Is Super Mario Maker (1 & 2) affecting the original nature of the 2D Super Mario levels?

[lunanto]

I had this thought while playing story mode. I do get they are created to showcase all the tools at your disposal to create a level, but in the end, they are a burst of original and creative ideas or mechanics (maybe one) packed in just one relatively short level.

I have detected this very same trend in many of the levels created by the community. Myself, conciously or not, when creating I try to add two or three interesting ideas to my level, to make the player feel something o got them surprised. In general, I feel satisfied with the results, but I do recognize that they don´t have nothing to do with the longer and more "elaborate" (in an old-fashioned way here) classic 2D Mario levels.

I wonder if this two games are enough to transform the classic creative vision of the 2D Super Mario levels from a design standpoint. Do you think that, given the case, if Nintendo releases in the future a new 2D Mario game, apart from the Maker subseries, its levels will be influentiated by the new "design principles" raised by the Maker games?

I think this is a very interesting topic. Thanks for participating.

 

[banter]

No, I don't think a new 2D Mario will take the same design philosophy and that's exactly why they are comfortable with having Mario Maker alongside other 2D Mario games. You get different things from them and that's the point.

 

[sambills]

no because i doubt the actual mario creators go into level creation with the mindset of "lets make this as fucked up as possible" like i do

 

[justiceiro]

Official made mario 2d levels are extremely overrated, Mario maker made it clear that there's tons of untaped potential in the base mechanics, but Nintendo don't really use it to the fullest.

However, I don't see it influencing Nintendo as fans keep shouting how good they are, when actually they aren't.

 

[Deleted member 873]

Official made mario 2d levels are extremely overrated

Click to shrink...

Excuse me? These games are the ones that led to Mario Maker in the first place. Lmao.

Anyway, back in topic, yes, I do. Playing something like NSMBUD and then MM2's story mode is weird. I love to see elaborate courses, but they are only a few so far - and only made by the community. The Nintendo levels were great, but they are not "classic" 2D Mario.

 

[NotLiquid]

The way I see it, both the Mario Makers were made to draw a proverbial line in the sand on the 2D Mario franchise up til this point, celebrating all the advancements made along the way. The only thing the mainline 2D Mario games really had to offer in terms of a unique selling point in a post-MM world was multiplayer, and even that's been squarely dropped into the hands of the users for Mario Maker 2 - with online, no less.

Whatever the next 2D Mario is, I don't think it'll be a part of the "New" series. It'll at the very least be something more unique, I reckon.

 

[WellbornWarrior]

If anything everything coming out of Super Mario Maker shows how 2D Mario level design was and still is a step above everything else. The games being that good is the sole reason Mario is the most iconic videogame figure of all time after all.

 

[Deleted member 21709]

Official made mario 2d levels are extremely overrated, Mario maker made it clear that there's tons of untaped potential in the base mechanics, but Nintendo don't really use it to the fullest.

Click to shrink...

What a weird, loaded statement to make.

 

[Deleted member 873]

BTW, something that I feel is coming is that SMM2 levels will be better than 1's. Both Endless runs and the new stuff make for player having more secrets, routes, less painful gameplay, etc. That's just a theory though. But what I see from the top levels so far is way better than what came in the first one.

 

[Deleted member 33120]

Official made mario 2d levels are extremely overrated, Mario maker made it clear that there's tons of untaped potential in the base mechanics, but Nintendo don't really use it to the fullest.

However, I don't see it influencing Nintendo as fans keep shouting how good they are, when actually they aren't.

Click to shrink...

Give me a break.

 

[Zacmortar]

Excuse me? These games are the ones that led to Mario Maker in the first place. Lmao.

Anyway, back in topic, yes, I do. Playing something like NSMBUD and then MM2's story mode is weird. I love to see elaborate courses, but they are only a few so far - and only made by the community. The Nintendo levels were great, but they are not "classic" 2D Mario.

Click to shrink...

I dont necessarily agree with that post, but just because it came before doesn't mean it's inherently better/good/quality. Many bad/mediocre things lead to great successors.

