Isn’t America just as bad as China when it comes to mass surveillance?

maxglute · Jan 3, 2019

America and China have been neighbours at the shit end of the global peace index for years. China having more severe surveillance than the US doesn't negate the fact that they're both closer to North Korea in overall influence to world peace than other developed nations. As a Canadian, pragmatically I would rather have China spy on me than Five Eye allies with extradition treatises.

As for sesame travel restrictions, they are not equivalent to travel ban and makes economic and punitive sense when flight and fast train prices are luxury items relative to Chinese income. Affected individuals can still use slow trains, buses and other cheaper modes of transportation - aka they are limited to common travel modes used by majority of working people. These travel restrictions is about has inhumane as suggesting an indebted person shouldn't charter private flights in lieu of making their victims whole. Also flight and fast trains in China have severe supply issues, the restriction is sensible optimization of limited resources.

Deleted member 36543 · Jan 3, 2019

Cas said:
We're going for full on whataboutism competition now, eh.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_China
Slavery in China has taken various forms throughout history. Slavery was reportedly abolished as a legally recognized institution, including in a 1909 law[1][2] fully enacted in 1910,[3] although the practice continued until at least 1949

Someone pointing out whataboutism when the topic of human injustice is someone who is not willing to learn from it. That's you. So should the Nazis be able to use your whataboutism excuse? Should the Nazis be able to say okay we gassed and killed jews but the British empire killed more people.

And then you send a link of China enslaving its own people. Does that justify America enslaving Africans for 300 years and still shooting and killing African American children?

Deleted member 36543 · Jan 3, 2019

Cas said:
The US wasn't using prisoners as human organ farms though. So not so similar, no. And do you think Chinese prisons or their justice system would be somehow better than the US though? China apologists are so bizarre.

I never once said China is better than the US. I'm saying the US (pot) shouldn't be calling a kettle ( China) black.

Typhon · Jan 3, 2019

Monkey_D said:
I never once said China is better than the US. I'm saying the US should be calling a pot a kettle.

Are you saying Americans aren't allowed to critizise China because our country isn't perfect?

Deleted member 19003 · Jan 3, 2019

Monkey_D said:
Someone pointing out whataboutism when the topic of human injustice is someone who is not willing to learn from it. That's you. So should the Nazis should be able to use your whataboutism excuse? Should the Nazis be able to say okay we gassed and killed jews but the British empire killed more people.

And then you send a link of China enslaving its own people. Does that justify America enslaving Africans for 300 years and still shitting and killing African American children?

Dude, you just used the US prison system as a justification and whataboutism for Chinese "re-education" camps. And here's a big clue for you, those reducations camps aren't actually EDUCATING, they're a front for ethnic cleansing the people in them. Jesus. I'm not the one that started making crappy comparisons as an excuse for shitty behaviors of a government in here.

Monkey_D said:
There is something similar to re-education camps in America. It's called prison. Though the use is to destroy family/ generational structures then to educate.

Deleted member 36543 · Jan 3, 2019

Cas said:
Dude, you just used the US prison system as a justification and whataboutism for Chinese "re-education" camps. And here's a big clue for you, those reducations camps aren't actually EDUCATING, they're a front for ethnic cleansing the people in them. Jesus.

Did you not do the same with your China slavery link you send?

maxglute · Jan 3, 2019

Cas said:
Dude, you just used the US prison system as a justification and whataboutism for Chinese "re-education" camps. And here's a big clue for you, those reducations camps aren't actually EDUCATING, they're a front for ethnic cleansing the people in them. Jesus.

China is cleansing religion because they want the Uighur to integrate, US just wants to cleanse black people from society. China has worse methods, US has worse intentions.

Deleted member 19003 · Jan 3, 2019

Monkey_D said:
Did you not do the same with your China slavery link you send?

Yeah, to copy you doing it first, lol.

