind of jarring. However applying the rules of correctly casting in animation I feel has only recently started to turn to where it needs to. I remember reading about the controversy of Alison Brie giving a Vietnamese woman in Bojack and their response was just kind of like "fuck... I hadn't even thought of it." I mean we still have the occasional lives action problem casting, animation is doing relatively well in improving these days... I think?

 

[QuinchoOsito]

Yeah I always thought it was weird that the movie got (rightfully) slammed for it but people don't often seem to bring it up for the show itself.

 

[Deleted member 52442]

See also: The Prince of Egypt with Moses played by Val Kilmer and Ramses played by Ralph Fiennes.

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i just looked that up the other day and was surprised

i rarely look up the cast members of an animated thing though, i imagine regular people do it even less. if it doesnt come up they arent gonna know to be upset

 

[BDS]

I was just discussing this with someone. There's not really an easy answer to this other than the standard "it was a different time." Even as recently as Korra (2012-2014) it was not particularly controversial to have actors of the wrong race voicing a character. There are still TV shows and video games today that feature characters from other races (or fantasy/alien beings "coded" to seem as though they're from another race) that are voiced by actors of the wrong race. It just wasn't, and to some extent still isn't, seen as a big deal relative to whitewashing of live-action characters.

The same goes for controversies over straight actors playing gay characters. Up until very recently this was not seen as a big deal. The representation in front of the camera was viewed as more important than the representation of the actor "behind" the camera.

 

[Inquisitive_Ghost]

Given that Netflix is making a live-action remake of the series with the original creators, we'll find out soon enough.

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WHAT

 

[Deleted member 64609]

Tbh honest I didn't even think about it with the cartoon, half because they're not "real" races and half because I never thought about who the voice actors were, although Phil Lamarr, Cree Summer, Khary Payton etc. would have been instantly recognizable.

I'm embarrassed to say i don't know many Asian/Asian American VA...

 

[Nocturne]

because by the standards of the time it was released in it still did a far better job of casting asian folk in asian roles than most cartoons (or let's face it, tv and film).

to this day it's still one of the best examples of a multi-faceted pan-asian setting and filled from front to back with characters that defied the stereotypes that usually define us in media

i think ideally ATLA should have been fully casted by members of the communities that it was drawing from, and written by people of asian/indigenous descent but you can't expect perfection from media and ATLA did more than enough to earn some slack.

i take more of an issue with korra where the show runners should have been more conscious of the problems of casting white actors for non-white roles for the time and era it was released in

 

[efr]

I see multiple asian voice actors for the secondary cast on imdb?
I see that the show was created by Nickelodeon almost 15 years ago.

What a weird thing to be upset about today. Considering everything else going on, and how inclusive the actual show is when watching it.

They're not real races anyways

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

Two separate harms and some people are more clued in to one than the other.

Whitewashing deprives PO from seeing themselves positively represented in media. Not an issue here.

Whitewashing deprives POC from having access to the same quantity and quality of jobs. Yes an issue here.

 

[Jakenbakin]

It's off topic but close enough that I should also say every 5-10 episodes when Scott Menville would show up to voice a random character I lost my shit at how tonally different he sounded to the appearance of every single character he played.

 

[Bor Gullet]

I see multiple asian voice actors for the secondary cast on imdb?
I see that the show was created by Nickelodeon almost 15 years ago.

What a weird thing to be upset about today. Considering everything else going on, and how inclusive the actual show is when watching it.

They're not real races anyways

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That's the exact same excuse people used for the live action film. You're only proving my point fam.

 

[Kasai]

It's off topic but close enough that I should also say every 5-10 episodes when Scott Menville would show up to voice a random character I lost my shit at how tonally different he sounded to the appearance of every single character he played.

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My brother and I are watching it, him for the first time ever. We have a game where we see who can find his Robin voice first.

On topic, it is absolutely an issue. But for the time, it was already pretty damn progressive. I do wish there was more care used when casting though.

 

[Narroo]

Not necessarily; unless you think the characters should have stereotypical Asian accents. If the character all "talked" with Asian accents, then this would definitely be an issue. The question is: Should the characters have had accents?

