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Is Sekiro's combat really that good?
- Thread starter Sammy Samusu
- Start date
First post nailed it.
And ill have to try removing the combat arts, since theyve messed me up more often than none.
Snake Eyes Shirahagi.
I'm sure part of the problem was me being a giant scrublord and not taking the time to memorize the enemy's moveset. Firecrackers worked really well, actually. But in the end, basic attacking and deflecting won out, as usual.
I forget it if managed to get a stealth deathblow that time. I did with several of my attempts.
My running hypothesis is people who are "bored" by DMC5 don't understand jump cancelling.
Sorry to be a douche about it but that game's combat system is fucking incredible. Practically unlimited room for creativity.
It's decent but nowhere near as good as Souls or BB. The whole deflection mechanic really wears off after a while.
Ni-Oh's combat was too complicated to be good. I couldn't bring myself to care about stances. Simplicity + depth is the key. That's why the Soulsborne games are great as well. I can hit all the buttons once and pretty much figure out my entire toolkit.
Good combat is not only player mechanics but also enemy design. Sekiro has probably some of the best designed enemies on an action game. They are extremely fun to fights and perfectly tuned to the mechanics of the game.
I'd say that most combat arts are situational but Shinobi tools are incredibly useful in both bosses and normal encounters. They open a lot of possibilities in how to face your encounters. Not sure what videos the OP saw, but I saw plenty of ones where tools were used in most boss fights. I use them on most boss fights to some degree too.
Sekiro doesn't have the depth of DMC5 and doesn't needs it. Is basically the RE4 of action games.
I'd say that most combat arts are situational but Shinobi tools are incredibly useful in both bosses and normal encounters. They open a lot of possibilities in how to face your encounters. Not sure what videos the OP saw, but I saw plenty of ones where tools were used in most boss fights. I use them on most boss fights to some degree too.
Sekiro doesn't have the depth of DMC5 and doesn't needs it. Is basically the RE4 of action games.
They're not big on axes, either. Especially with the R1 followup, does sooo much posture damage.
If only Ubisoft took this system and impemented it in Assassin's Creed, holy mother...the white circle and outline needs to go tho, it does more harm to me than any good. Also Ubi should've encouraged widget-less play for advanced ranked matches. I still see those turned on in every YT-Video I watch.
Generally speaking, the fireworks will definitely get you where you want to go. However, that is a boss that gives you lots of chances to oil 'em up and burn 'em. Which is pretty useful.
I hear you on the scrublord thing. I too am a scrublord. I think that is why I have gotten so much use out of the tools, as I am always trying shit out. I am also experimenting still. Like, I didn't try using the mist feathers until very late in the game and I was blown away by how awesome they are.
I do sympathize that sometimes experimentation can go... poorly. However, it is awesome when you find the right tool for the job (as they say).
People be doing naked level 1 runs in Dark Souls, but others complain "you can beat every boss by parry and counter in Sekiro". That's just the nature of From's designs. You don't need to use every trick weapon in Bloodborne, you can use one, and not even use the extended the whole game. You can not even use the guns, anything.
Also, prosthetics (and skills) are such that you can't just pull them out randomly and expect it to work 100%. You have to train to learn the timing. With any skill, any prosthetic. It's like in a fighting game. You can't switch to a new character and expect to mop the floor with everything until you learn the timings.
There are a lot of methods to beat many bosses, but the game doesn't go out of its way to show you. I suppose this is a negative in some ways, as there are some cool ways to do it I never would have realized without seeing other strategies.
But eh, to each their own. I'm finding it pretty great. Not without flaws, like any game (including all Souls, Bloodborne, NiOh, etc.). Personally I'm not getting bored with it, and I'm finding it great to overcome bosses.
Also, prosthetics (and skills) are such that you can't just pull them out randomly and expect it to work 100%. You have to train to learn the timing. With any skill, any prosthetic. It's like in a fighting game. You can't switch to a new character and expect to mop the floor with everything until you learn the timings.
There are a lot of methods to beat many bosses, but the game doesn't go out of its way to show you. I suppose this is a negative in some ways, as there are some cool ways to do it I never would have realized without seeing other strategies.
But eh, to each their own. I'm finding it pretty great. Not without flaws, like any game (including all Souls, Bloodborne, NiOh, etc.). Personally I'm not getting bored with it, and I'm finding it great to overcome bosses.
If you worry about too many systems being thrown at you in Sekiro, you would hate Devil May Cry 5I had fun with Sekiro (beat it a couple days ago) and I think its combat system is good, but not without huge flaws.
Let's see, how many of you actually used all those combat arts and their upgrades? Combat arts are pretty much useless and sometimes they actually get in the way if you misclick a button in the middle of a combo or block/deflect. I honestly left my combat arts slot empty for most of the game.
Like many, I watched some boss tutorials on Youtube and combat arts were never used or recommended to overcome the challenge, they killed all bosses using regular attacks, and I did the same. That kinda pissed me off cause it was basically a "git gud" situation.
For example, I had trouble with the final boss so I tried to make things easier by using combat arts and tools, but those only left me open for deathblows. As soon as I dropped all special moves/tools, and started to focus on deflecting and using regular sword attacks, I improved drastically and defeated the final boss easily. How come? In any other game, specials would be there to make things easier. That's what they are there for!
So yeah, I feel like the basic works really well in Sekiro, but they tried to add special stuff to it and ultimately failed to create a diverse combat system. If you are not encouraged to use all the arsenal you have, eventually the game will get boring and repetitive.
In my opinion, Horizon has a much better combat system. In that game you really have to try different strategies and use all kinds of tools against different enemies. In Sekiro you dodge, deflect and do regular sword swings throughout the game.
Thoughts?
They overcomplicated Sekiro. So bad, that I honestly can't push myself to keep playing. Demon's Souls, Dark Souls and Bloodborne absolutely nailed it in terms of being simple to control, but a challenging combat approach.
Yes it has really good combat. The problem is that it gets really repetitive especially since the levels are so easy and the bosses are very same-ey.
Ni oh has the best combat. Soulsborne has the best enemy encounters and boss variety. It also has builds to enhance the variety.
Sekiro kind of sits right in the middle of those which is still good or even great, but unremarkable.
Ni oh has the best combat. Soulsborne has the best enemy encounters and boss variety. It also has builds to enhance the variety.
Sekiro kind of sits right in the middle of those which is still good or even great, but unremarkable.
I don't think that has to be it. DMC5 and Sekiro have very different combat pacing/a different way of engaging players in it and while I like both I can easily see why one of them isn't as engaging as the other to some people.
The best way I can put it is that DMC5 feels like you're trying to eloquently recite a speech. There is a lot of depth in your available "vernacular" and the way you can arrange your speech has a lot of fun freedom.
Sekiro is far more limited but in exchange combat feels like conversing with enemies. It's much more a back and forth exchange but if you master it you will be in charge of that conversation.
I enjoyed both combat systems for very different reasons my preference lies with sekiro though.
I enjoyed it for most of my play time but without acquiring different weapons to mix things up it eventually grew a bit stale. The prosthetic tools and combat arts weren't suitable replacements.
It's great. I've used all of the prosthetics for different bosses and minibosses and several of the combat arts. Some of them aren't great, but that's any game.
Once I broke my Souls-brain and started playing it how the game told me to play it, it became very thrilling fighting the minibosses and bosses. Nonstop attacking and parrying makes for a hell of a show. I wish I could watch it back, haha. I'm always so focused on reading the enemy I don't even get to take it all in.
Boppin fools with that Ichimonji Double never gets old to me, lol.
Once I broke my Souls-brain and started playing it how the game told me to play it, it became very thrilling fighting the minibosses and bosses. Nonstop attacking and parrying makes for a hell of a show. I wish I could watch it back, haha. I'm always so focused on reading the enemy I don't even get to take it all in.
Boppin fools with that Ichimonji Double never gets old to me, lol.
If you want to argue it that way I can also just say that the AI in DMC is programmed to get juggled into oblivion, and the only thing you as a player do is memorization of combo inputs.
All they did was add attacks that need to be jumped and attacks that need to be parried/Mikri Countered?? The only thing different from Souls here is the deflecting(obviously) and the unblockable attacks. You ultimately still need to read enemy animations, albeit more closely, in Sekiro.
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Nioh's combat loop and variety of technique and balance is one of the best of any game, pure action combat or not.
Its issues tend to come from outside of that(overused enemy types, overused areas ect)
Improve that, and the game itself becomes 10x better, and its already damn good for a firs game.
Sekiro is good for a Fromsoft game who came from beginnings unrelated to action gaming, but i personally prefer bloodborne in their catalogue in regards to action heavy combat, more variety.
Nope. It completely removed any creativity on the players part which I think is a staple of good combat design. They leaned Hard into needing to memorize enemy move sets which to me is not a fun as earlier efforts which required additional thought into positioning. I felt too often in Sekiro that I was just memorizing rather than reacting to a changing situation.
