He legit overpowers Vader in the first few seconds of the fight, then just stops fighting for a while.
Vader bringing up Leia wasn't what made Luke win. It was what made him fight.
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Is Luke Skywalker good at lightsaber fighting?
- Thread starter Lost Lemurian
- Start date
He legit overpowers Vader in the first few seconds of the fight, then just stops fighting for a while.
Vader bringing up Leia wasn't what made Luke win. It was what made him fight.
Yes, but the choreography and effects back then weren't as bombastic.
Vader gets his ass beat in a few seconds despite being powerful enough to effortlessly choke people from a mile away over a monitor call
Vader gets his ass beat in a few seconds despite being powerful enough to effortlessly choke people from a mile away over a monitor call
Yeah that's right, I'm saying that if she caught up to his level and defeated him in less than two years while he had been a jedi for a while, then he sucks.
That's not canon. </denial> And the way I interpreted that scene was that Luke and Leia weren't really taking things seriously. Look at how much fun both of them were having.
Seriously though, I always assumed he learned lightsaber skills offscreen between Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.
Luke was far more confident, he could use force persuasion, force assisted acrobatics, bolt deflection, etc in first act of Return of the Jedi. He managed to defeat a rancor on his own, and free all of his friends and help defeat Pizza the Hutt. So yeah, even back when I was a kid, I chalked this up to offscreen training.
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Vader answers this question. Forget about the choreography and how the sword fighting looks in the PT. That's a stylistic choice made in a different era.
Is there an answer of how Vader was affected after he got mopped by Obi Wan? Did he get worse at force control and lightsaber fighting? Did he remain the same? Whatever that answer is gives you insight on how Luke would have fared in the fancy pants days.
Is there an answer of how Vader was affected after he got mopped by Obi Wan? Did he get worse at force control and lightsaber fighting? Did he remain the same? Whatever that answer is gives you insight on how Luke would have fared in the fancy pants days.
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How does he train off-screen, though? I mean, even if he somehow had access to books or videos of lightsaber fighting techniques, that's like saying you can watch a bunch of YouTube tutorials and then become an Olympic-class fencer...in, like, a year.
Impossible to answer just because it depends on how much weight you give to alt-canon sources like the games, TV shows, and comic books.
If Ahsoka couldn't beat Vader, there's no way that Luke should be able to. If Vader is master of telekinesis like in Fallen Order, there's no way Luke should be able to beat him. In that game he literally bends and rips entire rooms and structures apart -- he should have destroyed Luke in Empire Strikes Back.
For the most part I guess you can just chalk it up to the idea that "Vader got weak and worn in his later years" or that he was holding back in a fight against his son, but I don't like how that undercuts Luke's victory. I much prefer the idea that Luke's heart and perseverance let him win the day. Maybe it's better to look at lightsaber duels like the NFL -- the better team should win 9 times out of 10, but on any given Sunday anything can happen.
If Ahsoka couldn't beat Vader, there's no way that Luke should be able to. If Vader is master of telekinesis like in Fallen Order, there's no way Luke should be able to beat him. In that game he literally bends and rips entire rooms and structures apart -- he should have destroyed Luke in Empire Strikes Back.
For the most part I guess you can just chalk it up to the idea that "Vader got weak and worn in his later years" or that he was holding back in a fight against his son, but I don't like how that undercuts Luke's victory. I much prefer the idea that Luke's heart and perseverance let him win the day. Maybe it's better to look at lightsaber duels like the NFL -- the better team should win 9 times out of 10, but on any given Sunday anything can happen.
I think he became pretty good.
The opening act of ROTJ goes to great lengths to show that Luke has really come into his own as a Jedi, the visual difference between his skill and anyone in the PT or ST seems down to the limits of the era it was made in.
Like i always figured a Jedis skill with a lightsaber was more down to their connection to the force, with specific training and techniques just serving as a foundation to that.
Whats more is that the end to his fight with Vader shows that he could completely outclass him if he embraced the darkside, but that was also the last time the franchise seemed to remember that the point of the Jedi was to be good rather than powerful, least until TLJ.
The opening act of ROTJ goes to great lengths to show that Luke has really come into his own as a Jedi, the visual difference between his skill and anyone in the PT or ST seems down to the limits of the era it was made in.
Like i always figured a Jedis skill with a lightsaber was more down to their connection to the force, with specific training and techniques just serving as a foundation to that.
