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Is PC going to be a bottleneck for the first few next-gen games?
- Thread starter Kieli
- Start date
Apparently developers don't even need to take advantage of it, it's just there, they don't have to master it like mastering playstation 3's cell processor. So a Sony first party dev making a fast moving character/vehicle, a open world, a dense world with a lot of different art, or whatever, it will just be easy for them to make it happen. They won't have to do hallway or cave tricks to wait for loading, or change the design of their world to just use a standard fire hydrant like the Spider-Man item duplication trick.
Also PS5 will be familiar and easy to develop for so Sony's first party will likely be able to stretch their legs on the system. Spider-Man 2, and Horizon 2 are the ones I want to see the most, especially Horizon ZD 2. Whatever Bluepoint games is working on might impress, they seemed very proud of it, and they've been quiet for a long time now.
yes but the SSD on the PS5 is far beyond your average SSD,
most PCs don't even support PCIE 4.0 not to mention their fancy highly integrated controller that is beyond what is realistically for a PC right now.
The talk about how fast the SSD is needs to stop because that's not where Sony made the headway. It's how it's hooked up to all other other components and how they communicate. It's the pipeline and the brain of the SSD not how fast it just reads and writes.
Right now on any PC in the world you cannot get 4GB of data from the SSD to the RAM in less than a second. The idea behind this throughput is that it eliminates LODs for the most part. PC games will probably just compensate by keeps LODs.
Right now on any PC in the world you cannot get 4GB of data from the SSD to the RAM in less than a second. The idea behind this throughput is that it eliminates LODs for the most part. PC games will probably just compensate by keeps LODs.
Modern games won't be next gen certainly not next gen exclusives which won't be dealing with duplicate data
We've talked about ram drive in other topics. last time it came up was DD5 topic IIRC. Any pc gamer with it has a better option and it's pretty easy thing to manipulate, so what if other consumers don't enjoy doesn't stop me or others who have for 2 generations used the ability. power users and features are never about popularity.
You can take advantage of them at 24GB its very easy after 32GB and you only need certain assets not the whole title.
I already said it I'm making a system with tons of ram so I can keep multiple games loaded, it's gonna be bliss. It's realistic enough for anyone like myself and I've already made posts in other topic talking about how PS5 is great for power user like myself
It's about as feasible for consumers as backing up game data. You don't do much and in time if MS does nothing I can easily see valve leaving in a tool to offer this for gamers. This more comes down to a gamer rig and is a plus more than a standard, but people doing ram drives for gaming or non gaming are a known power tweak for the last two gens, basically since windows NT itself.
OP
OP
Didn't Commander Keen have to fake parallax scrolling on PC because it didn't have the hardware to do it properly on PC?
Not even the PS6 will be able to match the PS5 tbh, what chances does PC have? Just alien technology there at Sony and for only X99$!
Ps5 exclusives will be held back by PC by not being released on pc.
Maybe I missed something, but is Sony planning to release all their exclusives on same day on pc too?
Why are people not talking about Xbox specs and discussing how that gonna impact pc games?
Maybe I missed something, but is Sony planning to release all their exclusives on same day on pc too?
Why are people not talking about Xbox specs and discussing how that gonna impact pc games?
OP, I think it'd be infinitely more useful to just wait and see what the PS5 is pushing before making threads like this. No one, except a few devs on here, is likely to actually know the specifics enough to offer useful feedback.
Honest question. Is PS5s weaker CPU and GPU going to bottleneck multiplatforms in a couple of years or SSD will level the difference in that department too?
Well, yeah. Consoles have been the lowest common for so long now so its only natural that with new advances in game consoles technology PC has to slowly adapt and then surpass.
Wonder if RAM requirements will go through the roof or PC will just have to get PCIE 4 to keep up.
Wonder if RAM requirements will go through the roof or PC will just have to get PCIE 4 to keep up.
I really don't see this causing any issue in my opinion. Unless I seriously missed the memo, I don't see the big deal of still having the game loaded in to RAM or VRAM. Smart loading of scene data that isn't being used into RAM isn't going away, and if you're loading objects way past the average RAM threshold into your scene, that's going to get very ridiculously space expensive over time, your game is going be gigantic on actual non volatile storage. Like I said in the UE5 demo thread, that's cool you can have a billion poly object in game be decimated real time, but who is actually going to want that outside of the professional space? Objects before I decimate for Unity in the million poly range quickly hit 100mb each. When you need 1000's of objects for actual big games, that's just silly.
I think having less LOD, less smart loading code, and less care in how your scene is laid out to cater to hardware is a nice thing for developers, but I don't see how this is impossible to deal with, and I'm skeptical about needing your entire SSD basically be a RAM disk at all times due to game size ballooning. Or I could be wrong and maybe they'll show something amazing with the tech, I dono but from my experience that's how I would deal with it with slower drives on PC if I had to tackle the problem: More LOD, better smart streaming, lower overall detail quality if absolutely need be (expected RAM size can't fit the scene at a low detail setting).
