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Deleted member 5334

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So, as someone who has difficulties dealing with any level of motion controls (It's why I never finished Super Mario Galaxy and even the simple implementation in Animal Crossing City Folk was difficult to deal with) , this has been a huge accessibility issue. While my issues aren't "physical", per-say, it's more that I have a mental block that once I do certain functions or too many, I become unable to properly do anything further with my hands and freeze up. It's also partially why the most difficult section for me on Kingdom Hearts 3 for the minigames is the cutting one, rather than the pepper/salt shaker and Egg ones (even though both are annoying, honestly), despite it being the easiest. Not to mention, I have serious coordination issues.

That said, with the topic of Gyro being requested to be implemented in the Xbox controllers, this is a concern I have that the developers will make mandatory usage of it at some sections. While the topic is more focused on optional or required sections (and not exclusively used for the game), I do wanna know if we have a full list of games that use them to some capacity (or in full).

To give you an idea, this resulted in problems for me as followed:

- Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild requires certain sections of the games to use Gyro. While it's not everything and many of them you can easily by pass them by not doing (minus DLC Dungeons to some degree), I almost threw my Switch out of frustration and it legit made me cry trying to tackle some of the dungeons that made use of them. I get I could just skip them, but I was trying to do all the Shrines in the game and it's absolutely infuriating how mandatory they are. Not to mention, I know able-bodied people had trouble with these. Imagine someone who has serious issues with these.

- Pokemon Let's Go, due to not only the above aforementioned issue, I can't balance worth shit, which results in me having difficulties even in portable mode for Pokemon. The developer openly admitted they could've given the option to disable it. But as they said, if they had the option, they knew players would turn it off. And yet, people like me, it's really difficult to play. I have trouble capturing stationary Pokemon. I don't even wanna imagine the later Pokemon who move around the screen.

- Some sections on the first Uncharted (PS3 version, unsure how the PS4 version handles these) which require you to balance your PS3 controller to move the character across certain logs and stuff and balance them, did present some difficulty for me. Wasn't the worst thing in the world, but I'm sure others had more issues than me.

- While not game specific, the fact some games automatically enable Gyro rather than being an option to turn on/off, really annoyed me a couple times and absolutely messed with me until I realized what was going on. First game that came to mind is 3DS enhanced port of Ocarina of Time. Was wondering what was up, until I realized Gyro aiming/camera was on, and I took a bit to figure out how to turn it off.

- Super Mario Galaxy using motion controls quite a bit through the game. Normally I can deal with this just fine, since it's mostly limited during the gameplay (minus Mario spinning into enemies, which caused me serious issues), but when you get to the Spider boss in the one world, I cannot tell you how many times it took me to get through that fight because of the issues I had with motion controls and my limitation to be able to do the required moves to fight the boss. I don't know how many times it took me, but it required me to grind for lives a ton before I tried to tackle it and just continued to dwindle down on them. I lost count how many tries it took me but it was over 20 times, for sure.

Also, can I mention I'm not a fan of them in Super Mario Odyssey?

That said, while most of the above examples are Nintendo, I'm sure there's more from other publishers that I didn't mention. Either way, do we have a list of games that make them mandatory to some capacity? If not, can anyone name some games in the topic?
 

Tohsaka

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Nov 17, 2017
6,802
Lair on PS3 was notorious for this. I think they might've added in optional normal controls in a patch later but the damage was already done.
 

Deleted member 64377

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Splatoon 2 makes you play a brief tutorial using motion controls before it lets you turn them off. Once you've turned them off, though, you never have to use them again.
 

Deleted member 12790

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Lair on PS3 was notorious for this. I think they might've added in optional normal controls in a patch later but the damage was already done.

that doesn't completely remove the motion controls, either. It just makes some of the dumber motion control mapped options mapped to the stick. But even post patch, lair has a ton of motion controls.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 5334

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Splatoon 2 makes you play a brief tutorial using motion controls before it lets you turn them off. Once you've turned them off, though, you never have to use them again.

Oh god, I forgot about that. I almost didn't wanna do the tutorial mode because of that. It was absolutely a nightmare for me with them on. I never got the full game, but I tried it during the test splat, and that was just.. Ugh.
 

Wowfunhappy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,102
User banned (3 days): Dismissive commentary towards disability issues
- Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild [...] I almost threw my Switch out of frustration and it legit made me cry trying to tackle some of the dungeons that made use of them. I get I could just skip them, but I was trying to do all the Shrines in the game and it's absolutely infuriating how mandatory they are.

