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BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,033
If there is one thing the prequels were trying to make clear it's that the prequel era Jedis were arrogant assholes. They had become so prideful that they were blind to any criticisms or problems within the Order, they believed they had all the answers. This is in addition to their cold and detached demeanor which they wore like a badge of honor. Still, there are degrees to how bad the prequel era Jedis were from Obi-Wan who while still bought into the Order nonsense still questioned the decisions of the council and retained a certain level of close attachment to his friends and loved ones.

Yet, to me the complete opposite end of the spectrum, and I believe the worst Jedi in the Order, was Mace Windu. No one else embodies all the problems of the prequel Jedi like Mace Windu. This dude made cold and detached an art form. If you told him his best friend died (which is funny because he'd first have to have a friend) he'd give you the same reaction as if you'd told him someone at the last piece of cake. He was openly mistrustful, even of his fellow Jedi such as Anakin. He never seemed to give two shits about the lives of the Clones and treated them like fodder. And his last act is an attempt to break the Jedi Code to unilaterally execute an unarmed Palpatine without a trial based on his assessment of the political situation.

While others on the Council like Yoda or Plo-Koon began to see what was wrong with the Order, Mace Windu never questioned anything about the Order and bought full stop into Jedi righteousness. I think the lowest moment is when he
tries to bullshit some excuse after accusing Ahsoka of being a traitor and then that all turning out to be false. Dude is all like, "oh no, this was all just part of your trial. You see, it's all part of the plan." Even for Ahsoka that's too much of a reach and she tells them to buzz off.



Is there a Jedi worse than him in terms of overall attitude and ideals of the Jedi Order? And I mean specifically Jedi, if they turned to the Dark Side then they don't count.
"The true legacy of the Jedi is failure, hypocrisy and hubris," all of that is seen in this dude.

1467299700-windu-angry.jpg
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,623
TCW confirmed that Mace is an asshole. That second to last scene in S5 was such incredible bullshit.
 

Kard8p3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,272
Most of all the Jedi in the council had the views, problems, and were the same kind of asshole, Mace was at least a cool badass that was played by Samuel L. Jackson


Gonna have to echo the post above yours. Mace was the worst of all of them.

Dude couldn't stop huffing the farts.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,730
There are some canon EU stuff that goes into Mace, some of it is how he overcompensates with his rigid asshole demeanor because of how deathly scared he is of falling to the dark side because of his innate inner darkness via vaapad and seeing how other users of it fell.

Anakin pretty much embodies all the traits he tries so hard to keep locked down within himself so yeah......Anakin is the perfect guy to get under Mace's skin, he'll always assume the worst of Ani.
 

thecouncil

Member
Oct 29, 2017
12,341
I mean, Yoda is right there beside him.
Also treats Asohka like shit during that falling out.
Yoda blows during that entire time period too and is the top Jedi. Only reason he "begins to see what's wrong with the order" is because he doesn't die like Mace.
 

Tlozbj

Banned
Jun 26, 2020
608
Puerto Rico
At the moment, pretty much. Aside of also being one of the reasons why Palpatine got so easily to Anakin, specially with that divide and distrust he brought to the Council in relation to Anakin's figure at every possible moment.
 
Oct 31, 2017
6,747
He was openly mistrustful of Anakin Skywalker? *gasps* *faints*


You left out that he was right in the first place when he said they shouldn't train that kid; then maybe the Jedi Order wouldn't have fallen so bad that they've never recovered
 

Kard8p3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,272
He was openly mistrustful of Anakin Skywalker? *gasps* *faints*


You left out that he was right in the first place when he said they shouldn't train that kid; then maybe the Jedi Order wouldn't have fallen so bad that they've never recovered


If anything sidious would've pulled a maul and trained the kid in secret, then they'd likely be screwed even more
 

JigglesBunny

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
31,153
Chicago
He was fine as the straight shooter in the Order in the prequel trilogy. It wasn't until The Clone Wars that the depths of his bullshit got too deep to reasonably justify. Dude was a tool.
 
OP
OP
BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,033
I mean, Yoda is right there beside him.
Also treats Asohka like shit during that falling out.
Yoda blows during that entire time period too and is the top Jedi. Only reason he "begins to see what's wrong with the order" is because he doesn't die like Mace.

Nah, Yoda begins to see the light before shit hits the fan when he reconnects with Qui-Gon.

