• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Senator Toadstool

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,651
Would you like to tell us in which books and passages Marx supports and advocates a totalitarian form of government?
yeah. unless he wants to trot out an ignorant view of what "dictatorship of the proletariat" means, he never advocated for that

edit: rushersauce beat me too it.

And on topic this easy was a rejection of the antisemism of another question and was largely a defense of the jewish people (and not always in a paternalistic patronizing way). It obviously deals with antisemetic trope but as a Jew I don't see Marx as anybody to cancel over a few antisemetic tropes. They're bad but not cancleable.
 

Veliladon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,557
Would you like to tell us in which books and passages Marx supports and advocates a totalitarian form of government?

We can no true scotsman communism but on the whole we've seen every attempted implementation of communism so far devolve into Animal Farm.

You can argue that humans continually fail communism, which is an acceptable point to make, but if we keep failing at it we might need to rethink it just a tad.
 

Deleted member 8644

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
975
Huey P. Newton:
"If you are a dialectical materialist, however, Marx's racism does not matter. You do not believe in the conclusions of one person but in the validity of a mode of thought; and we in the Party, as dialectical materialists, recognize Karl Marx as one of the great contributors to that mode of thought. Whether or not Marx was a racist is irrelevant and immaterial to whether or not the system of thinking he helped to develop delivers truths about processes in the material world. And this is true in all disciplines. In every discipline you find people who have distorted visions and are at a low state of consciousness who nonetheless have flashes of insight and produce ideas worth considering. For instance, John B. Watson once stated that his favorite pastime was hunting and hanging niggers, yet he made great forward strides in the analysis and investigations of conditioned responses."

www.viewpointmag.com

Intercommunalism (1974) - Viewpoint Magazine

The logic of the thesis of intercommunalism is: imperialism leads to “reactionary intercommunalism” to “revolutionary intercommunalism” to pure communism and anarchy. Each of the concepts is in need of definition and redefinition.

Yes marx was a racist, his racism is not out of place for his time and people do not study his work and thought because of the racism, but in spite of it
 

Deleted member 14459

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,874
Also, to diversify Marx racial discourse and before we cancel hom based on how his ideas have contributed to upholding and reproducing systemic racism in the US, here is his letter to Lincoln in full:, which also needs to be considered in the context of moral horizons of the time

We congratulate the American people upon your re-election by a large majority. If resistance to the Slave Power was the reserved watchword of your first election, the triumphant war cry of your re-election is Death to Slavery.

From the commencement of the titanic American strife the workingmen of Europe felt instinctively that the star-spangled banner carried the destiny of their class. The contest for the territories which opened the dire epopee, was it not to decide whether the virgin soil of immense tracts should be wedded to the labor of the emigrant or prostituted by the tramp of the slave driver?

When an oligarchy of 300,000 slaveholders dared to inscribe, for the first time in the annals of the world, "slavery" on the banner of Armed Revolt, when on the very spots where hardly a century ago the idea of one great Democratic Republic had first sprung up, whence the first Declaration of the Rights of Man was issued, and the first impulse given to the European revolution of the eighteenth century; when on those very spots counterrevolution, with systematic thoroughness, gloried in rescinding "the ideas entertained at the time of the formation of the old constitution", and maintained slavery to be "a beneficent institution", indeed, the old solution of the great problem of "the relation of capital to labor", and cynically proclaimed property in man "the cornerstone of the new edifice" — then the working classes of Europe understood at once, even before the fanatic partisanship of the upper classes for the Confederate gentry had given its dismal warning, that the slaveholders' rebellion was to sound the tocsin for a general holy crusade of property against labor, and that for the men of labor, with their hopes for the future, even their past conquests were at stake in that tremendous conflict on the other side of the Atlantic. Everywhere they bore therefore patiently the hardships imposed upon them by the cotton crisis, opposed enthusiastically the proslavery intervention of their betters — and, from most parts of Europe, contributed their quota of blood to the good cause.

While the workingmen, the true political powers of the North, allowed slavery to defile their own republic, while before the Negro, mastered and sold without his concurrence, they boasted it the highest prerogative of the white-skinned laborer to sell himself and choose his own master, they were unable to attain the true freedom of labor, or to support their European brethren in their struggle for emancipation; but this barrier to progress has been swept off by the red sea of civil war.

The workingmen of Europe feel sure that, as the American War of Independence initiated a new era of ascendancy for the middle class, so the American Antislavery War will do for the working classes. They consider it an earnest of the epoch to come that it fell to the lot of Abraham Lincoln, the single-minded son of the working class, to lead his country through the matchless struggle for the rescue of an enchained race and the reconstruction of a social world
 

Terra Torment

Banned
Jan 4, 2020
840
We can no true scotsman communism but on the whole we've seen every attempted implementation of communism so far devolve into Animal Farm.

