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Deleted member 52442

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 24, 2019
10,774
Games where the choices you make really do have an impact


Undertale took that concept and wove it into the narrative - did that solidify it as the GOAT or are there others to contend with?
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,778
I used to say Alpha Protocol, but Undertale is definitely better at it than AP was.
 

AshenOne

Member
Feb 21, 2018
6,110
Pakistan
Fahrenheit, Heavy rain, Beyond Two Souls and Detroit are kinds in 'interactive games that seem like movies' dept. for me unless you mean something different like RPG style stuff.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
Dark Savior.

www.resetera.com

The extraordinary Sega game that played the player

This is the fifth piece in Mama Robotnik's Sega Obscura ResetEra Series: Sega Obscura 1 - The Sega Saturn was the best console EVER for… Sega Obscura 2 - Sonic 1 (8-bit) is a better game than Sonic 1 (16-bit) Sega Obscura 3 - The first "Sonic the Hedgehog 2" released hates Sonic, and hates us...

Around twenty-two years ago, the most extraordinary adventure game by Climax and Sega came out on the Sega Saturn. Behind a boxart adorned with terrible CG and released to quiet fanfare, is the absolutely fascinating Dark Savior.

I'm using words like "extraordinary" and "fascinating" in their literal sense. The game must be studied, discussed, and dissected.

I'm not stating the game is one of the greatest ever made; there are certainly flaws though I personally hold it in very high regard . Nonetheless, there simply isn't anything like it out there, even decades since its release.

The Game

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Dark Savior is an isometric adventure game released for the Sega Saturn back in 1996 (USA and Japan) / 1997 (Europe), and was never released on any system ever again.

Some have described Dark Savior as a spiritual successor to Climax's seminal Landstalker on the Sega Genesis/Mega Drive, but other than some superficial similarities, the games are distinctly different.

What most adventure games do:

Action RPG or JRPG or WRPG with respective real-time or strategic combat system.

What Dark Saviour does:

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The game is a 3D platforming adventure game, combining detailed sprites and colourful polygons into a luscious isometric world.

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When combat is triggered, the game inexplicably turns into a barebones Street-Fighter styled brawler with the appropriate conventions (two/three rounds, health bars, special attack bar, low/high attacks, etc) COMBINED with a Pokemon-style capture system. The combat has limited depth, but is fun.

What most adventure games do:

Encourage you to explore the world, either as a plucky hero or as a band of champions.

What Dark Saviour does:

The game takes place on a single island – an ancient outpost covered in colourful ruins and castles, which of all been repurposed by an alliance of nations into an enormous prison.

You play a horrible character, surrounded by horrible characters. You are Garian, a humourless bounty hunter allied to the corrupt regime that maintains the prison. In the opening chapters, Garian gets drunk and nearly kills a small child, until a strange surreal phenomenon seemingly disrupts this.

The side characters are a range of killers, petty criminals and despots.

Jailer's Island contains towns for low-level offenders, fortified cells and blocks for the medium-level criminals, and bespoke containment facilities for political prisoners or high-value captives.

The politics of the region are highly charged. The administration engages in torture, murder, and has facilities which use the prisoners for unethical, agonising experiments. The prisoners attempt to organise some resistance, but as villains themselves, they are unable to do so effectively.

The range of environments is superb. From prison facilities to the Warden's mansion, hidden tombs to golden palaces, the interconnected island offers brilliant scope for exploration.

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The Story/Stories

What most adventure games do:

One story, or a story which branches multiple-choice options, that lead to good or bad endings.

What Dark Saviour does:

The story never ends.

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There are at least five distinct parallel timelines, happening both concurrently and in succession. Within each parallel, minor and major splinters can take the story in different directions – Sega Saturn Magazine (Issue 13) cited that there were at least a 100 possible story permutations and ending variants - but as we will cover later on - the game itself never technically ends.

Just to give you the scale of difference, here is one scenario:

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The protagonist spends the game chasing a murderous monster known as Bilan across Jailer's Island. Throughout the pursuit, we learn from ruins and murals that this incarnation of Bilan is one of many that have appeared throughout history, and the creature's appearances always align to a particular comet that passes the planet every five centuries, suggesting a possible extraterrestrial connection. The monster's strength and ferocity grows exponentially. With support from the island's administration, the protagonist slays Bilan before the monster enters a mass breeding cycle, from which it would spread copies across the world.

Play the game again. Here is another possible scenario:

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The protagonist kills a weakened Bilan at the start of the game, and spends the story carrying out a secret investigation into the administration of Jailer's Island. He infiltrates the Warden's Mansion, secret laboratories, torture facilities and mining complex to discover the prison is using slave labour to excavate alien substances sealed beneath the island – referred to as Bilanium. This mutagen is being used in unethical experiments to transform prisoners into soldiers. The protagonist allies himself with a prisoner resistance movement to topple the Warden's mad schemes.

