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xillyriax

Game Test Analyst
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
773
California, USA
Coming from a programming perspective, I'm not sure anyone could define to you the difference between a glitch and a bug.

Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glitch It's kind of funny reading Wikipedia's page on it, it gives some vague difference in definition, but the Video Game section immediately writes about "glitches/bugs" and uses them interchangeably a few times.
For me/us/we/the company I work for - a bug is something that be tracked, logged, and reproduced and can get, well, "squashed."

"it's not a bug, it's a feature" is something you hear/read

A glitch would be something like a tempory disruption, or a one-off, unreproducible, even an unintended side-effect
 

nded

Member
Nov 14, 2017
10,576
A glitch would imply something is temporarily malfunctioning. The scenario you describe sounds like it's working exactly as programmed, it's just that the programmer either didn't notice the odd behavior or didn't think it was worth fixing.

Edit: I suppose it could be considered a minor bug? It's probably unintentional but doesn't interfere very much with functionality.
 
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chanunnaki

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,783
It's Doom that is known to have a quicker run with strafe run... Goldeneye's "glitch" is looking down while running.

I don't consider any of this stuff glitches. Glitches to me are once-off or rare occurrences in games. When something can performed consistently throughout the run of a game, it could be considered more like an advanced technique than a glitch IMO
 
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Stopdoor

Stopdoor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,778
Toronto
A glitch would imply something is temporarily malfunctioning. The scenario you describe sounds like it's working exactly as programmed, it's just that the programmer either didn't notice the odd behavior or didn't think it was worth fixing.

Well, people can reliably reproduce crazy warps that skip the entire game, so I'm not sure "temporarily malfunctioning" is entirely accurate.
 

Heid

Member
Jan 7, 2018
1,808
A glitch would imply something is temporarily malfunctioning. The scenario you describe sounds like it's working exactly as programmed, it's just that the programmer either didn't notice the odd behavior or didn't think it was worth fixing.
All glitches work exactly as programmed... they're just not programmed correctly..

A glitch =/= game breaking/hitching bug
 

dragonbane

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,585
Germany
In the context of speedrunning every community defines their own rules of how to define a glitch. The following approaches exist:

-Intentional. Everything is a glitch and thus banned that does not appear intentionally put in by the creators of the game. Often referred to as truly glitchless
-Old SDA rules. The assumption is that the game character is aware of himself/herself and everything is considered a glitch that wouldn't make sense to the character, such as passing through walls all of a sudden, but moving faster through some mechanic abuse might be fine
-Completely arbitrary. Complete random selection of what goes and what doesn't, usually based on how fun the run will be as a result. Often called bug limit and pioneered by many Japanese speedrunners

In Twilight Princess we are using 3, but are considering switching to 1 or making a separate category for it. However what is intentional and what isn't can also be met with fierce debate, but I would argue under that assumption even something like whistle sprinting in BotW would be banned.
 

Cranster

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,788
A glitch would imply something is temporarily malfunctioning. The scenario you describe sounds like it's working exactly as programmed, it's just that the programmer either didn't notice the odd behavior or didn't think it was worth fixing.

Not really, for example BXR (and other button combos), Superbouncing, ect. were all labeled by Bungie as unintended glitch's and therefore classified their use in Halo 2 matchmaking as exploits/cheating.
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,583
Why did it take 49 posts to say that it's an exploit? I thought that was immediately obvious. Not a bug, but an unforseen consequence of systems combining.
 
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Stopdoor

Stopdoor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,778
Toronto
Why did it take 49 posts to say that it's an exploit? I thought that was immediately obvious. Not a bug, but an unforseen consequence of systems combining.

Well, because "exploit" isn't really clearly defined. A warp that lets you skip a ton of the game is an "exploit" that uses "unforseen consequence of systems combining". Nothing is a glitch if everything is an exploit.
 

daTRUballin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,139
Portland, Oregon
I've always liked using this in Goldeneye and Perfect Dark. The World Is Not Enough had this too. It was just a thing all N64 shooters had at the time. It was like the N64 version of pressing one of the analog sticks on the Xbox or PlayStation controller to sprint lol. I never saw it as a "glitch" really.
 

