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How is success achieved?

  • Mostly through hard work

    Votes: 78 5.4%
  • Mostly through luck

    Votes: 449 31.3%
  • A balance of hard work and luck

    Votes: 897 62.6%
  • I'm just here for the video

    Votes: 10 0.7%

  • Total voters
    1,434

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
I'm starting to believe you're arguing from a place of idealism. You're correct only in the broadest possible way... Like "if society values slow thinking, then everyone who thinks slowly is incredible."
That is more or less exactly what I'm arguing from. Effectively, I do not think the definition of talent as "a biological differentiation that manifests itself as an aptitude for some socially useful skill in the time period the subject lived in" is meaningful, as it cannot recognize talents that are useful in non-existent contexts.

But things like high physical attributes and the ability to understand and pick things up quickly have been useful across all of human history.

Humans have needed the advantages from those attributes from the start, so society is built around them.
I disagree, just in terms of anthropology. Humans would not have spread to the extent they did if each member of homo sapiens were not capable of broadly the same things. Some might specialize in this or that activity, and have been praised for it, or labeled "talented", but society is built around average capabilities, not outliers. I do not believe in "great man" theory which is one of the consequences of popular notions of talent.

People with those attributes are called talented.
I recognize what society likes to call "talent" but that does not mean that I have to accept that "talent" exists, in the same way most societies have an idea of god/s but that does not imply god/s exist. This is mostly a matter of philosophy, though.

EDIT: I think I see the issue. You're assuming anyone who is successful has what society perceives as talent, so you bring up the Trumps and Zuckerberg. That's more along the lines of luck - I wouldn't know if they're particularly talented. They're not the examples we're using here.
Eh, I just like grounding things in real terms, I can create a similar argument for any famous person in history. All your Mozarts and Teslas have had a long and rich history of hard work but most of society likes to pretend they're geniuses. I confess I don't know what examples people are using because no one is supplying their own examples. Tell me who you think is talented and I'll dig into their history to see what I can find.
 

GameChanger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,935
Depends on how we define the terms success, "hard work" and"luck", who we are talking about and what are their circumstances.
 

molnizzle

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,695
Talent absolutely exists. Music in all its forms came extremely easy to me growing up; I needed far less practice to achieve a high level of performance compared to my peers. It just came naturally to me.

The opposite was true when I tried to study computer science in college. I had to work twice as hard as others to achieve a barely passable result. I recognized that I would never be a high performer in that field and changed my major.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
I'll say this for "hard work". Given two people of comparable "luck", the one that works harder often comes out ahead. For example, take two people who went to Stanford, the one that gets a position at Google is usually the one that differentiates themselves from the pack, often through greater efforts, but otherwise both these people had opportunities most people in the world can only dream of. That is the "luck", just being born in the right economy to the right parents or going to the right school.
Right but even in this scenario the impact of the 'luck' portion (being born in the right economy to the right parents going to to right school) dwarfs the impact of the 'hard work' by multiple orders of magnitude.

I think you are conflating the power of labor (a very real thing) with success (a fluctuating socially constructed idea). We could maybe agree on some standard for determining success between ourselves but the concept of success in broader society is determined by society and many people are inherently shut out of that concept because of who they are. Slavery comes to mind as the most obvious example of this. The labor power of slave labor was immense but slaves were severed entirely from the societal concept of success.
 

Necromanti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,546
What separates the few hardworking or skilled people who do find success relative to their equivalent peers? It's luck.
 

Kickfister

Member
May 9, 2019
1,781
I think it's about:
10% luck
20% skill
15% concentrated power of will
5% pleasure
50% pain
and 100% reason to remember the name.

Also let it be known that I'm immensely disappointed in you all for letting this thread go on this long without this post.
 
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Croc Man

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,546
Its mostly luck. However hard work can tilt the odds in your favour and put you in the best position to take advantage of those chances.

Take sportsman, doesn't matter how hard they work if they're injured when the scout comes to watch them. However if signed then it's often the hardest worker that stays behind practising free kicks tht makes it.
 
