Is it just me, or do people trash VR a little too much?

[Sleepwalker]

Yeah, it does seem like people are being a bit too hostile, probably because of the fear of VR replacing traditional gaming, which is something I've seen a bunch of VR enthusiasts directly feed into with "the future is now old man"-type comments. I don't think VR advancing is at odds with regular "2d" gaming, I see them coexisting just fine even though VR will obviously greatly improve and become a viable gaming option for much more people than it is right now.

I personally don't have the means to afford a VR on top of another console/new PC parts, but I have tried it and I'm really excited to see where this technology will go and what changes to game design it will bring. Just the sense of scale you get from these headsets is impressive enough and is the biggest reason it interests me.

 

[Alucardx23]

I don't think the market will grow past the capability of a single title to make $150m revenue in a reasonable stretch post launch (I'm clarifying to duck a little responsibility if a title keeps selling 8 years+ on to eke past $150m well into its lifecycle ;D) but for many reasons I'm not going to put an active install base number on it because I don't know that anyone has an accurate count right now (probably 8m-14m?? maybe??) If you're married to the idea you can say less than 100m?

As for why, it stops growing because it's unappealing on a mainstream level for reasons that are rehashed every time this pops up but all boil down to it is something that a much greater range of people think is cool vs something they are going to spend money on and feed more software and time to.

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OK, so I will take that as you not wanting to put a number on the maximum number of active VR/AR users, you just know it wont get into the hundreds of millions. If I ask you if you agree that the current player base has been increasing as more games and better and lower priced heatsets are released, you would agree. The way you seem to see it, is that at some point it will not matter that the quality of the software and hardware keeps improving, it will not increase sales as it has been in the past. You say there will be a relatively low amount of active users and the way you explain this is by saying that it's "because it's unappealing on a mainstream level for reasons that are rehashed every time this pops up". At the same time you say this, you seem to completely ignore that the reasons why some people say VR is "unappealing", is because of issues like price, library of software, resolution, weight, etc. All of them things that will keep improving over time. I have shared as much objetive information as possible with you and you have shared something that looks more like your gut feeling on this and avoided answering a direct and clear question. There is a reason why I said this on my first reply to you "I really need for you to ask yourself if you will reply back with the same type of objetive and concrete information you demand, or if you will just reply back without including anything to support your point." We can end the conversation here.

 

[Deimos]

The people who constantly trash VR don't really care about it one way or another. They just want to be on the "winning" side of history so they can gloat about their superior foresight down the road.

It's obvious from the data that VR is here to stay and on track to become mainstream.

 

[cakefoo]

Judging Alyx's impact as a VR title is playing with a handicap; when viewed through that lens, as part of a platform holder-style strategy, it is likely a solid investment (though I'm real interested to see if it has any kind of long tail.) But that's telling half the story. It's a new Half-Life game. I don't think there's a single poster on this board who would have argued three or more years ago that a new Half-Life would be gasping for widespread attention - even/especially from enthusiast media - when faced up against a new Animal Crossing. A game of that pedigree and of that quality should be spurring massive amounts of FOMO, viral posts... it should be getting at least some attention from people who can't buy it right now or maybe never will be in that position. Instead it's in a situation where, sure, it's doing well (with the requisite caveat: for a VR game) but it's kind of forgotten beyond that crowd. That's how you build a foundation for a revolution that never manifests.

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Alyx FOMO started immediately after the announcement trailers and gameplay reveals, spurring shortages of hardware all the way up to Feb/March with the COVID-19 supply chain issues.

That said, your expectations and criteria for measuring success may be superficial. The PCVR community on Era, for example, habitually constrains their conversations to OT's/VR megathreads that outsiders have become numb to checking in on. The PSVR community on the other hand uses the New Thread button more often.

Lastly, Alyx is one 12-hour game. If you think VR should take off into mainstream adoption from one game, you're clueless or intentionally setting your expectations high for ease of downplaying. I love VR but I don't blame anyone for not wanting to invest $400 into a platform with only a couple heavy hitters (the dozens/hundreds of great, smaller indie VR games fly under the average user's radar). The average user needs to build a wishlist of games to whittle down the cost-per-game cell in their mental spreadsheet. It takes time to go from a new medium, to learning the mechanics of game design for said medium, to publishing AAA games that incorporate those design elements. Confidence in the medium will go up as AAA tentpoles start becoming more frequent and more calculable.