Frozenprince · Jan 3, 2019

We have the data apparatus and collecting necessary to literally just flip a switch and be as bad, absolutely we do.

But as of right now? No. China literally puts dissenters into gulags for writing bad things about the government on twitter.

Deleted member 36543 · Jan 3, 2019

Typhon said:
Are you saying Americans aren't allowed to critizise China because our country isn't perfect?

Yes. Americans needs to shut the hell up and fix/focus our attention on our own fucking country. Blaming other country for the same shyt that we do so we can feel like the good guys is not going to fix the rotten core of this country.

Deleted member 19003 · Jan 3, 2019

maxglute said:
China is cleansing religion because they want the Uighur to integrate, US just wants to cleanse black people from society. China has worse methods, US has worse intentions.

This is such a wtf response. Yeah, I'm sure China has only the BEST of intentions for those Uighur's that they're also using for organ harvesting... GTFO.

BigWinnie1 · Jan 3, 2019

Monkey_D said:
I never once said China is better than the US. I'm saying the US shouldn't be calling a pot a kettle.

I don't know why we have to. We repented and are a super cultural melting pot. We have way more to go in the integration of various cultures and cutting to the heart of discrimination in the United states. With China they just wholesale just trample on their ethnic minorities culture and try and restrict to monumental degree's. Re-education camps, stamping out of discention about discrimination in Tibet. The rape and kidnapping of the Muslim minority, I mean for fucks sake we had escapee's talking about forced marriages and

xxracerxx · Jan 3, 2019

maxglute said:
China is cleansing religion because they want the Uighur to integrate, US just wants to cleanse black people from society. China has worse methods, US has worse intentions.

What the ever living shit?

Deleted member 32561 · Jan 3, 2019

With surveillance specifically? Worse.
With action as a result of the knowledge gained from surveillance used against citizens? No way. China's worse with that.
But tbh with a few more terms of Republicans in power (a frightening but possible thing) I could very easily see the US going that way.... In the name of keeping the 'illegals', 'degenerates' and/or 'antifa' in line, while actually targeting any outspoken political dissidents.

BigWinnie1 · Jan 3, 2019

maxglute said:
China is cleansing religion because they want the Uighur to integrate, US just wants to cleanse black people from society. China has worse methods, US has worse intentions.

I'm gonna be honest here. United States and Blacks have a fucked up relationship but Us Blacks damn near run pop culture and our culture is what sets most of the trends in this country. the Ulghur don't even have the chance to express themselves like we do and voice complaints to change the system. and the system has been changing since even when I was born (1990)

BigWinnie1 · Jan 4, 2019

Mewshuji said:
With surveillance specifically? Worse.
With action as a result of the knowledge gained from surveillance used against citizens? No way. China's worse with that.
But tbh with a few more terms of Republicans in power (a frightening but possible thing) I could very easily see the US going that way.... In the name of keeping the 'illegals', 'degenerates' and/or 'antifa' in line, while actually targeting any outspoken political dissidents.

That would be hard even with a conservative supreme court because our core constitution and multiple failsafes in the the framework of the government. I mean with the majority of state governments coming to agreement we can even amend our constitution with minimal oversight by the federal government. The only reason it doesn't happen is because its a hard process to do.

Deleted member 36543 · Jan 4, 2019

BigWinnie1 said:
I don't know why we have to. We repented and are a super cultural melting pot. We have way more to go in the integration of various cultures and cutting to the heart of discrimination in the United states. With China they just wholesale just trample on their ethnic minorities culture and try and restrict to monumental degree's. Re-education camps, stamping out of discention about discrimination in Tibet. The rape and kidnapping of the Muslim minority, I mean for fucks sake we had escapee's talking about forced marriages and

Dude the only country that's allowed to talk about other countries is Canadian. America shouldn't be saying shyt to feel good and feel like a heroe when we haven't repent for shyt. We killed the Indians to obtain our land, we brought Africans to this country to be slaves, we were the 1st and only country to drop the atom bomb on other humans. We get involved in other nations affairs : vietnam, Korea, Middle East, South America. We have the worst police for in the world that kills black kids. We put Japanese in camps, we are now taking kids from illegal immigrant parents and some are dying.