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ZackieChan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,056
It's an Americanism. Culturally, we're an anti-intellectual nation hence you have platitudes like "hard work" promoted as part of the national religion.
It also conveniently allows people to dismiss work in general and say it's all luck. So it goes both ways, imo. Most likely it's the silver spoons versus the do-nothings arguing that, while the smart workers are watching from afar getting ahead.
 

DrBillRiverman

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
430
England
It's more luck.
Obviously you have to work, but the opportunities you get will be luck if the draw.
I'd also say charm and personality factors in.
There's no hard and fast equation but to give a rough breakdown I'd say:
50% luck
25% work
25% charm
 

Modest_Modsoul

Living the Dreams
Member
Oct 29, 2017
23,546
I vote for both being balanced.

But you know, maybe there are chances for one of them being 99% or even 100% responsible... 🤷
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
It's dumb to reduce success to one factor. Our world isn't simplistic. Something with as many moving parts as success doesn't originate from just one thing.
 

Yrch

Member
Oct 29, 2017
502
My wife got her job with her current employer about 15 years ago.
She has a higher than average payment, extra retirement bonus, 2 extra bonus payouts per year and additional holidays, all from the very beginning and the contract is not limited.

New hires that apply for the same job get less pay, no retirement bonus and all contracts are limited to 2 years with a reevaluation for further employment after those 2 years.

My wife was in the last wave of hirings who got those bonuses.

No hard work, just being in the right place at the right time.
 

Grenchel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,294
Luck for me puts you in the opportunity to work your ass off for someone to prove you worth a bunch of money
 

Shopolic

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
6,840
60% luck and 40% hard work in normal situation.
In countries like Iran, 90% luck and relations and 10% hard work.
 

nny

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,261
Tell me who you think is talented and I'll dig into their history to see what I can find.

samoyed Darknight

Your discussion has reminded of a section in a book (From AI to Zeitgeist - A Philosophical Guide for the Skeptical Psychologist, by N.H.Pronko) that touches on this topic and gives some food for thought as well as interesting examples (Newton, Beethoven, Michelangelo, among others) - it's a very short read, a little over 2 pages (the book is divided in fairly short reflections on many topics), and I couldn't help but share - you may find it interesting!

EKX682O.jpg


27jeNND.jpg


u2j5rx3.jpg
 

Window

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,282
Success is a function of both luck and hard work but the weighting differs for different people. It also depends on your definition of success.
 

Ovaryactor

Member
Nov 20, 2018
416
samoyed Darknight

Your discussion has reminded of a section in a book (From AI to Zeitgeist - A Philosophical Guide for the Skeptical Psychologist, by N.H.Pronko) that touches on this topic and gives some food for thought as well as interesting examples (Newton, Beethoven, Michelangelo, among others) - it's a very short read, a little over 2 pages (the book is divided in fairly short reflections on many topics), and I couldn't help but share - you may find it interesting!

EKX682O.jpg


27jeNND.jpg


u2j5rx3.jpg
Ohhhhhh thank you!!! And to anyone working on Art who agrees with Samoyed or Darknight , go read Art and Fear. It will dispel any personal notions of "talent" you may have, that gets in the way of you working on your work.
 

T002 Tyrant

Member
Nov 8, 2018
8,936
Success is a made-up construct that everyone seems to measure in terms of money. But I count a single parent of four children on a low income equally as successful as any billionaire or CEO.
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,089
Los Angeles, CA
I feel like it's a combination of more than just hard work or luck.

It's like a mix of hard work, luck, opportunity, and who you know. Sometimes, a lot of stars have to align in order to to pave the way for success.

I'm hardly successful, but I'd like to share two experiences I've had within the past 5 years that I think have been "successes" in my small world:

First, my published graphic novel. I was working as a QA Tester, and unfortunately, that career path was a dead end, and I was feeling disheartened and miserable. I've been an artist my entire life, and it was always a dream of mine since high school to have a published book. Oh, I had started dozens and dozens of projects in the past, but never finished a single one, yet I still called myself a "comic book artist." I felt like a fraud, so I threw the gauntlet down at myself. Even if it was just a 22 page book, I just wanted to prove to myself that I could finish something. So I started work on my project.