 

[cnorwood]

The people who constantly trash VR don't really care about it one way or another. They just want to be on the "winning" side of history so they can gloat about their superior foresight down the road.

It's obvious from the data that VR is here to stay and on track to become mainstream.

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Basically this, they saw that it didn't light the world on fire when it first launched and have now closed the books because they feel like they were right all along. Now the data doesn't match what they are saying but they already declared it DOA 4 years ago and surely they aren't incorrect. Do they actually care, no. It only takes trying out VR once, and seeing it follow the trend of all technologies where it gets thinner, faster, more options for a cheaper price than the original clunky experience.

 

[1-D_FE]

Let's just say there's a big, big, BIIIIIIG announcement that is upcoming in the sector that perhaps people like I would be privy to, that is informing my business decisions, that many on this board would not be privy to.

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Ha. I missed this until I saw someone posting about this comment on the Oculus Reddit.

I don't think Facebook or Apple are announcing anything new for 2020, but I'd sure like to know what MS has planned for the rumored WMR update.

Between Acer confirming they have a new HMD coming (in partnership with MS and Valve), and Samsung making huge hints about new HMD products coming, I sure hope something gets announced before my Index order finally comes due. I'd greatly prefer a high end desktop HMD that didn't use Lighthouse.

 

[Deleted member 12790]

Ha. I missed this until I saw someone posting about this comment on the Oculus Reddit.

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lol people are running with that? I'm talking about my own business decisions here, regarding the specific market I'm targeting. That came in the middle of some dude talking about "Not knowing anything but that short blurb, that sounds like something that's not going to be successful because it's not how people work."

 

[Elfgore]

The second post summed it up the best. For myself, I can't take it seriously because it's so.... basic. It feels like a repeat of games with all motion controls, a fad of the gen that will die out. I don't think VR will, but I think it's a long way off until it becomes standard.

 

[1-D_FE]

The second post summed it up the best. For myself, I can't take it seriously because it's so.... basic. It feels like a repeat of games with all motion controls, a fad of the gen that will die out. I don't think VR will, but I think it's a long way off until it becomes standard.

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I personally hated motion controls because I felt like it was a giant lie. Nintendo showed one thing in their promos, and all we got was a bunch of shitty waggle (and finicky pointer stuff). Motion controls were <<<<<<< standard controls. Broken garbage that was a giant fraud. The motion controls on the good VR systems, however, were exactly what I thought we were getting that gen. Completely accurate tracking that then manipulates the world through physics and not a couple canned poses. That control, to me, is >>>>>>>>>> standard controls.

Maybe that's why I like VR so much. I was so excited at the promise of that gen and turned into a world class hater when I saw it was a complete con job.

But that's on a personal level. On a pragmatic level, only people who lack imagination can't see where it's going. It's a transformative tech. AR and VR will merge into one. It will render things like television screens and computer monitors a goofy relic (and make all old movies look weird). Assuming civilization doesn't destroy itself first. Which is probably a good bet.

 

[daegan]

Lastly, Alyx is one 12-hour game. If you think VR should take off into mainstream adoption from one game, you're clueless or intentionally setting your expectations high for ease of downplaying. I love VR but I don't blame anyone for not wanting to invest $400 into a platform with only a couple heavy hitters (the dozens/hundreds of great, smaller indie VR games fly under the average user's radar). The average user needs to build a wishlist of games to whittle down the cost-per-game cell in their mental spreadsheet. It takes time to go from a new medium, to learning the mechanics of game design for said medium, to publishing AAA games that incorporate those design elements. Confidence in the medium will go up as AAA tentpoles start becoming more frequent and more calculable.

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Not at all putting all that on Alyx's shoulders; it's more about the virality of the game or lack thereof. That game should matter. It certainly looks like it deserves to, and the handful of impressions I've heard on podcasts clicks with that. But that's it. I don't see stories being written about it, I don't see it on my twitter timeline... is it anecdotal, yes, but I follow a LOT of people from across the industry. It didn't generate any sustained conversation. That isn't good, especially for a game that other replies hope will continue to sell well into the future.