 

[Ceadeus]

I hope not, I was thinking about it just this morning!

I do hate de kaizo BS, I prefer classic stuff.

 

[Dark1x]

Official made mario 2d levels are extremely overrated, Mario maker made it clear that there's tons of untaped potential in the base mechanics, but Nintendo don't really use it to the fullest.

However, I don't see it influencing Nintendo as fans keep shouting how good they are, when actually they aren't.

Click to shrink...

I don't agree with that at all.

The design is very well thought out and perfectly paced.

 

[Phendrift]

The way I see it, both the Mario Makers were made to draw a proverbial line in the sand on the 2D Mario franchise up til this point, celebrating all the advancements made along the way. The only thing the mainline 2D Mario games really had to offer in terms of a unique selling point in a post-MM world was multiplayer, and even that's been squarely dropped into the hands of the users for Mario Maker 2 - with online, no less.

Whatever the next 2D Mario is, I don't think it'll be a part of the "New" series. It'll at the very least be something more unique, I reckon.

Click to shrink...

Yup, I think they're using MM to close a chapter. Next 2D Mario will be pretty different I reckon. New art style, themes and mechanics that MM can't cover I'd guess

 

[Porco Rosso]

I'm thinking the next 2D Mario will have a unique art style and some small gimmick to differentiate it from the Mario Maker styles and levels. I think NSMB is done so it really is the only way forward

The way I see it, both the Mario Makers were made to draw a proverbial line in the sand on the 2D Mario franchise up til this point, celebrating all the advancements made along the way. The only thing the mainline 2D Mario games really had to offer in terms of a unique selling point in a post-MM world was multiplayer, and even that's been squarely dropped into the hands of the users for Mario Maker 2 - with online, no less.

Whatever the next 2D Mario is, I don't think it'll be a part of the "New" series. It'll at the very least be something more unique, I reckon.

Click to shrink...

Great minds think alike!

 

[Mr.Fletcher]

I much prefer the short, bite-sized levels, with varying completion goals we see in SMM2 to the usual 2D Mario fare.

The latter has become painfully dull to me.

Some of the Nintendo-made levels in SMM2 are just fantastic. Complete a level without jumping, complete a level without being grabbed by the claws, ride a dry bones' shell on a wave of acid without being squashed, etc. While the levels lack the length of traditional 2D Mario, they feel more inspired to me. Some of the puzzle-style levels are pure class.

I also prefer the tone of SMM2. I love watching Mario interact with a dancing frog, a talking dog, an eraser and so on. There's just a silly irreverence to SMM2 that's so charming.

I would like to see a future 2D Mario mix the traditional A to B style levels with some of these more 'gimmicky' levels.

Yes, 2D Mario introduces ideas and then successfully builds on them throughout a level, but there's more immediacy in SMM2.

It feels a little bit like 3D Mario to me. Nintendo will introduce a really cool idea and then totally shift gears for the next challenge.

 

[Molten_]

However, I don't see it influencing Nintendo as fans keep shouting how good they are, when actually they aren't.

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Lol

 

[CthulhuSars]

Official made mario 2d levels are extremely overrated, Mario maker made it clear that there's tons of untaped potential in the base mechanics, but Nintendo don't really use it to the fullest.

However, I don't see it influencing Nintendo as fans keep shouting how good they are, when actually they aren't.

Click to shrink...

Wow what a loaded statement. Base 2d mario levels are a must play, review for level design/game mechanic understanding as an intro to level design for everything.

 

[Boiled Goose]

Official made mario 2d levels are extremely overrated, Mario maker made it clear that there's tons of untaped potential in the base mechanics, but Nintendo don't really use it to the fullest.

However, I don't see it influencing Nintendo as fans keep shouting how good they are, when actually they aren't.

Click to shrink...

In terms of actual platforming level design.. it's hard to argue they aren't good though. Of course that's partially do to amazing controls Nintendo platformers tend to have.

There's plenty of non Nintendo good platformers (meat boy), but the gap with B tier platformers is quite obvious.