Whats more is that the end to his fight with Vader shows that he could completely outclass him if he embraced the darkside, but that was also the last time the franchise seemed to remember that the point of the Jedi was to be good rather than powerful, least until TLJ.
hey just look at your avatar, you should know that some people really struggle with the idea of a woman excelling in Star Wars unless its explicitly spelled out why.
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The problem is that every lightsaber fight in the OT involves someone intentionally losing or holding back.
Vader vs Obi-Wan on the Death Star - Obi-Wan lets himself be killed so he can become one with the Force
Vader vs Luke on Cloud City - Vader isn't trying to kill Luke, he wants to recruit him (although, he seems to get him into the carbonite pit pretty easily. I mean, he even says "All too easy" before Luke jumps out)
Vader vs Luke on the second Death Star - Vader still isn't trying to kill Luke, and then when Luke goes HAM, Vader is taken by surprise and is still trying not to hurt his son by defending himself too much
it like, Leia is literally TWIN SISTER of Luke....
she has the same potential than him.
so why is so unbelievable that she could catch up to him, IN PEACE TIMES.
they could focus totally in their Jedi training instead of running for their lives from the empire.
but no, if Leia catch ups to him is because he sucks.
Do you think for a second that if a random joe ended up stronger than Luke Skywalker in the same era with no explanation people would be fine with it, though ?
Getting tired of people defending JJ's garbage now that he's been exposed as a total hack and lost all benefit of the doubt.
If she has the same potential as him she shouldn't be growing 10 times faster.
Oh wow PEACE TIMES, almost as if there wasn't an entire fucking part of the series set in WAR TIMES where the Jedi were even more powerful.
She didn't just catch up, she defeated him, after a ridiculously short amount of training compared to his.
Obiwan had more experience than Anakin and that's why he took over despite his power.
I'm sorry Luke sucks, thank TROS.
Random Joe? what?
Its Leia, Lukes sister, trained by him, stated by Yoda to also be a viable chosen one if luke fails, and she was already shown to be very strong in the force with TLJ.
Saying that she became a competent jedi in the immediate years after the OT but later took a different path in life is not very out there, and framing it as "some random joe" is ridiculous.
Like i hated ROS, but that part made total sense.
He was talking about Rey in TFA.
(but to reply to your point, becoming a competent jedi in less than two years is fine, defeating Luke Skywalker is pushing it, as it completely defeats the purpose of Leia searching for Luke in TFA and not helping Rey herself etc.. like she ended up doing anyway. Garbage, makes 0 sense, have fun defending TROS :) )
i dont really see why its pushing it, just means she had more natural talent and so caught up, Luke himself learned in a similarly quick timeframe, and without a war getting in the way.
The later point is totally fair, as it was it was a revelation that didnt really add anything, and theres hardly any element in that film that didnt result in plot holes on some level. Just saying that as a point on its own it i think it fits plenty well.
And really, im not defending TROS, i hate that movie.
Leia didn't want to be a Jedi and stopped learning. She preferred a different role, Luke formed a school and was trying to revive the order...
I like the differences in fighting styles in each era.
The prequels are the jedi at their height, having been taught a passed down style of fighting that has been refined and perfected for millenia to the point its become a natural muscle memory fluid dance. The Sith of course are forced to keep up with this and so are equally refined.
The OT we haved passed his prime Obi-Wan who intentionally threw the match and a walking iron lung in Vader, neither would fight anything like their prequel selves. Luke is mostly self taught and started training very late for a short amount of time, the millenias of lightsaber combat training the jedi built up died with Order 66.
In the sequels they fight like brawlers. Kylo was taught by the self taught Luke, again the refinements and styles of the prequel era are lost. Kylo is also a completely unhinged maniac and the most fluid he ever was when he became Ben Solo again when his mind was cleared. Rey is a complete amateur with a scrappy background and so she fights like someone scrapping, the dyad, Sheev sperm, and then whatever training she got from Leia(who doesn't use a lightsaber anymore and never completed her own training) helped her to stand up to Kylo in TROS but she still couldn't beat him.
To answer the question......his skills with a saber aren't really the point of the character so..........I don't know, doesn't really matter.
The prequels are the jedi at their height, having been taught a passed down style of fighting that has been refined and perfected for millenia to the point its become a natural muscle memory fluid dance. The Sith of course are forced to keep up with this and so are equally refined.