What I am saying re: mainstream adoption is I just don't believe the money in the overall software market in VR will ever grow to support a truly mainstream software library in the gaming arena, to say nothing of broader appeal when compared to other dedicated gaming hardware.

 

[cakefoo]

Not at all putting all that on Alyx's shoulders; it's more about the virality of the game or lack thereof. That game should matter. It certainly looks like it deserves to, and the handful of impressions I've heard on podcasts clicks with that. But that's it. I don't see stories being written about it, I don't see it on my twitter timeline... is it anecdotal, yes, but I follow a LOT of people from across the industry. It didn't generate any sustained conversation. That isn't good, especially for a game that other replies hope will continue to sell well into the future.

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The game is only accessible to a small % of the community right now. And a lot of players are closely guarding the contents of the game out of respect for those who will eventually pick up a headset. Alyx will most likely be one of the first games every new PCVR user purchases for the next several years. Alyx had/will continue to have an impact on the VR market, but it's not the end-all-be-all of selling points VR needs to become mainstream. The average Joe needs not just one AAA game, but a barrage of AAA games. They need to be able to see a trend, a norm, for VR support.

What I am saying re: mainstream adoption is I just don't believe the money in the overall software market in VR will ever grow to support a truly mainstream software library in the gaming arena, to say nothing of broader appeal when compared to other dedicated gaming hardware.

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Every year that goes by, I keep learning about more and more features/improvements that are being researched. Technologically, I can't see VR ever hitting a ceiling, and eventually the best-selling VR hardware isn't going to be a purely gaming-entertainment-focused device, but rather an everything device similar to smartphones and computers.

 

[Magic-Man]

Ubisoft's upcoming AAA VR game (probably Splinter Cell) and maybe Iron Man VR should help things out quite a bit. As of right now, Alyx is the only major game investment into the VR space (all the other games are smaller in scope, not on the level of other AAA console releases) so it can only do so much.

But, at the same time, I'm also worried about companies like EA and Activision starting to make games for VR and ruining it with all the microtransactions. VR is relatively straight forward right now, you buy and game, maybe you buy DLC, that's it. No cosmetic or weapon bullshit from what I know. No loot boxes or season passes. It's great.

 

[Alucardx23]

Ubisoft's upcoming AAA VR game (probably Splinter Cell) should help things out quite a bit. As of right now, Alyx is the only AAA VR game, so it can only do so much.

But, at the same time, I'm also worried about companies like EA and Activision starting to make games for VR and ruining it with all the microtransactions. VR is relatively straight forward right now, you buy and game, maybe you buy DLC, that's it. No cosmetic or weapon bullshit from what I know. No loot boxes or season passes. It's great.

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I don't agree with that at all. Astro Bot, Lone Echo and Resident Evil 7, easily qualify as AAA games in my book. I haven't played Asgard's Wrath or Stormland, but they also seem to qualify.

 

[Magic-Man]

I don't agree with that at all. Astro Bot, Lone Echo and Resident Evil 7, easily qualify as AAA games in my book. I haven't played Asgard's Wrath or Stormland, but they also seem to qualify.

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Oh crap, I totally forgot about RE7. Although, that is just a port. Not a game made specifically for VR.

You do have a point with the rest though. I'll edit my post.

 

[Arthands]

Asgard's Wrath and Stormland are AAA titles too.

 

[Deleted member 12790]

Alien Isolation is also AAA. The VR mode is actually baked into the game, the Mother VR project isn't adding VR to the game like we did with Half Life 2 VR. Alien Isolation actually has a VR mode inside. The only reason it doesn't work out of the box, is because it was built with the pre-SDK 7 Oculus Runtime. Oculus Runtimes 6 and prior were radically different, the SDK 7 runtime broke compatibility. It's a simple fix, all you have to do is recompile a game with the latest SDK, and it'll work, but CA explained that they were never allowed to do so with AI after they had finished the project.

So that's what MotherVR does. It (originally) simply updated the runtime to the latest version, so all the VR stuff worked again. The latest Mother VR updates also do things like map the controls to modern VR controllers like the Oculus Touch or HTC Vive (although not positionally tracked, rather, it makes them emulate the Xbox controller).

