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Nola

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
8,025
Thing is, demand isnt steady, nor is it growing for traditional gaming.
Traditional gaming peaked in the wii/ps3/x360 gen(total of 360m consoles and 230m handhelds) and has declined last gen, with the generation that is on the way looking like it wont reverse that trend(big part because both Sony and Nintendo went from 2 platfroms to just the one).
There is still plenty of demand to sustain the market.

VR's existence does not mean traditional gaming goes away, or even notably affects the other. Every dollar spent in VR is not a dollar taken from traditional gaming from a static finite pool of resources. But that is how some people in this thread seem to frame things, and that is worth pushing back on. If traditional gaming maintains its relative same consumer support base, it's going to be fine. If VR continues to grow, current and new resources will come online to capitalize.

If we get to a point where VR or AR solutions do what traditional gaming offers better, than maybe we see a tipping point, but at that point, who cares?
 

Nola

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
8,025
The thing is, while for you it might be the 100th time you explain it, for the person asking it might well be the first time asking, and a reaction like yours just comes over as hostile and discourages them from even interacting with VR, because when the community around a thing is percieved as hostile, people are less likely to interact with said thing.

Sure there are people that troll, but i would say the vast majority of people here are posting in good faith.
I have very little in this fight except as someone that recently experienced VR and does see the potential but this thread has been incredibly one sided with the more vehement opponents acting like near man children and the supporters being well reasoned and willing to back up their statements with factual data to prove it.


Passionate argument is what forums are for, but some do it better than others. I keep hearing these critiques of supporters but this thread doesn't really lend much to that caricature.
 

Quample

Member
Dec 23, 2017
3,231
Cincinnati, OH
The thing that bugs me is when people say "bu, bu, bu, it's the same on the other side with VR elitism!" First, 95% of the time, those "elitists" know a significant amount about the subject, whereas the side that trashes VR with dumb comparisons and "VR is dead" proclamations know very little. Second, those "elitists" are having to constantly respond to misinformation. It's hard not to get defensive, because it's something we have a passion for and find willfull ignorance on the subject to be annoying or insulting. For example, lately you can't go a page in general VR opinion threads without someone saying you need a thousand dollar peripheral to play one game (Alyx). That's a zero effort post....but even with something like that, knowledgeable people here will simply correct the mistake rather than say "do 2 seconds of fucking research before you come in here complaining about something that doesn't exist!" Most of us realize that people don't know much about the tech and are fine with healthy skepticism, but that doesn't mean we have to accept the same drive by's and close-minded posts with an "oh you!" attitude. I never see anyone here picking fights about things like VR taking over standard gaming (which would be elitism)...because anyone that knows anything about VR knows that its apples and oranges. I just find it hilarious that people think we're elitist for believing in the tech and explaining why VR has so much potential as a medium.

So yeah, skepticism is fine, and so is not caring for the tech. But know that most regulars in the VR threads are there because they love it, and will therefore gush about it and want you to like it. That's not elitism.

We also won't hesitate to make an example of your Virtua Boy and 3Dtv comparisons, haha.
 
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Andri

Member
Mar 20, 2018
6,017
Switzerland
I have very little in this fight except as someone that recently experienced VR and does see the potential but this thread has been incredibly one sided with the more vehement opponents acting like near man children and the supporters being well reasoned and willing to back up their statements with factual data to prove it.


Passionate argument is what forums are for, but some do it better than others. I keep hearing these critiques of supporters but this thread doesn't really lend much to that caricature.
I really cant agree with this.
The "well reasoned" supporters here are the same people that say this kind of stuff.

At this point I'd put them in the same category as those who identify as a flat-earther. They are so absorbed by their own incomprehension of the topic that they can only see their points as right, even know they aren't.

Claiming people that dont agree with you on VR are the same as flat-earthers is pathetic.
 

Nola

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
8,025
I really cant agree with this.
The "well reasoned" supporters here are the same people that say this kind of stuff.



Claiming people that dont agree with you on VR are the same as flat-earthers is pathetic.