Play the game again. Here is another possible scenario:

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The protagonist arrives at Jailer's Island during a crisis. Bilan is on the loose, and foreign spies have allied themselves with the prisoner resistance movement to destabilise the administration. Events get out of hand when the rebels gain access to the carbon-freeze archive in the execution facility – from where they are able to reanimate the corpses of the worst, most violent criminals to have ever lived. The protagonist and the Warden must put an end to the madness.

Play the game again. Here is another possible scenario:

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The parallel events, all happening both concurrently and in succession, are eroding the barriers between realities. Two parallel universes become linked at Jailer's Island, and the connection is causing a cataclysm that is shaking the two planets apart. The protagonist must hunt down and destroy his own parallel universe counterpart – who is a convicted murderer - in order to ensure that his reality remains dominant and survives, at the expense of the denizens of the parallel world.

I could list a lot more too. Some stories broach life after death, while others deal with romance, families and secret lineages.

Each scenario contains overlapping environments visited in different contexts, and unique environments that are only visited in that story permutation.

This "parallel system" is a phenomenal achievement. Knowing that upon completion, another story, and another story, and another story await you, is an incredible enticement to return to the game.

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Your allies will die, only to be your allies, enemies or utterly ambivalent next time round.

I can't think of a game where I have truly known such a range of characters in such a range of scenarios, with so many potential endgames.

Parallel Six

What most adventure games do:

The player plays the game.

What Dark Saviour does:

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The game plays the player

"LETS. MEET. IN. OUR. DREAMS."

There is a very mysterious, subversive, manipulative aspect to Dark Savior, which only really makes sense if you take all the above into consideration. We are going to enter deep spoiler territory here.

"It appeared as if the battle would continue for eternity"

I've told you about the world of Dark Savior, of its colourful realms and interesting characters, of its incredibly varied interactions and plot developments. Of the freedom our character has to dabble in the fascinating world of Jailer's Island.

"Do you think Garian is still tormented over the incident?"

But, in a sense, none of it is true. The game plays the player.

When a story is completed, there is no "game over". The protagonist awakens in his bunk on the Prisoner Transport, his memories of his previous adventure fading away into nothing. This is how the game starts, and ends, and starts, and ends, forever.

Throughout the stories, there are very subtle hints that the events we think are happening aren't real. There are careful, repeated references to the worlds of dreams, and of being trapped in an unseen way. Prisoners are tormented by nightmares, and cite fragmented memories from other parallel adventures.

"DID... YOU... EVER... THINK... I... MIGHT... HAVE... A... MIND... I... LOVE... I... LOVE..."

We learn that Jailer's Island has one punishment for the most severe of crimes – Carbon Freeze – in which prisoners are frozen as living corpses, forced into a prison of their own minds, forever.

"Bounty Hunter! You are being arrested for murder!"

Do you recall what I wrote at the top of this piece, about our character:



If you play enough story scenarios, enough clues become apparent to reveal what is truly going on. The protagonist did kill the child at the start of the game. He was sentenced to Carbon Freeze, where he is forced to live out every imagined outcome that could have happened had he not killed the child.

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"You neglected your duty and killed an innocent child."

He is forced to endure every Jailer's Island scenario that his own mind can conjure. Sometimes, there are the briefest of clues to this, his own mind recalling the true horror of where he is.

"They say that once you are frozen in carbon, you'll have endless nightmares… I wonder if that's true."

He has been a prisoner for a very, very long time. This is why the scenarios are so wild, from aliens, ancient conspiracies, world domination, magical weapons, political conspiracies , parallel universes, and more – the protagonist has been trapped for so long that the events he is imagining on the island have become impossibly surreal – to the point where scenarios occasionally bleed into each other.

"Torment yourself over the life you've wasted and regret it until your soul burns to ashes."

None of this is made explicit – there is no big reveal at any point – just a very slow, very gradual series of small revelations that a build a picture of the futility of Dark Savior.

"IF... ONLY... I... CAN... LIVE... AGAIN... I'M... SUFFERING... HELP... ME..."

When you realise this, you never get to play the game again, as for every subsequent adventure, you now realise that it is the game that is playing you. Every time you complete a playthrough, Garian wakes up in his bed, for his next round of self-conceived purgatory.

None of the scenario conclusions are happy, there is always loss or sacrifice. They are all, in that sense, nightmares.