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Alien Isolation is also AAA. The VR mode is actually baked into the game, the Mother VR project isn't adding VR to the game like we did with Half Life 2 VR. Alien Isolation actually has a VR mode inside. The only reason it doesn't work out of the box, is because it was built with the pre-SDK 7 Oculus Runtime. Oculus Runtimes 6 and prior were radically different, the SDK 7 runtime broke compatibility. It's a simple fix, all you have to do is recompile a game with the latest SDK, and it'll work, but CA explained that they were never allowed to do so with AI after they had finished the project.

So that's what MotherVR does. It (originally) simply updated the runtime to the latest version, so all the VR stuff worked again. The latest Mother VR updates also do things like map the controls to modern VR controllers like the Oculus Touch or HTC Vive (although not positionally tracked, rather, it makes them emulate the Xbox controller).

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bruh, I can't even imagine playing that game in vr

why would you encourage this

are you trying to kill people

 

[daegan]

The game is only accessible to a small % of the community right now. And a lot of players are closely guarding the contents of the game out of respect for those who will eventually pick up a headset. Alyx will most likely be one of the first games every new PCVR user purchases for the next several years. Alyx had/will continue to have an impact on the VR market, but it's not the end-all-be-all of selling points VR needs to become mainstream. The average Joe needs not just one AAA game, but a barrage of AAA games. They need to be able to see a trend, a norm, for VR support.

Every year that goes by, I keep learning about more and more features/improvements that are being researched. Technologically, I can't see VR ever hitting a ceiling, and eventually the best-selling VR hardware isn't going to be a purely gaming-entertainment-focused device, but rather an everything device similar to smartphones and computers.

Click to shrink...

The problem is that for the kind of game Alyx is (story-driven, single-player) it needs to sustain high WOM to keep selling at a heavy rate. Where several posters are asserting new adopters will be picking it up at a high rate, if it doesn't keep itself in the conversation, I don't think there's a lot to back that up (& conversely that you'll just see new reasons for adopters to pick it up instead, or they'll just keep buying Beat Saber.)

I have no doubt that people are working on the perceived obstacles to greater adoption; many will be solved. But ultimately VR isn't improving people's existing friction points as smartphones did. It's just a different way to do some things, and it will create totally new others. That's a key to a long life in institutional and situation installations and a hobbyist-class individual ownership situation, not a world-conquering market creation moment.

 

[cakefoo]

The problem is that for the kind of game Alyx is (story-driven, single-player) it needs to sustain high WOM to keep selling at a heavy rate. Where several posters are asserting new adopters will be picking it up at a high rate, if it doesn't keep itself in the conversation, I don't think there's a lot to back that up (& conversely that you'll just see new reasons for adopters to pick it up instead, or they'll just keep buying Beat Saber.)

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"Best games to show off the capabilities of VR" isn't a great conversation to be active in? It's the first conversation all new VR users get into (unless they're toolishly trying to avoid liking it). A Superhot VR reviewer's typical playtime is 3-6 hours, and only has 1/8 as many active players as Beat Saber on a given day, yet the game still ranked in the top Platinum sellers on Steam last year. While content updates and replay value and media exposure aren't unwelcome, they're not a prerequisite for sustained strong sales.

And no, a rhythm game isn't going to cannibalize a single-player FPS. The only way Alyx drifts out of the conversation is if similar games take its place. Which I look forward to, as that will only benefit the medium.

I have no doubt that people are working on the perceived obstacles to greater adoption; many will be solved. But ultimately VR isn't improving people's existing friction points as smartphones did. It's just a different way to do some things, and it will create totally new others. That's a key to a long life in institutional and situation installations and a hobbyist-class individual ownership situation, not a world-conquering market creation moment.

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VR's mainstream applications ideas start flowing when I think of the occasions where we favor in-person experiences over digital alternatives. Virtual stores/showrooms/real estate, virtual face to face conversations, virtual movie theaters... Ultimately, we'll still partake in the real activies however much we need to stay healthy, but with VR we'll have more opportunities to have a comparable experience without the friction.