Is Ori & The Will O’ The Wisps Pastiche or plagiarist?

[bounchfx]

man this thread really makes me appreciate being able to love both games. still stunned some people who like metroidvanias don't like hollow knight. like, it doesn't really compute to me, unless they gave up early on (I did this originally, so glad I went back and pushed through).

loving ori 2 so far. certainly felt like they were hk inspirations but it makes sense hearing the actual ones. I'm all for it. we are living in a metroidvania golden age. Hell, if nintendo does announce a new 2D Metroid I have a hard time believing it could even compete. Would love to see what they could bring to the table.

 

[Papercuts]

Dawn of sorrow has nearly the same mechanics and that came out years before hollow knight

stop it

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Yup. Thorn being reflected damage is pretty common in rpgs as well, like Diablo.

This thread reminds me of the constant Souls comparisons Hollow Knight got, but then when asked on what influenced them they didn't even play that game for it to be an influence. It was older games like Zelda 2, Castlevania, Super Metroid, etc. Influences come from MANY places and this thread is framed in an extremely shitty way.

 

[Green Mario]

"uncredited" systems. Jesus Christ. Have you played video games?

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All video games with a dedicated jump button must credit Donkey Kong from now on.

 

[lactatingduck]

I'm not even a big fan of Hollow Knight, so no, sorry to burst your bubble, but Hollow Knight wasn't really an inspiration. And I have no problem openly admitting what which games we're directly inspired by. The reason why we have a lot more NPCs in the game now is because people loved the Blind Forest characters and we wanted to expand upon that. Another reason was because we loved how Nintendo went from Zelda 1 to Zelda 3, where you suddenly had all these characters giving you clues and hints and all that stuff, so we decided to head into a similar direction. The Shard System is directly inspired by the Final Fantasy VII materia system and at some point in the game we literally had slots in all the skills that you inserted shards into - that became too cumbersome, so we turned it into a global system. The Melee stuff is inspired by Symphony of the Night and Dark Souls, mostly, those are games we looked at when it came to how to make the combat feel satisfying and crunchy - I didn't even like Hollow Knights simplistic combat, so why would I copy that? I mean, I get that fans might see similarities between the games, but I wasn't even a fan of the game when I played it, so...

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Thank you for replying. Era has a major problem with threads like these being created by people who appear to be under 15 years old and haven't played any games from before 2014. It is one thing for users to tell OP they're wrong, but having the actual dev stop in and bust a head is beautiful.

 

[Odeko]

So nonsensical "Hollow Knight invented [basic gameplay element]" statements are the next "Is this just Dark Souls but with [basic gameplay element]" is what I'm getting from the OP here.

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Saying X was inspired by Y is not the same as suggesting Y invented all the concepts.

 

[sabrina]

And Hollow Knight still looks better tbh

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It's a matter of taste. Personally I think they each have their strengths, but a lot of people I know share your opinion.

 

[mindsale]

I'm not even a big fan of Hollow Knight, so no, sorry to burst your bubble, but Hollow Knight wasn't really an inspiration. And I have no problem openly admitting what which games we're directly inspired by. The reason why we have a lot more NPCs in the game now is because people loved the Blind Forest characters and we wanted to expand upon that. Another reason was because we loved how Nintendo went from Zelda 1 to Zelda 3, where you suddenly had all these characters giving you clues and hints and all that stuff, so we decided to head into a similar direction. The Shard System is directly inspired by the Final Fantasy VII materia system and at some point in the game we literally had slots in all the skills that you inserted shards into - that became too cumbersome, so we turned it into a global system. The Melee stuff is inspired by Symphony of the Night and Dark Souls, mostly, those are games we looked at when it came to how to make the combat feel satisfying and crunchy - I didn't even like Hollow Knights simplistic combat, so why would I copy that? I mean, I get that fans might see similarities between the games, but I wasn't even a fan of the game when I played it, so...

