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How do you feel?

  • Effective

    Votes: 279 51.8%
  • Exploitative

    Votes: 121 22.4%
  • Both

    Votes: 139 25.8%

  • Total voters
    539
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Squishy3

Member
Oct 27, 2017
811
Exploitation of violence is definitely a thing. But I don't think it applies to TLOU2.
In terms of its current marketing so far, I think this would fall under exploitation of violence.

There's no juxtaposition to it aside from what we've seen in the trailers, with characters we have no attachment to aside from Ellie from the previous game, but we have no attachment to TLOU2 Ellie as a character because we've only seen a small amount of her from TLOU2. That will probably be delivered in the game, but right now it's violence we have very little context for.

You can look at the recent Wolfenstein games as an example of how the juxtaposition and context is important, when the game regularly has you dismembering Nazis through the course of regular gameplay with grenades, hatchets, shotguns, etc. which you can classify as exploitation of violence but in an extremely ludicrous way and not trying to treat it with any gravitas. Thus the juxtaposition of when they use up-close and intimate violence with gravitas the impact is even greater regardless of if its BJ doing it or the Nazis doing it you feel disgusted, because its so rarely used in that fashion throughout the game despite ultra violence being present 100% of the time.

In TLOU2 if the intimacy of the violence showcased in the trailers is a regular occurrence throughout the entire game some people will likely be desensitized by the end of the game, despite going "that's gross and makes me uncomfortable" at the start of the game.
 
Oct 28, 2017
8,071
2001
If the violence in this game is upsetting ppl now, they should have seen the stuff manhunt from rockstar was letting you do or see happen in those games.


And those games came out 12-16 years ago.

Here's one gif as an example.

ReasonableJampackedAsianconstablebutterfly-max-1mb.gif


After decapitation, you could collect the head and later use it as a distraction device. Pretty sick stuff.
 

Bossking

Member
Nov 20, 2017
1,430
Don't just say these things without double-checking or doing a sense check. Even when framed in a questioning manner, saying stuff like this carelessly is poor in taste.

In doing a google check - the one time this was mentioned was here, in the Kotaku interview:
kotaku.com

We Talked To The Last Of Us Part II's Director About The Game's Violence (And More Treacherous Stealth)

LOS ANGELES—Neil Druckmann, creative director on the The Last of Us Part II, was nervous going into E3.

I muat have been mixing it up with the stories from the Mortal Kombat developer stories, and for that I apologize. But I do still think the level of violence is way tol high, and comparing it to the GTA3 models in Manhunt isn't really quite the same considering the level of graphic detail on display.
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
It's not at all torture porn, it's just showing realistic body damage in a game, which Is what i've wanted for a while.

Seeing that one enemy get shot in the face, leaving a bullet hole and a plume of blood was amazing on a technical/animation level.
 

xendless

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Jan 23, 2019
10,670
If the violence in this game is upsetting ppl now, they should have seen the stuff manhunt from rockstar was letting you do or see happen in those games.


And those games came out 12-16 years ago.

Here's one gif as an example.

ReasonableJampackedAsianconstablebutterfly-max-1mb.gif


After decapitation, you could collect the head and later use it as a distraction device. Pretty sick stuff.

I remember Manhunt being way more censored by static effects than this
Is this a mod or is it different depending on the territory?
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
Hum, The Road doesn't have a lot of violence happening in it, the world is shown to be horrifyingly violent and inhumane but violence does not happen with any real frequency, and when it happens it's characters being put in a place where violence is the only way out. That's not how it works in games like TLOU, the world is a violent place but whereas in The Road the violence was often a momentary need to participate in the horror of the past apocalypse, in TLOU the violence is quotidian and, in practice, takes precedence over every other aspect of the character's lives and, in gameplay, is the really the only thing you can do.
This is a good and nuanced take which is being sadly overwhelmed by all the "what do you expect?" style posts.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
The only one that bothered me was the trailer showing a bunch of characters we've never seen before being brutalized. What was the point of that other than the redundant setting of a grim tone we had already come to expect?
Yeah I agree with this, in order to make that kind of violence meaningful the audience needs to have some form of connection to and understanding of the characters. But that trailer has none of that so it ends up seeming a bit gratuitous.
 