The OT we haved passed his prime Obi-Wan who intentionally threw the match and a walking iron lung in Vader, neither would fight anything like their prequel selves. Luke is mostly self taught and started training very late for a short amount of time, the millenias of lightsaber combat training the jedi built up died with Order 66.
In the sequels they fight like brawlers. Kylo was taught by the self taught Luke, again the refinements and styles of the prequel era are lost. Kylo is also a completely unhinged maniac and the most fluid he ever was when he became Ben Solo again when his mind was cleared. Rey is a complete amateur with a scrappy background and so she fights like someone scrapping, the dyad, Sheev sperm, and then whatever training she got from Leia(who doesn't use a lightsaber anymore and never completed her own training) helped her to stand up to Kylo in TROS but she still couldn't beat him.
To answer the question......his skills with a saber aren't really the point of the character so..........I don't know, doesn't really matter.
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Characters' skills with a lightsaber, the origin of those skills, and the level of those skills in relation to the other characters seems to be one of the most hotly debated topics in the fandom.
To be frank, I think a huge amount of the criticism leveled at the Disney Star Wars films can be answered with:
Not all of it, but a lot of it.
However, a lot of that criticism seems to spin out of how people interpret Luke Skywalker as a character, hence this thread.
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Force power canonically has nothing to do with bloodline, though. It's all about how many midi-chlorians are in your blood. I mean, the Jedi are celibate. You'd run out of new recruits pretty quick if Force ability was genetic.
Wrinkle or wrinkle not. There is no choice... If you have the money for it.
They are not celibate. Sex is allowed, just not attachments.
"Jedi Knights aren't celibate - the thing that is forbidden is attachments - and possessive relationships." George Lucas
User Banned (1 Day): Hostility
are you being obtuse on purpose?
the fact that they were in peace time let Luke and Leia focus in their fucking training.
what does the jedi being in war times have to do with this at all???????
they were already quite powerful before the fucking war began.
and holy shit at believing just because TROS showed one fucking sparring match where Leia wins means she overpassed him and is the most powerful jedi ever.
you got to be really fucking stupid to believe that.
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Hmm. So, that's a bit of a gray area, because it's just a comment from Lucas, not a part of the movies.
Still, seems like having children wouldn't be allowed, because that would definitely be a big ol' attachment.
Leia trained to fight from an early age, this is canon in both the old EU and the new continuity. Applying that skill to lightsaber training would be a fairly simple thing, much like it was fairly simple for Rey to apply her staff fighting experience to wielding a lightsaber (and in TFA and TLJ she does use it more like a staff or club than a sword). Luke, having no combat training experience, had to learn from a standing start. It's entirely plausible that Leia would outpace him quickly a few years after RotJ. Meanwhile the Luke who can fend off Rey's advances with a stick has had a lifetime to study technique since then.
Well Luke is a pretty plucky and resourceful young chap, who has undergone serious shit. Not quite sure the amount of time that occurs between Empires and Return ( some speculate between 1 to a few years), but it's apparent that he's far more confident and formidable. Luke never struck me as an olympic-class fencer as you put it, he still gets shot on the barge and there's a still a bit of flailing here and there. Perhaps, he stumbled across a holocron or he did some Jedi meditation zoom meetings with Kenobi and/or Yoda.
A New Hope - Luke is not a swordfighter. He has a sword, and he managed to block one shot from the training droid, but that doesn't make him a fighter. But he's got a training droid, so now he's got a way of teaching himself some stuff, because Obi Wan and Yoda basically taught him nothing about the sword. Luke is basically self-taught with regards to the sword.
Empire Strikes Back - Luke thinks he's a capable swordfighter, but he's not on Darth Vader's level. Luke probably mastered the training droid, but Vader is a real swordfighter, and he treats Luke as if he was a child. Vader initially fights Luke one-handed, and when Vader thinks he won, he says it was too easy. And then he sees that a desperate Luke hasn't lost, and Vader is impressed. Vader is not actually impressed that Luke is still going, he's impressed that Luke has exceeded the extremely low bar that Vader set for him.
Luke takes the fight to Vader aggressively, and Vader is forced to put a second hand on his sword. This is the measure of Luke's ability in ESB, that he forced Vader to use two hands. After an exchange, Vader decides to teach Luke a lesson and starts using Force powers in the middle of their swordfight. This should be a basic ability for a Jedi swordfighter, but Vader is kicking Luke's ass with it. Then Vader knocks Luke down with regular swordplay and says that Luke is beaten. Luke won't quit, so he clips Vader's arm, and Vader responds by chopping Luke's hand, disarming him. Luke in ESB was never a serious threat to Vader, and Vader was just toying with Luke.