I think having less LOD, less smart loading code, and less care in how your scene is laid out to cater to hardware is a nice thing for developers, but I don't see how this is impossible to deal with, and I'm skeptical about needing your entire SSD basically be a RAM disk at all times due to game size ballooning. Or I could be wrong and maybe they'll show something amazing with the tech, I dono but from my experience that's how I would deal with it with slower drives on PC if I had to tackle the problem: More LOD, better smart streaming, lower overall detail quality if absolutely need be (expected RAM size can't fit the scene at a low detail setting).
Hearing this over and over again with no actual games announced to lead by example is tiring. A demo with unknown specifications (file size, hard data on total system utilization) showcasing two new technologies said to also run PC and Xbox Series X doesn't paint an accurate picture of what multi-platform gaming will be like next gen. It's only really a discussion if Marvel's Spiderman 2 and other tentpole exclusives have a snowballs chance in hell of coming to PC or Xbox.
For real, I feel like some people here think the PS5 invented SSDs or fast i/o.
Alright, just some stuff:
It's not because a solution isn't released yet on PC that it doesn't exist yet.
For instance, yes, for now, software dictate how those NVME drives are used. Things are the way they are because, for now, it is not required to have something different.
But that's also why both GPU vendors but also API makers are actually working on that kind of solutions. They've been doing research for years, even before the PS5 was announced, in that department.
If a game needs faster I/O, you can be sure that those solutions will be ready on PC for when those games release.
In 2016 already, AMD was exploring using an NVME drive to feed the vram of a GPU with the Radeon SSG.
Nvidia too recently was talking about the very same idea:
devblogs.nvidia.com
Heck, Microsoft also announced stuff in that direction for DX12 Ultimate, with DirectStorage API and SFS.
Some people truly believe that something is being discovered here ?
Some people truly believe that developpers and GPU vendors/API makers never communicate ? That a PS5 came from the sky and that they discovered the light ?
Alright, just some stuff:
It's not because a solution isn't released yet on PC that it doesn't exist yet.
For instance, yes, for now, software dictate how those NVME drives are used. Things are the way they are because, for now, it is not required to have something different.
But that's also why both GPU vendors but also API makers are actually working on that kind of solutions. They've been doing research for years, even before the PS5 was announced, in that department.
If a game needs faster I/O, you can be sure that those solutions will be ready on PC for when those games release.
In 2016 already, AMD was exploring using an NVME drive to feed the vram of a GPU with the Radeon SSG.
Nvidia too recently was talking about the very same idea:
GPUDirect Storage: A Direct Path Between Storage and GPU Memory | NVIDIA Technical Blog
As AI and HPC datasets continue to increase in size, the time spent loading data for a given application begins to place a strain on the total application’s performance. When considering end-to-end…
devblogs.nvidia.com
Heck, Microsoft also announced stuff in that direction for DX12 Ultimate, with DirectStorage API and SFS.
Some people truly believe that something is being discovered here ?
Some people truly believe that developpers and GPU vendors/API makers never communicate ? That a PS5 came from the sky and that they discovered the light ?
What is a serious PC gamer? I don't have an SSD, what does that make me?
Or... By adressing that in term of software. Or... By having more ram, which they already do.
- The specs of both consoles were unknown
- Specs revealed
- XSX with a considerable computing power advantage
- Cerny talks about SSDs
- Deep dive into proprietary SSD and efficient I/O
- Now the SSD and I/O are the new unknown
- Imaginations run wild
People aren't talking about the XSX because it (and the PS5) are build like mid-spec modern PCs. There's an unknown factor to the PS5, so people are booking one-way tickets to Fantasy Island before we even get a lick of an example of what the PS5's architecture will bring. I'm excited for the PS5 reveal. I'm hungry for more information. But people are talking about the PS5 more because of the unknown and because of hype.
I think it's part PC and part current generation consoles.
The single most important change is the SSD. Developing with the assumption of an SSD as a baseline fundamentally alters how games are constructed. I have no idea if in 2 years new games will be made with that as the baseline and whatever PC games don't have an SSD will be screwed/need extra optimization or if it will continue to be a bottleneck. I'm going to save it's the former because I want the industry to move forward and have less headache working around HDD limitations.
The single most important change is the SSD. Developing with the assumption of an SSD as a baseline fundamentally alters how games are constructed. I have no idea if in 2 years new games will be made with that as the baseline and whatever PC games don't have an SSD will be screwed/need extra optimization or if it will continue to be a bottleneck. I'm going to save it's the former because I want the industry to move forward and have less headache working around HDD limitations.
Everything first party on Series X is launching on PC too. If they can do it I'm sure the third parties will be just fine. Min req may include an SSD though.
Any game that's built from the ground up to take full advantage of PS5's SSD is going to be PS5 exclusive. So no, there won't be any "holding back" going on.
Why is everyone acting like every video game is suddenly going to require gigabytes of data being streamed in every few seconds? Ya'll know that's not going to happen, right?