You can argue that humans continually fail communism, which is an acceptable point to make, but if we keep failing at it we might need to rethink it just a tad.
You don't think that has anything to do with the endless sanctions from the only major power that came out of WWII virtually unscathed? The USSR was devastated by the nazis but they didn't get a marshall plan to fix their shit. In a couple decades they were launching missions into space.
 

Deleted member 14459

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,874
We can no true scotsman communism but on the whole we've seen every attempted implementation of communism so far devolve into Animal Farm.

You can argue that humans continually fail communism, which is an acceptable point to make, but if we keep failing at it we might need to rethink it just a tad.

I did not ask if Marx had predicted the outcome of the Soviet Union or should have - I simply asked where he supports a totalitarian form of government - because that was stated. That is not a "no true Scotsman argument", I'm sorry.
 
Mar 3, 2019
1,831
You don't think that has anything to do with the endless sanctions from the only major power that came out of WWII virtually unscathed? The USSR was devastated by the nazis but they didn't get a marshall plan to fix their shit. In a couple decades they were launching missions into space.

Stalin did a pretty good job of destroying the nmy himself with his forced agriculture projects much like mao did as well. Perhaps if his failed initiatives were not started, the USSR might have lasted longer
 

Deleted member 24118

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,920
You don't think that has anything to do with the endless sanctions from the only major power that came out of WWII virtually unscathed? The USSR was devastated by the nazis but they didn't get a marshall plan to fix their shit. In a couple decades they were launching missions into space.

Because the USSR was such a great place before WWII lol. Totally not like the war propelled them from some failing backwater into a superpower.

And let's not forget what nation funded the Nazi war effort until they turned around and bit the hand that fed them, oops.
 

Deleted member 38573

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 17, 2018
3,902
User Banned (1 month): Dismissing concerns around antisemitism across multiple posts
Marx's "racism" was self hate and using common prejudices (the race sciences were legitimate back then) that never got anywhere near his economic theories.

Yeah not kowtowing to a forum full of libs that would never muster the energy to even skim his wikipedia by calling him a racist.

Like Huey said, it doesn't even matter. It's deflection.
 

Cat Party

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,413
Marx himself had racist and prejudicial views, but those views aren't necessary to his economic philosophy. It's similar to why we in the US still talk about "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," even though the guy who wrote that only really intended those three things to apply to white men.

But I do think it is critical to always put famous thinkers in their place. No one should get a pass.
 

Deleted member 4783

Oct 25, 2017
4,531
You don't think that has anything to do with the endless sanctions from the only major power that came out of WWII virtually unscathed? The USSR was devastated by the nazis but they didn't get a marshall plan to fix their shit. In a couple decades they were launching missions into space.
Let's not defend the USSR.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,094
Also, to diversify Marx racial discourse and before we cancel hom based on how his ideas have contributed to upholding and reproducing systemic racism in the US, here is his letter to Lincoln in full:, which also needs to be considered in the context of moral horizons of the time
I don't understand what point you're trying to make here with regards to racism. The only mention of my people that Marx.makes in this letter is as an obstacle to the freedom of the white worker. It's literally an example of the exact same ideology for which leftists receive criticism to this day. That they would throw us to the wolves in a heartbeat should it be the key to the uplifting of the white working class.

Maybe his views on race have had more impact on those studying his thought than some would like to admit. And maybe if, instead of ignoring Marx's moral failings in terms of race, people keep them in mind while studying him.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
On the jewish question is a polemic written in response to non Jewish young hegelians who were making an arguments for assimilation.

It's mostly reckoning with the legacy of the historically reserved role for jewish individuals as members of a socially controlled economic class that gave them purchase within society but also alienated them from true power or participation.

A big part of on the Jewish question is his stance that assimilation and Zionism both are inadequately emancipatory

It's obviously a big asterisk on how his work has aged but it's very important to rad the OPs quote in the proper context (textual and historical).
 

Deleted member 4783

Oct 25, 2017
4,531
Oh of course not. We have to separate the racism from the racist after all. /s
Yeah, I totally said that... But to say what you said is totally ignorant.

As if Marx writings were all driven by just racial prejudice.

Also, you could go a page ago where I stated where I land on Marx and his bigotry.
 