Setsune

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,649
Thankfully the HD remake included an extra cutscene.

"James, I've modified your shoes so you can Slidey Walk, just as you requested."
"Thank you, Q. Now I'll be able to find the Golden Eye in no time. Bond out."
"That's not- *fzzt*"

Shame speedrunners don't play that version because of a long, unskippable cutscene...
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,583
Well, because "exploit" isn't really clearly defined. A warp that lets you skip a ton of the game is an "exploit" that uses "unforseen consequence of systems combining". Nothing is a glitch if everything is an exploit.
Glitches are mistakes in the code. Exploits use existing features in unintended ways.
 

xillyriax

Game Test Analyst
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
773
California, USA
Not really, for example BXR (and other button combos), Superbouncing, ect. were all labeled by Bungie as unintended glitch's and therefore classified their use in Halo 2 matchmaking as exploits/cheating.
nope,
https://web.archive.org/web/2008021...ID=7068597&viewreplies=true&postRepeater1-p=2
Ninja 0n Fire was (still is?) Bungie's playlist designer
"Don't call them "glitches" - that's just a candy coated term and does not accurately describe what they are. They're bugs that alter the intended functionality of the weapons and gameplay. "
 
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Stopdoor

Stopdoor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,778
Toronto
Glitches are mistakes in the code. Exploits use existing features in unintended ways.

A Goldeneye programmer could easily come in here and tell you that it was a mistake in the code that you could move faster diagonally in Goldeneye, he had meant to set some flag to adjust for it, or mis-typed a number that caused it. "Existing features" aren't always visibly different from a "mistake in the code", which is why programmers joke with tongue-in-cheek about "it's not a bug, it's a feature".
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,583
A Goldeneye programmer could easily come in here and tell you that it was a mistake in the code that you could move faster diagonally in Goldeneye, he had meant to set some flag to adjust for it, or mis-typed a number that caused it. "Existing features" aren't always visibly different from a "mistake in the code", which is why programmers joke with tongue-in-cheek about "it's not a bug, it's a feature".
And if they did, then we'd know for sure, but without it, I'd say it's an exploit. Moreover, I'm surprised that you didn't raise this in your first post, since the distinctions between glitch and exploit is a far more interesting one than if what's happening is specifically intended.
 
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Stopdoor

Stopdoor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,778
Toronto
And if they did, then we'd know for sure, but without it, I'd say it's an exploit. Moreover, I'm surprised that you didn't raise this in your first post, since the distinctions between glitch and exploit is a far more interesting one than if what's happening is specifically intended.

I would argue that without confirmation, you still haven't defined "existing feature" well enough to call it different.

I don't really find the distinction that interesting because everyone talks in vague wishy-washy terms like "existing feature" and "unintended use". That's my point with the thread, that these distinctions aren't that useful.
 

nded

Member
Nov 14, 2017
10,576
Well, people can reliably reproduce crazy warps that skip the entire game, so I'm not sure "temporarily malfunctioning" is entirely accurate.
All glitches work exactly as programmed... they're just not programmed correctly..

A glitch =/= game breaking/hitching bug
Not really, for example BXR (and other button combos), Superbouncing, ect. were all labeled by Bungie as unintended glitch's and therefore classified their use in Halo 2 matchmaking as exploits/cheating.
These are called bugs or programming errors. They're easily reproduced and we generally know what causes them. It's just semantics since it's gradually becoming a synonym for "bug", but the word "glitch" previously meant a random voltage spike or minor transient fault and is by definition difficult to pinpoint.
 
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Jeeves

Member
Nov 21, 2017
411
Why did it take 49 posts to say that it's an exploit? I thought that was immediately obvious. Not a bug, but an unforseen consequence of systems combining.
I'm with you. Exploits are all about how they're used; they're conditional. The existence of a glitch makes it a glitch even if it's not used or discovered.

In Smash Melee for example, wavedashing is just taking advantage of the sliding state induced by air dodging diagonally into the ground. It was intentionally programmed to make you slide if you dodge into the ground, but they didn't foresee the way that it would be utilized by players, which makes wavedashing an exploit.

Exploits are things that can be logically pieced together from intended systems within the game. Glitches are generally outcomes that you would not guess to occur as a result of the actions leading up to it.
 
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Stopdoor

Stopdoor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,778
Toronto
These are called bugs or programming errors. They're easily reproduced and we generally know what causes them. It's just semantics since it's gradually becoming a synonym for "bug", but the word "glitch" previously meant a random voltage spike or minor transient fault and is by definition difficult to pinpoint.

The definition of "bug" literally comes from a literal bug that got into a computer and caused a malfunction - the definition of a "random", "difficult to pinpoint" fault.

And is it really that useful to separate "bug" as something "easily reproduced" vs. glitch as random? It doesn't really mean much to this discussion, compared to the bug and/or glitch's severity and programmer intention. Speedrunners in "glitchless" categories aren't avoiding random occurrences.

I'm with you. Exploits are all about how they're used; they're conditional. The existence of a glitch makes it a glitch even if it's not used or discovered.

In Smash Melee for example, wavedashing is just taking advantage of the sliding state induced by air dodging diagonally into the ground. It was intentionally programmed to make you slide if you dodge into the ground, but they didn't foresee the way that it would be utilized by players, which makes wavedashing an exploit.

Exploits are things that can be logically pieced together from intended systems within the game. Glitches are generally outcomes that you would not guess to occur as a result of the actions leading up to it.

Well, you wouldn't guess that you would move faster if you strafed and walked forward in Goldeneye at the same time. There's no logical intuition to it. It's just "there". I don't think that line of "intentionally programmed" can really just expand to all the way a user uses some abstract behaviour.
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,970
that's a design oversight, not a glitch. when you take advantage of that design oversight in order to compete, then it can be considered an exploit.

That does actually make it a glitch.

just because glitches are unintended does not mean that everything unintended is a glitch

It's Doom that is known to have a quicker run with strafe run... Goldeneye's "glitch" is looking down while running.
that's arguably an exploit but definitely not a glitch
 
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Deleted member 2171

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,731
It's a bug in Goldeneye that evolved into a feature in Perfect Dark. Perfect Dark added sprinting, though, to make the target mission times more accessible.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,609
Arizona
I also kind of think of how BotW had that "whistle-running" glitch that let you mash the whistle button and avoid depleting your stamina while running - is that "using a game mechanic in unintended ways"? Seems a bit more dubious than even this Goldeneye thing.
In this case, the individual (and directly related) systems are still working exactly as intended. The combined result may not have been accounted for, but nothing is broken. In BotW you have one system fully superseding and disabling a completely unrelated system, so that's an outright bug.
 

Jeeves

Member
Nov 21, 2017
411
Well, you wouldn't guess that you would move faster if you strafed and walked forward in Goldeneye at the same time. There's no logical intuition to it. It's just "there". I don't think that line of "intentionally programmed" can really just expand to all the way a user uses some abstract behaviour.
I'm assuming the way the game works (since I haven't played it it ages) is that your character moves faster when strafing, for the intended purpose of being able to move quickly enough to strafe out of the line of fire. I'm not saying it's the most intuitive thing in this case, but I'm sure someone wondered "if strafing makes me move faster left and right, does it just make me faster in general?" And so in my view it's intentional game behavior being utilized in ways not intended (in this case a pretty big oversight), which makes it an exploit.