A person's voice -- the way they sound when they talk -- is mainly determined from their environment they grow up in, not their race. The show takes place in a fictional world where English does not exist; any show or book like this is implicitly translating the characters' speech to English. The question then, since the show is heavily inspired by Asian cultures, should the characters all talk with an accent or not? Given that the show wasn't really about Asian culture exoticism, it makes sense that they decided to forgo giving the characters accents. Or at least most of them; General Irou seems to have an accent going on.


Now, some of you might ask: "Why is the presence of accents important? Isn't nationality the issue?"

Well, first off: A bunch of white people trying and probably failing miserably to reproduce an accent would be a problem because it would be inaccurate and demeaning. Without accents: The main reason for having Asian voice actors if diction isn't an issue would be sensitivity. Having the cast as Asian would assist any show massively in their understanding and sensitivity to Asian culture, making possible offensive gaffs less likely.

But, ultimately, since (most of) the characters are meant to speak in plain, not-exotic, English, it's not a necessity, though it would still be preferred for safety's sake. Unless you believe "white people" shouldn't be able to write stories about people of other ethnicities.



If you don't believe me, consider the following: Japanese anime's are usually about Japanese teenagers. Yet, when they get localized overseas, we don't exclusively give the roles to Japanese-Americans or force the character to have a Japanese character. It's the same concept, except done for an American made show instead of an imported one.

 

[Ogodei]

Whitewashing in voice acting is more pernicious than in live action acting because most folks don't care about the VA's, particularly western VA's. The movement to make animated characters acted by people from the same background is pretty recent.

 

[HellofaMouse]

Given that Netflix is making a live-action remake of the series with the original creators, we'll find out soon enough.

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oh man, live action remakes of animation is even a worse trend than regular remakes.

 

[Septimus Prime]

I see multiple asian voice actors for the secondary cast on imdb?
I see that the show was created by Nickelodeon almost 15 years ago.

What a weird thing to be upset about today. Considering everything else going on, and how inclusive the actual show is when watching it.

They're not real races anyways

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Yeah, this response is BS. Mace Windu and Finn aren't real races either, but it still would raise eyebrows if their animated counterparts were voiced by white actors.

That said, Avatar was a product of its time. I think we can understand why it made it choices it did but still call out its issues so that we can do better in the future.

 

[nitewulf]

Hypocritical by all of us fans you mean? May be, but isn't constant complaints is what lead to more diversity currently? We should go back in time and complain about ATLA?

 

[Squarehard]

I usually have more of a problem if it's whitewashed in a stereotypical or racist way, such as the actors intentionally doing accents they know they can't pull off, or do them poorly for the effect.

For Avatar, this was very rarely ever the case with the voices.

 

[Gaming_Groove]

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[Gustaf]

this thread made me wondering about the dubs for other languages.

because im pretty sure, not an asian voice actor worked on the latin american spanish dub.

does this only affect the american dub??

 

[efr]

That's the exact same excuse people used for the live action film. You're only proving my point fam.

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A non white person directed the action film and had control over casting fam.

 

[MajesticSoup]

Cant say I agree with this idea that voice actors should be the same race as their characters. It sets a horrible precedent of minorities getting less work, cause lets face it, most characters are gonna be white. And it gives companies like CDprojekt a pass for having an all white american voice cast for Witcher, and their fans will defend that decision in the name of historical accuracy.
Have a diverse cast overall and it doesnt matter who gets cast as who.

 

[Glasgow Mega-Snake]

I mean, acting is also about portraying characters with different experiences from yours. Ideally white actors voicing POC characters shouldn't be a problem as long as (important) the portrayal is respectful and not a racist caricature and (also important) POC actors have an equal opportunity to voice white characters and voice casts are generally diverse

But of course I imagine that in reality POC actors voicing white characters is rare compared to white actors voicing POC characters

 

[KillLaCam]

I'll never think of voice actors being a different race counting as white washing.

 

[misho8723]

Cant say I agree with this idea that voice actors should be the same race as their characters. It sets a horrible precedent of minorities getting less work, cause lets face it, most characters are gonna be white. And it gives companies like CDprojekt a pass for having an all white american voice cast, and their fans will defend it in the name of historical accuracy.
Have a diverse cast overall and it doesnt matter who gets cast as who.