TorianElecdra

Member
Feb 25, 2020
2,510
If that so you probably want to get rid of a lot of the western and eastern phylosophical canon. No excuse to celebrate a person that held these views and if people want to get rid of Marx's statues go ahead. But there are no similarities between "this director is / was a racist, I wont support their movies!" and "Plato was a pro-slavery racist, better stop teaching Platonism!".

I know this is a stealth attack against Marxism and "left hypocrisy!!", but ultimately Marxism does not belong to Marx
 
Last edited:

captmcblack

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,061
When I read some of his works in college, I didn't know about the racism - so I guess that's kind of interesting in a cringe-y/"that's unfortunate" way.

I don't think it gets glossed over any more than any of the bad things about innumerable other historical/political figures get glossed over when discussing them academically, so whatever. I will however keep my eyes open on this board or anywhere else we're talking about Marx (and related/aligned figures) and see if the people discussing them have the courage to acknowledge/not dismiss or whatabout that stuff if it gets brought up in discussion, since it's a fair/relevant criticism just like Marx's criticism of socioeconomic systems.
 

TheGrayFox

Banned
Jun 3, 2020
87
Maybe I'm being needlessly dismissive of Marx's poorly defined and never properly elaborated idea of what a "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" would actually look like. We can point towards his support of the Paris commune but it'd also be silly not to point out that "state" lasted less than 2 months.

I also don't think its disingenuous to point out that every single state that sought to follow through on Marx's vision of a Dictatorship of the Proletariat would actually look like devolved into a one-party totalitarian mess of human rights violations that sought to control every facet of the economic, social, and political life.
 

Deleted member 24118

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,920
Maybe I'm being needlessly dismissive of Marx's poorly defined and never properly elaborated idea of what a "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" would actually look like. We can point towards his support of the Paris commune but it'd also be silly not to point out that "state" lasted less than 2 months.

I also don't think its disingenuous to point out that every single state that sought to follow through on Marx's vision of a Dictatorship of the Proletariat would actually look like devolved into a one-party totalitarian mess of human rights violations that sought to control every facet of the economic, social, and political life.

tHaT wAsNt ReAl CoMmUnIsM, rEaL cOmMuNiSm HaS nEvEr BeEn TrIed
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
If that so you probably want to get rid of a lot of the western and eastern phylosophical canon. No excuse to celebrate a person that held these views and if people want to get rid of Marx's statues go ahead. But there are no similarities between "this director is / was a racist, I wont support their movies!" and "Plato was a pro-slavery racist, better stop teaching Platonism!".

I know this is a stealth attack against Marxism and "left hypocrisy!!", but ultimately Marxism does not belong to Marx
Yeah, I might get behind it if this was a true attempt at basically destroying all statues of individuals, but targeting Marx of all people as one of the first to go is a clear attack on socialism, not Marx. And it's simply rediculous to tie socialism to racism given how damn near all major advances in social justice thought and activism come from people who believe in socialism.
 
Last edited:

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,127
I like the idea that people universally viewed Marx positively before this.

Maybe some people are right that Marx held racist views, especially being a white European man from the 19th century, and maybe some other people are right that you can hold racist views while also having effective analysis of capital. In short, Marx is a land of contrasts. (The attempts to frame Marx as some sort of psycho who wrote the left-wing Mein Kampf are always silly though.)
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,364
lol

People only want to remember what they like about a historical figure, they become less of an actual person over time and more of a representation of an idea. Marx, like most of his time, is an awful person by our standards today. However, I do think some of his work can be respected outside of that.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,234
We can no true scotsman communism but on the whole we've seen every attempted implementation of communism so far devolve into Animal Farm.

You can argue that humans continually fail communism, which is an acceptable point to make, but if we keep failing at it we might need to rethink it just a tad.
I don't fully agree with this, but I will say that I think it's absurd that the failures of every socialist/nominally socialist country is caveated and explained away with what essentially reduces to "well it's the capitalists' fault they didn't succeed." I mean, if the success of an ideology relies on other competing ideologies rolling over and not getting in its way, doesn't that say something about its viability? Like I've said before, good ideas that rely on tons of assumptions and ideal conditions aren't actually good ideas.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,127
I don't fully agree with this, but I will say that I think it's absurd that the failures of every socialist/nominally socialist country is caveated and explained away with what essentially reduces to "well it's the capitalists' fault they didn't succeed." I mean, if the success of an ideology relies on other competing ideologies rolling over and not getting in its way, doesn't that say something about its viability? Like I've said before, good ideas that rely on tons of assumptions and ideal conditions aren't actually good ideas.

Yeah, those stupid socialist countries should have never let themselves been subjected to coups.
 