In Conclusion

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I revere Dark Saviour. I love the world, the graphics, the music, the unique isometric style and the one-of-a-kind battle and capture system. I adore its magnificent range of stories and surprises. I like the controls and the challenge (though I appreciate these elements are divisive for some). I am still, as ever, in awe of how the game manipulated me as a gamer.

Dark Savior was a Sega Saturn exclusive, and like so many experimental and ambitious titles that graced that system, it was never released anywhere, ever again. There was no sequel, no ports, no spiritual successors, and it didn't inspire similar games or make any blip on the industry at all. It received around 80% - 90% in reviews, and having re-read some of the reviews from the era, I don't see much acknowledgement of the game's extraordinary attempt to contribute to the medium.

It almost certainly sold appallingly too.

But I want you to know that it exists, as there is nothing else out there like it.
 

Goldenroad

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,475
The problem is, I don't think it's fun to play. I'd take a KOTOR, or Mass Effect, or Wasteland 3, or Witcher 3, or Persona 4 Golden, or Disco Elysium, or numerous adventure games like Kentucky Route Zero, Life is Strange, The Stanley Parable, The Walking Dead. I could go on and on. I personally don't think Undertale is that good. Great soundtrack though. Probably a better soundtrack than any of the games I mentioned.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,192
UK

MLH

Member
Oct 26, 2017
715
The Stanley Parable is the no.1 game I think of that does this well.
It's a perfect example of great game design.
A narrator that speaks to you and guides you, but the player can do what they want and that's where the fun is, seeing how the game reacts to that.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
In terms of a game affecting future dialogue and story events based on your actions in an extremely micro-level scale instead of singular big choices that change the course of the story, yeah I'd go with Undertale at least for anything made in the new millennium. It's a game with hundreds of small divergences that don't always have dire plot consequence, but do lead to something new every time. However...

Dark Savior.

www.resetera.com

The extraordinary Sega game that played the player

This is the fifth piece in Mama Robotnik's Sega Obscura ResetEra Series: Sega Obscura 1 - The Sega Saturn was the best console EVER for… Sega Obscura 2 - Sonic 1 (8-bit) is a better game than Sonic 1 (16-bit) Sega Obscura 3 - The first "Sonic the Hedgehog 2" released hates Sonic, and hates us...

Reading this here, despite not having played it for myself, makes me want to give the crown to Dark Savior.
 

Shake Appeal

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,883
The Stanley Parable is the no.1 game I think of that does this well.
It's a perfect example of great game design.
A narrator that speaks to you and guides you, but the player can do what they want and that's where the fun is, seeing how the game reacts to that.
Yeah, I like this answer.

The Westwood Blade Runner also does some clever things with interactivity and branching narratives.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,601
Love Undertale because the choices aren't just dialogue options.

If you isn't a pacifist Undyne is very hard to beat because she wants to stop you no matter what, and she succeeded with me.
 
Jan 3, 2019
3,219
Stanley Parable is the king of "wonder if the game will acknowledge if I do this... yep it does", which is one of my favorite things about UT.
 

Legacy

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,704
Undertale was great but in terms of choices, Telltale's TWD Season 1 will always be my numero uno.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
Undertale was great but in terms of choices, Telltale's TWD Season 1 will always be my numero uno.
I love TWD, but the player actually has very little impact on the story. You end up in the same place regardless. For me, a great example here is Life Is Strange, wherein player decisions can actually result in a lot of changes - different people react completely differently at the end, different people are alive, etc.
 
Mar 9, 2018
3,766
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I love Undertale, have defended it against several haters and many more to come, but I think it is bested by many big time RPGs in that department like KOTOR, Dragon Age games, Mass Effect series.
 

Xagarath

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,140
North-East England
Undertale is up there but it's far from the only contender.
Life is Strange works it into the themes of the narrative more effectively, Pathologic plays with Brechtian detachment, and Silent Hill: Shattered Memories does a lot of clever things with incidental and unconscious choice.
 

Eamon

Prophet of Truth
Member
Apr 22, 2020
3,545
Dark Savior.

www.resetera.com

The extraordinary Sega game that played the player

This is the fifth piece in Mama Robotnik's Sega Obscura ResetEra Series: Sega Obscura 1 - The Sega Saturn was the best console EVER for… Sega Obscura 2 - Sonic 1 (8-bit) is a better game than Sonic 1 (16-bit) Sega Obscura 3 - The first "Sonic the Hedgehog 2" released hates Sonic, and hates us...
Oh my god thank you for sharing this. This was an outstanding read
 

dock

Game Designer
Verified
Nov 5, 2017
1,370
All of these moral choice games are spoiled by putting such a large emphasis on combat.

Undertale is undetermined by its random battles and lack of cessibility options.