I know we want to be the good guys in our heart but it's just hard to swollow when we have Americans talking loud and proud on our high horse like we are the beacon of good & justice when history tells the different tale.

Deleted member 19003 · Jan 4, 2019

BigWinnie1 said:
I'm gonna be honest here. United States and Blacks have a fucked up relationship but Us Blacks damn near run pop culture and our culture is what sets most of the trends in this country. the Ulghur don't even have the chance to express themselves like we do and voice complaints to change the system. and the system has been changing since even when I was born (1990)

Having spies live with you to monitor your every move, forcing your daughters to be married off to water down your ethnicity, getting forced medical exams so you can be put on an organ harvesting list, and being kidnapped and imprisoned for even speaking out about this is better than how the US treats you. Sounds great! Time to move to China!

MasterChumly · Jan 4, 2019

I mean if a thread is going to be created for whataboutism then you better provide proof that they are just as bad. There is literally nothing in this thread showing that

Nesotenso · Jan 4, 2019

OP, how can even seriously compare the surveillance and the restrictions the Chinese put on the internet to what the US does? America isn't rounding up citizens and sending them to re-education camps.

Elfforkusu · Jan 4, 2019

Xinjiang

I don't think anything more should need to be said?

Deleted member 19003 · Jan 4, 2019

Monkey_D said:
Dude the only country that's allowed to talk about other countries is Canadian. America shouldn't be saying shyt to feel good and feel like a heroe when we haven't repent for shyt. We killed the Indians to obtain our land, we brought Africans to this country to be slaves, we were the 1st and onlycountry drop the atom bomb on other humans. We get involved in other nations affairs : vietnam, Korea, Middle East, South America. We have the worst police for in the world that kills black kids. We put Japanese in camps, we are not taking kids from illegal immigrant parents and some are dying.

I know we want to be the good guys in our heart but it's just hard to swollen when we have Americans talking loud and proud on hour high horse like we are the beacon and the most just in the worst when history tells the different tale.

??? Who are you talking to? No one in this thread is talking about how proud they are about being American and how perfect America is. You're creating a straw man to try to mitigate how awful the Chinese government actions are here. It's not a good look.

Deleted member 32561 · Jan 4, 2019

BigWinnie1 said:
That would be hard even with a conservative supreme court because our core constitution and multiple failsafes in the the framework of the government. I mean with the majority of state governments coming to agreement we can even amend our constitution with minimal oversight by the federal government. The only reason it doesn't happen is because its a hard process to do.

Hmm, yeah. I sincerely hope you're right, and you probably are.

Ghost Slayer · Jan 4, 2019

Hmm. I dont know. I think people can talk shit about Trump in public without being punished but I dont know if you can do it in China without consequences

Nesotenso · Jan 4, 2019

Monkey_D said:
Dude the only country that's allowed to talk about other countries is Canadian. America shouldn't be saying shyt to feel good and feel like a heroe when we haven't repent for shyt. We killed the Indians to obtain our land, we brought Africans to this country to be slaves, we were the 1st and only country to drop the atom bomb on other humans. We get involved in other nations affairs : vietnam, Korea, Middle East, South America. We have the worst police for in the world that kills black kids. We put Japanese in camps, we are now taking kids from illegal immigrant parents and some are dying.

I know we want to be the good guys in our heart but it's just hard to swollow when we have Americans talking loud and proud on our high horse like we are the beacon of good & justice when history tells the different tale.

Europeans stole native Iand in Canada as well.

Typhon · Jan 4, 2019

Monkey_D said:
Yes. Americans needs to shut the hell up and fix/focus our attention on our own fucking country. Blaming other country for the same shyt that we do so we can feel like the good guys is not going to fix the rotten core of this country.