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That's a pretty blunt appraisal of Hollow Knight. I don't disagree. It's definitely got stiffer and less satisfying combat than Wisps. (Which, tremendous game by the way - I enjoy it more than BF and HK).

You must've read a fair amount of reviewers no doubt point out comparisons between WotW and HK, though? You can see how the melee focus and itinerant mapmaker and various other pivots all happen to be in line with that game, a high water mark for the genre?

 

[Deleted member 3017]

Saying X was inspired by Y is not the same as suggesting Y invented all the concepts.

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It's a major problem when discussing games on this site. Happens all the time with a game like BotW, for example. Game is lauded for doing lots of interesting things with open world design, but since it didn't invent much (if anything), it's really not actually all that great, according to some.

I don't agree with OP's general point, but I also think it's very lazy and disingenuous to accuse him of claiming Hollow Knight invented everything he believes Ori took inspiration from.

 

[MrWindUpBird]

No one in this thread wants to address the actual developer lol. His post where he says "no, not really" is immediately followed by people saying its a clear inspiration/rip of HK lol

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No wonder developers have a hard time engaging with this community.

 

[Deleted member 20297]

Please, don't let OP know about Gran Turismo and Forza...

 

[ShiningBash]

No one is forgetting that Demon's Souls and King's Field exists when they talk about games taking inspiration from Dark Souls. All games are of course a combination of borrowed elements with a small handful of new ideas sprinkled on top, but when one is a smash hit and then a few years later you see major elements from it popping up all over it's not hard to see what happened.

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I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I think ppl jump to conclusions about what influenced devs/games too quickly. While it's likely that a highly popular game would influence a genre, I think ppl ignore the many possible sources of inspiration for devs. In this instance, the Moon Studios person explained what their thinking was, but all OP saw was HK.

 

[Budi]

I haven't played either game but I'm assuming that the thorn thing damages enemies that hit you? If so, that's common in some pretty old RPGs, including tabletop games.

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That's what it does in Hollow Knight atleast. I also remember the druid spell thorns from World of Warcraft, inflicts nature damage to any attacker.
Edit: Oh right, in Diablo too.

 

[Mentalist]

I mean, there is a shard called "Thorn" that does the exact same thing as Hollow Knight's similarly named charm. The similarities people are pointing out are not just down to "Metroidvania elements."

Not saying that they have done something wrong or bad, just trying to bring some measured understanding here.

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"Thorns" was an aura in ARPGs at least since Diablo 2 that does the exact same thing.

Your argument is invalid.

 

[Deleted member 8196]

I mean, there is a shard called "Thorn" that does the exact same thing as Hollow Knight's similarly named charm. The similarities people are pointing out are not just down to "Metroidvania elements."

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Thorns (Diablo III)

Thorns (a.k.a. Melee and ranged attackers take X damage) are a secondary statistic in Diablo III that can appear on any non-weapon item (although Neanderthal and Nailbiter weapons can roll Thorns as well). Thorns automatically damage enemies when they hit the player with any direct melee or...

diablo.fandom.com

You should play more games or...wait...did HOLLOW KNIGHT RIP-OFF DIABLO?

 

[Deleted member 3017]

No wonder developers have a hard time engaging with this community.

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Thomas has absolutely no problem criticizing other peoples' games publicly (which is perfectly fine btw). I'm sure he can deal with threads like these.

 

[thomasmahler]

You must've read a fair amount of reviewers no doubt point out comparisons between WotW and HK, though? You can see how the melee focus and itinerant mapmaker and various other pivots all happen to be in line with that game, a high water mark for the genre?

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I mean, Castlevania had swords and vendors that sell Maps long before Hollow Knight even existed, so this thread just makes me laugh :D Hollow Knight invented a spell for healing? Like what...