I had to bail because I got stuck in an area repeating the same three 'funny' enemies and couldn't dodge fast enough, so my energy dwindled and I was faced with starting over, several hours. I enjoyed the decision making but was constantly punished for trying to move around the game.

It's cool that games like this can have such fandom but a shame they can't want for accessible games or recognise that some people don't want to spend so many hours trapped in boring combat.

This is hardly unique to Undertale. Even Paper Mario Origami King has some of the same problems.
 

RROCKMAN

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,824
LMAO

it's not even the best meta game, wake me up when y'all discover the infinity series(Ever 17 especially) , 428 Shibuya Scramble, amongst others

Dark Savior.

www.resetera.com

The extraordinary Sega game that played the player

This is the fifth piece in Mama Robotnik's Sega Obscura ResetEra Series: Sega Obscura 1 - The Sega Saturn was the best console EVER for… Sega Obscura 2 - Sonic 1 (8-bit) is a better game than Sonic 1 (16-bit) Sega Obscura 3 - The first "Sonic the Hedgehog 2" released hates Sonic, and hates us...
Iji did it first and better.

These as well

Undertale isn't even half as clever as these mentioned here despite its mainstream acceptance.
 

Chippu

Member
Oct 28, 2017
517
Netherlands
Dark Savior.

www.resetera.com

The extraordinary Sega game that played the player

This is the fifth piece in Mama Robotnik's Sega Obscura ResetEra Series: Sega Obscura 1 - The Sega Saturn was the best console EVER for… Sega Obscura 2 - Sonic 1 (8-bit) is a better game than Sonic 1 (16-bit) Sega Obscura 3 - The first "Sonic the Hedgehog 2" released hates Sonic, and hates us...

Wow, I'm really disappointed now that I missed this game when I was young and still owned a Saturn.
 

sredgrin

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,276
Man some of y'all really desperate to flex on some weird shit.
 

Camwi

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,375
Oct 25, 2017
9,007
Canada
I like Undertale a bunch, but seemingly not nearly as much as others.
For Earthbound inspired games I think I prefer Lisa, though that one is definitely aiming for different goals than Undertale. Also, it's been years since I've revisited that one.

For games that provide meaningful choices, I think Disco Elysium hit harder than anything else for me.
 
May 17, 2019
2,649
Not even close. I'd take Pathologic 1/2, The Void, Disco Elysium, This War of Mine, Kentucky Route Zero, Planescape, A House of Many Doors, and Rain World over it.
 

Kuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,676
Undertale has only 3 paths for the entire game and they are very all or nothing commitments...

There's a slew of WRPGs and Japanese visual novels that have much more interactivity in regards to gameplay affecting the narrative.

Disco Elysium is a strong recent game in this category.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,378
When it comes to "game tracking choices you don't think matter," Chrono Trigger does the whole fair/trial thing which was really surprising when it came out back in the 90's.
 
Jul 27, 2020
1,740
Dark Savior is my favorite Saturn game. The control can be a bit annoying and slippery during jumps, and battle system might bore you sometimes, but the fun and pure addiction i had during it made me glad i stuck by it.
 

slothrop

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Aug 28, 2019
3,878
USA
Interactive is not the right word here. You are talking about a narrative structure -- narratives are not even necessarily important to games, all of which are interactive. Tetris is an example.
 

Magog

Banned
Jan 9, 2021
561
Never played that one but if you're talking about multiple choices throughout the game Greedfall is fantastic.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,812

Bathory

Member
Dec 8, 2020
783
Dark Savior.

www.resetera.com

The extraordinary Sega game that played the player

This is the fifth piece in Mama Robotnik's Sega Obscura ResetEra Series: Sega Obscura 1 - The Sega Saturn was the best console EVER for… Sega Obscura 2 - Sonic 1 (8-bit) is a better game than Sonic 1 (16-bit) Sega Obscura 3 - The first "Sonic the Hedgehog 2" released hates Sonic, and hates us...

What a post, congratulations. Really want to play Dark Savior now.
 

Kazooie

Member
Jul 17, 2019
5,030
The thread title irritates me immensely, because most games are interactive. Hard to argue Super Mario Bros does not count as interactive.
 
Mar 29, 2018
7,078
As others have said, all games are interactive. What we're talking about here is reactive narrative design and structure.

Dark Savior.

www.resetera.com

The extraordinary Sega game that played the player

This is the fifth piece in Mama Robotnik's Sega Obscura ResetEra Series: Sega Obscura 1 - The Sega Saturn was the best console EVER for… Sega Obscura 2 - Sonic 1 (8-bit) is a better game than Sonic 1 (16-bit) Sega Obscura 3 - The first "Sonic the Hedgehog 2" released hates Sonic, and hates us...
Why would you quote the entire thing 😭

it's a perfect reference though