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Hmmmmm ... are you talking about some of their game(s) or am I missing something?

 

[Deleted member 19844]

A non white person directed the action film and had control over casting fam.

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What I've read is that Paramount dictated who had to be cast as Katara, which then had ripple effects on who was cast as Sokka.

 

[Therion]

I just watched this show recently and never thought about the identity of the voice actors at all except in one instance: when Iroh's voice suddenly changed. Looking into it, apparently the original Japanese-American actor had died and a white actor came in with an (imo poor) impersonation of the original. I'm not sure if there was anything actually wrong with this or what a better solution would have been, but I have to admit that this felt a bit icky to me as an Asian-American.

 

[Deleted member 19844]

I just watched this show recently and never thought about the identity of the voice actors at all except in one instance: when Iroh's voice suddenly changed. Looking into it, apparently the original Japanese-American actor had died and a white actor came in with an (imo poor) impersonation of the original. I'm not sure if there was anything actually wrong with this or what a better solution would have been, but I have to admit that this felt a bit icky to me as an Asian-American.

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My understanding is that that guy, for whatever reason, had studied and practiced Mako's voice for years lol

 

[Shahed]

This is like the whole thing in Uncharted with Laura Bailey who is white, doing the voice for Nadine who is black right?

Also doubling with the fact that it's hard being a voice actor if you aren't white. You don't get cast in white roles which are the majority, so there is usually limited options for characters to play. Now that there is a non white character and you have the opportunity to play a role, they end up casting a white person anyway.

Or am I misreading?

 

[Squarehard]

I just watched this show recently and never thought about the identity of the voice actors at all except in one instance: when Iroh's voice suddenly changed. Looking into it, apparently the original Japanese-American actor had died and a white actor came in with an (imo poor) impersonation of the original. I'm not sure if there was anything actually wrong with this or what a better solution would have been, but I have to admit that this felt a bit icky to me as an Asian-American.

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He also replaced him as Aku for the final Samurai Jack season.

 

[Malverde]

Shout out to the anime Seis Manos which did a great job with the Latinx voice cast.

 

[Mars People]

Frank Welker has voiced every animated animal from the last 40 years.
Now that's unfair!

 

[Bor Gullet]

I just watched this show recently and never thought about the identity of the voice actors at all except in one instance: when Iroh's voice suddenly changed. Looking into it, apparently the original Japanese-American actor had died and a white actor came in with an (imo poor) impersonation of the original. I'm not sure if there was anything actually wrong with this or what a better solution would have been, but I have to admit that this felt a bit icky to me as an Asian-American.

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This is understandable as they needed an impressionist to match the original voice, and Greg Baldwin is the go to guy.

 

[Squarehard]

Frank Welker has voiced every animated animal from the last 40 years.
Now that's unfair!

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That's not true.

Dee Bradley Baker voices animals pretty often, and for the sake of this thread, he actually voices Appa and Momo. ;D

 

[Faenix1]

With real life stuff you don't have to go out of your way to see an actor isn't whatever the character is.

I'm not going to google every voice actor that's in something, and I'm not about to start.

 

[Mars People]

That's not true.

Dee Bradley Baker voices animals pretty often, and for the sake of this thread, he actually voices Appa and Momo. ;D

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Lies!
Welker has workeed on every animated feature known to man or beast.

 

[Chairmanchuck (另一个我)]

In regards to that, isnt it less about "accents" and more about that PoCs should get more chances getting roles, because for every 10000 white characters, you have 20 PoCs that could be voiced by PoCs, because the arguments I read here are mostly about accents or "not seeing race" in an animation.

 

[Septy]

Frank Welker has voiced every animated animal from the last 40 years.
Now that's unfair!

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Dee Bradley Baker would like to have a word with you.

 

[Khanimus]

Standards of representation in voice acting, particularly for a show from the mid 2000's, are generally viewed differently.

 

[Ryuelli]

1. I have not seen Avatar the Last Airbender

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Change this.