Return of the Jedi - Luke seems to have trained and taught himself more about swordfighting, following his ESB loss (and the loss of his hand), and I think now he's better than Darth Vader. In the throne room fight, Luke was constantly going back and forth between winning, and backing down because he doesn't want to fight. When Luke started whaling on Vader after Vader made him mad, I don't think that was just "darkside = powerful", because a good swordsman like Vader should be able to handle someone with greater power than him, but Vader was just getting 100% crushed by an angry Luke's onslaught. And "darkside = powerful" wouldn't explain why Luke was so good in the rest of the throne room fight. RotJ Luke was a better swordfighter than Vader, IMO.
Empire Strikes Back - Luke thinks he's a capable swordfighter, but he's not on Darth Vader's level. Luke probably mastered the training droid, but Vader is a real swordfighter, and he treats Luke as if he was a child. Vader initially fights Luke one-handed, and when Vader thinks he won, he says it was too easy. And then he sees that a desperate Luke hasn't lost, and Vader is impressed. Vader is not actually impressed that Luke is still going, he's impressed that Luke has exceeded the extremely low bar that Vader set for him.
Luke takes the fight to Vader aggressively, and Vader is forced to put a second hand on his sword. This is the measure of Luke's ability in ESB, that he forced Vader to use two hands. After an exchange, Vader decides to teach Luke a lesson and starts using Force powers in the middle of their swordfight. This should be a basic ability for a Jedi swordfighter, but Vader is kicking Luke's ass with it. Then Vader knocks Luke down with regular swordplay and says that Luke is beaten. Luke won't quit, so he clips Vader's arm, and Vader responds by chopping Luke's hand, disarming him. Luke in ESB was never a serious threat to Vader, and Vader was just toying with Luke.
Return of the Jedi - Luke seems to have trained and taught himself more about swordfighting, following his ESB loss (and the loss of his hand), and I think now he's better than Darth Vader. In the throne room fight, Luke was constantly going back and forth between winning, and backing down because he doesn't want to fight. When Luke started whaling on Vader after Vader made him mad, I don't think that was just "darkside = powerful", because a good swordsman like Vader should be able to handle someone with greater power than him, but Vader was just getting 100% crushed by an angry Luke's onslaught. And "darkside = powerful" wouldn't explain why Luke was so good in the rest of the throne room fight. RotJ Luke was a better swordfighter than Vader, IMO.
I believe the gap between Empire and Jedi is most likely when he did most of this training. Heck, you can even see how quick of a learner Luke is in lightsaber combat in the duel in Empire. Vader does a disarm move on him twice, Luke adapts on the second strike to not lose his lightsaber, so Vader moves a bit and chops of his hand. So I could see him picking it up quickly.
I do think Luke was stronger than Vader during Return of the Jedi. There was a clarity to his purpose and a powerful determination, which contrasted with Vader's own conflicted emotions and doubt, and if Star Wars has taught us anything it's that focus grants strength.
Of course, "power levels" didn't exactly exist in the original trilogy and it was a fairy tale in space so of course the good guy was going to beat the bad guy in a duel.
Of course, "power levels" didn't exactly exist in the original trilogy and it was a fairy tale in space so of course the good guy was going to beat the bad guy in a duel.
I mean they physically show us a non-force user being trained to use one in canon
Nobody was ever confused about why Luke got better at things between films because it was very clear to the audience that time had passed. In movie #2 we open with a new status quo - these people are now established figures in the rebellion, the empire has found their new secret base, they give us hints of the off-screen relationship developing between Han and Leia, and Luke demonstrates new abilities. At the start of movie #3 time has passed again, people have tracked down Han after he was taken away, and Luke is explicitly introduced in a much more calm and confident manner - he's totally comfortable with his powers now in a way he wasn't in the last film. Where was he practicing? Did he find some books, or an off-screen teacher, or did he figure it out from first principles? We don't know, but we don't really have to know, that aspect of it isn't significant to the story.