 

[hankenta]

Isn't that comment everyone is piling on referring to the official made levels in Super Mario Maker, not Mario games in general?

 

[entremet]

The original MM showed me how hard it was to create these levels. Games like Super Mario Brothers 3, World and NSMBU have a perfect mix of imagination and restraint. The levels are well crafted and it shows once you start playing random MM1 levels.

Still too early to judge the MM community with MM2.

It seemed there was an obsession with Kaizo style stuff in MM1. And that got old quick.

 

[Deleted member 873]

I dont necessarily agree with that post, but just because it came before doesn't mean it's inherently better/good/quality. Many bad/mediocre things lead to great successors.

Click to shrink...

Those games made people want to create their own courses, making hacked roms for decades now. Downplaying how the gameplay has always been there is insane. Mario Maker thrives on the originals' quality.

 

[Porco Rosso]

The original MM showed me how hard it was to create these levels. Games like Super Mario Brothers 3, World and NSMBU have a perfect mix of imagination and restraint. The levels are well crafted and it shows once you start playing random MM1 levels.

Still too early to judge the MM community with MM2.

It seemed there was an obsession with Kaizo style stuff in MM1. And that got old quick.

Click to shrink...

I'm hoping the Kaizo obsession doesn't carry over to MM2. There's obviously a place for Kaizo levels still, but a few months into the 1st MM it was almost impossible to find well-crafted, more traditional levels.

 

[Deleted member 24540]

Context matters. In SMB for example, you value 1ups and coins because the game is about the challenge of reaching the end, and they are very useful because you easily get a game over. Going to the last world for the first time with only 3 lives? Good luck making much progress past the first level. You gotta get there with a bunch of them. Memorization and muscle memory are key to winning, and those skills accumulate slowly over the course of many attemps. So things like looking for secrets and making calculated risks are incentivized by the rules/systems of the game (why should I be looking for secrets and 1ups in Mario Maker stages? Hence why the new win conditions in the sequel are very welcome). Then it depends on the quality of the level design, if there are many interesting risk vs reward situations, and if crafting a route to get through the levels safetly and with many 1ups is an engaging process (reason why the very first Castlevania is so good, btw)

In this sense, the levels in the original SMB are actually extremely competent. There is a reason why that game is used so often in game design 101 examples. Developers knew exactly what they were doing during the NES era; the top Nintendo and Capcom/Konami games (Castlevania, Duck Tales, Mega Man) are really well crafted and thought out. Like for example using organic tutorials and letting the player discover new mechanics by themselves in a closed environment. This technique is still used in the most sophisticated games of our day (The Witness, Celeste); it's the best way to communicate ideas with the player.

As for Mario Maker itself, one off levels will never replace a campaign because things like difficulty and complexity curves which are vital to video game experiences can't be curves by definition because a curve must contain more than one data point... Also, I believe the toolset in MM2 is rather limited. Modern games are more about the joy of experiencing cool new concept (think gravity mechanics in Galaxy and cappy transformations in Odyssey) and it's hard to keep coming up with novel ideas via MM that can sustain a full 8 world campaign. I think the game is an amazing outlet for player creativity and it's fun to see what cool things people come up with, plus the design process itself is very fun, but these levels are not substitutes for a 'proper' Mario campaign. Don't get me wrong, it's possible to craft challenging puzzle/platforming stages, but it's hard to make them feel novel.

 

[Concelhaut]

Official made mario 2d levels are extremely overrated, Mario maker made it clear that there's tons of untaped potential in the base mechanics, but Nintendo don't really use it to the fullest.

However, I don't see it influencing Nintendo as fans keep shouting how good they are, when actually they aren't.

Click to shrink...

What a take...

 

[justiceiro]

Isn't that comment everyone is piling on referring to the official made levels in Super Mario Maker, not Mario games in general?

Click to shrink...

Both actually.

People in this thread are having a hard time understanding that overrated doesn't mean bad. But the best mario maker levels are way better than the best Nintendo made levels. The best one screen puzzle levels the community created have the creativity that none of the haunted Mansion levels come close to realize. And all this while having a way more limited set of tools.

I also came to the recent realization that even dkc did the one-theme-per-level thing way better than the Mario games did.

Mario is always trying to go for the lowest comon denominator for sure, and its their right, it also results in games like nsmbu being really derivative, since exploring the mechanics too much would demand too much attention from the audience, or at least seems like they think it will.

They laid a good foundation for sure, but calling it The pinnacle it's a stretch at best.

Tldr: I would rather buy a game where Nintendo curated the best 100 levels they found in Mario maker than buy one where all the levels were made by themselves.

 

[entremet]

What a take...

Click to shrink...

One of the things I love about this place. The craziest takes imaginable.

I recently replayed SMB3 for the millionth time via the Switch NES stuff. Still great and those levels are tiny.

 

[Velocity:Design:Comfort]

Context matters. In SMB for example, you value 1ups and coins because the game is about the challenge of reaching the end, and they are very useful because you easily get a game over. Going to the last world for the first time with only 3 lives? Good luck making much progress past the first level. You gotta get there with a bunch of them. Memorization and muscle memory are key to winning, and those skills accumulate slowly over the course of many attemps. So things like looking for secrets and making calculated risks are incentivized by the rules/systems of the game (why should I be looking for secrets and 1ups in Mario Maker stages? Hence why the new win conditions in the sequel are very welcome). Then it depends on the quality of the level design, if there are many interesting risk vs reward situations, and if crafting a route to get through the levels safetly and with many 1ups is an engaging process (reason why the very first Castlevania is so good, btw)

In this sense, the levels in the original SMB are actually extremely competent. There is a reason why that game is used so often in game design 101 examples. Developers knew exactly what they were doing during the NES era; the top Nintendo and Capcom/Konami games (Castlevania, Duck Tales, Mega Man) are really well crafted and thought out. Like for example using organic tutorials and letting the player discover new mechanics by themselves in a closed environment. This technique is still used in the most sophisticated games of our day (The Witness, Celeste); it's the best way to communicate ideas with the player.

As for Mario Maker itself, one off levels will never replace a campaign because things like difficulty and complexity curves which are vital to video game experiences can't be curves by definition because a curve must contain more than one data point... Also, I believe the toolset in MM2 is rather limited. Modern games are more about the joy of experiencing cool new concept (think gravity mechanics in Galaxy and cappy transformations in Odyssey) and it's hard to keep coming up with novel ideas via MM that can sustain a full 8 world campaign. I think the game is an amazing outlet for player creativity and it's fun to see what cool things people come up with, plus the design process itself is very fun, but these levels are not substitutes for a 'proper' Mario campaign. Don't get me wrong, it's possible to craft challenging puzzle/platforming stages, but it's hard to make them feel novel.

Click to shrink...

Doesn't Mario maker have more mechanics than the original games for most of the styles?

 

[Deleted member 24540]

What a take...

Click to shrink...

I can understand it though, because Nintendo devs never exhaust the complete set of interesting consequences of new mechanics they introduce, like how Celeste has a section dedicated for everything you can imagine doing in that game and never use the same idea twice unless there is a twist. This is a thing that only certain indie devs do, a trend that Braid popularized.



This is basically the meta of high level game design but you don't see this 'exhaustion of interesting gameplay ideas' in mainstream games, which can be boiled down to two categories: skinner boxes and cinematic games. Nintendo began this trend and peaked during the 90s, nowadays they don't really do this though besides the odd Octo Expansion. Even Mario Odyssey has so much repetition and basic/simplistic scenarios.

 

[Porco Rosso]

Just made a little "re-imagining" of my only somewhat-popular MM1 level - a puzzle-based haunted mansion called Mystery Mansion: 3JX-TB6-66G.

I also made my attempt at a pretty platformer-focused, gimmick-free level: 74W-NB8-QYG

Both are currently at 0 plays and likes, so any activity as well as constructive feedback would be welcome :)

Drop your codes as well and I'll play through them in return!