 

[Illusion]

I just watched this show recently and never thought about the identity of the voice actors at all except in one instance: when Iroh's voice suddenly changed. Looking into it, apparently the original Japanese-American actor had died and a white actor came in with an (imo poor) impersonation of the original. I'm not sure if there was anything actually wrong with this or what a better solution would have been, but I have to admit that this felt a bit icky to me as an Asian-American.

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Greg Baldwin was the go-to guy for recording impersonations of Mako prior to his death. So it was just a logical step as there someone known for impersonating him to audition then ultimately take over Mako's roles in animated projects.

 

[efr]

Yeah, this response is BS. Mace Windu and Finn aren't real races either, but it still would raise eyebrows if their animated counterparts were voiced by white actors.

That said, Avatar was a product of its time. I think we can understand why it made it choices it did but still call out its issues so that we can do better in the future.

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I'm posting this just as information. Not looking for a fight. This all assumes Avatar takes place on Earth.

Mace Windu and Finn both are based on real life humans. Both are listed as black humans on Stat Wars wikipedia.

Aang is from the air nomads that are located around the globe. He can be any race. I like to think he's from the Japan area.

Katara and Sokka are from the South Pole. I'm sure you'll find a ton of native voice actors from there.

Fire Nation is from the Western Hemisphere. You can look up the map yourself. Its a pretty obvious analogy.

If you have gripes with the Earth Kingdom, I get it, but also why stereotype them to be from the Asian countries? Africa, Australia and EurAsia are part of it. The canyon episode and the people involved early on in the show reminds me of the Arabic countries of Earth.

My avatar(no pun intended) is an asian character from Mars, voiced by a white dude. Asians dont exist on Mars, no people do lol

I dont think anyone else could have done Spike better in English than Blum.

I'm all for inclusion and having minority actors voice minority actors. I'm also fine with a minority actor voicing non minority characters. All I care about is the delivery.

The entertainment industry does need to include more minorities in more roles.

 

[skeezx]

kind of moot as like 99% of anime characters on surface pass as "white"

is shinji ikari ostensibly an asian male. goku? ranma? ect

 

[Dice]

Argh, I really think the main three were perfectly cast, but yeah I generally agree and I think casting tries to go with this approach a bit more often now.

 

[Wrestleman]

Greg Baldwin was the go-to guy for recording impersonations of Mako prior to his death. So it was just a logical step as there someone known for impersonating him to audition then ultimately take over Mako's roles in animated projects.

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I might be misremembering, but I do seem to remember it also being a case where Mako had personally chosen Baldwin as his understudy and that's the other core reason for Baldwin taking on specifically his roles. Again, could be misremembering or mixing something up.

 

[Doc Kelso]

I'm posting this just as information. Not looking for a fight. This all assumes Avatar takes place on Earth.

Mace Windu and Finn both are based on real life humans. Both are listed as black humans on Stat Wars wikipedia.

Aang is from the air nomads that are located around the globe. He can be any race. I like to think he's from the Japan area.

Katara and Sokka are from the South Pole. I'm sure you'll find a ton of native voice actors from there.

Fire Nation is from the Western Hemisphere. You can look up the map yourself. Its a pretty obvious analogy.

If you have gripes with the Earth Kingdom, I get it, but also why stereotype them to be from the Asian countries? Africa, Australia and EurAsia are part of it. The canyon episode and the people involved early on in the show reminds me of the Arabic countries of Earth.

My avatar(no pun intended) is an asian character from Mars, voiced by a white dude. Asians dont exist on Mars, no people do lol

I dont think anyone else could have done Spike better in English than Blum.

I'm all for inclusion and having minority actors voice minority actors. I'm also fine with a minority actor voicing non minority characters. All I care about is the delivery.

The entertainment industry does need to include more minorities in more roles.

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Each Bending Style--and consequent Nation/Tribe--is fairly explicit in it's influences. All but the Water Tribes are heavily Asian inspired.

Air Nomads are inspired by Tibetan monks. The Earth Nation is Chinese. The Water Tribes are Arctic cultures, such as the Inuit. The Fire Nation is a mix of South/Southeast Asia. Hell, the written word in Avatar is Traditional Chinese.