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Is it morally justifiable to have a child when adoption exists as an option?

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Redcrayon

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
I don't think putting the burden on people who want to raise a family is the right question about morality and altruism here, as if by choosing to have one or more children, you create parenting 'slots' that any child in need of a home can be dropped into in order to 'solve' adoption as efficiently as possible.

The kids that really need help are already partially grown-up, and it's a significantly different set of issues to raising your own kid from a newborn, even if you remove any wishes to have your own children from the equation. Adoptive parents are absolute heroes with a ton of training and support, there's a reason the application process to do so is so long- plenty of would-be parents wouldn't necessarily be great adoptive parents.

I'm a father myself. Looking at the issues around adoption, if that makes us 'vain', 'immoral' or 'selfish' (to use some of the terms thrown around in this thread) to have chosen to have our own kid rather than sign up to adopt, it seems like a poor way to frame the discussion by reducing it to simplistic parenting slots and taking a swipe at parents. Rather than looking at adoption and all of the complex needs surrounding it, from health and trauma to issues around culture and international adoption, the legal rights of the child and those of their biological parents etc, as an individual multi-faceted issue worthy of discussion.
 
Kemiko

Kemiko

Member
Oct 5, 2018
616
Its an interesting debate to have. I think that most people just biologically have a stronger connection to that they have fathered/mothered (this coming from someone that hasn't started a family yet).

But I have huge respect for people that adopt.
 
ninnanuam

ninnanuam

Member
Nov 24, 2017
1,956
ToddBonzalez said:
If you have the means and desire to provide a child with a safe and supportive upbringing, is it moral to bring a new child into the world, rather than providing for one that already exists? Maybe this a very hot take, but I believe there's an element of vanity in having a biological child and this instinct overrides the more altruistic choice which is adoption. Any thoughts?
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Have you tried to adopt?
Its a fucking nightmare, I have had friends and family members try to adopt. Its red tape and bullshit personified. Like years of work with no guarantee at the end.

I had some friends do both IVF and attempt adopt. They were going through both for years. and each year made them worse candidates for adoption (age is a qualifier!)

Edited to add anecdotal evidence.
 
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ToddBonzalez

ToddBonzalez

The Pyramids? That's nothing compared to RDR2
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,530
Redcrayon said:
I don't think putting the burden on people who want to raise a family is the right question about morality and altruism here, as if by choosing to have one or more children, you create parenting 'slots' that any child in need of a home can be dropped into in order to 'solve' adoption as efficiently as possible.

The kids that really need help are already partially grown-up, and it's a significantly different set of issues to raising your own kid from a newborn, even if you remove any wishes to have your own children from the equation. Adoptive parents are absolute heroes with a ton of training and support, there's a reason the application process to do so is so long- plenty of would-be parents wouldn't necessarily be great adoptive parents.

I'm a father myself. Looking at the issues around adoption, if that makes us 'vain', 'immoral' or 'selfish' (to use some of the terms thrown around in this thread) to have chosen to have our own kid rather than sign up to adopt, it seems like a poor way to frame the discussion by reducing it to simplistic parenting slots and taking a swipe at parents. Rather than looking at adoption and all of the complex needs surrounding it, from health and trauma to issues around culture and international adoption, the legal rights of the child and those of their biological parents etc, as an individual multi-faceted issue worthy of discussion.
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This is a thoughtful response. Thanks.
 
AstralTurfWarrior

AstralTurfWarrior

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,146
Finland
Yahsper said:
My mother was a psychologist that for about a decade in the 2000's helped parents navigate the adoption of children. It really isn't all that cut and dry:

These are common issues when adopting children from second and third world countries:
- it's not straightforward to adopt children from these countries. Many foreign instances lie about the age, mental condition, physical dependencies and background of the child.
- These children are often raised by parents who couldn't take care of them, raised by a village or raised in an orphanage with little means. They've been abandoned and passed around during crucial development years, often causing intimacy issues down the line
- Added to this is that, when growing up, these children often feel a need to explore their roots and go through a phase of denying their adoptive parents
- if the child is a PoC, they'll be confronted with racism that they wouldn't necessarily have been confronted with in their country of origin

This is already quite the cocktail, but add in parents who have a very strong wish for children and often have long formed an expectancy of how their life with children would be and things can go very wrong. Adoption isn't just 'let's get a kid and give it all our love'. The chance that the child has intimicy issues, physical or mental development issues or has phases where it blames the parents for pulling it out of its environment, or a combination of those are real.

So yes, it's morally justifiable to have your own children instead of adopting. Many people could be great parents for biological children but could fail miserably with adopted children because they do not have the right mindset, expectations or toolset to deal with the potential issues that crop up.
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This is some good insight, thank you for the post.
 
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ToddBonzalez

ToddBonzalez

The Pyramids? That's nothing compared to RDR2
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,530
Grug said:
It really feels like you are resorting to bad faith moral-grandstanding tactics now because your thread didn't get the reaction you were hoping for.
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I wasn't after any particular reaction. Just posing a question and seeing what responses come in. You seem to be getting a bit heated though.
 
Goodlifr

Goodlifr

Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,885
ToddBonzalez said:
Stating that some women "need" to be pregnant to find fulfillment is trafficking in outdated views about gender.
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It's hot take after hot take with you isn't it.

If someone were stating ALL women need to be pregnant, you'd have a point.
But for some (I'm not going to speculate on %) it's a huge part of their lives and desires. This isn't a bad thing, just as people who don't want kids isn't a bad thing.
We're all different and that's cool
 
Necron

Necron

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,281
Switzerland
DaleCooper said:
How about... One biological child max, and adoptions if you want more?
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I know parents who have done exactly this.

The whole adoption process was still incredibly difficult, nonetheless.

Yahsper said:
My mother was a psychologist that for about a decade in the 2000's helped parents navigate the adoption of children. It really isn't all that cut and dry:

These are common issues when adopting children from second and third world countries:
- it's not straightforward to adopt children from these countries. Many foreign instances lie about the age, mental condition, physical dependencies and background of the child.
- These children are often raised by parents who couldn't take care of them, raised by a village or raised in an orphanage with little means. They've been abandoned and passed around during crucial development years, often causing intimacy issues down the line
- Added to this is that, when growing up, these children often feel a need to explore their roots and go through a phase of denying their adoptive parents
- if the child is a PoC, they'll be confronted with racism that they wouldn't necessarily have been confronted with in their country of origin

This is already quite the cocktail, but add in parents who have a very strong wish for children and often have long formed an expectancy of how their life with children would be and things can go very wrong. Adoption isn't just 'let's get a kid and give it all our love'. The chance that the child has intimicy issues, physical or mental development issues or has phases where it blames the parents for pulling it out of its environment, or a combination of those are real.

So yes, it's morally justifiable to have your own children instead of adopting. Many people could be great parents for biological children but could fail miserably with adopted children because they do not have the right mindset, expectations or toolset to deal with the potential issues that crop up.
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Well said... this post is very insightful.
 
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ToddBonzalez

ToddBonzalez

The Pyramids? That's nothing compared to RDR2
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,530
Goodlifr said:
It's hot take after hot take with you isn't it.

If someone were stating ALL women need to be pregnant, you'd have a point.
But for some (I'm not going to speculate on %) it's a huge part of their lives and desires. This isn't a bad thing, just as people who don't want kids isn't a bad thing.
We're all different and that's cool
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There is a big difference between a want and a need.
 
Messofanego

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,105
UK
deadman322 said:
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Was gonna link this.

There is vanity in having a biological child and also in adoption. It's subjective which one is more. Climate change wise, it might be more vain to have a biological kid. There is complexity to this, because saying it's amoral is a hot take and pretty absolutist.
ToddBonzalez said:
Caring about your legacy is inherently vain. Isn't putting your legacy above helping a child in need incredibly amoral?
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rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
ToddBonzalez said:
I wasn't after any particular reaction. Just posing a question and seeing what responses come in. You seem to be getting a bit heated though.
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The more I think about it, the more insulting your original post is- reproductive rights have a history of being used against women, there's a long history of women being made to give up their children they wanted and abused, there's a long history of a broken care system that reinforces the classism, racism, homophobia and sexism, and you reduce the complicated issue of adoption to a stupid moral question you put next to no thought into.
 
Principate

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
What an odd thread, by that argument is it morally justifiable for the kids your adopting to be born when their parents could have adopted someone else. It's ok to have biological kids. If people weren't having biological kids there would be no kids. If your problem is about overpopulation or whatever that's a completely different question to if it's ok to have biological kids.
 
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ToddBonzalez

ToddBonzalez

The Pyramids? That's nothing compared to RDR2
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Oct 27, 2017
15,530
User Banned (1 Month): Misogyny Over Multiple Posts
echoshifting said:
Your persistent downplaying of one of the most basic biological drives is reading as pretty sexist to me, so you might find you get some heated responses to that
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Isn't it a good thing that we're smart enough as a species to be able to consider the repercussions of pursuing our base biological drives and then act accordingly? We aren't slaves to our reptile brains.
 
JayC3

JayC3

bork bork
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
3,857
The framing of this topic is reductive around the complexities of adoption and makes inflammatory generalizations about parents, many of which are your fellow members. As such, we're locking the thread.
 
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