NightShift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,027
Australia
I'm 90% sure the uncomfortable level of violence is intentional and will make sense in the story. I don't think the promotional material is being deceptive at all.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
I'm 90% sure the uncomfortable level of violence is intentional and will make sense in the story. I don't think the promotional material is being deceptive at all.
The promo material doesn't have to be deceptive in order to be exploitative. In fact I think the promo material can be exploitative even if the game itself is not. A perfect example is showing characters the audience knows nothing about being brutalized for like 10 minutes. I'm sure in the context of the game it makes more sense but as a trailer it was kind of uncomfortable.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,398
Melbourne, Australia
I have zero problem with what we've seen of TLoU2 so far but I do think that that infamous violent cutscene from a couple of years ago was an odd choice for marketing the game. I have total faith that scenes like that will be appropriate in the game, but it does come across a bit exploitative when the scene is being used purely to market the game.

Last year's E3 presentation was loads better, the cutscene was incredible, it looked visually amazing and felt really well-acted and showing this community just being people trying to have fun while also experiencing the usual day-to-day drama of relationships served as a great contrast to what we'd already seen and the gameplay they showed.

Also lol@"extreme sensual" what?
 
Last edited:

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,595
Hum, The Road doesn't have a lot of violence happening in it, the world is shown to be horrifyingly violent and inhumane but violence does not happen with any real frequency, and when it happens it's characters being put in a place where violence is the only way out. That's not how it works in games like TLOU, the world is a violent place but whereas in The Road the violence was often a momentary need to participate in the horror of the past apocalypse, in TLOU the violence is quotidian and, in practice, takes precedence over every other aspect of the character's lives and, in gameplay, is the really the only thing you can do.
Thank you. The Road is not like TLOU.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,398
Melbourne, Australia
If the violence in this game is upsetting ppl now, they should have seen the stuff manhunt from rockstar was letting you do or see happen in those games.


And those games came out 12-16 years ago.

Here's one gif as an example.

ReasonableJampackedAsianconstablebutterfly-max-1mb.gif


After decapitation, you could collect the head and later use it as a distraction device. Pretty sick stuff.
I'm not sure what point you're making? People know about Manhunt and it was controversial for its exploitative violence (which is totally what it was going for). It's not like the game came and went without anyone saying anything about it.
 

pikachief

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,526
The violence in TLOU seems to be purposefully disturbing. Whivh good job, I'm thoroughly disturbed and dont have much interest in it now lol
 

monketron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,859
I mean the game is set in a grim post-apocalyptic world, where society as we know it has pretty much ended. It would be a brutal place for a kid to grow up in, and the brutality of that world or how it would affect her psyche as a young adult shouldn't be shied away from.
 
This argument is just not it in my opinion.... like the first game was pretty violent and nobody said anything about it being exploitative? What about shows like the walking dead that feature characters getting thier heads smashed in? Like I really don't see why this game can't be brutal? Why is it such a problem when movies and tv series have done it for eons?
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
"Kissing is not sensual".
"Violence has never been used in an exploitative manner".
"TLOU is about pushing the limits of sadistic violence".

This thread sure has some weird takes...

If the violence in this game is upsetting ppl now, they should have seen the stuff manhunt from rockstar was letting you do or see happen in those games.


And those games came out 12-16 years ago.

Here's one gif as an example.

ReasonableJampackedAsianconstablebutterfly-max-1mb.gif


After decapitation, you could collect the head and later use it as a distraction device. Pretty sick stuff.

Have you somehow missed that modern Mortal Kombat games are a thing?
 

trappedinsap

Member
Jul 26, 2019
472
If the violence in this game is upsetting ppl now, they should have seen the stuff manhunt from rockstar was letting you do or see happen in those games.


And those games came out 12-16 years ago.

Here's one gif as an example.

ReasonableJampackedAsianconstablebutterfly-max-1mb.gif


After decapitation, you could collect the head and later use it as a distraction device. Pretty sick stuff.
And they created one of the most over the top, violent, and immersive games of all time, with media commentary built in. A masterpiece of a game.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,398
Melbourne, Australia
"Kissing is not sensual".
"Violence has never been used in an exploitative manner".
"TLOU is about pushing the limits of sadistic violence".

This thread sure has some weird takes...
Two characters kissing might be sensual but it isn't "extreme sensual exploitation". The violence I totally get the debate about but complaining about that ballroom scene? Feels like drumming up controversy for controversy's sake.
 

Callibretto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,493
Indonesia
The promo material doesn't have to be deceptive in order to be exploitative. In fact I think the promo material can be exploitative even if the game itself is not. A perfect example is showing characters the audience knows nothing about being brutalized for like 10 minutes. I'm sure in the context of the game it makes more sense but as a trailer it was kind of uncomfortable.
I don't get it, why is it bad that we know nothing about the character that is brutalized on screen? the girl who got her arm broken is clearly an important character that we will get to know more of in the game. if this tlou2 has been a new IP, is it not okay to show any violence since we haven't know any of the character yet?

also imo, the arm breaking scene and later in gameplay walk through where Ellie see someone hanged and got his stomach cut open serve a purpose to show how brutal these cults are, raising the stake if Ellie got caught by them.
 