I really respect that you have trouble with motion controls, and that's fine, but this is where I lose sympathy with you a little bit.

The shrines are optional. You don't have to do them. I realize that you wanted to complete all the optional content, but, well, it's optional for a reason. You're basically saying that type of content can't exist in a larger game, just because you don't like the thought of skipping anything.

As someone who likes gyro controls (including the puzzles in BoTW), that's not a change I'd appreciate.

- While not game specific, the fact some games automatically enable Gyro rather than being an option to turn on/off, really annoyed me a couple times and absolutely messed with me until I realized what was going on.

But the alternative is that players wouldn't figure out that gyro aiming is an option. Defaults are the developer's way of saying "this is what we think will be the best way to play for the largest number of people." Largest ≠ everyone, but that's why there's an options menu.

The alternative is some sort of long set up screen that walks players through options. And some players may not even know what they mean. The motion control options in OoT3D were not buried at all.
 

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,279
The gyro puzzles in BotW are absolutely garbage, at least in handheld mode. But those are optional so whatever.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 5334

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I really respect that you have trouble with motion controls, and that's fine, but this is where I lose sympathy with you a little bit.

The shrines are optional. You don't have to do them. I realize that you wanted to complete all the optional content, but, well, it's optional for a reason. You're basically saying that type of content can't exist in a larger game, just because you don't like the thought of skipping anything.

As someone who likes gyro controls (including the puzzles in BoTW), that's not a change I'd appreciate.

Err...

I really don't appreciate that response as someone who has disability issues. For something that could've been likely retooled or likely been able to do those shrines without motion controls (or at least given an option to enable or disable it), that's a serious accessibility issue. You're literally victim blaming someone who wants to enjoy a game that ultimately has accessibility issues, especially someone who wanted to eventually try to 100% the game at some point.

Not cool.

EDIT:
But the alternative is that players wouldn't figure out that gyro aiming is an option. Defaults are the developer's way of saying "this is what we think will be the best way to play for the largest number of people." Largest ≠ everyone, but that's why there's an options menu.

The alternative is some sort of long set up screen that walks players through options. And some players may not even know what they mean. The motion control options in OoT3D were not buried at all.


I literally initially looked through the Menu where the inventory and stuff is, till I realized they were located in the pause menu, which took a bit of time to figure out. It's not immediately clear, at least not to me. And honestly, there should've been a set up menu at the start.

Why are you doing this? Why are you responding to me in this manner? Why are you blaming me for something that legit is causing me trouble, as a disabled individual? Like, this is not cool and it's part of the reason why I don't like to comment on the Gyro topics, because you guys handwave complaints like mine and others for this very reason.

This whole topic was about accessibility issues, but you instead turn around and attack me.
 
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Wowfunhappy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,102
You're literally victim blaming someone who wants to enjoy a game that ultimately has accessibility issues, especially someone who wanted to eventually try to 100% the game at some point.
I'm not blaming you at all, I think it's totally okay if you and others need to skip those sections—but also that this is why those sections are optional.

Is there a more equitable solution that doesn't involve outright removing a type of gameplay that other people enjoy? That's what I'm not finding here.

Edit: I really did not intend this as an attack, please don't take it that way! I'm actually broadly interested in the discussion of, how do we integrate new types of controls and gameplay in ways that entertain those who enjoy it but also don't drive people away.

I was just a little surprised to be Breath of the Wild in this list, since it actually did a good job of keeping those sections optional. I haven't played the DLC though.

I can't deal with horror, and I've had to put games down because there are specific sections I just can't get through. Does that mean we shouldn't have scary sections in games? I realize that's a little bit different, but I don't think the answers to these questions are so obvious.
 
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signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,279
One of them, I outright beat by just turning the entire tablet over and doing it upside down on my back, because the real way they wanted you to solve it was so frustrating.
Not lying I literally did that like 2 hours ago with one of the DLC champion's ballad ones, this Daruk fire one lol. The other ones I did were really stupid and janky movements and taking a while but this one I actually had to unplug it and lay borderline upside down on my bed. Never doing another one of those again!!
 

Jedi2016

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,909
While I'm a fan of most forms of gyro control, I do believe they should be optional. And, the game should tell you up front that it's using them and give you the option right from the start to turn them off. Doom 64 had me guessing for a bit when my aim kept being thrown off for no apparent reason, before I realized the game had gyro controls that were on by default. While it's a neat addition, the game has effectively 2D aiming and gyro just feels weird when you're locked to one axis, so I turned it right off.