Something worth emphasizing here is that Luke's development in terms of power is uncharacteristically restrained by the standards of action/adventure narratives. If you watch contemporaneous SciFi and Fantasy adventure films, the expected arc for Star Wars (episode 4) would be that Luke comes into his full powers as a Jedi Knight Chosen One type person in the final act, maybe gets visions of his father or something, and then he not only stops the evil plot, he would kill Darth Vader in a sword fight straight up. Star Wars holding back on doing this is one of the things that sets it apart, and one of the reasons why it was turned so successfully into a series of movies, rather than having everything wrapped up in one. It managed to feel satisfying while still leaving loose threads to explore in the future movies - Luke has only taken a step into his powers, Darth Vader didn't die, the mysterious Emperor has never been seen, and the Empire has only been thwarted, not defeated outright.
Rey coming into her powers much quicker and more spectacularly is more in line with how most movies would have done it. They still let the bad guy get away at the end, and they're definitely still keeping a firm eye towards this being part of a series as opposed to a standalone movie, but they really don't waste much time powering her up. The depictions of how the Force works are, imo, quite bad in the sequel trilogy, but this was just carrying that torch from the prequels, where we had many of the same problems. Not all of the same, but many. Annakin being a Chosen One makes him stand out from other Jedi, in that he doesn't seem to need hard work because he is Very Special (tm). A lot of people roll their eyes at how shitty the scenes of him blowing up the trade federation ships are, but I think that beyond the surface level stupidity of all those scenes is the implication that it all kinda works how Finn says it does in The Force Awakens. Basically, you can just wing it, everything will be fine, because The Force will take care of it. It's pretty obnoxious.
Something worth emphasizing here is that Luke's development in terms of power is uncharacteristically restrained by the standards of action/adventure narratives. If you watch contemporaneous SciFi and Fantasy adventure films, the expected arc for Star Wars (episode 4) would be that Luke comes into his full powers as a Jedi Knight Chosen One type person in the final act, maybe gets visions of his father or something, and then he not only stops the evil plot, he would kill Darth Vader in a sword fight straight up. Star Wars holding back on doing this is one of the things that sets it apart, and one of the reasons why it was turned so successfully into a series of movies, rather than having everything wrapped up in one. It managed to feel satisfying while still leaving loose threads to explore in the future movies - Luke has only taken a step into his powers, Darth Vader didn't die, the mysterious Emperor has never been seen, and the Empire has only been thwarted, not defeated outright.
Rey coming into her powers much quicker and more spectacularly is more in line with how most movies would have done it. They still let the bad guy get away at the end, and they're definitely still keeping a firm eye towards this being part of a series as opposed to a standalone movie, but they really don't waste much time powering her up. The depictions of how the Force works are, imo, quite bad in the sequel trilogy, but this was just carrying that torch from the prequels, where we had many of the same problems. Not all of the same, but many. Annakin being a Chosen One makes him stand out from other Jedi, in that he doesn't seem to need hard work because he is Very Special (tm). A lot of people roll their eyes at how shitty the scenes of him blowing up the trade federation ships are, but I think that beyond the surface level stupidity of all those scenes is the implication that it all kinda works how Finn says it does in The Force Awakens. Basically, you can just wing it, everything will be fine, because The Force will take care of it. It's pretty obnoxious.
To summarize what everyone else says
My headcanon is that he's good at lightsaber combat it's just that the movies he's in don't really obsessed to show what his skill is relative to anyone else. In the OT he mostly fights non force scrubs and a conflicted vader and luke spiritual growth and his relationship with vader was more important
In tlj again he's probably stronger than Kylo and Rey but the movie isn't focused on showing off his sword skills
It's seems to be more of an EU where people put more focus on his power levels
My headcanon is that he's good at lightsaber combat it's just that the movies he's in don't really obsessed to show what his skill is relative to anyone else. In the OT he mostly fights non force scrubs and a conflicted vader and luke spiritual growth and his relationship with vader was more important
In tlj again he's probably stronger than Kylo and Rey but the movie isn't focused on showing off his sword skills
It's seems to be more of an EU where people put more focus on his power levels
I think it's not really possible to tell.
The original trilogy portrayed the idea that ultimately being guided by the force was the way to achieve true mastery. Your physical abilities weren't nearly as relevant as being able to tap into the Force and that would allow you to perform incredible feats (deflect blasters without seeing, perform ridiculous shots in spaceships, stand toe-to-toe with people far more experienced as fighters, etc). There wasn't really much of a separation between being skilled with a lightsaber and being skilled with the force, and it was reinforced through Yoda that ultimately the competent use of the lightsaber wasn't particularly valued in comparison.