 

[Deleted member 8196]

You must've read a fair amount of reviewers no doubt point out comparisons between WotW and HK, though? You can see how the melee focus and itinerant mapmaker and various other pivots all happen to be in line with that game, a high water mark for the genre?

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Did you ever play Castlevania or literally any other Metroidvania not named Hollow Knight?

 

[More Butter]

Everything is built upon what was built before there is truly nothing new under the sun. Plagiarism is quite the accusation. Honestly the whole premise of the thread is pretty shitty. There is an active member on this site that built that game. It's naive to think there is no influences in various genres but fucking plagiarism? What the hell?

 

[thomasmahler]

Thomas has absolutely no problem criticizing other peoples' games publicly (which is perfectly fine btw). I'm sure he can deal with threads like these.

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I'm not being offended, I'm mostly just laughing about the premise here :D

I wasn't a huge fan of Hollow Knight when I played it and I explained which games we took inspiration from. It's all in good fun, but some theories here are just wild :D

 

[Master Chuuster]

It is pastiche, like every single game.

 

[mindsale]

I mean, Castlevania had swords and vendors that sell Maps long before Hollow Knight even existed, so this thread just makes me laugh :D Hollow Knight invented a spell for healing? Like what...

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That spell in both games feels so similar, though. You expend Energy on the Left for Health on the right and both enact a short charge with a pulse at the end. Neither can be performed aerially or underwater. It's not just "a heal."

 

[jett]

When WotW redoes its combat and includes identical uncredited systems and elements from Hollow Knight that weren't present in BF, it's a tougher pill for me to swallow.

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Oh the humanity!

 

[MrWindUpBird]

Thomas has absolutely no problem criticizing other peoples' games publicly (which is perfectly fine btw). I'm sure he can deal with threads like these.

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Okay? He clearly hasn't been scared off by the assholes on this forum so I'm obviously not talking about him. But frankly Thomas wrote two huge posts detailing the influences of Ori and people, like the OP, are completely ignoring that to claim it ripped of Hollow Knight. Don't be obtuse.

 

[More Butter]

I mean, Castlevania had swords and vendors that sell Maps long before Hollow Knight even existed, so this thread just makes me laugh :D Hollow Knight invented a spell for healing? Like what...

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Telling it how it is right here.

 

[Deleted member 3017]

I'm not being offended, I'm mostly just laughing about the premise here :D

I wasn't a huge fan of Hollow Knight when I played it and I explained which games we took inspiration from. It's all in good fun, but some theories here are just wild :D

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Yeah, I think you did a good job explaining your influences. I'm personally just thrilled games like Ori, Hollow Knight, Cuphead, Shovel Knight, etc. are able to exist and thrive in today's video game industry.

 

[Messofanego]

It's like OP only ever played modern metroidvanias...

 

[skillzilla81]

It's funny to me to see threads on this site where people don't appreciate older games, and also threads on this site where any influences are attributed to games released in the past 5 years or so.

 

[Dreamboum]

That's it OP, I've waited long enough. The high elders have judged you and now my pitchfork demands blood

 

[Wordstar]

I'm not even a big fan of Hollow Knight, so no, sorry to burst your bubble, but Hollow Knight wasn't really an inspiration. And I have no problem openly admitting what which games we're directly inspired by. The reason why we have a lot more NPCs in the game now is because people loved the Blind Forest characters and we wanted to expand upon that. Another reason was because we loved how Nintendo went from Zelda 1 to Zelda 3, where you suddenly had all these characters giving you clues and hints and all that stuff, so we decided to head into a similar direction. The Shard System is directly inspired by the Final Fantasy VII materia system and at some point in the game we literally had slots in all the skills that you inserted shards into - that became too cumbersome, so we turned it into a global system. The Melee stuff is inspired by Symphony of the Night and Dark Souls, mostly, those are games we looked at when it came to how to make the combat feel satisfying and crunchy - I didn't even like Hollow Knights simplistic combat, so why would I copy that? I mean, I get that fans might see similarities between the games, but I wasn't even a fan of the game when I played it, so...

