Is the lack of DLSS-like feature an issue for PS5 and XSX

[MercuryLS]

Right now you're seeing a trade off between high frame rates and rt, something like DLSS would really help here but both consoles lack the hardware acceleration for something like this. I know that AMD is working on a similar feature, but even then, it probably won't run as well as it does on Nvidia cards that have dedicated hardware to accelerate this.

Do you think it's a big miss on Sony and MS's part? Do you foresee a pro model of the current machines that incorporate hardware that can help do this?

 

[SuperRaddy]

I think its needed for RT to be meaningful this gen without severe sacrifices in quality/performance.

 

[Lashley]

It's pretty much needed for RT

 

[2Blackcats]

Aren't we getting it some time this year, super resolution or whatever AMD's solution is.

I don't think it's going to be anything close to a game changer but it will help

 

[SunBroDave]

Checkboard rendering wasn't really a thing until the PS4 Pro either (it's a Ubisoft pioneered technique, I think it was only in R6 Siege at first). Ask this question again in another 3 years

 

[WhtR88t]

It's pretty much needed for RT

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I think RT on the current consoles will be a 30fps thing as we've seen on most releases. Not necessarily a bad thing, but I think most AAA titles will have RTing enabled at 30fps.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

No it won't be a issue .

 

[Reckheim]

yeh, I wouldn't count on RT being a thing later in the generation for consoles. Unless of course the AMD solution actually can be implemented somehow.

 

[dstarMDA]

It's something that both would have been great but was completely off the table for those consoles as AMD does not have the architecture for it and Nvidia is a no go as a partner for MS and Sony. Devs will work around it, as they've done with each and every shortcoming of previous console generations.

Similar, matured tech may be one of the core upgrades of potential pro/x consoles, yes. In the meantime, no need to worry too much over something that just couldn't have been done. The PS5 and XSX mostly are the best hardware that we could have at this price, in this timeframe.

 

[Stacey]

We've seen 60fps Spidey with RT. They'll be fine

 

[LumberPanda]

No. Developers will just use lower native resolutions with the existing upscaling methods.

Nobody's up in arms about Miles Morales dipping to 1080p on the 60fps Raytracing mode.

 

[Samiya]

i imagine it'll be used as a selling point for the inevitable Pro version to get you to go out buy new products

 

[Vimto]

Something like DLSS was not an option during next gen console development and is still not an option for high end amd cards.

 

[Tora]

yeh, I wouldn't count on RT being a thing later in the generation for consoles. Unless of course the AMD solution actually can be implemented somehow.

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We've barely seen these machines flex their muscles and as always, software becomes even more optimised as the gen goes on.

Look at what we have with UE5 coming up for example and all of the specific architectural improvements that RDNA provides; you'll see RT in some form

 

[asd202]

Depends on what AMD solution would be. It's possible that whatever they have may not have been worth the wait. Anyway in 3 years I think we will see Pro models that will just brute force the settings on base console with RT at 4K 60FPS locked.

 

[DSN2K]

Its going take some tricks of the trade get the best out of RT on XSX and PS5 this gen. Nether are powerful enough for a full feature set. Spiderman is good example of using RT correctly within PS5 Limitations.

 

[LuckyLocke]

I seem to recall MS working on a similar feature before the Series launch. Something called DirectML? It would be implemented on both the xbox and the amd graphics cards on PC.

 

[calibos]

Pretty sure things will be good. MS is working on solutions similar to DLSS with machine learning and Sony are checkerboard render champions so those things should continue to advance. Will they be as good as DLSS? It's far to early to tell.

 

[modiz]

DLSS is a software solution created by NVidia, it is just done faster via dedicated AI cores.
AMD are making a similar software solution. Consoles had similar solutions for years as well.
They will be fine.

 

[tyfon]

Not really, you will probably get the choice between 30 fps and RT or 60 fps in most titles that will support it.
Personally I'm going with 60 fps :)

 

[Mossiah]

I really don't think this will be an issue. There are more games that shipped with complex solutions to be able to use ray-tracing and achieve 60fps. What really needs to happen is less of an attachment to resolutions and more of an attachment to image. Insomniac's 'performance RT' may dip at times to 1080p, but you cannot deny no matter what display you're on it looks like a fantastic AAA image and plays like a fantastic AAA experience.

 

[Deleted member 19533]

It's going to a be a mid-gen refresh feature I'd wager.

 

[Deleted member 30077]

There's already plenty of DLSS-like features on consoles: checkboard rendering and temporal upscaling for example.

 

[Thera]

It's required because RT is mostly brute force now.
When RT will be optimised, it will be less important.

If we are talking about the next Switch or portable gaming in general (including laptops), it is required.

 

[Sonicfan1373]

Mainly will be an issue for RT performance, but otherwise no. I do hope we get mid-gen consoles with a good GPU upgrade (ideally something like DLSS, more compute, and more performant RT).

 

[z0m3le]

Sony and Microsoft will sell you consoles later this generation with hardware AI upscaling, and it will be a big feature that will push the new pro models pretty hard, probably in 2024.

 

[modiz]

There's already plenty of DLSS-like features on consoles: checkboard rendering and temporal upscaling for example.

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pretty much, they might not be as accurate as PC's DLSS is, but it gets the job done. And AMD are also creating a similar multiplatform solution to DLSS to be released in the future.

 

[TechnicPuppet]

Yes definitely. Gonna need a mid gen refresh.

 

[daninthemix]

Compared to what? You've gone from no-RT, near ubiquitous 30fps last gen to frequent 60fps this gen, or RT 30fps. What more do you want - the moon on a stick?