NightShift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,027
Australia
The promo material doesn't have to be deceptive in order to be exploitative. In fact I think the promo material can be exploitative even if the game itself is not. A perfect example is showing characters the audience knows nothing about being brutalized for like 10 minutes. I'm sure in the context of the game it makes more sense but as a trailer it was kind of uncomfortable.
In that case I don't know why the promotional material being exploitative is a problem. Surely everybody knows that trailers love taking particularly impactful scenes out of context by now.
 

kamineko

Linked the Fire
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,528
Accardi-by-the-Sea
Hey why are you trashing my favorite shit tc

Jk, it's worth thinking about. The first game got to have it both ways with it's ambiguous ending (which people still argue about). Violence was both brutal and effective, but effective at what?

We'll have to see what happens this time. I actually don't know how it'll turn out. Loved og TLOU's story and never really got numb to the choke outs (excepted on grounded where it's hard to see past the systems). Had a very different time with Uncharted 4, whose story disappointed me despite its technical wizardry.

It's interesting to consider, too, what details are featured in promotional artwork and trailers because I suppose they are an indicator of what publishers think audiences care about, who they are. For a game that costs this much, such decisions are presumably made with care.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
I don't get it, why is it bad that we know nothing about the character that is brutalized on screen? the girl who got her arm broken is clearly an important character that we will get to know more of in the game. if this tlou2 has been a new IP, is it not okay to show any violence since we haven't know any of the character yet?

also imo, the arm breaking scene and later in gameplay walk through where Ellie see someone hanged and got his stomach cut open serve a purpose to show how brutal these cults are, raising the stake if Ellie got caught by them.
Who said it's not OK? I'm just saying that's why it feels exploitative, because it's extreme violence taken out of context. You can establish characters in a trailer, the original TLOU trailers did a bit of that.
In that case I don't know why the promotional material being exploitative is a problem. Surely everybody knows that trailers love taking particularly impactful scenes out of context by now.
I'm saying that's part of what leads to it feeling exploitative. Never said it was a 'problem' necessarily, though they could just...choose not to use the out of context extreme violence as marketing material. I'd argue it lessens the impact of said scenes if they get bandied about as promos without context rather than them serving as shocking, heart-wrenching scenes in the game itself that are new to the player.

Unless the scenes they've used in trailers aren't actually in game, in which case that would make them feel even more exploitative.
 

Jake_brake

Member
Sep 13, 2018
364
Its bigger than the violence. Always has been, you'll see how it plays a major role.

This is an evolution of Ellie. A sad one. No longer is she a fairly innocent, 14 year old foul mouth. She is a ruthless, straight up killer. Quite the toll I imagine on the psyche.

One last thing. Yes, it being more realistic, quite possibly the most realistic violence games have seen yet, is a factor for people. But again, beyond the sheer violent nature of it all, there will be the context behind it.

Pull ZERO punches ND. Tell your story
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
Yep, that was a hard day, to be honest. I really wanted to play DBH until I started to see how it was developing and I eventually just chose to skip it entirely. I'm not sure yet with TLOU2. I'm an outlier and I don't love the first. I don't think it's nearly as deep or meaningful as many like to say and I found the gameplay largely repetitive. This one looks like it may actually be a better narrative experience, but after some of the footage, I'm really torn.

That something makes sense doesn't make it any more or less fitting; there are still choices to be made about focus and depiction. For instance, the film Irreversible goes too far in a number of places, though everything that happens makes sense. It's a good film but never something I'd watch again. That same kind of intensity spread out over hours and hours is... difficult to consider.

On one hand, DBH is so hamfisted and poorly written that that particular aspect of the game barely had any impact on me, on the other hand you didn't really miss much by skipping it anyway :D

I'm hopeful about TLoU because ND is usually very consistent on managing the tone of their games. And i kinda adored the first game, warts and all. The characters are what elevates it beyond the sum of its parts, for me at least.

And since people just love to compare it to The Road, i'll straight up say that i enjoyed TLoU much more. The Road didn't do much for me tbh.
 

Nightengale

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,708
Malaysia
I muat have been mixing it up with the stories from the Mortal Kombat developer stories, and for that I apologize. But I do still think the level of violence is way tol high, and comparing it to the GTA3 models in Manhunt isn't really quite the same considering the level of graphic detail on display.

No problem. I have no other issues with the overall criticism aside from that first sentence. In regards to the level of graphical depiction of violence, based off the trailers so far - I find it acceptable for me personally, but I get where it crosses a line for many people.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,601
Don't just say these things without double-checking or doing a sense check. Even when framed in a questioning manner, saying stuff like this carelessly is poor in taste.