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thomasmahler it goes quite a bit further than this.

Maybe you havent played your own game then? The Map maker? The Fly enemies? The Battle Chalenge Sections? The Nail? The Charms? I mean come on! Maybe your not a big fan of Hollow Knight but you sure did copy a lot of things! And thats not even a bad thing... Hollow Knight is awesome!

It is bad to deny it however.
So how about giving a little bit of Credit to Team Cherry instead of being this arrogant.

Its not a cool thing seeing the maker of one of your favorite games being like this. It just doesnt sit well with me.

 

[xxracerxx]

Is this a troll post? Aren't they sequels? lol

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This is the ultimate "not reading the OP" post.

 

[thomasmahler]

That spell in both games feels so similar, though. You expend Energy on the Left for Health on the right and both enact a short charge with a pulse at the end. Neither can be performed aerially or underwater. It's not just "a heal."

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Uhm. So here's how this works:

We wanted a healing spell in the game. We implemented a simple 'press button, Ori does a quick animation and the spell will cost energy to get life back' thing. The animators made a little healing animation. Then the FX guys came in and put some fx on top. You can't cast any spell underwater and we didn't want to do it in the air cause that allowed us to have fun with boss battles where the ground gets taken away mid-fight.

It's honestly nutty to think that we ripped off Hollow Knight because we implemented a healing spell in the game. I mean, we had an ability in Blind Forest to heal Ori when you cast a Soul Link, so... are you sure they didn't rip off Blind Forest? :D

 

[lactatingduck]

That spell in both games feels so similar, though. You expend Energy on the Left for Health on the right and both enact a short charge with a pulse at the end. Neither can be performed aerially or underwater. It's not just "a heal."

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The man told you where the inspiration comes from. The similarities can be explained in many other ways as other posters have done.

This was a bad thread that demonstrates your lack of knowledge of game history and iteration. If Hollow Knight and Ori draw from similar inspirations then it is likely they'd have similar outcomes without either being based on the other.

The actual creator has now told you your thread take is wrong. You can keep saying "but this is like this" and it won't change a thing.

 

[denx]

So how about giving a little bit of Credit to Team Cherry instead of being this arrogant.

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you fucking people good lord

 

[Deleted member 3093]

thomasmahler it goes quite a bit further than this.

Maybe you havent played your own game then? The Map maker? The Fly enemies? The Battle Chalenge Sections? The Nail? The Charms? I mean come on! Maybe your not a big fan of Hollow Knight but you sure did copy a lot of things!

So how about giving a little bit of Credit to Team Cherry instead of being this arrogant.

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Is this satire

Please, let this be satire

 

[Deleted member 3017]

Okay? He clearly hasn't been scared off by the assholes on this forum so I'm obviously not talking about him. But frankly Thomas wrote two huge posts detailing the influences of Ori and people, like the OP, are completely ignoring that to claim it ripped of Hollow Knight. Don't be obtuse.

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Very, very few people are ignoring what Thomas had to say, actually. You're painting the community with a very wide brush. If a thread like this, containing a premise almost every user on this forum disagrees with strongly, would cause a developer to stop engaging, that'd be really unfortunate, as it doesn't represent the users here on the whole. You're allowing some negative voices to drown out the overwhelming support this game is receiving here.

 

[mindsale]

The man told you where the inspiration comes from. The similarities can be explained in many other ways as other posters have done.

This was a bad thread that demonstrates your lack of knowledge of game history and iteration. If Hollow Knight and Ori draw from similar inspirations then it is likely they'd have similar outcomes without either being based on the other.

The actual creator has now told you your thread take is wrong. You can keep saying "but this is like this" and it won't change a thing.

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I'm admittedly off-base on that assumption of inspiration, I don't think the creator has any reason to deny influence of one game while attributing to other games. I'm awed by that convergent evolution that both games embraced so closely. All three of which are absolutely stellar experiences.