I mean I read the thread. The vast majority of the conversation, barring some outliers you picked out, was enthusiastic supporters spending a lot of time reasoning out and supporting with historical and factual data their perspective, and a equal number of opponents making dumb assertions like "VR will forever remain a niche, y'all a bunch of fanatics!" "VR is crap! It's fans are delusional"(spoken by someone who hasn't and refuses to try it). Acting like a forum version of Louder with Crowder if people can't defeat their entirely unsubstantiated and hostile position in 20 seconds or less. To which most respondents, despite not receiving the same level of respect and effort, put effort into confronting those assertions.


There also seems to be a lot of Overton window nudging. Which I find very disingenuous. Where people take offense at peoples enthusiasm and essentially likens anyone that takes the more positive and optimistic positions they don't agree with to an exaggerated caricature and attempts shame it as beyond the pale.

For examples see most of Krejlooc's conversations in this thread.

Yeah there have also been enthusiasts making some rather absurd comparisons like you stated, but the vast majority of the thread has been either people coming in with outstanding baggage or seeing things that aren't there.
 

Benzychenz

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 1, 2017
15,375
Australia
For me it's just utter indifference. I already don't care about games that lean in a more immersive approach to a more 'gamey' approach, and VR just elevates that.

And so far the only VR game I've seen that I want to play is Astro Bot. One single game.
 

cakefoo

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,407
For me it's just utter indifference. I already don't care about games that lean in a more immersive approach to a more 'gamey' approach, and VR just elevates that.

And so far the only VR game I've seen that I want to play is Astro Bot. One single game.
Immersion as it pertains to standard games is not what all VR games inherently have to strive for. VR games can be simple, arcadey, concise, snappy-- in other words, not at all burdened by the constraints of realism.
 

the-pi-guy

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,269
There's a thousand little reasons you can give, and I'm sure you have a thousands counters, but it's much like gyro controls and PC gaming, there are some people who just aren't going to like them because they just couldn't get into them personally. You can pound them over the head with facts, or stats, or graphs or whatever. I think that's part of the problem I describe. Maybe 'elitism' is the wrong word, but when you're unable to accept that some people just are not into something you are, especially a certain technology, it becomes a constant game of debate, where you must 'defeat' the doubter. I don't know, I also think it makes people overly defensive about such things as well, which kind of all feeds into it.
None of this feels like a reply to what I was talking about. I can completely understand not liking VR right now. It's relatively low quality, it's heavy, there's a lot of problems.
But as a concept, I just view that VR is something can be whatever you want it to be. So to say you dislike it in concept just feels like saying you don't want what you want. But I think that comes down to people having different ideas of what VR as a concept is. And your examples of PC gaming and rumble really feel like they exemplify that for me. For me, VR as a concept isn't just a platform or a feature, it's more like a choice.
Like your rumble example. To me it's not like someone not liking rumble. It's more like someone both liking and not liking rumble at the same time.

I don't know if that all really makes sense, and it certainly doesn't help that I'm talking more about a hypothetical future...
 

We_care_a_lot

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,157
Summerside PEI
People were doing the same thing when 3D was popping up on consoles. It was also "just a fad" to some folks in the early-mid 90s

Not sure 3d is the best example you want to use lol. Remember when ps4 games a came with 3d support? it was unquestionably a fad. The fact that it's now relegated to VR which people also consider a fad doesn't really help your argument either. Also are you trying to argue that 3d in the mid 90's wasn't a fad cause it super was haha.

Not saying VR is a necessarily a fad just.....

'people said that about 3d' is not really a strong argument lol
 
Dec 15, 2017
1,590
The thing is... gamers (console gamers most of all) actually don't want innovation. They just wan't iterative improvements. More of the same but better, a faster horse instead of a car. They talk a lot about why the gaming industry does not innovate but then keep begging for remasters, remakes and more games on their favourite dinosaur sagas like Zelda, Call of Duty and Final Fantasy.

VR is still experimental, I applaud Sony since they for once took risks and developed PSVR. Sony is more of a follower instead of a leader in innovation with the Playstation brand so this was quite unexpected of them. Hopefully they can design a PSVR2 headset with BC to PSVR games.