Why is everyone acting like every video game is suddenly going to require gigabytes of data being streamed in every few seconds? Ya'll know that's not going to happen, right?
I'm kind of out of the loop here, is XSX getting these IO upgrades too? If it's just getting a fast SSD then it seems like cross platform developers would be stopped from doing anything too crazy that a PC with a good SSD wouldn't be able to acheive.
You are correct. XSX does not have those PS5 tier IO upgrades.
Unfortunately yes...and there will be 5 - 30 more until it's released
Ask Digital Foundry how well their 2GB 750ti, dual-core i3, 8GB ram 2014 €600 PC runs the latest call of duty, assassins creed or RDR2 compared to the 2013 €399 PS4.
Hint: the last few years they never even mentioned their 750ti again.
If games in 2013 were designed around PS4 hardware, then yes indeed, PC would have been quite a big bottleneck.
2013 games however were designed around 2005 console hardware, which is why even cheap PCs were able to run them great from the start.
2020 games will be designed around 2013 Xbox One hardware, so my conclusion is:
No, PC will not be a bottleneck, after a few years 2020 PC hardware might, but at that point available hardware will far outclass either console.
Multi platform games will not take advantage of the SSD and I am sure next year in 2021 I can build a PC for around €1000 which will surpass the PS5. It might even last until PS5 Pro, when I need a €500 GPU upgrade to match it.
PS5 will have cost 4 years of PS+ so €200 plus €500 for the PS5 and €500 for the PS5 Pro,
Total €1200, while PC will have been €1500
That €300 extra provides me with Steam, being able to choose my settings, real backwards compatibility, and also the option to run Davinci Resolve. So PC gaming for me will be about the same price as PS5
Hint: the last few years they never even mentioned their 750ti again.
If games in 2013 were designed around PS4 hardware, then yes indeed, PC would have been quite a big bottleneck.
2013 games however were designed around 2005 console hardware, which is why even cheap PCs were able to run them great from the start.
2020 games will be designed around 2013 Xbox One hardware, so my conclusion is:
No, PC will not be a bottleneck, after a few years 2020 PC hardware might, but at that point available hardware will far outclass either console.
Multi platform games will not take advantage of the SSD and I am sure next year in 2021 I can build a PC for around €1000 which will surpass the PS5. It might even last until PS5 Pro, when I need a €500 GPU upgrade to match it.
PS5 will have cost 4 years of PS+ so €200 plus €500 for the PS5 and €500 for the PS5 Pro,
Total €1200, while PC will have been €1500
That €300 extra provides me with Steam, being able to choose my settings, real backwards compatibility, and also the option to run Davinci Resolve. So PC gaming for me will be about the same price as PS5
We're getting new CPUs, GPUs and SSDs on PC before the year is out. The gen for PC hardware will already have moved on by time the consoles launch.
Made in your Dreams.
It's going to take a while for these experiences to ship not because maximizing performance is so hard but because games simply take longer to produce. I'm more so worried about the cost, I'm trying to build a top of the line PC this fall.
Have you not payed attention the past few months? You cannot just design a game around XSX and PS5's IO architecture and simply scale it down to run on a PC with a HDD. As long as devs develop for HDD's, games will be held back. So let's hope requirements go up fast and SSD will be mandatory soon.
I agree but the point is that back during the lead-up to PS4's launch all of that sounded revolutionary and exotic to people. Back then too we had almost daily threads on GAF about how PS4's 'supercharged' architecture would leave PCs behind for years, about how the unified pool of GDDR5 memory would be this insurmountable hurdle for PCs to overcome. People were convinced, almost religiously so, that the PS4 would blow way PCs in terms of performance for years to come.
It's the same thing with the SSD. One aspect of the system has been overhyped so much that it has completely blinded people. It is literally the same exact thing that happens every single time we approach a new console launch, you can set your watch to it.
Why would they need to run on an HDD ?
For real, it's like it's a lot of people's first generation change.
How did people do before ?
How did people do when they had to move to GPUs with unified shaders ?
How did people do when DX11 GPUs were mandatory ?
How did people do when they needed 8GB of ram ?
People are acting like putting an SSD or even an NVME SSD is the end of the world.
I remember the craziness in 2013. How 8GB of GDDR5 was a game changer, that PCs cant catch up because of that PCIe bottleneck (wow PS4 GDDR5 is a big pool of memory at 176GB/S !!! PC ram is slower and GPUs have a bottleneck with the 14GB/s pcie bandwith !!!).
Heck despite Jaguar being slow, I also remember the 8 cores narrative. Every single time some people hear a new buzzword, it becomes the alpha and the omega.
It's not to downplay the benefits those hardware produce. They clearly do. But come on, people are acting like it's alien technology, exclusive to their platform, that cant be replicated in any way on other platforms.
Heck, I still remember the "low level API" hype on consoles back then. The draw calls bottleneck and shit.
The reason they don't talk about the 750Ti is because it is owned by 1.42% of the audience according to Steam's hardware survey. Most people have long since upgraded from it.