In doing a google check - the one time this was mentioned was here, in the Kotaku interview:
kotaku.com

We Talked To The Last Of Us Part II's Director About The Game's Violence (And More Treacherous Stealth)

LOS ANGELES—Neil Druckmann, creative director on the The Last of Us Part II, was nervous going into E3.

That's a great interview, thanks for sharing.
 

VanDoughnut

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,424
I think the violence just needs to be this intense in order for you to buy into the world. It helps you understand where the characters are coming from.

Well I also give ND the benefit of the doubt since the original LOU and Left Behind, was just great storytelling and wasn't just cynically a gore fest. There were beautiful moments in all that chaos; so even if the tone is darker and the theme is revenge I think ND will still deliver something special.
 

Jake_brake

Member
Sep 13, 2018
364
Oh also wanna throw it out there, those articles done by IGN, Kotaku, etc after the PGW trailer were pretty laughable. All opinion pieces I get it, but their points being made on the notion they felt it lacked the context for it?

But it did develop strong emotions in people. So it did its job in my mind. Loved it.
 
Aug 31, 2019
421
It's effective enough in the sense that the trailer dismissed any intent of mine in playing this game. I don't like being exposed to this kind of realistic and brutal violence. That said, I think it will serve well to raise the testosterone of my fellow gamers to make them happy.
 

Lady Gaia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,479
Seattle
If the game is going to have something to say about revenge and how it twists an individual, which seems likely, then what they've shown so far could well fit into a really well crafted story with some depth and impact on the subject. Does it? I don't know, and neither does anyone else in the thread, which should at least be acknowledged. Presuming the exploration of violence Is to try to make the player uncomfortable, which is what we've been led to believe, then the promotion should make that clear so a potential customer will know what they're getting into.

I'm prepared to give Naughty Dog the benefit of the doubt on this one. They've shown good judgement and capacity for nuance in the past, which is more than I can say for any number of similarly violent games that don't seem to ruffle feathers in quite the same way.
 

Deleted member 56580

User requested account closure
Banned
May 8, 2019
1,881
its completely unecessary and the fact that the dev team watched actual snuff movies to get the violence right, which in turn is making people aroused about the realism depicted, is quite frankly sickening. Like literally watching real innocent people getting killed to transcribe that in a game


 

xxracerxx

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
31,222
its completely unecessary and the fact that the dev team watched actual snuff movies to get the violence right, which in turn is making people aroused about the realism depicted, is quite frankly sickening. Like literally watching real innocent people getting killed to transcribe that in a game
Where do they say they watched snuff films? This is from that interview:

"We're making a game about the cycle of violence and we're making a statement about violent actions and the impact they have on the character that's committing them and on the people close to them," he said. "And our whole approach is to say, 'We want to treat this as realistically as possible.' When you stab someone—if you watch reference videos, which we have, it's gross and it's messy and it's not sanitized like you see in most movies and games. And we wanted to get the player to feel that."

That doesn't say anything about watching murder porn.
 

Deleted member 56580

User requested account closure
Banned
May 8, 2019
1,881
Where do they say they watched snuff films? This is from that interview:

"We're making a game about the cycle of violence and we're making a statement about violent actions and the impact they have on the character that's committing them and on the people close to them," he said. "And our whole approach is to say, 'We want to treat this as realistically as possible.' When you stab someone—if you watch reference videos, which we have, it's gross and it's messy and it's not sanitized like you see in most movies and games. And we wanted to get the player to feel that."

That doesn't say anything about watching murder porn.

In which kind of movies do you watch clear, realistic views of people being stabbed, between other things

Go on im curious. Not being sarcastic or dismissive


edit : "its not sanitized like you see in most movies and games"

that alone, lol
 

Mobu

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
5,932
The marketing is definitely being exploitative but i dont think the game itself will be
 

radiotoxic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,027
It's effective enough in the sense that the trailer dismissed any intent of mine in playing this game. I don't like being exposed to this kind of realistic and brutal violence. That said, I think it will serve well to raise the testosterone of my fellow gamers to make them happy.
What is this bullshit? Kinda like the inverse of "x platform is for kids", but this is supposed to be ok somehow?
 

xxracerxx

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
31,222
In which kind of movies do you watch clear, realistic views of people being stabbed, between other things

Go on im curious. Not being sarcastic or dismissive
Have you not seen footage from protests where people get injured from clashes with Proud Boys? You seem to think ND have crystal clear video of a person stabbing someone, that is not what they said.
 
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