If this upcoming generation is just about shinier graphics, higher resolution and framerates it will be dissapointing the way I see it.
 

Yarbskoo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,980
I want to like VR, but my wallet won't let me.

Also, no VR Rogue Squadron. What's up with that?
 

Deleted member 27315

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,795
If this isnt Elitism then what is ?
You have to support VR if you "love" gaming is cult like behavior.

is Revolution/Evolution elitism? As I said some people back then didn't want polygons at all. I was not an elitist when I was arguing that we really need polygons in gaming
Some people are afraid of change.
 

daegan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,897
The thing that bugs me is when people say "bu, bu, bu, it's the same on the other side with VR elitism!" First, 95% of the time, those "elitists" know a significant amount about the subject, whereas the side that trashes VR with dumb comparisons and "VR is dead" proclamations know very little. Second, those "elitists" are having to constantly respond to misinformation. It's hard not to get defensive, because it's something we have a passion for and find willfull ignorance on the subject to be annoying or insulting.

I think what some of the more vocal posters here miss (some of whom I have on my ignore list) is that consumer behavior doesn't care about the arguments you can have on a message board. Even things that I commonly see like "Quest is selling out! Index is selling out!" lack so much context as to be meaningless. Did they sell out a 1,000 unit shipment? 10,000? 100,000? How often are they restocking? Are these institutional sales? etc. People on either side rarely talk about what goals they're actually aiming for, what they actually think will happen; people openly wishing for the failure of VR certainly have egg on their face but people arguing it's a consumer revolution in the making look equally out of touch. VR just had its biggest name from traditional gaming launch an all-new, hotly anticipated, and very high-quality title and it captured almost none of the zeitgeist outside of VR enthusiast communities. It got a couple rounds of press and quickly faded as attention turned toward Animal Crossing, FF7 Remake, and continued anticipation of new dedicated hardware. If a new Half-Life can't hold more than a couple news cycles, where are things headed? Probably nowhere different from where we are at now - a small, dedicated enthusiast community that buys a good amount of software.
 

Svejk

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
699
People in general will trash anything that they don't agree with... ANYTHING. Not only trash it, but try and make others feel guilty for enjoying something they don't agree with. It's the unfortunate world of today.
 

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
Not as weird as VR fans that attack anyone even just suggesting VR isnt the best thing ever.

Matt Piscatella gets jumped upon everytime he mentions vr sales, because its apparently not ok to report on VR sales unless you twist it so it sounds like they are massive.
I've conversed with Matt before. He actually really loves VR and Astro Bot is his game of the generation. However he doesn't understand how sales work with VR; he comes at it from the perspective of a modern video game anaylst, that everything has to sell as fast as 8th/9th gen consoles. VR doesn't work like that because it's a new medium that has to start from it's first generation - this means sale expectations are more in the low millions just like other 1st generation technologies.

Matt just doesn't get this.

If this isnt Elitism then what is ?
You have to support VR if you "love" gaming is cult like behavior.
VR is inherently a good thing for the game industry. I wouldn't necessarily say you need to support VR to love gaming, but if someone wants VR to die for example, then that's clearly a bad outcome for everyone.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
I think what some of the more vocal posters here miss (some of whom I have on my ignore list) is that consumer behavior doesn't care about the arguments you can have on a message board. Even things that I commonly see like "Quest is selling out! Index is selling out!" lack so much context as to be meaningless. Did they sell out a 1,000 unit shipment? 10,000? 100,000? How often are they restocking? Are these institutional sales? etc. People on either side rarely talk about what goals they're actually aiming for, what they actually think will happen; people openly wishing for the failure of VR certainly have egg on their face but people arguing it's a consumer revolution in the making look equally out of touch. VR just had its biggest name from traditional gaming launch an all-new, hotly anticipated, and very high-quality title and it captured almost none of the zeitgeist outside of VR enthusiast communities. It got a couple rounds of press and quickly faded as attention turned toward Animal Crossing, FF7 Remake, and continued anticipation of new dedicated hardware. If a new Half-Life can't hold more than a couple news cycles, where are things headed? Probably nowhere different from where we are at now - a small, dedicated enthusiast community that buys a good amount of software.

