Is the fact you move faster in Goldeneye by strafing and moving forward at the same time a "glitch"?

Stopdoor · Apr 10, 2019

Sometimes I see people have this argument about how "glitchless" speedruns should be a thing, but being a programmer (though not really a game programmer) I kind of find this hard to fathom. It seems to me like it would be incredibly easy to introduce glitches into a game that aren't your obvious "warp 1000 feet in 2 seconds by clipping into a wall", and maybe even be adopted by the majority of your players without them even noticing it's a "glitch", something of unintended design. Maybe it's for the worse, maybe it's for the better, but defining a glitch seems difficult.

Goldeneye has this technique that's incredibly easy to pick up for casual players: https://speedrunwiki.com/Speed_strafing , but I kind of question if it's really "intentional" game design. It doesn't really make sense that moving diagonally would make you move faster - it's just an adverse effect of two mechanics unintentionally intertwining. According to that article it's not something present in Timesplitters, so they must've decided at some point it was worth fixing.

Do you think that's a glitch? Do you have some hard-line criteria of what's a "real" glitch that could be applied rigorously to speedruns? I assume due to Goldeneye's nature of having time-based secret cheat codes, that the designers must've noticed this and left it in - is it still a glitch if it's unintentional design but left as is? Is being a glitch entirely dependent on design intention?

disgraciau · Apr 10, 2019

System Shock 2 and Turok have this same technique, but i don't think it's a glitch. Weird, maybe, but not a glitch.

Chacranajxy · Apr 10, 2019

That's how walking in real life works, so no.

Stopdoor · Apr 10, 2019

Chacranajxy said:
That's how walking in real life works, so no.

What, really? Am I learning a real lifehack right now??

Ferrio · Apr 10, 2019

Strafe jumping in Quake as well does the same thing. Not a glitch, just using game mechanics in unintended ways.

Used to practice those exact same jumps all the time.

QuantumZebra · Apr 10, 2019

disgraciau said:
System Shock 2 and Turok have this same technique, but i don't think it's a glitch. Weird, maybe, but not a glitch.

Yup. Same in EverQuest. Strafe-running is a time honored means of escape.

catswaller · Apr 10, 2019

Speedrun communities usually determine what is or isnt a glitch case by case, by game.

In goldeneyes case, that "glitch" is a consequence of the way the movement code is written, and it was a known quantity in several existing games (with i believe a known solution? I wasnt a gamedev back then but id be surprised to learn that a solution hadnt been figured out, the cause and its alternatives are pretty self evident) so i think it strains credibility to call it a bug instead of an intentional omission in realism.

SirKai · Apr 10, 2019

Deus Ex: Human Revolution was like this too, at launch, but it was patched out.

Kitschy Kitty · Apr 10, 2019

Reminds me of that AGDQ run where the guy is getting roasted for his glitchless speedrun that seems to use a lot of things that should be considered glitches

Deleted member 8593 · Apr 10, 2019

Chacranajxy said:
That's how walking in real life works, so no.

Damn, Usain Bolt looks really silly right now.

Stopdoor · Apr 10, 2019

I also kind of think of how BotW had that "whistle-running" glitch that let you mash the whistle button and avoid depleting your stamina while running - is that "using a game mechanic in unintended ways"? Seems a bit more dubious than even this Goldeneye thing.

Chacranajxy · Apr 10, 2019

Dardan Sandiego said:
Damn, Usain Bolt looks really silly right now.

I'm sayin'

ThereAreFourNaan · Apr 10, 2019

At first glance it doesn't strike me as unusual that diagonal movement is faster since that's a fairly common side effect of naive square grid movement. Super duper common in non hex based strategy games for instance, you move at Sqrt(2) in a diagonal vector but only 1 in an up/down/left/right vector.

It is unintentional but classifying it as a glitch for speed run purposes would mean to achieve glitchless runs you would have to purposefully handicap yourself to never use diagonals even accidentally lest you violate the rules. There is no trick needed to activate it, it's a normal part of movement intended by the designers and I would consider it on par with link backflips on zelda being faster than walking.

Kurdel · Apr 10, 2019

No.

It's possibly an unintended thing, but that doesn't qualify as "glitch".

Laser Man · Apr 10, 2019

It's also in TimeSplitter2 I think!

dom · Apr 10, 2019

I don't think it's a glitch. Just an oversight. Let's say you can move forward at 1 m/s and can strafe at 1 m/s. Now you move diagonally. Now you're both moving forward 1 m and either left/right 1 m in that second which creates a triangle and your actual move speed is the hypotenuse.

Stopdoor · Apr 10, 2019

Kitschy Kitty said:
Reminds me of that AGDQ run where the guy is getting roasted for his glitchless speedrun that seems to use a lot of things that should be considered glitches

Haha, this video is brutal. From both ends.

DeckardWintermute · Apr 10, 2019

If you have to ask you'll never get a 1:12, baby.

Stopdoor · Apr 10, 2019

Kurdel said:
No.