The prequel trilogy essentially discarded that in favour of choreographed dance sequences which have nothing to do with any form of actual combat. It introduced almost a separation between the usage of the force and the use of a lightsaber and essentially discarded the mythos of the original trilogy in favour of visually impressive but totally ineffective 'combat' sequences. The discarding of the original mythos is showcased nowhere more clearly than any sequence where Yoda or Palpatine draw a sword. You can't assess how 'good' anybody is in a combat scenario because nothing that's been done resembles any form of actual combat.
The sequel trilogy more closely aligns with the mythos of the original, with a more raw form of combat where an ability to tap into the force is portrayed as more important To your skill as a fighter than pure combat technique (highlighted by Rey's final confrontation with Kylo in TFA, and Luke's portrayal in TLJ).
With the viewpoint of the original and sequel trilogy, I think it's demonstrated quite clearly through the sequel trilogy that Luke is the most skilled combatant solely through his ability to tap into the Force, primarily in his confrontation with Rey and Kylo. Unfortunately, the only people we can really compare him with are Ben (in the OT), Darth Vader (in the OT), Rey (in the ST), and Kylo(in the ST), as neither Yoda nor Snoke are seen in a combat scenario and the prequel trilogy isn't a good basis for a comparison.
It's only when viewed in the context of games, the prequel trilogy, and the extended universe where some sort of comic book style 'power list' makes sense.
The original trilogy portrayed the idea that ultimately being guided by the force was the way to achieve true mastery. Your physical abilities weren't nearly as relevant as being able to tap into the Force and that would allow you to perform incredible feats (deflect blasters without seeing, perform ridiculous shots in spaceships, stand toe-to-toe with people far more experienced as fighters, etc). There wasn't really much of a separation between being skilled with a lightsaber and being skilled with the force, and it was reinforced through Yoda that ultimately the competent use of the lightsaber wasn't particularly valued in comparison.
The prequel trilogy essentially discarded that in favour of choreographed dance sequences which have nothing to do with any form of actual combat. It introduced almost a separation between the usage of the force and the use of a lightsaber and essentially discarded the mythos of the original trilogy in favour of visually impressive but totally ineffective 'combat' sequences. The discarding of the original mythos is showcased nowhere more clearly than any sequence where Yoda or Palpatine draw a sword. You can't assess how 'good' anybody is in a combat scenario because nothing that's been done resembles any form of actual combat.
The sequel trilogy more closely aligns with the mythos of the original, with a more raw form of combat where an ability to tap into the force is portrayed as more important To your skill as a fighter than pure combat technique (highlighted by Rey's final confrontation with Kylo in TFA, and Luke's portrayal in TLJ).
With the viewpoint of the original and sequel trilogy, I think it's demonstrated quite clearly through the sequel trilogy that Luke is the most skilled combatant solely through his ability to tap into the Force, primarily in his confrontation with Rey and Kylo. Unfortunately, the only people we can really compare him with are Ben (in the OT), Darth Vader (in the OT), Rey (in the ST), and Kylo(in the ST), as neither Yoda nor Snoke are seen in a combat scenario and the prequel trilogy isn't a good basis for a comparison.
It's only when viewed in the context of games, the prequel trilogy, and the extended universe where some sort of comic book style 'power list' makes sense.
Correct. Something so simple even kids could understand it.
I see him in ESB and ROTJ as being one of those people that doesn't really know what they're doing but has no idea that they don't know what they're doing, so they become relatively dangerous, even to a skilled person, because they'll do illogical shit like move "the horsey piece" randomly and advance all pawns.
Lol. This became very clear to me with a recent ROTJ rewatch where I tried to make sense of Luke's bad-ass plan in Jabba's Palace which made NO sense and he got himself in trouble real quick.
When I was a kid I used to think a lot of it was both Luke's improvements, and that Vader was just old, like 60s old (Sebastian Shaw was in his late 70s!) and just could no longer hang with a pissed off semi-trained/intermediate lightsaber wielder of Luke's age, even if Luke was not "great".
Of course, that was before old ass Yoda and Sidious were revealed to move fast as lightning and that Vader turned out to be only 45 in RotJ.
He didn't complete his training. He went back to Yoda to complete his training but he didn't need to do more pushups or lift more rocks to become a Jedi. He needed to face his father, resist the Dark Side and restore balance through love, compassion and self-sacrifice.
He didn't go back to Dagobah until the events of ROTJ. There's a new comic coming out in May which I assume will explain in more detail what he was up to between the two films:
