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Do you think RTwP sucks?

  • yeah it does

    Votes: 298 29.2%
  • nah it's fine

    Votes: 722 70.8%

  • Total voters
    1,020

xpownz

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Feb 13, 2020
2,165
Thanks god Larian went full turn based with BG3. The worst part of any rtwp rpg game is the combat system. How can i role play anyone if the game doesnt give me the time and the feedback of my actions to do so? Turn based combat is the best to >actually roleplay< which is the intention of a >role playing game<
 
Mar 25, 2019
435
Depends on the game for me. I don't like RTwP in CRPGS like Pillars 2 in the OP, love the turn based mode they introduced. I've liked it fine enough in Bioware games, though straightforward action combat would probably be better. But then I absolutely love RTwP in ps1 RPGs, like Parasite Eve and Vagrant Story, so much better than FF ATB imo which is why it was awesome to see FF7R basically use Parasite Eve combat (without that nutty range dome the ps1 games had)
 

Unicorn

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 29, 2017
9,555
Only Fallout sucks.

Vanquish, Bayonetta, Bloodrayne, et al work amazingly.
 

Ra

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
12,207
Dark Space
Yes, absolutely, it's garbage.

Bioware didn't make a RTwP game with decent combat until Dragon Age Inquisition, and they did that by turning "Real Time with Pause" into "Pause with Real Time". Instead of pressing a button to pause/unpause combat, you hold RT to advance combat. There's also a bit of a slowdown before returning to "real time".

Oddly enough this made things way more engaging and intuitive. So maybe it's less that RTwP is bad and more that there wasn't a game that implemented it well until DA:I.
But the PC versions of Dragon Age games are pressing space bar to pause, assign actions, then you unpause to watch things play out, literally classic RTwP mechanics.

DA:I was the worst version by far on PC, no contest.
 

disparate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,904
But the PC versions of Dragon Age games are pressing space bar to pause, assign actions, then you unpause to watch things play out, literally classic RTwP mechanics.

DA:I was the worst version by far on PC, no contest.
The PC version allows you to do both, making it the best version.
 

Lengualo

Member
May 14, 2022
398
UK/Mexico
VII Remake was my immediate thought too. Although I think the way it slow down time significantly rather than a full on pause, makes the battles feel less stop start.

FF7R is an interesting one to me. They tried but its one of the things I dislike about the game. It would have been better if they had more shortcut mappings like other ARPGs - ie Tales games.
 
Apr 4, 2018
4,514
Vancouver, BC
It was brilliant in the Mass Effect Trilogy. Being able to pause and send teammates strategically into battle worked incredibly well.

You seem to be focused specifically on turn-based vs real-time with pause, but it also worked great in Kotor, Jade Empire and Dragon Age in my memory.

I've always seen the real-time with pause mechanics to be a way to slow down a borderline action game, to let players strategize freely, as opposed to an alternate to turn-based, but perhaps that's where its roots started. Since you can pause at any time, it has always been easy for me to slow down to whatever pace I needed.
 

Abaddonn

Member
Dec 4, 2018
266
I like turnbased RPGs but I realize that the vast majority of people don't like turn-based and that its super niche, RTwP seems a pretty good alternative to turnbased IMO I loved it in a game like 7R.
 

Ra

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
12,207
Dark Space
Setting a bunch of skills to go off, then unpausing to see your coordinated destruction play out, is a type of satisfaction turn-based systems just can't match for me.

I till have Divinity OS2 has my favorite WRPG, because both types of systems are good in my book.
 

tokkun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,408
Or you could just remove the fodder enemies and only keep the interesting fights like most good turn based RPGs/SRPGs do

Trash mobs are kept around for elements of game design that a contingent of RPG fans really like, such as farming materials for crafting systems, rare drops, grinding levels / skills, etc.

RTWP / auto-battle / fast-forward are all attempts to strike a compromise for the portion of fans who don't like the repetition involved in those systems.
 

disparate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,904
The sentiment I'm getting from the thread is that RTwP is pretty great when you have direct character control over their movement with WASD or a thumbstick like in FFXII, 7R, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, KOTOR, etc.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,138
Huh? Like in FF7R? No way, that was great. Way better than normal turn based.