 

[Deleted member 24540]

Doesn't Mario maker have more mechanics than the original games for most of the styles?

Click to shrink...

In a very limited environment. There is water in MM2 right? But not really, because you can only use it under very strict circumstances. What if I want to have 3 different water heights in my level? Can't do it. What if you want water locally, not globally? Can't do it. What if I want the player to be able to manipulate the water level via a switch ala Water Temple? Can't do it. The list goes on.

There are a ton of levels in previous Mario games you can't recreate in MM2. Think about the rotating stars in NSMBU's snow levels for example:



Where are those? Heck, there are SMB NES sections in Mario Odyssey that you can't recreate, like the gravity based one with spherical surfaces. Nintendo can continue to surprise use with novel concepts in future 2D Mario games, while we as makers will be stuck with the same tools of limited scope.

 

[neon_dream]

Even Mario Odyssey has so much repetition and basic/simplistic scenarios.

Click to shrink...

I'm not sure I'm reading this correctly but I think I disagree with your assessment of Odyssey's design. Each world is mechanically unique. The ocean level plays nothing like the snow world.

You can play the game with minimal effort, however a deeper play requires really digging into the mechanics and fully engaging the unique design of each area. And each area explores the core moveset in different ways. By the end of the game, the game does expect mastery of that moveset, especially as you move into the post-game.

Which is sort of the guiding design principle of Mario games for quite awhile now.

If I'm not understanding what you're saying, feel free to correct me.

 

[diegov]

I've noticed the same thing about the story mode, and I was quite happy about it. The level design is more eclectic, and there's just a tiny bit of romhackery, and that's something new and exciting for me in a set of official Nintendo levels.

Some of these ideas will be on the table for the next 2D Mario, but Nintendo will have another bunch of ideas that I don't know about on there as well, and I they'll pick whatever they feel wi make the best Mario. Without knowing what other ideas they're thinking about, it's hard to say if "a bit of eclectic romhackery" will win.

 

[delete12345]

However, I don't see it influencing Nintendo as fans keep shouting how good they are, when actually they aren't.

Click to shrink...

Nintendo will indirectly get influenced now by checking out popular levels. Especially with the addition of "Boo!" and "Yea!" in Super Mario Maker 2, and the level popularity are refreshed on a weekly basis.

 

[Stopdoor]

Always weirds me out when people forget SMB3, one of the all-time Mario games, has super brief levels.

 

[Porco Rosso]

Always weirds me out when people forget SMB3, one of the all-time Mario games, has super brief levels.

Click to shrink...

Agreed - that's my favourite Mario game for that exact reason. Short, masterfully crafted levels.

 

[unicornKnight]

I much prefer classic Mario logic to MM2 story levels. It has decent ideas but I'm enjoying NSMBU as a game way more.

 

[Scrooge]

I often prefer classic challenging (and somewhat lengthy) Mario-type levels that see one or two cool twists on the basic mechanics per level over the typical Mario Maker level that is laser focused on one gimmick. Unfortunately, most people don't agree and Mario Maker course world is full of the latter. Finding classic Mario levels can be difficult even with the traditional tag as an option.

 

[Neoleo2143]

I'm not sure I'm reading this correctly but I think I disagree with your assessment of Odyssey's design. Each world is mechanically unique. The ocean level plays nothing like the snow world.

You can play the game with minimal effort, however a deeper play requires really digging into the mechanics and fully engaging the unique design of each area. And each area explores the core moveset in different ways. By the end of the game, the game does expect mastery of that moveset, especially as you move into the post-game.

Which is sort of the guiding design principle of Mario games for quite awhile now.

If I'm not understanding what you're saying, feel free to correct me.

Click to shrink...

It's the actual difficulties in the level designs. Nintendo doesn't really make levels that demand the absolute extremes of their core mechanics often enough is the critique, despite those core mechanics being extremely flexible and fluid.

 

[Gartooth]

I still appreciate classically designed levels, and think the campaign was a great showcase for those types of levels. Right now I'm working on a level that tries to learn from that variety, and mix-matches two central gimmicks.