 

[Budi]

thomasmahler it goes quite a bit further than this.

Maybe you havent played your own game then? The Map maker? The Fly enemies? The Battle Chalenge Sections? The Nail? The Charms? I mean come on! Maybe your not a big fan of Hollow Knight but you sure did copy a lot of things! And thats not even a bad thing... Hollow Knight is awesome!

It is bad to deny it however.
So how about giving a little bit of Credit to Team Cherry instead of being this arrogant.

Its not a cool thing seeing the maker of one of your favorite games being like this. It just doesnt sit well with me.

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[Deleted member 3093]

Very, very few people are ignoring what Thomas had to say, actually. You're painting the community with a very wide brush. If an occasional thread like this, that almost every user on this forum disagrees with strongly, would cause a developer to stop engaging, that'd be really unfortunate, as it doesn't represent the users here on the whole.

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I mean there's that Wordstar guy who is literally accusing the developer of lying lol

 

[Deleted member 3017]

I mean there's that Wordstar guy who is literally accusing the developer of lying lol

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yeah, that's really dumb. There are absolutely some bad apples, no doubt. He doesn't come close to representing the views of this community as a whole though. Ori and Moon have a lot of love on Era and for good reason.

 

[Wordstar]

Yeah people... i just gotta speak my truth... And guess what? I love both Ori games. But i also love Hollow Knight.

 

[mindsale]

I mean there's that Wordstar guy who is literally accusing the developer of lying lol

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Pretty sure Wordstar is being sarcastic.

 

[Wordstar]

I mean come on people? Have you played hollow knight? Alone the map maker? Whats wrong with you people?

 

[Nali]

This reads like the game design equivalent of someone noticing two songs with similar chord progressions and immediately jumping to the conclusion that one must've ripped the other off.

Hollow Knight's brilliance stems mostly from its flawless execution of the elements that make for a good game in the genre, which was already well-worn ground by the time it came out. I haven't played WotW, but I'd assume most of its key improvements over Blind Forest stem from improving on those same elements, since BF was fairly tepid when it came to anything past its art and platforming.

 

[Budi]

Yeah people... i just gotta speak my truth... And guess what? I love both Ori games. But i also love Hollow Knight.

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You can still love Hollow Knight, director of Ori doesn't though. Which is absolutely fine, there's enough metroidvanias (and other games) to be inspired by. Don't take it as a personal slight that you don't like all the same games.

 

[Ravelle]

Weekend era on a thursday.

 

[HypedBulborb]

This is so dumb.

 

[ANNeFRANKxGOKU]

apparently having fly enemies makes you a ripoff of hollow knight

my god what is this thread

 

[Wordstar]

You can still love Hollow Knight, director of Ori doesn't though. Which is absolutely fine, there's enough metroidvanias (and other games) to be inspired by.

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He doesnt have to but they still copied a lot of things from the game. And thats not a problem. What rubs me wrong is not admitting it.

 

[Odeko]

This reads like the game design equivalent of someone noticing two songs with similar chord progressions and immediately jumping to the conclusion that one must've ripped the other off.

Hollow Knight's brilliance stems mostly from its flawless execution of the elements that make for a good game in the genre, which was already well-worn ground by the time it came out. I haven't played WotW, but I'd assume most of its key improvements over Blind Forest stem from improving on those same elements, since BF was fairly tepid when it came to anything past its art and platforming.

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It's a little deeper than that since both lean into Zelda and Souls influences which the average Metroidvania doesn't have, and that also fuels the comparison.

 

[mindsale]

apparently having fly enemies makes you a ripoff of hollow knight

my god what is this thread

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There were design commonalities that seemed extremely in-line with Hollow Knight and particularly out of sync with Blind Forest. It's not as tenuous a proposition as you make it out to be.

The developer has since insisted that those commonalities are just that.