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Deleted member 2840

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,400
Making this thread for fellow junior member P-Tux7, here's his post:

I've noticed that many shows, from Simpsons to SpongeBob to She-Ra, not only now but for a few decades now, usually have the storyboards done in their country of origin, but usually send the actual animation work (the "in-betweens" of the various poses on the storyboards) to a studio in another country. This is apparently done to save on costs, because animators in countries like the U.S.A. are more apparently expensive than animators in countries like South Korea/China. My question is:

Isn't this unethical?

Here are a few observations of mine that, if they are indeed accurate observations, seem to point to outsourcing animation being unethical

1. It creates the idea that you deserve less money just because you live in a certain country.

2. Immigration - even though animators in the countries that get outsourced to can indeed survive on less money than countries like the U.S., this only applies if they STAY in the cheaper country. If that South Korean animator moves to the U.S., their dollars will not go as far as they would in South Korea. However, they did the same amount of work as someone who lives in the U.S. Why should they have less money?
And if the solution is "don't move to a more expensive country", why should that be disincentivized? This basically tells the animator to "keep working on our animated shows for cheap, but stay out of our country." If they're good enough to be hireable, why should they not have the resources to live in the country that is doing the hiring?

3. Even though it may be a "good gig" or whatever for animators in low cost of living countries, it's still cheap on the part of the companies and is insulting to animators who live in higher-cost countries. If someone in the U.S. NEEDS a higher salary than someone in South Korea to survive (without moving to South Korea themselves), it's not fair that they'll get passed over for someone who can afford to take the pay cut.

In short, I'm not trying to say "Oh my God! Companies are being cheap!" because there's nothing wrong with looking for the best price. However, it being okay to look for a bargain comes with a responsibility: that you aren't messing up the market. It's why we don't buy stolen goods just because they're cheap, because doing so incentivizes taking away profit from the company and makes people think that the "stolen" price, which the theives didn't have to pay for creating the goods, is the "true" price.
In the same way, I feel that outsourcing harms animators who want to immigrate to the U.S./Canada/Britain, and harms U.S./Canada/Britain animators who don't want to move. Outsourcing perpetrates the idea that you should get treated differently based on the circumstances of your birth.
 

Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
I see it for a lot of shows, the show literally doesn't have the budget to pay for good animators so for the show to exist they outsource it for cheaper, or pay less for lower quality local animators.
 

Regulus Tera

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,458
I don't think this is an issue with animation itself, but rather the realities of outsourcing in general.
 

SnakeXs

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,111
Why is this limited to animation? Outsourcing labor where it's cheaper is common across any large, cost-cutting company (ie all of them) where it's an option.
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,990
That's just how the world works. Do you want to see 50%+ less animated content because that's what happens without outsourcing.
 

Lunaray

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,731
Outsourcing perpetrates the idea that you should get treated differently based on the circumstances of your birth.

That's not outsourcing, that has everything to do with capitalism and tribalistic concepts of nation states. Outsourcing (and the fact that capital is allowed to flow across borders more easily than human beings) is simply a feature of this system.
 

lazygecko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,628
"Proper" animation has always been expensive, grueling work that requires lots of individuals. Since the entire animation industry contracted with the rise of alternatives (ie CGI) I imagine the domestic work force today may not even be large enough in the first place.
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
It's no more unethical than absolutely any other form of outsourcing.

So, is Outsourcing itself unethical?

Well, that's a hard question to answer, i live in mexico, a shit ton of jobs in here rely on the fact that the USA is outsourcing them, hell, Outsourcing was the way i had my first job when i first started living on my own and i was paid a liveable wage that not only covered my housing needs, but it also left enough money to sustain my expensive videogame hobby.

So is outsourcing unethical? I do not think so.

Are animation conditions in asia unethical? Well i don't know about Korea, but multiple sources have constantly proved Japan pretty much has an unethical animation industry for the bulk of the animation grunt work.
 

FUME5

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,421
Do you have any idea about how this whole capitalism thing works?

I can't tell whether this is disingenuous or just moronic moralising.
 

MikeHattsu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,933
"Proper" animation has always been expensive, grueling work that requires lots of individuals. Since the entire animation industry contracted with the rise of alternatives (ie CGI) I imagine the domestic work force today may not even be large enough in the first place.

CGI (and VFX) is outsourced as well
 

Elderly Parrot

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Aug 13, 2018
3,146
Are you writing on a phone or computer. You are already too deep in outsourcing. Run live in the bushes.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,945
That's part of being in the global economy. Animation is no more complicit in it than any other industry.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,173
animation has been done in korea for as long as i've been alive, if not longer. not that that makes it right but kinda par for the course. i doubt it's like sewing down Nikes for 5 Yuan an hour or whatever
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
af8.jpg
 

Stillmatic

Member
Oct 28, 2017
511
Melbourne, Australia
There's another side to outsourcing, it's not just done to save costs. Sometimes it is a necessity due to your studio not having enough employees to do the work. Or you want your studio to work on something new, so you contract another to continue work supporting an older product (gaming).

In some cases it can be more expensive.
 

MikeHattsu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,933
animation has been done in korea for as long as i've been alive, if not longer. not that that makes it right but kinda par for the course. i doubt it's like sewing down Nikes for 5 Yuan an hour or whatever

Well, some of it gets further outsourced to North Korea though:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEK_Studio

SEK Studio has subcontracted over 250 Foreign Animations. They mainly work on subcontracting Italian, French, Spanish and Chinese animation. American animation is outsourced in an indirect way.

According to DVD commentary and IMDB, 2007's The Simpsons Movie was the most prominent US project that SEK helped with. Other projects include Futurama: Bender's Big Score and even an episode of Avatar: The Last Airbender.
 

TheMango55

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
5,788
I don't know what to tell you, cost of living is a thing, even within the same country.

I probably make half as much at what I do as someone in San Francisco who does the same thing, but I probably have a nicer house than he does.
 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,631
"Proper" animation has always been expensive, grueling work that requires lots of individuals. Since the entire animation industry contracted with the rise of alternatives (ie CGI) I imagine the domestic work force today may not even be large enough in the first place.
Most CGI and VFX in movies is also outsourced. Take any random Marvel movie and you'll see that most of the VFX studios working on them are based in Europe, dig a little further and you'll find that most of them use assets created in India or China.
 

Minthara

Freelance Market Director
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
7,940
Montreal
Not only is a lot of animation outsourced and worked on by multiple teams, often competing for work, but it's also commonly freelanced by some of those outsourced studios in order to get their headcount or fill gaps on the team they might need to fill.

Source: Currently work in animation.

Even some of the biggest projects that you think are just one team these days are supplemented with freelancers and outsourcing.