Madison

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,388
Lima, Peru
I don't fully agree with this, but I will say that I think it's absurd that the failures of every socialist/nominally socialist country is caveated and explained away with what essentially reduces to "well it's the capitalists' fault they didn't succeed." I mean, if the success of an ideology relies on other competing ideologies rolling over and not getting in its way, doesn't that say something about its viability? Like I've said before, good ideas that rely on tons of assumptions and ideal conditions aren't actually good ideas.
In the last 70 years the Dominican Republic, Guatemala, Brasil and Chile all got coup"d so unless you are arguing that leftists need to arm themselves more or that they need to be more authoritarian (which is an interesting topic to discuss), I dont really see where you are going with this.

If you want books about how all of these countries were under siege during their leftist governments, I have plenty of them to suggest.
 

Harken Raiser

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,992
I don't fully agree with this, but I will say that I think it's absurd that the failures of every socialist/nominally socialist country is caveated and explained away with what essentially reduces to "well it's the capitalists' fault they didn't succeed." I mean, if the success of an ideology relies on other competing ideologies rolling over and not getting in its way, doesn't that say something about its viability? Like I've said before, good ideas that rely on tons of assumptions and ideal conditions aren't actually good ideas.
Colonialism was very successful, but I don't think most people would criticize indigenous people's ideologies as non-viable just because they were conquered by the colonizers.
 
Oct 29, 2017
909
I don't fully agree with this, but I will say that I think it's absurd that the failures of every socialist/nominally socialist country is caveated and explained away with what essentially reduces to "well it's the capitalists' fault they didn't succeed." I mean, if the success of an ideology relies on other competing ideologies rolling over and not getting in its way, doesn't that say something about its viability? Like I've said before, good ideas that rely on tons of assumptions and ideal conditions aren't actually good ideas.
Are we really going to use the might makes right argument here? Disappointing.
 

Dehnus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,900
It's great that all over the world people are revisiting and condemning historical figures because of their discriminatory views and actions. That's why I thought about Karl Marx's antisemitic stances, especially in his 1844 essay On the Jewish Question where he wrote:



Here, Marx pushed and reinforced a traditional antisemitic stereotype of Jewish people.



According to Marx, Jews can't become free unless they aren't Jews anymore; they can't exist as a separate cultural identity. In the essay, you can also find the fantasized idea of a Jewish conspiracy to dominate the world.

In Europe we have Marx's statues, e.g., in Berlin. Hence the debate over the issue.

What do you think about that?
Not to be that guy but: you know a long standing secular Hebrew culture also exists right? We have been around for ages now, and although Marx's words are...well problematic to say the least, the religion does not define our culture. Yet, I'm still a "Jew" as you so nicely put. I mean, I don't think you wish to read what Baruch Spinoza wrote and said about the religion and the rabinnate, you'd probably freak out, but he was truly Hebrew. So much was his disdain that even today his descendants fight the notion of him being put on lists of religious jewry.

So while Marx was totally anti semitic, and please don't just knock him in this: the entirety of Europe was back then, you'd be hard pressed to find a non hater in that bunch; please don't just use a religion my ancestors fought hard to release themselves from as the main reason.

I mean they'd still put us in the camps too, which clearly shows you it wasn't about religion but about hate in general.

Thank you
 

Deleted member 24118

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,920
Cuba works great
Like what do people by works and doesnt work

Cuba seems to be a socialist paradise if you are living in the USA and you are young and naive. But it's pretty shit in comparison to the vast majority of western countries. They just contrast with the situation in the USA which is abnormal.
 

Madison

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,388
Lima, Peru
Cuba seems to be a socialist paradise if you a living in the USA and you are young and naive. But it's pretty shit in comparison to the vast majority of western countries. They just contrast with the situation in the USA which is abnormal.
Standards of living for poor people are generally higher than in most of the region. This includes housing, welfare for food, education and healthcare. Obviously Cuba has problems regarding to free speech and the like, but if you compare Cuba to Ecuador or Colombia or Peru (extremely liberal countries) then the results are pretty clear.
 

Deleted member 46493

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 7, 2018
5,231
There's been many scholars who devoted their life to studying Marx. Pretty sure his views are well know and have been "revisited" many times. You might as well ask "should we revisit Wagner"?
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
Cuba seems to be a socialist paradise if you are living in the USA and you are young and naive. But it's pretty shit in comparison to the vast majority of western countries. They just contrast with the situation in the USA which is abnormal.
It high a standard of living then many countries in the region. and offer thing that many things that not even america has. Especially for a that has been on a endless emabre from the us for 60 years. It not a utopia but it is clearly like working. I would assume you think western counties like the UK to work right ?