No one in this topic is doing that

Xiaomi · Jan 4, 2019

maxglute said:
China is cleansing religion because they want the Uighur to integrate, US just wants to cleanse black people from society. China has worse methods, US has worse intentions.

Reading your take, I'm not sure you've read up on what's happening to the Uyghurs yet. Chinese local and state governments, as well as employers, are:

- Assigning "Han relatives" to Uyghurs (who are actually Han Chinese settlers occupying Uyghur homes) that they must report to and be monitored by
- Banning Uyghur language and culture from public spaces and the workplace
- Forcing marriage to Han Chinese men upon Uyghur women
- Detaining people in "vocational training schools" that are highly secretive
- Refusing to allow traditional burial rites and diet preferences
- Offering financial incentives to marry into Han Chinese culture and give up their own

I'm not sure if I caught everything, but how these intentions are better than American racists' will have to be more specifically broken down for me.

Ichthyosaurus · Jan 4, 2019

Monkey_D said:
Yes. Americans needs to shut the hell up and fix/focus our attention on our own fucking country. Blaming other country for the same shyt that we do so we can feel like the good guys is not going to fix the rotten core of this country.

What exactly do you think is going to fix this in China or America? You're right that acknowledging the similar issues the two countries is hard to throw stones but how does shutting down the conservation solve anything? Both countries do terrible things, and have their own twisted outcomes for the oppressed, so now what?

BigWinnie1 · Jan 4, 2019

Cas said:
??? Who are you talking to? No one in this thread is talking about how proud they are about being American and how perfect America is. You're creating a straw man to try to mitigate how awful the Chinese government actions are here. It's not a good look.

Pretty much. Being brown in america is not the greatest but I've been to china and It was fucking miserable there with A white girlfriend and our Black and Asian female roommates.
I almost got arrested because some old assholes thought it would be great to try and drag off My Chinese friend so she wouldn't be tainted by the darkies ( pretty much what she gathered as they tried to pull her away) and After I ran after them some more asshole tried to come up and act big and bad with the older dudes because they feel like I insuluted their whole nation with standing up for my friend to some asshole Han chinese.

If not for the fact we were leaving later that evening I doubt we would have made it out of China because It turned physical near the end when i had to kick some asshole who slapped her because she was trying to talk our way out of the situation peacefully. I kicked and made a decent hole and just grabbed hands and we ran for sometime before we got a ride to go to the hotel we were staying at and get our shit and book it.

Dreams-Visions · Jan 4, 2019

Cas said:
It's because China is authoritative and literally kidnaps, tortures, and kills dissenters and minorities. People are a bit more forgiving about their FB data being shared for advertising vs being dragged from their beds in the middle of the night for making a Winnie the Pooh reference about Xi in China.

this.

this thread is all kinds of ridiculous.

Deleted member 36543 · Jan 4, 2019

Cas said:
??? Who are you talking to? No one in this thread is talking about how proud they are about being American and how perfect America is. You're creating a straw man to try to mitigate how awful the Chinese government actions are here. It's not a good look.

I'm talking to the people that brought up the re-education camps, etc. I'm not saying it's a good thing but I just want people to look in the mirror and look at the history in this country before throwing shade to feel like the good guy. Save that same energy for Trump, the GOP.

Typhon · Jan 4, 2019

Monkey_D said:
I'm talking to the people that brought up the re-education camps, etc. I'm not saying it's a good thing but I just want people to look in the mirror and look at the history in this country before throwing shade to feel like the good guy. Save that same energy for Trump, the GOP.

NO ONE IS DOING THAT HERE! We all aknowlege the US has its problems. We are also aknowedge that what China is doing is cultural genocide.

Snormy · Jan 4, 2019

This thread appears to have run its course.

Isn’t America just as bad as China when it comes to mass surveillance?

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

I'll think about it