I think you're both half right? The tool definitely trivializes those fights, but they're already trivial if you know how to deflect them.
It basically lets you skip learning the fights, which is great if you just want to finish them and move on, but it doesn't do anything for someone who already knows or wants to learn the enemies. I spent 10 minutes learning how to deal with Headless and Shichimen, then went and killed them all in a row without dying. I don't ever have to learn the fights again, and I don't ever have to go out of my way to pick up/upgrade the Umbrella in future runs.
I think it's cool that people still manage to find different playstyles in this despite what I think is a much more limited toolset than Souls and even Bloodborne.
As I mentioned, DMC5 is stylish, but feels toothless by comparison.
Nioh combat is fine but alot of the higher difficulties are so cheesy and unbalanced that endgame is just stacking 8 buffs, going super saiyan, and spamming one button to one shot stuff.
It's better than Souls mechanically but the encounter design is so much weaker that it's less fun to play.
It's better than Souls mechanically but the encounter design is so much weaker that it's less fun to play.
I like it a lot, but at the same time it was pretty restrictive and more often than not there were a lot less viable options from the available options (especially regarding the prosthetic tools). The boss fights especially usually just devolved into very specific ways to beat, and it was all basically just deflect, deflect, counter or dodge, counter. It doesn't offer the same kind of replay as the previous FROM games from a combat perspective other than simply trying to perfect each boss fight.
For a much longer period, this simply doesn't happen. I actually think Nioh has a much better combat system in terms of variety and ability to replay encounters with a different approach, but aside from that...yeah, we agree. The rest of the game design doesn't even come close to FROM's, although it was still one of the best games of 2017. Let's just hope TN shores up the major weaknesses in the sequel.
For a much longer period, this simply doesn't happen. I actually think Nioh has a much better combat system in terms of variety and ability to replay encounters with a different approach, but aside from that...yeah, we agree. The rest of the game design doesn't even come close to FROM's, although it was still one of the best games of 2017. Let's just hope TN shores up the major weaknesses in the sequel.
The combat is very good, but I wish the skills and prosthetic attachments had a bit more use. I routinely use the firecrackers, variants of the shurikens, and sometimes the shield fan. As for the special sword swings, I usually find that they hurt me in combat. Even worse is when I accidentally trigger them because they're so slow.
I think the game is overall better than Demon's, Dark Souls 2, and Bloodborne, though. Not sure just yet where I put it with Dark Souls and Dark Souls 3.
I think the game is overall better than Demon's, Dark Souls 2, and Bloodborne, though. Not sure just yet where I put it with Dark Souls and Dark Souls 3.
Now THIS is a problem I agree with, and bless FromSoftware on nailing the balance of Sekiro. Nioh on way of the demon? This is doable, but getting kinda dumb. Nioh on way of the wise and above? Plain dumb. Literally ZERO room for error if you play the game normally.
I mean if you want tooth you can still play it on Dante Must Die and really pay attention to every movement.
No none of that shit the original statement that was made that I was arguing against is:
"Beat it 4 times (NG through NG+4), and it's good if you focus entirely on the deflecting. Nothing else, minus firecrackers/fistful of ash, ichimonji and shuriken are worth bothering with, and even those are largely situational."
There are plenty of tools insanely useful regardless of the ignorance of that poster not having used them.
I don't care for the constant goal post moving of what useful is it went from number of emblems used(idiotic metric cause all that matters is if you can get through the fight after that emblems are always easy to replenish), to you get the upgrade to late(you don't), to it's not useful for people that know how to deflect. Never the less I provided examples for why these are all still utter horseshit. You aren't going to deflect https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdcQBM025G4 the purple attacks here and be as effective as here without the umbrella.
In any case enough goal post moving. Pretty sure that it has been proven that the other tools are very useful you just have to know when and how.
That's a good tip about the oil. I keep forgetting that's an option, even though I have a big stockpile of it from all the guys at Hirata Estate.
I've barely used the mist raven at all. I just bought the first upgrade because I could afford it, so now would be a good time to test it out.
The game's punishing difficulty hasn't stopped me from experimenting, but I sure don't like the feeling that I'm making things much harder for myself by doing anything besides standard attacking and parrying.
Also, working Ex-Act into Nero's combat makes him incredibly punchy. Your sword because a massive wing of flame slamming into enemies and sending Nero flying around the battlefield.
Perfect first post.