I spent the next year working on the premise, characters, plot for the first issue, then script. Eventually, I had written a 4 issue mini-series, and moved on to actually producing pages. I would pencil, ink, letter, and color the pages whenever I could squeeze in the time. After 3 months. I finished the first 22 page issue. As rough as it was, I was just so proud that I had actually finished something! I proved to myself that yes, I could complete a comic book after all! It then filled me with the confidence to tackle the other three issues in the mini series. I was inspired and fired up! I then decided I would self publish that first issue, just so I could have a physical copy of the book to hold in my hands, as I had produced the first book completely digital on my Surface Pro. I used this service called Kablam, that did print on demand comic books. I got the first issue printed, and it was such a wonderful feeling to be able to flip through the pages of my book and just look at it. It truly felt real at that moment. Then I got to work on Issue #2.

It was during the production of issue #2 that a dear friend of mine introduced me to Barbra and Bryant Dillon of Fanbase Press. He had met them due to his work on his podcast, Comics on Comics. They were the owners of their own independent comic book company, and while they had published a few books, they were looking to expand into more all ages type books (most of their comics were for mature audiences; horror books, that sort of thing). So me and my now ex-wife met with them, we hit it off and had great rapport, and they really enjoyed issue #1 of my book. They thought it was a series that'd fit in with their goal of expanding their readership to a wider audience, and loved that my book had diversity and a strong anti-bullying sentiment.

I showed them the work in progress pages of Issue #2, and took a chance, asking them if they'd be interested in publishing The Gamma Gals under their Fanbase Press (then, Fanboy Comics), banner. They agreed. I then spent the next 3 years working on issues #2-4, and they published them digitally on comixology. While they were working on plans for the physical graphic novel release of The Gamma Gals, I pitched the idea that instead of adding concept art and sketches to the back of graphic novel, I'd write and draw 2 bonus issues to give the graphic novel more value. They thought that was a great idea, so I set to work scripting and drawing the 2 stand alone stories. It took 4 years to complete, but I now have a published graphic novel that I poured my blood, sweat, and tears into, and I can hold it in my hands and put it on my bookshelf. It's also available at two different comic book shops here in Los Angeles, and a comic book store in Canada! 14 year old me would be losing his shit if he could see that. Never in a million years did I ever expect to see something I created on a comic book shelf (and the shelf of a comic book store I used to shop at when I first move to LA, no less!) The point is that I put in the work to produce something, and then opportunity via who I knew, and luck opened the door for me to realize a childhood dream and get the book published.

The second story I'd like to share revolves around my current career. While I was working on The Gamma Gals, I ended up starting a job as a QA tester on Marvel Strikeforce. I got that job because of a former coworker reaching out to me and asking me if I wanted to be his first QA hire on a "secret project". I was burned out on the gaming industry at that time, but I desperately needed a new job. Early on, he told me that he couldn't make any promises, but there was opportunity at this company to perhaps pursue my other dream of becoming a game designer.

I worked QA for about 6 months, and then an opportunity in the combat pod opened itself up to me. It was small, just doing ability descriptions because the lead combat designer was overwhelmed with her duties of working on the combat data, combat balance, and ability descriptions for 80 something characters. My QA Lead told me to make myself invaluable to the combat pod, and there was a chance that I could move over to that pod permanently, perhaps moving from QA to design. But again, no promises or guarantees. While writing ability descriptions, I learned how to read json files, and understanding how to read them evolved into me learning how to write the combat data myself. My work was split between my QA tasks and my combat pod tasks, but eventually, because of my ability to write combat data, I was able to ease the load of the overworked lead combat designer, and became her support. She trained me in writing combat data, as well as how to balance characters for combat, and create gear data. By the end of my first 10 months at the company, I was officially moved over from QA to the design team as an associate game designer for the combat pod. Then, from within the combat pod I moved on to integration.