He was openly mistrustful of Anakin Skywalker? *gasps* *faints*


You left out that he was right in the first place when he said they shouldn't train that kid; then maybe the Jedi Order wouldn't have fallen so bad that they've never recovered

His open distrust further pushed Anakin to the Dark Side, he never fostered a good relationship with Anakin, it was always antagonistic.


Luminara probably was.

Also a good choice, she had the detachment but didn't bring the same level of antagonism and mistrust as Mace.
 

Tlozbj

Banned
Jun 26, 2020
608
Puerto Rico
He was openly mistrustful of Anakin Skywalker? *gasps* *faints*


You left out that he was right in the first place when he said they shouldn't train that kid; then maybe the Jedi Order wouldn't have fallen so bad that they've never recovered

Windu's distrust of Anakin IS what in part led to that fall. It was via that distrust and its implications how Palpatine began to slither into Anakin's mind. He gave Anakin the trust and confidence he yearned from the Council, but that Windu always made sure he never got. If Windu had simply trusted and had confidence in Anakin, Palpatine would had never turned him to the Dark Side so easily, if at all. Since in that scenario, Anakin wouldn't had ended up forming what basically was a father-son relationship with Sidious.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,401
How to write a flawed character:

"Now you may have almost been executed because we made a bad call and didn't trust you even though you've been a paragon of truth and justice for years...but actually this was your trial Ahsoka. "

How not to write a flawed character:
"Let's frame it as if killing the dude with lightning hands who orchestrated a war in secret and is literally named Sidious would make us as bad as the guy with lightning hands"
 

antonz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,309
Everyone knew Anakin was a special case and needed to be approached as such. Mace was having none of that shit in typical Samuel L Jackson character fashion. Even when Anakin does the right thing and turns over the Fact Palpatine is the bad guy to the Jedi. Mace is like bitch sit your ass down and maybe you will earn my trust.

Arrogance and such was the flaw of the Order as a whole. The Jedi spent 1000 years since the defeat of the Sith patting themselves on the back and not even attempting to adapt and evolve with time. Instead Politics crept in and they became more and more of a tool to be wielded by the Republic.

Meanwhile the Sith spent the 1000 years in exile refining themselves and adapting. Then Palpatine came along and realized he could use the Jedi as his own personal army all while setting them up for their defeat
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,788
Um, he basically already did; it was just out in the open.

Qui Gon & the Jedi basically hand delivered Anakin to the chancellor. They should have left his ass in the Outer Rim
There's an argument that if Qui-gon had been the one to train Anakin that he probably doesn't go dark side and that him dying was probably the moment Palpatine's plan won.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,401
There's an argument that if Qui-gon had been the one to train Anakin that he probably doesn't go dark side and that him dying was probably the moment Palpatine's plan won.
Dooku probably wouldn't have been turned either as Qui Gon's death was the final straw. Palpatine really would've been SoL if made didn't get a cheap kill.

I forgot about Luminara, what did she do?

I remember discussing how shit she was at some point
Luminara on the possible death of Ahsoka and her own padawan while Anakin is having a meltdown:
412095243_1280x720.jpg
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
I think it makes for far better writing/interesting character than if all we had was his PT development.
 

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,665
Costa Rica
Dooku probably wouldn't have been turned either as Qui Gon's death was the final straw. Palpatine really would've been SoL if made didn't get a cheap kill.


Luminara on the possible death of Ahsoka and her own padawan while Anakin is having a meltdown:
412095243_1280x720.jpg

Oh...RIGHT.

I only remember her corpse fucking over many surviving Jedi/Padawan and leading them to their death or torture...
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,730
Luminara's death is fucked up.

She survived Order 66, ended up captured by the Inquisitors where she was presumably tortured and then executed, then her mummified body was kept as a lure so Jedi who escaped O66 would seek her out and fall into a trap.
 

Callibretto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,495
Indonesia
So if Mace Windu comes back in Mandalorian or future Starwars media, would he be a villain, or mellow down and realize his failure?
 

TheXbox

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,566
I give Mace enormous slack because he is the only unapologetically badass Jedi, but he is indeed a tool. No one on the Council comes out looking good except Plo Koon.
 

Rirse

Member
Jun 29, 2019
2,016
Speaking of Luminara, did anything ever happen to her apprentice who
frame Ashoka for a terrorist bombing.
They are never shown again afterwards.
 

Deleted member 1698

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,254
He was 100% right in the prequels.

The other jedi were morons. He would have saved the day if it wasn't for the actual worst jedi betraying him and turning to the darkside.

Before that old Darth was still a jedi breaking all the rules, bitching about sand and killing younglings.
 

Rackham

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,532
His open distrust further pushed Anakin to the Dark Side, he never fostered a good relationship with Anakin, it was always antagonistic.
Anakin literally went from that scene to killing kids in the next. Mace was right about him. Nothing that anyone did, short of bending over for Anakin and Palpatine would have made a difference with how Anakin would have turned out.
 

Thequietone

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,052
As soon as they it was a green skinned jedi you knew it was Luminara
Yoda is head jedi and he has learn the technique of being a fucking human (alien but you know what i mean)
I don't know. Yoda did tell Anakin that he shouldn't mourn the death of his friend's death he saw in a vision rather he should rejoice in the fact his friend (Padme) would be joining the force.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
Edit: damn I misread.

I like Mace in the movies cus he was an asshole but he was an asshole who was confidently correct and his arrogance lead to his participation in pushing the downfall of himself and the order.
 

Woozies

Member
Nov 1, 2017
19,004
What exactly was wrong with the order?
It's one of those 'tell don't show' things of Star Wars.

The basic gist is that they're very detached emotionally and bureaucratically rigid.


It kinda makes sense, but it also kinda doesn't make sense when you contrast them with the Universe at large. It's especially baffling when you consider moral choices of people in contrast to the order that george Lucas makes that are just baffling bad.

Like Qui Gon Jin don't make NO FUCKING SENSE
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,788
Dooku probably wouldn't have been turned either as Qui Gon's death was the final straw. Palpatine really would've been SoL if made didn't get a cheap kill.
Seriously, Qui-gon turned Obi-wan into one of the greatest Jedi Masters. A dude who is going to be remembered for centuries. Look at the opening duel in RotS: Obi-wan had Dooku straight up beat until he got sideswiped by some force shit. In a straight lightsaber fight, Obi-wan had him beat. A total 180% from the previous movie, so he has to be taken out of the equation. Beyond that, he straight up beats Anakin (the Jedi with the most natural talent in the whole series) in a duel. He went blow for blow the entire time and the second he had the advantage he won. Qui-gon trained Obi-wan, turning him into that dude in the process. Imagine what he could have done with Anakin. Greatest Jedi of all time would have been the bare minimum he achieved.

It's crazy how incredibly lucky Palpatine got with that kill. If that fight had happened at any other point in the Qui-gon/Obi-wan timeline there's no way he gets that lucky. A year or two earlier and he gets prime Qui-gon and a year or two later and he starts getting into prime Obi-wan territory. The amount of sheer luck this dude fell into, considering he needed Qui-gon to be there to go to bat for Anakin, it boggles the mind.
 
Oct 31, 2017
6,747
His open distrust further pushed Anakin to the Dark Side, he never fostered a good relationship with Anakin, it was always antagonistic.

Windu's distrust of Anakin IS what in part led to that fall. It was via that distrust and its implications how Palpatine began to slither into Anakin's mind. He gave Anakin the trust and confidence he yearned from the Council, but that Windu always made sure he never got. If Windu had simply trusted and had confidence in Anakin, Palpatine would had never turned him to the Dark Side so easily, if at all. Since in that scenario, Anakin wouldn't had ended up forming what basically was a father-son relationship with Sidious.

I'm just saying it's not like he was all the way wrong the not trust the kid. Ani was sneaky, to say the least.

There's an argument that if Qui-gon had been the one to train Anakin that he probably doesn't go dark side and that him dying was probably the moment Palpatine's plan won.

I can buy that for sure
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,788
I'm just saying it's not like he was all the way wrong the not trust the kid. Ani was sneaky, to say the least.



I can buy that for sure
It ain't just that, it's also Obi-wan wasn't fully formed when he got Anakin. He was like 60% of the way there, but not ready just yet. I mean, look at what he did with Luke and he was a ghost the majority of the time. Dude schooled Yoda at one point. Palpatine lucks out on the timing of his plan so hard it's not even funny. If Obi-wan is five years further along in The Phantom Menace not only does the whole movie go differently, but the whole series.

Seriously, Palpatine's plan was not well thought out at all. Dude got so damn lucky with the timing of everything.