Also the parry just isn't as satisfying as say... MGR.
Getting a fuller grasp on it by NG+, some battles are making me feel euphoric. So yeah, it's that good if you understand what it wants you to do.
Yeah WOTD is probably when the game is at it's best, unfortunately you're JUST starting your build here. WOTW and above are just straight cheese with the really bad loot system keeping you playing. I got 200+ floors into the Abyss before I got sick and tired of uploading and downloading my save over and over again to get a specific grace. Nioh 2 NEEDS to be better about this if they're still going with Diablo-style loot - any system that requires savescumming to not waste dozens of hours is straight up terrible.
DMC5 really only requires you to be stylish in DMD, the base difficulty and SoS are too easy IMO but starting off everyone at a higher difficulty would cause a huge ruckus about accessibility and all that, which we already have too much of with people complaining about how hard Sekiro is (the game actually isn't all that hard when you take the time to learn from your deaths). DMC5 combat is way more satisfying than From and Nioh's for me but they aren't even in the same genre so it's not fair to compare.
Restrictive to an excess, it defines challenge by how short or few are your openings to attack, between the long enemy strings. The discovery of its systems in the beginning are more satisfying than the ending destination. It doesn't help either how most enemies don't push you out of the comfort zone, with stealth rapidly becoming the ideal approach, in order to avoid tedious exchanges against enemies who are weak, but still defend nicely, and those who hit like a truck, requiring extra patience. Add to this the impractical nature of many Combat Arts, which by itself are already limited, and the scarce number of prosthetic tools, its functions divided in separated compartments in what's a grindy, obtuse decision, as by the conclusion, many of them have become irrelevant.
It is a fine system, despite this and other quirks. Crossing swords is very flashy, mobility is a high point (very reminiscent of Western series like Batman or Uncharted), with the best encounters delivering a tense, choreographic action as few others can do. Yet for progression, overall design and rhythm, enemy variety and possibilities, I keep regarding Bloodborne as their superior effort, one where risk/reward is higher, morphing guns add impredictability, and firearms make for the most gratifying parries in the genre. As for other developers, Nioh, God of War and DMC are all stronger contenders. Sekiro always appeared to me as an unusual bird, relying so heavily on the sword and few else. Though it has fantastic hit feedback and some memorable enemies, it can't compete in equal conditions with titles so rich in skills, styles and options. It is therefore a game in its own class, proposing a familiar yet different experience, a great success even with its small shortcomings.
It is a fine system, despite this and other quirks. Crossing swords is very flashy, mobility is a high point (very reminiscent of Western series like Batman or Uncharted), with the best encounters delivering a tense, choreographic action as few others can do. Yet for progression, overall design and rhythm, enemy variety and possibilities, I keep regarding Bloodborne as their superior effort, one where risk/reward is higher, morphing guns add impredictability, and firearms make for the most gratifying parries in the genre. As for other developers, Nioh, God of War and DMC are all stronger contenders. Sekiro always appeared to me as an unusual bird, relying so heavily on the sword and few else. Though it has fantastic hit feedback and some memorable enemies, it can't compete in equal conditions with titles so rich in skills, styles and options. It is therefore a game in its own class, proposing a familiar yet different experience, a great success even with its small shortcomings.
I think it's the worst combat of the Soulsbornekiro games. It's still fun overall and by no means bad but it is very limited by only having one main weapon making every combat encounter feel very similar. The combat arts didn't feel very useful outside of Ichimonji Double and even that had issues (huge ass recovery). The prosthetics also felt very situational with the exception of the firecrackers (thanks, ROBERTOOOO) and thus didn't really provide much of a shakeup in the combat when 9 out of 10 times the katana is the better choice.
Also, From still haven't fixed their broken grabboxes.
Also, From still haven't fixed their broken grabboxes.
I would also argue that the firectackers were wayyyy too op.
I didn't even bring DMC into the conversation, but while we're at it: you're not comparing those games in terms of the skill ceiling, right?
Because anyone who believes that Sekiro has a higher skill ceiling than DMC is out of his mind. AI programmed to get juggled? On Dante must die? Good luck! DMC requires a whole set of skills. The motoric skills needed to play Dane at top level make Sekiro look like a mobile game. Pal, better come up with a different route for your argumentation before the DMC -heads enter this thread.
I don't think it's fun to might mobs in Sekiro. Mechanics seem to be geared towards one on one encounters, not crowd control.
Yeah Sekiro doesn't even have the best combat of games released in March 2019 lol.