It's possibly an unintended thing, but that doesn't qualify as "glitch".

domthybomb said:
I don't think it's a glitch. Just an oversight. Let's say you can move forward at 1 m/s and can strafe at 1 m/s. Now you move diagonally. Now you're both moving forward 1 m and either left/right 1 m in that second which creates a triangle and your actual move speed is the hypotenuse.

Called "unintended things" and "oversights" as "not glitches" seems weird to me. Like uh, what "is" a glitch then?

Hentailover · Apr 10, 2019

Yes, which is why, if you use it, you cheated not only the game, but yourself. You didn't grow. You didn't improve. You took a shortcut and gained nothing. You experienced a hollow victory. Nothing was risked and nothing was gained. It's sad that you don't know the difference.

ss_lemonade · Apr 10, 2019

I don't know about it being considered a glitch but I remember using it a lot to beat all the higher difficulty challenges. Don't even remember reading about it anywhere. I just realized that it made me move faster

antitrop · Apr 10, 2019

Kitschy Kitty said:
Reminds me of that AGDQ run where the guy is getting roasted for his glitchless speedrun that seems to use a lot of things that should be considered glitches

wtf, this plays out like a scripted comedy routine

EDIT: Oh, because it is

DeckardWintermute · Apr 10, 2019

Kitschy Kitty said:
Reminds me of that AGDQ run where the guy is getting roasted for his glitchless speedrun that seems to use a lot of things that should be considered glitches

That video is BRUTAL, I've somehow never watched it before and I thought I had seen most of the real wild GDQ videos.

Kurdel · Apr 10, 2019

Stopdoor said:
Called "unintended things" and "oversights" as "not glitches" seems weird to me. Like uh, what "is" a glitch then?

I am sure there is a good definition out there, but to me it's a unforseen technical error, instead of unexpected feature?

I know this is some really dumb rat fucking semantics, but that is how I see it!

collige · Apr 10, 2019

The concept of a "glitchless" run is completely subjective and arbitrary unless a dev comes in and explicitly says that something wasn't intended. It makes far more sense to just ban individual techniques on a per-game basis.

Stopdoor · Apr 10, 2019

Kurdel said:
I am sure there is a good definition out there, but to me it's a unforseen technical error, instead of unexpected feature?

I know this is some really dumb rat fucking semantics, but that is how I see it!

It's possible the devs could see it as an unforeseen technical error though - only the users might define it as a "feature". Only the devs really know what a technical error is.

Yeah, it's messy, but that's my point I guess.

TheZynster · Apr 10, 2019

Kitschy Kitty said:
Reminds me of that AGDQ run where the guy is getting roasted for his glitchless speedrun that seems to use a lot of things that should be considered glitches

lol, damn was this brutal to watch. But the kid running does have a lot of stuff that sound like they are not intended to be skipped or used without it considered a glitch. But I'm pretty sure AGDQ has categories on what cannot and can be used for a "glitchless" run

Laser Man · Apr 10, 2019

I think it's always about buffering/storing speed by exploiting how the game manages player movement on specific surfaces and such.

The craziest I have ever seen is the Wind Waker speedrun where the game is played without getting the boat and instead the player just zipps across the ocean in seconds.

Siggy · Apr 10, 2019

Speedrun categories are community-decided. Even if the increased speed was technically a glitch, and I'm not saying it is, the community could simply decide that it's allowed in a "glitchless" category. Those categories usually get made once certain glitches drastically change runs and runners still want to compete under the old conditions for whatever reason. It might me a misnomer, but as long as everyone's on the same page: who cares (besides pedants.) Natural language, kids.

spam musubi · Apr 10, 2019

That Mirrors Edge "glitchless" run thing is an inside joke between the two dudes.

jroc74 · Apr 10, 2019

Hentailover said:
Yes, which is why, if you use it, you cheated not only the game, but yourself. You didn't grow. You didn't improve. You took a shortcut and gained nothing. You experienced a hollow victory. Nothing was risked and nothing was gained. It's sad that you don't know the difference.

I wasn't prepared for this....

Deleted member 17952 · Apr 10, 2019

Glitch? No.

Bad programming? Yes.

Stopdoor · Apr 10, 2019

Aries Zeigald said:
Glitch? No.

Bad programming? Yes.

I can't tell if this is tongue in cheek.

jroc74 · Apr 10, 2019

DeckardWintermute said:
If you have to ask you'll never get a 1:12, baby.

This thread is delivering...omg.

dark494 · Apr 10, 2019

Stopdoor said:
It's possible the devs could see it as an unforeseen technical error though - only the users might define it as a "feature". Only the devs really know what a technical error is.

Yeah, it's messy, but that's my point I guess.

I think generally speaking, most glitches are considered as such if they tend to break the boundaries of what is intended in normal play, such as going out of bounds or wrong warps or sequence breaking or item duping etc. Being able to move faster by simply moving forward and sideways at the same time, because vector math is hard to program back in the day, isn't unintended, the effect of higher speed is but the ability to do so is not.

Deleted member 17952 · Apr 10, 2019

Stopdoor said:
I can't tell if this is tongue in cheek.

If an avatar moves faster when traveling diagonally than when traveling perpendicularly, that means the programmer is applying acceleration/velocity to an axis when a direction button is held, instead of using a vector and applying constant acceleration/velocity to it.

Deleted member 2620 · Apr 10, 2019

Stopdoor said:
I can't tell if this is tongue in cheek.

lol, same.

But yeah, "glitch" becomes hard to meaningfully define in this context, so I read "glitchless" as shorthand for having an agreed-on banned list of techniques, basically.

Version 3.0 · Apr 10, 2019

A LOT of games have the same movement, where diagonal is slightly faster than straight line. I wouldn't call it a glitch any more than I'd call the distortion of looking around in many early 3D engines a glitch. It's just how the engine works. Did they mean for you to move faster diagonally? Maybe not. But it's not the code working incorrectly.

xillyriax · Apr 10, 2019

Glitch? no
A bug? up to the devs discretion

Stopdoor · Apr 10, 2019

dark494 said:
I think generally speaking, most glitches are considered as such if they tend to break the boundaries of what is intended in normal play, such as going out of bounds or wrong warps or sequence breaking or item duping etc. Being able to move faster by simply moving forward and sideways at the same time, because vector math is hard to program back in the day, isn't unintended, the effect of higher speed is but the ability to do so is not.

Aries Zeigald said:
If an avatar moves faster when traveling diagonally than when traveling perpendicularly, that means the programmer is applying acceleration/velocity to an axis when a direction button is held, instead of using a vector and applying constant acceleration/velocity to it.

How about the Breath of the Wild whistle-running technique then, where stamina-depletion is paused while whistling? Is that not "unintended"? What makes it much different really?

Stopdoor · Apr 10, 2019

xillyriax said:
Glitch? no
A bug? up to the devs discretion

Coming from a programming perspective, I'm not sure anyone could define to you the difference between a glitch and a bug.

Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glitch It's kind of funny reading Wikipedia's page on it, it gives some vague difference in definition, but the Video Game section immediately writes about "glitches/bugs" and uses them interchangeably a few times.

Deleted member 17952 · Apr 10, 2019

Stopdoor said:
How about the Breath of the Wild whistle-running technique then, where stamina-depletion is paused while whistling? Is that not "unintended"? What makes it much different really?

In the case of whistle-running, it's most likely a bug (it's hard to account for all variables; it's the QAs job to catch that). For the strafing thing, the programmer intentionally programmed it that way.

Madao · Apr 10, 2019

this kind of movement oddity isn't really considered a glitch. you're just moving more efficiently in how the game's engine lets you move.

see also running backwards in the N64 Zelda games or pressing the L or R buttons during a jump in Metroid Prime (pressing these buttons at certain moments extends your jump length by significant amounts and does actually cause some sequence breaks by letting you reach some places earlier but it's still not considered a glitch)

Stopdoor · Apr 10, 2019

Madao said:
this kind of movement oddity isn't really considered a glitch. you're just moving more efficiently in how the game's engine lets you move.

see also running backwards in the N64 Zelda games or pressing the L or R buttons during a jump in Metroid Prime (pressing these buttons at certain moments extends your jump length by significant amounts and does actually cause some sequence breaks by letting you reach some places earlier but it's still not considered a glitch)

This seems like a weirdly stretched definition of "not a glitch", really. Clipping through walls is just moving how the game's engine lets you move, really.

Deleted member 41520 · Apr 10, 2019

Hentailover said:
Yes, which is why, if you use it, you cheated not only the game, but yourself. You didn't grow. You didn't improve. You took a shortcut and gained nothing. You experienced a hollow victory. Nothing was risked and nothing was gained. It's sad that you don't know the difference.

somehow this still gets

Conkerkid11 · Apr 10, 2019

xillyriax said:
Glitch? no
A bug? up to the devs discretion

What in tarnation

dark494 · Apr 10, 2019

Stopdoor said:
How about the Breath of the Wild whistle-running technique then, where stamina-depletion is paused while whistling? Is that not "unintended"? What makes it much different really?

I don't know what that speedrun community officially considers it, but that's an unintended side-effect of bad code since the game checks if you can sprint after it lets you start sprinting instead of before. It still plays into having the ability to whistle and press B, which is not unintentional per-se, but that it gives you a temporary speed boost is.

Madao · Apr 10, 2019

Stopdoor said:
This seems like a weirdly stretched definition of "not a glitch", really. Clipping through walls is just moving how the game's engine lets you move, really.

well, the alternative is that a glitchless run of Metroid Prime is impossible because pressing the L or R button means you do a glitch every time.

there's a reason glitchless rulesets have several rules. for prime, they'd ban clipping out of bounds as one of the safeguards to prevent people from doing what you listed.

Oscillator · Apr 10, 2019

If it wasn't intentionally programmed, then it's a glitch.

A better question to ask is, is it an exploit ? As in, something that gives you an unfair advantage?

If you're trying to play the game fast, which is required by design to unlock the cheats, it's trickier to not input a diagonal. Therefore, the advantage is not unfair.

Cranster · Apr 10, 2019

Kurdel said:
No.

It's possibly an unintended thing, but that doesn't qualify as "glitch".

That does actually make it a glitch.

Is the fact you move faster in Goldeneye by strafing and moving forward at the same time a "glitch"?

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