Dragon Age and others do suck, but it's not because of the basic concept, it's because they execute it poorly.
 

Instro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,018
I don't mind either way for classic CRPGs, although I can't say I ever found a lot of those games used it particularly well. I do think it's a much more valuable and useful concept for full 1st/3rd person action RPGs though. Bridges the gap of having actually good action combat while still preserving the strategy and party control elements present in turn based games.
 
Dec 20, 2017
523
Well designed turn based doesn't need to have low level fodder fights, though. This is a problem with some games that try to do both.
It's not just about rushing low level fights. Turn based has an issue where even tough and interesting fights can start to drag at the end, not because they're still difficult but because all you need to do is maneuver your units to attack the last remaining enemy in the corner, or because you just need to alternate between spamming attacks and healing. With RTwP you can switch to playing in real time (or at least start pausing less and less) as soon as a fight becomes simple, so it drags less.
 

Dot-N-Run

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,037
The issue for me is always with the number of actors involved. Controlling something like 6 characters just gets messy and makes mee feel like I am losing control whatever something unexpected happens.

Smaller parties and good ai scripting go a long way to making this style fun for me.
 

Uzzy

Gabe’s little helper
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,210
Hull, UK
Literally the worst thread literally of all time literally ever. OP should literally be banned for this opinion.

Real Time With Pause is factually the best style of combat in gaming, combining the strategy and tactical elements of turn based systems with the chaos and intensity of real time systems, meaning you get all of that combat goodness without each fight with random skeleton mobs taking longer than D:OS's plot took to write. You get fights that keep you on your feet, drive up the excitement and drama of being there in the combat, while also letting you take a breath, pause and consider your options before implementing them and seeing your orders change the combat in your favour.
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,488
New York
Horrible opinion and thread. Truly shameful. RTwP to me is the greatest for party based tactical RPGs and for party based action RPGs. Traditional TB can all too often become painfully slow and tedious as a single round of combat can take ages when accounting for your party size, enemy party size, various animations and especially movement and positioning. It's great when super fast paced like many JRPGs, but once you throw in character positioning and movement shit can go sideways fast. I really tried to like DOS 1/2 but they just tested my patience far too much. I don't need to spend 40 minutes to an hour on a non-boss fight simply because it takes 15 minutes just to go through a single round of combat.

RTwP also I think does a much better job of approximating how combat actually works and feels. Games are inherently artificial, there's no getting around that, but TB feels excessively so in many cases. While full on real time just is too chaotic and lacks the ability to really coordinate your fights in detail. RTwP can be extremely intense and requires a lot of thought about crowd control and positioning as every character is acting in tandem. You can't just take out problematic enemies before their turn comes up. You have to be prepared for anything at any time. It makes trash mobs actually important as they can swarm more vulnerable characters and tear them apart in seconds due to sheer numbers. It makes having frontline characters that can pull aggro and block choke points super important as well as tons of weird and interesting buffs and debuffs and crow control spells.

Older series and games most are probably more familiar with that relied on D&D rulesets were extremely flawed and not without issues because they were trying to use a TB combat system for a real time video game, but games that actually developed rulesets for video games and RTwP style combat are amazing experiences. Dragon Age is pretty basic, but Origins and DA2 had some great combat for beginners that allow for some really enjoyable party coordination and combos. Obsidian really knocked it out of the park though with Pillars, Tyranny, and then perfected it with Pillars 2. The combat in that game is superb and the pinnacle of RTwP for cRPGs. The progression of your party and myriad of ways you can develop and customize your characters is amazing. And it is beyond rewarding to see how you progress as a group to just steamrolling certain encounters, which is critical to the experience. Not every encounter needs to be a massive challenge, these are narrative driven games as well, and conveying your sense of martial progression is an important part of your character's development, as well as just a useful means of story telling in certain situations.

Some encounters are meant to be fast and RTwP truly allows for that with some fights lasting barely a minute with little to no pausing or direct commands needed. You and your party have reached a point where certain enemies just don't pose a real threat to you. Which then helps to highlight how truly difficult and tough other fights are where they can last 40 minutes and requires tons of pausing and micro managing. That's the beauty of RTwP when done right it's so incredibly flexible and can really provide a variety of combat experience in one game.