Integration, for those that don't know, is like digital LEGOS. I take all of the aspects of a character (character model, animations, VFX, props, ability runners and modules), and assemble them so that the character loads into combat, and does what they're supposed to do when the player presses the buttons. I was also tasked with creating combat cameras, so my comic book and storyboard background served me well, and the other combat designers hate working with cameras lol. Integrators are also the designer that leads the direction of the particular character they've been assigned. So I work with the producer, animators, and the VFX artists, and take point on communicating with them the design goals of the character, and then put all of those elements together. So, the next time you fire up Ghost Rider or Emma Frost in Marvel Strikeforce, those are just two characters I've integrated and created cameras for for the game.

Again, the point is that hard work, luck, opportunity, and who I know, is how I've managed to get to where I'm at now. It 100% was not solely my own efforts and gumption, but a combination of a lot of things. I'm far from being some massive success in terms of, say, money, but in terms of attaining two lifelong dreams, I like to think I'm successful. The real trick is to not get in your own way. I'm constantly working to combat my own self doubt, fear of failure (or fear of success), and I'm always keeping an eye out for opportunities that may present themselves to me so I can achieve my next set of goals and dreams.

It may have taken me over a decade to get to this point in my career, but I am so grateful and fortunate to have had people that cared enough for me to open the doors of opportunity for me. So, yeah, a mix of hard work, luck, opportunity, and people willing to give me a chance to prove myself.

Anyway, that's my experience, at least. Sorry it was such a long rant.
 
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Lost Knight

Member
Mar 17, 2019
944
West Virginia
I opened a successful business (well, until COVID hit), and I worked hard on it until it was successful, I think circumstance was on my side too. I worked on it for 3 years until this pandemic basically undid everything I worked for :(
 

vitamind

Member
Nov 1, 2018
219
Hard work often puts you in the position to take advantage of luck/opportunity. Of course this is a very macroscopic view of things.
 

Raiden

Member
Nov 6, 2017
2,922
Both probably. Some people have fought for years to get where they are. And some are just born into it or got very lucky with something.
 

Ruisu

Banned
Aug 1, 2019
5,535
Brasil
It's neither or both. Success is actually knowing the right people and having someone to get you "in". So it depends if you consider having that circle of contacts a result of hard work or luck.
 

Temp_User

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,691
A little bit of both. Starting environment (ie. family wealth and contacts, school association) plays a pretty huge role too.
 

iAmPossum

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,135
Imv where, when, and who you're born to determines your destiny so luck plays a significant influence in shaping your mental attitude, goals and success.
 

Klyka

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,423
Germany
I think it's about:
10% luck
20% skill
15% concentrated power of will
5% pleasure
50% pain
and 100% reason to remember the name.

Also let it be known that I'm immensely disappointed in you all for letting this thread go on this long without this post.
Literally what I expected the first post to be.
This post here is success
 

NameUser

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,980
Both. Like look at Beyonce and Taylor Swift. Both are wildly popular and have talent, but they have peers who could sing better than them. They were in the right place at the right time and had parents that had money to invest in them.
 

G.O.O.

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,089
I'd say sometimes luck, sometimes both. Hard work happens too but it's more rare, you have at least to be born at the right place.
 

CerealKi11a

Chicken Chaser
Member
May 3, 2018
1,956
A combination. You have to be ready to take advantage of the opportunities that come your way.

If I had to say what the balance is, I'd say more luck than hard work, since luck probably decides more large-scale things (like parental income, for example).
 

Onix555

Member
Apr 23, 2019
3,380
UK
I think intelligence comes into play as well, some people can have everything in place for them to be successful but still blow it due to just straight up making dumbass life choices.

In general though a mix of luck and hardwork. A good saying is "You might not hit every target, but you miss every shot you don't take".
 

Murfield

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,425
In my experience, if you work very hard you will get more chances to roll the dice. Though I suppose this depends a lot on context.

I just wanted to do research professionally.
 

Cow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,625
It is 100% luck. There is not such thing as somebody who doesn't work hard.