Another example, if you're familiar with Mario Kart DS, would be snaking. Snaking your way through a race is not the way the game was intended to be played, buuuut the way drifting works in the game makes it pretty easy and fairly intuitive to exploit, and I don't know if anyone would make an argument for that being a glitch. Going by the assumptions I'm admittedly making, I'd say this Goldeneye technique falls under the same umbrella as snaking.
 

Pikelet

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,401
In Goldeneye you need to beat some of the missions really fast in order unlock the cheats. The times you need to beat on certain missions are extremely difficult even if you do use the strafe running trick. Without the strafe running trick I wouldn't be surprised if it's physically possible to get under the time limit.

This leads me to believe that the trick was well understood by the developers, and so therefore wasn't an oversight or a glitch but rather an intended feature of the game.

Thematically the mechanic makes no sense, but for gameplay purposes I think it actually works pretty well. It's an extra skill that adds a little bit of depth to the movement.
 

eraFROMAN

One Winged Slayer
Member
Mar 12, 2019
2,889
Rare was aware of it; it's basically required to unlock cheats on both GoldenEye and Perfect Dark.
 

sbkodama

Member
Oct 28, 2017
203
Up/down + left/right don't form a circle but a square, if you don't correct the result of the diagonales you end up with them bigger than simple directions.
 

GrrImAFridge

ONE THOUSAND DOLLARYDOOS
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,675
Western Australia
Strafe jumping in Quake as well does the same thing. Not a glitch, just using game mechanics in unintended ways.



Used to practice those exact same jumps all the time.


It actually is, in Carmack's own words, "an exploitable bug". He fixed it while working on Quake 3, but this had an adverse effect on normal movement, so he begrudgingly left it in:

Carmack's .plan said:
6/3/99
------
Whee! Lots of hate mail from strafe-jupers!

Some reasonable messages have convinced me that a single immediate jump
after landing may be important to gameplay. I'll experiment with it.

Strafe jumping is an exploitable bug. Just because people have practiced
hard to allow themselves to take advantage of it does not justify it's
existance. When I tried fixing the code so that it just didn't work, I
thought it changed the normal running movement in an unfortunate way.

In the absense of powerups or level features (wind tunnels, jump pads, etc),
the game characters are supposed to be badasses with big guns. Arnold
Schwartzenegger and Sigourney Weaver don't get down a hallway by hopping
like a bunny rabbit.

This is personal preference, but when I play online, I enjoy it more when
people are running around dodging, rather than hopping.

My personal preference just counts a lot. :-)

I'd love to visit the alternate universe in which the game shipped without it, haha.
 
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Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,583
I'm assuming the way the game works (since I haven't played it it ages) is that your character moves faster when strafing, for the intended purpose of being able to move quickly enough to strafe out of the line of fire. I'm not saying it's the most intuitive thing in this case, but I'm sure someone wondered "if strafing makes me move faster left and right, does it just make me faster in general?" And so in my view it's intentional game behavior being utilized in ways not intended (in this case a pretty big oversight), which makes it an exploit.

Another example, if you're familiar with Mario Kart DS, would be snaking. Snaking your way through a race is not the way the game was intended to be played, buuuut the way drifting works in the game makes it pretty easy and fairly intuitive to exploit, and I don't know if anyone would make an argument for that being a glitch. Going by the assumptions I'm admittedly making, I'd say this Goldeneye technique falls under the same umbrella as snaking.
Exactly this. Simply using the existing systems in a way that the developers didn't specifically intend doesn't make it necessarily a glitch, it makes it a "huh, I guess if you add up those things, I suppose it would do that after all - I never thought of trying that".

If your view is that something unintended is a glitch, that makes a ton of stuff glitches which I'm sure no one would say is the case. Putting a bucket on someone's head in Skyrim to prevent them from seeing you steal stuff isn't a glitch. Using the respawn mechanics in Destiny to farm a cave isn't a glitch. Doing a short hop on a shell when it's up against the wall to generate infinite lives in Mario isn't a glitch. Some of that got changed, yeah, but that doesn't make it a glitch.
 