Then for more action oriented games stuff like Mass Effect and FF7R it is critical to party/squad based mechanics that make up the combat of those games in order for you and your team to effectively work together and coordinate attacks and abilities to really take enemies apart. The loss of that party control was a massive error on Andromeda's part which significantly harmed the combat experience. Again same things applies here. Some fights can just be straight up slaughters where you and your team just plow through enemies, but on tougher encounters and boss fights you have that option and ability to really be strategic with your actions and pull off super satisfying combos with your teammates.
 
Last edited:

Exposure

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,656
If you're pulling out Mass Effect as an example of RTwP I feel like there's a point which you're stretching the definition past how most people use it and you have long since crossed it.

(I do agree that games that are deliberately RTwP from the get go can work but these threads are almost always a subtweet of games like Baldur's Gate/the Pathfinder cRPGs/basically every single attempt at making a turn-based tabletop ruleset work in a RTwP setting and frankly they completely deserve it: the benefits that can be gained do not outweigh the "you are trying to get a turn-based system to work in real time without altering the systems designed to be worked out at a turn-based pace" problems)
 

His Majesty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,171
Belgium
they can both be fun

both can also be bad

e.g. FF7R is really bad but Deadfire is really good

e.g. Persona 5 is really bad but Divinity OS2 is really good
 
Feb 16, 2018
2,685
the D&D-simulation RPGs just have bad combat systems. that is what real-time with pause tends to refer too, but actual real-time games that let you issue orders during pause are fine (eg. FTL / age of empires)
 
OP
OP
Drachen

Drachen

Member
May 3, 2021
5,743
The sentiment I'm getting from the thread is that RTwP is pretty great when you have direct character control over their movement with WASD or a thumbstick like in FFXII, 7R, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, KOTOR, etc.
This might actually be it because I love all of those games (except KOTOR, never played it). Maybe I DON'T hate RTwP?!
 

His Majesty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,171
Belgium
My least favourite combat system is turn-based without any form of positioning, e.g. Persona 5. It's overly simplistic and battles take way too long.
 

5taquitos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,893
OR
Horrible opinion and thread. Truly shameful. RTwP to me is the greatest for party based tactical RPGs and for party based action RPGs. Traditional TB can all too often become painfully slow and tedious as a single round of combat can take ages when accounting for your party size, enemy party size, various animations and especially movement and positioning. It's great when super fast paced like many JRPGs, but once you throw in character positioning and movement shit can go sideways fast. I really tried to like DOS 1/2 but they just tested my patience far too much. I don't need to spend 40 minutes to an hour on a non-boss fight simply because it takes 15 minutes just to go through a single round of combat.

RTwP also I think does a much better job of approximating how combat actually works and feels. Games are inherently artificial, there's no getting around that, but TB feels excessively so in many cases. While full on real time just is too chaotic and lacks the ability to really coordinate your fights in detail. RTwP can be extremely intense and requires a lot of thought about crowd control and positioning as every character is acting in tandem. You can't take out problematic enemies before they're turn comes up. You have to be prepared for anything at any time. It makes trash mobs actually important as they can swarm more vulnerable characters and tear them apart in seconds due to sheer numbers. It makes having frontline characters that can pull aggro and block choke points super important as well as tons of weird and interesting buffs and debuffs and crow control spells.

Older series and games most are probably more familiar with that relied on D&D rulesets were extremely flawed and not without issues because they were trying to use a TB combat system for a real time video game, but games that actually developed rulesets for video games and RTwP style combat are amazing experiences. Dragon Age is pretty basic, but Origins and DA2 had some great combat for beginners that allow for some really enjoyable party coordination and combos. Obsidian really knocked it out of the park though with Pillars, Tyranny, and then perfected it with Pillars 2. The combat in that game is superb and the pinnacle of RTwP for cRPGs. The progression of your party and myriad of ways you can develop and customize your characters is amazing. And it is beyond rewarding to see how you progress as a group to just steamrolling certain encounters, which is critical to the experience. Not every encounter needs to be a massive challenge, these are narrative driven games as well, and conveying your sense of martial progression is an important part of your character's development, as well as just a useful means of story telling in certain situations.