It was never an option for the consoles, even if AMD had it they can't afford the die space.

 

[rntongo]

DirectML on the Series X will do the trick

 

[Sprat]

They will figure it out but every game I've played with RT looks worse with it. The reflections look too clear and fake on most surfaces.

So far is just made games overly shiny as if someone went around and polished every surface to a mirror sheen

 

[Alexandros]

It will be a massive boon for Nvidia. Low-cost 30xx cards (whenever those appear) could plausibly offer better-than-console performance. It could be an issue if someone is going to choose between a PC upgrade and a next-gen console but I don't think it will matter in the competition between the consoles.

 

[sirap]

AMD and developers will come out with their own solutions that might not be as performant as DLSS but still provide tangible boosts to frame-rate.

 

[Vashetti]

We've seen 60fps Spidey with RT. They'll be fine

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Not to diminish them too much as they look great, but at their heart the two Spidey titles are PS4 games.

 

[Hope]

It is but they will push it with the midgen refresh.

 

[JINX]

Aren't we getting it some time this year, super resolution or whatever AMD's solution is.

I don't think it's going to be anything close to a game changer but it will help

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Super Resolution is Microsoft's/Xbox's AI upscaling technique built on DirectML, I assume AMD is just building off it considering theirs is called "FidelityFX Super Resolution."

 

[Pancracio17]

We've barely seen these machines flex their muscles and as always, software becomes even more optimised as the gen goes on.

Look at what we have with UE5 coming up for example and all of the specific architectural improvements that RDNA provides; you'll see RT in some form

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Yeah without DLSS the consoles probably wouldnt do RT global illumination outside of like Minecraft maybe, but at least shadows and reflections will be pretty common in the future I think. At least in the 30fps modes.

 

[AshenOne]

No. With such a bargain price for next gen consoles, DLSS isn't needed for price/performance.

 

[Zombegoast]

Doesn't MS have a solution with VRS?

I think only Gears Tactic uses it.

 

[Deleted member 34788]

No, just like we had big advancements in post process aa in the ps3 and 360 era, and big innovations in render resolutions in thr ps4 and xb1 era, the same is very likely going to happen for a dlss like solution.


A software solution will be created or one that use the hw on the new machines, it will not be as good as DLSS at all, but it will take a lot of pressure off of devs and allow them to push the boundaries further and further.

 

[Armaros]

We have already seen what a pure software implementations of DLSS does. It a was worse use of graphics processing then just the normal way.
A pure software implementation would use up a sizable portion of a console's performance for the calculations and end up with less for the actual rendering.

And all of this is ignoring any new developments from Nvidia.

 

[Classybro]

MS has a solution in Directx coming. As of now no game is even running the rdna2 toolset. It's way to early the series consoles in particular came in hot and honestly shouldn't have been released till later this year.

Hell all summer MS touted there "Velocity" architecture but as of now not a si glue game is using it. It's too early we don't know and it's a fools errand to assume anything as of now. More than typically at the start of a new gen things will be dramatically different in the years to come.

 

[gothmog]

Not to diminish them too much as they look great, but at their heart the two Spidey titles are PS4 games.

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Does this really matter in a world with enhanced BC patches and cross platform services like Gamepass? Features are features, and if they're enabled they are going to try and use the hardware available.

 

[Teddie28]

It is a problem that unfortunately won't be addressed until Pro versions of these consoles drop.

 

[Dictator]

I think it was a pretty big oopsie for RDNA 2 to not invest in ML performance more... but I think MS will be coming up with some ML-modified TAA upsampling much like how DLSS 2.0 works. Then AMD will make some non-ML version that will just basically be TAA Upsampling like we have seen in many games already.

 

[Classybro]

No, just like we had big advancements in post process aa in the ps3 and 360 era, and big innovations in render resolutions in thr ps4 and xb1 era, the same is very likely going to happen for a dlss like solution.


A software solution will be created or one that use the hw on the new machines, it will not be as good as DLSS at all, but it will take a lot of pressure off of devs and allow them to push the boundaries further and further.

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Lol what????

 

[brawndolicious]

I really don't think this will be an issue. There are more games that shipped with complex solutions to be able to use ray-tracing and achieve 60fps. What really needs to happen is less of an attachment to resolutions and more of an attachment to image. Insomniac's 'performance RT' may dip at times to 1080p, but you cannot deny no matter what display you're on it looks like a fantastic AAA image and plays like a fantastic AAA experience.

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But what happens when games move past the cross-gen period? For now, most games are designed to look decent with or without RT but eventually, a studio may want to make a game where dynamic, RT-based lighting is fundamental to achieve the visual style the developer is aiming for.

And it's obviously not just RT that gets a performance improvement with DLSS. It's a way to cheat performance and image quality with all the elements on screen. I mean normally, you expect consoles to get all the same effects as PC but with lower resolution and framerate but we are starting this generation with something like a 3060ti having over 3X the performance of the consoles in a RT-heavy game like Control.

We know MS is working on a ML-based reconstruction technique and Sony probably is too, but it takes time and experimentation by developers to integrate it into their engines.

 

[DvdGzz]

Yes and it's the reason we'll most likely have another mid gen refresh.

 

[Classybro]

I think it was a pretty big oopsie for RDNA 2 to not invest in ML performance more... but I think MS will be coming up with some ML-modified TAA upsampling much like how DLSS 2.0 works. Then AMD will make some non-ML version that will just basically be TAA Upsampling like we have seen in many games already.

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Have developers expressed to you whether they are actually using RDNA2 fully in there games?

 

[SoundLad]

Not at all.

The demand to shoehorn RT into every console title is an issue, however.