And in cases where it's used in multiple ways, give each one an on/off switch. BotW is a good example. The gyro aiming is sublime, but the gyro puzzles are shit. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to do those with the standard controls.
 

Jedi2016

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,909
Is there a more equitable solution that doesn't involve outright removing a type of gameplay that other people enjoy? That's what I'm not finding here.
Options > Controls > Gyro Controls On/Off <--- Every game should have this.

It doesn't have to "remove" anything, just make it optional. Those puzzles can stay in there just as they are. If you're using gyro controls, you use the whole pad to play. If you're not, you just use the two sticks. Problem solved.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 5334

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I can't deal with horror, and I've had to put games down because there are specific sections I just can't get through. Does that mean we shouldn't have scary sections in games? I realize that's a little bit different, but I don't think the answers to these questions are so obvious.

Horror and control decisions are VERY two different issues, and the latter is a result of a disability which causes an individual not to be able to play a game or fully enjoy it. The former can be a preference (though some cases result of trauma that make the individual unable to play them which I'm not handwaving this issue, for the record).

When a game is almost primarily done without any sort of motion controls, and then out of nowhere, they're present in the game, then it is an issue. Some games are clearly capable of being designed without them, but developer chose not to (the motion control puzzles in Breath of the Wild, Pokemon Let's Go which the developer also confirmed they could've disabled it in an interview,, etc). I'm not talking inherently about say Skyward Sword or some party games, since the entire game was designed around the motion controls, but a game where they come out of nowhere despite majority of the game not using them.

That is a serious accessibility issue and it's why it bothers me that these sections exist. You say we can skip them, sure, but they shouldn't be there or cropped up out of nowhere. Or rather, if they are there, there should be a function that allows for control mappings, depending if Gyro/Motion Controls are on or off.
 

LinkStrikesBack

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,467
I'm not blaming you at all, I think it's totally okay if you and others need to skip those sections—but also that this is why those sections are optional.

Is there a more equitable solution that doesn't involve outright removing a type of gameplay that other people enjoy? That's what I'm not finding here.

The thing about BOTW specifically is the gyro controlled shrines, at least the ones in thinking of where you guide an orb through a maze by tilting the maze via gyro controls could easily be controlled with a two analogue sticks too; now it wouldn't be ideal, but they definitely could and it would help people like OP get through the game.


Heck, those specific puzzle segments have existed in Zelda before with both a traditional control scheme and a motion control one, as rollgoal in Twilight Princess.
zelda.gamepedia.com

Rollgoal

Rollgoal is a Mini-Game in Twilight Princess.[1] Rollgoal is a minigame invented by Hena.[1] It is located inside her hut in the Fishing Hole in the Upper Zora's River. In order to play it, Link must go into first-person perspective and examine the game board located close to the entrance door...

It's a bit weird they didn't think the choice to limit the controls through.
 

Vonocourt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,647
As far as I'm aware, the JP exclusive Xbox 360 version of No More Heroes: Heroes' Paradise is the only way to play the first game without motion controls as the PS3 version, despite having a standard controller option that remaps stuff like grapple attacks to the thumbsticks, requires the Sixaxis to recharge the beam katana.
Would all of those actually have been doable with a joystick? I think my memory might be wrong, I haven't played BoTW since release.

Gyro gives you an extra degree of movement, so you can't always map them 1:1.
It's marble madness and moving a hammer, it could be done with a stick.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 5334

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As far as I'm aware, the JP exclusive Xbox 360 version of No More Heroes: Heroes' Paradise is the only way to play the first game without motion controls as the PS3 version, despite having a standard controller option that remaps stuff like grapple attacks to the thumbsticks, requires the Sixaxis to recharge the beam katana.

Oh that makes that really strange, then. Not to say it shouldn't have been in the PS3 version to begin with, but the fact there is a console version without it, makes zero sense why the PS3 version couldn't do the same as an optional option.
 

Ed.

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 25, 2017
652
I couldn't find a comprehensive list in a quick search.

Some examples I thought of are Wii Sports and Wii Sports Resort. I didn't try to turn them off but I have a feeling those are pretty required. Same with Ring Fit Adventure. I don't recall seeing an option to turn off the motion controls, but I don't know if it would be as interesting playing through that story just with stick and buttons since they really want you to use your body to do a lot of the attacks.