Some encounters are meant to be fast and RTwP truly allows for that with some fights lasting barely a minute with little to no pausing or direct commands needed. You and your party have reached a point where certain enemies just don't pose a real threat to you. Which then helps to highlight how truly difficult and tough other fights are where they can last 40 minutes and requires tons of pausing and micro managing. That's the beauty of RTwP when done right it's so incredibly flexible and can really provide a variety of combat experience in one game.

Then for more action oriented games stuff like Mass Effect and FF7R it is critical to party/squad based mechanics that make up the combat of those games in order for you and your team to effectively work together and coordinate attacks and abilities to really take enemies apart. The loss of that party control was a massive error on Andromeda's part which significantly harmed the combat experience. Again same things applies here. Some fights can just be straight up slaughters where you and your team just plow through enemies, but on tougher encounters and boss fights you have that option and ability to really be strategic with your actions and pull off super satisfying combos with your teammates.
This post is drenched in cold, hard truth.
 

AbsoluteZ3R0

Member
Feb 5, 2019
886
I love rtwp but hate how encounters are designed in these games. Like in pathfinder and pathfider filling dungemos with trash mob after trash mob that you just let the game autopilot. On the harder fights you are pausing to the point where its pretty much a turn based game. I would have loved rtwp much before if the encounters were designed like divinity os2, where encounters are significantly reduced and each is designed like a puzzle than randomly throwing enemies in dungeon.
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,471
Something to consider too, is that real-time with pause actually provides a tremendous accessibility benefit.

If you have an exclusively real time system then that can be quite demanding on reaction times, and also people with other disabilities such as a motor disability may take longer to perform an action because of something like how they hold a controller. In those instances, real time with pause can be a good way of helping people keep up to speed with the expected pace of the gameplay.

That said, it doesn't seem to provide any accessibility benefit over turn based. I think turn based is better in that regard, in fact. For accessibility, purely real time with no options to slow can be quite inaccessible, and purely turn based ends up being a huge accessibility benefit. Of course that does not mean you need to design your game as rtwp from the ground up, there are other ways to add features like that or similar, such as The Last of Us and its slow-down time accessibility setting.

Still, always something to consider in these discussions is how the design itself impacts accessibility. If your starting out with the idea that your game is a rtwp then you have some accessible design baked in, but if you are designing something purely real time, then you may need to put more focus on accessibility settings.
 

jtb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,065
I like RTWP when executed well, whether in RPGs or more strategy based games like EU4/Stellaris/CK/etc.

I love turn based, especially turn based tactics, but halfway through the game it either gets incredibly repetitive or incredibly tedious, or both. I don't want to deal with micromanaging encounters with, for example, a sewer rat when I'm level 20. RTWP can streamline that.
 

Deleted member 93841

User-requested account closure
Banned
Mar 17, 2021
4,580
One thing that a lot of people in this thread seem to miss is that RtwP can be very difficult and overwhelming for many people. It's telling that some of the most-mentioned RtwP games in this thread are relatively simple games, mechanically speaking, including some that barely count as RtwP.

Thanks god Larian went full turn based with BG3. The worst part of any rtwp rpg game is the combat system. How can i role play anyone if the game doesnt give me the time and the feedback of my actions to do so? Turn based combat is the best to >actually roleplay< which is the intention of a >role playing game<

I'm one of those jackasses who went around smug-posting in threads complaining about BG3 not being RtwP. Turn-based fans unite! There are dozens of us!
 

Xero grimlock

Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,946
I agree I've always hated baldurs hate combat and I played it when it came out. Though new games have gotten better at the fight rest nonstop. Also the original cross absolutely have fodder Enemies
 

SixelAlexiS

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,731
Italy
FF7 Remake is one of the funnier games I played in past years. It has balancing issues that need to be addressed (you can abuse waiting for the bars to fill up a bit too much) but the base gameplay works and is a lot of fun.
 

EarthPainting

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,877
Town adjacent to Silent Hill
I'm not big on combat in games in general, but RTwP in the style of old Bioware or Black Isle titles is a strong contender of my least liked flavour of combat. Hard to say though if that's due to the style or flow itself, or if I associate it with the accompanying fiddly UIs and how easily it is to lose track of all the pieces in play. I pretty much always end up wishing those games were fully turn-based, and that these games had far far less combat all-together.