LazyLain

Member
Jan 17, 2019
6,500
Some games even embraced it as an intended feature. Turok: Dinosaur Hunter even explicitly tells you to do it in the advanced section of its tutorial, albeit in the context of making longer jumps rather than as just an all-around movement strat... but still it intentionally teaches you that foward+strafe is faster.

uE59l9e.jpg
 

daTRUballin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,139
Portland, Oregon
Thankfully the HD remake included an extra cutscene.

"James, I've modified your shoes so you can Slidey Walk, just as you requested."
"Thank you, Q. Now I'll be able to find the Golden Eye in no time. Bond out."
"That's not- *fzzt*"

Shame speedrunners don't play that version because of a long, unskippable cutscene...

Or maybe they don't play it because......(whispers) the HD remake doesn't exist.(/whispers)

I know, I know. I'm crying too.

It's a bug in Goldeneye that evolved into a feature in Perfect Dark. Perfect Dark added sprinting, though, to make the target mission times more accessible.

I'm a little bit confused by this. How was sprinting "added" to PD when Goldeneye basically had sprinting when the player strafed with the C buttons and PD's sprinting worked much in the same way? Am I missing something here?

Or did you mean that Rare didn't officially consider it a feature in GE but then they went on to do so in PD?
 

Deleted member 2171

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,731
Or maybe they don't play it because......(whispers) the HD remake doesn't exist.(/whispers)

I know, I know. I'm crying too.



I'm a little bit confused by this. How was sprinting "added" to PD when Goldeneye basically had sprinting when the player strafed with the C buttons and when PD's sprinting worked much in the same way? Am I missing something here?

Perfect Dark added an actual sprint that happens after you run forward with the stick all the way after a bit; it goes exactly as fast as strafe running does. You don't need to strafe run to activate it.

It made top speed more accessible, strafe running just lets you do it from a dead start.

I didn't even know the built-in sprint existed until the XBLA re-release because of it's botched controls at launch that I couldn't do straferunning in, and someone pointed out to me that the game lets you sprint by just holding down a movement direction for a bit. Went back and tested it on N64 and yep it was in the original.

Also, fun fact: you can strafe run in Halo 3, when holding a turret. They fixed it for Halo Reach onwards.
 

chrominance

Sky Van Gogh
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,641
This exact mechanic exists in Descent, except along three axes instead of two, which ends up making it even more effective of a speed boost. Trichording is so common to non-speedrunners in the Descent games that games made decades later that were inspired by Descent not only include this glitch but turn it into an explicit mechanic.

The irony is that if you ignore trichording, Descent only has one exploit that involves freezing a boss. There's no clipping out of bounds or unintended level warps or anything like that. So Descent is actually fairly immune to what most people would consider glitches, and the biggest "glitch" it has is used so widely that to tell people not to use it would almost be like telling them to unlearn parts of the game.
 

daTRUballin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,139
Portland, Oregon
Perfect Dark added an actual sprint that happens after you run forward with the stick all the way after a bit; it goes exactly as fast as strafe running does. You don't need to strafe run to activate it.

It made top speed more accessible, strafe running just lets you do it from a dead start.

I didn't even know the built-in sprint existed until the XBLA re-release because of it's botched controls at launch that I couldn't do straferunning in, and someone pointed out to me that the game lets you sprint by just holding down a movement direction for a bit. Went back and tested it on N64 and yep it was in the original.

Also, fun fact: you can strafe run in Halo 3, when holding a turret. They fixed it for Halo Reach onwards.

Oh, I know exactly what you're talking about. But didn't Goldeneye have the exact same thing or am I just crazy? Someone wanna test Goldeneye out? Lol
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,721
It is certainly a glitch/exploit, but it would likely be allowed in a "glitchless" speedrun...

... this is why most speedrun communities prefer the term "no major glitches" to "glitchless". It's all arbirtrary of course, but it makes a distinction between minor time saving exploits and massive game breaking glitches (like clipping through walls to go out of bounds).