If it's an action game that pauses when you give a rare command to a party member or use an item, like in a Tales game or something, that's totally fine in my book. I don't know if those count as RTwP though.
 

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,785
Detroit, MI
It's funny you mention Pillars 2 because turn-based is a significantly worse way to play the game. The combat system and encounters were not designed for the slower pace of turn-based battles. The game is incredibly tedious in that mode.

RTWP is perfectly fine in the Obsidian games and honestly most games that use it.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,362
Literally the worst thread literally of all time literally ever. OP should literally be banned for this opinion.

Real Time With Pause is factually the best style of combat in gaming, combining the strategy and tactical elements of turn based systems with the chaos and intensity of real time systems, meaning you get all of that combat goodness without each fight with random skeleton mobs taking longer than D:OS's plot took to write. You get fights that keep you on your feet, drive up the excitement and drama of being there in the combat, while also letting you take a breath, pause and consider your options before implementing them and seeing your orders change the combat in your favour.
Literally the worst post of all time literally ever. Uzzy should be literally banned for this opinion.

Real Time With Pause is factually the worst style of combat in gaming, combining the worst flaws of turn-based system with the worst aspects of real-time systems, meaning you get none of the take-your-time tactical goodness and your action flow is constantly interrupted by the need to ping the menu. You get fights that have none of the excitement of action hits with its impactful feedback and none of the careful and meticulous puzzle solving of turn-based, making for a grating, boring and utterly tedious experience.

i'm not being serious. it's just facetious hyperbole lol.
That's too bad. I reluctantly withdraw my sword, then. I thought you were cool. 😢

yeah FF7R has some of the best combat ever in a game
🤮
 

Uzzy

Gabe’s little helper
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,210
Hull, UK
Literally the worst post of all time literally ever. Uzzy should be literally banned for this opinion.

Real Time With Pause is factually the worst style of combat in gaming, combining the worst flaws of turn-based system with the worst aspects of real-time systems, meaning you get none of the take-your-time tactical goodness and your action flow is constantly interrupted by the need to ping the menu. You get fights that have none of the excitement of action hits with its impactful feedback and none of the careful and meticulous puzzle solving of turn-based, making for a grating, boring and utterly tedious experience.

Don't worry, I have worse opinions.
 

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,785
Detroit, MI
Literally the worst post of all time literally ever. Uzzy should be literally banned for this opinion.

Real Time With Pause is factually the worst style of combat in gaming, combining the worst flaws of turn-based system with the worst aspects of real-time systems, meaning you get none of the take-your-time tactical goodness and your action flow is constantly interrupted by the need to ping the menu. You get fights that have none of the excitement of action hits with its impactful feedback and none of the careful and meticulous puzzle solving of turn-based, making for a grating, boring and utterly tedious experience.


That's too bad. I reluctantly withdraw my sword, then. I thought you were cool. 😢


🤮

FF7R is also a top 5 FF and better than the original. Just an all around master class effort.
 

Spacejaws

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,816
Scotland
Literally the worst post of all time literally ever. Uzzy should be literally banned for this opinion.

Real Time With Pause is factually the worst style of combat in gaming, combining the worst flaws of turn-based system with the worst aspects of real-time systems, meaning you get none of the take-your-time tactical goodness and your action flow is constantly interrupted by the need to ping the menu. You get fights that have none of the excitement of action hits with its impactful feedback and none of the careful and meticulous puzzle solving of turn-based, making for a grating, boring and utterly tedious experience.


That's too bad. I reluctantly withdraw my sword, then. I thought you were cool. 😢


🤮
Realtime is plenty tactical. Boss fights in Pathfinder are pretty brutal and need to be thought out carefully often controlling each character meticulously between actions. Realtime also has a lot of really unique approaches like spacing your team out, having your high evasion character lure some meathead into a trap like web and then all your characters pop into range spaced out in a circle and pepper them with arrows while their mobility is fucked. Not sure I've ever played a turn based game that's given me that kind of freedom. Also one of the reasons I loved Baldurs Gate Seige of Dragonspear is that they put some thought into the encounters and how to tackle them.