Not every landmark VR title needs to hold popular attention for 3 months straight to be considered impactful, and Alyx is clearly one game in a long list of Valves planned VR titles. Building up an exceptional library of highly-regarded software over time is a tried-and-true method to bust down market barriers and move units. Its not a sprint, and Valve especially has never given the impression that they were only interested in short-term VR results. They are building a long-lasting and high quality library that will serve as the hook for years to come, as tech marches forward and adoption price continues to fall. Years from now, people will be citing Alyx as one of many reasons they want to finally pick up a VR headset, and eventually the price/tech will hit their sweet spot and adoption will continue to increase.
 

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
User Banned (3 days): Inflammatory point of comparison
Claiming people that dont agree with you on VR are the same as flat-earthers is pathetic.
The more I've responded to people, the more it's appeared true. That doesn't mean it's everyone, it just means it's a bunch of people that I've encountered.

Sorry if you don't like it, but the amount of unintelligent responses I've seen really does equal the kind of mindset from a flat-earther. As I said before, all emotion, no logic. This is a flaw - it's not a smart way of thinking because you've tossed facts out the window in place of whatever narrative you're trying to push.

Just today I saw someone (not in here) that said VR needs to die. We're literally in a pandemic and this guy wants it to die. Yes, they are really as dumb as a flat-earther. I'm going to say it.

Humans in general are pretty stupid. The amount of people that thought masks were useless because the US Surgeon General said so is mind-boggling. If people had used their head they'd realize that masks were always useful. Then you have all the people that thought it would be a good idea for some nice vacations at the end of March.
 

Spence

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,119
Sweden
The thing that gets me is that a lot of people who don't like VR seems almost offended by it, like question it's existence and why VR games are being made. It's kinda odd and a very black & white way of thinking.

In reality diversity is a good thing and you don't have to like everything.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
I think what some of the more vocal posters here miss (some of whom I have on my ignore list) is that consumer behavior doesn't care about the arguments you can have on a message board. Even things that I commonly see like "Quest is selling out! Index is selling out!" lack so much context as to be meaningless. Did they sell out a 1,000 unit shipment? 10,000? 100,000? How often are they restocking? Are these institutional sales? etc. People on either side rarely talk about what goals they're actually aiming for, what they actually think will happen; people openly wishing for the failure of VR certainly have egg on their face but people arguing it's a consumer revolution in the making look equally out of touch. VR just had its biggest name from traditional gaming launch an all-new, hotly anticipated, and very high-quality title and it captured almost none of the zeitgeist outside of VR enthusiast communities. It got a couple rounds of press and quickly faded as attention turned toward Animal Crossing, FF7 Remake, and continued anticipation of new dedicated hardware. If a new Half-Life can't hold more than a couple news cycles, where are things headed? Probably nowhere different from where we are at now - a small, dedicated enthusiast community that buys a good amount of software.

Graphs like the ones below clearly show the effect that Half Life Alyx had. Sony has clearly said that the PSVR surpassed their expectations. Michael Zuckerberg has said that the Quest has surpassed their expectations and are selling as fast as they can make them. Valve was clearly not prepared for the demand the Index had. Did you expect for Half Life Alyx to be talked about more on the internet, compared to games like FF7R and Animal Crossing, which are available for purchase to 100+ and 53+ million gamers respectively? If that is your expectation, of course Half Life Alyx was a failure. You can set unreasonable goals for anything and then declare it a failure, or you can clearly see on the graph below and see what a big push for VR was Half Life Alyx. I really need for you to ask yourself if you will reply back with the same type of objetive and concrete information you demand, or if you will just reply back without including anything to support your point.

"Quest has surpassed our expectations. I wish we could make more of them faster during this period."

www.vrfocus.com

Oculus Quest Surpasses Facebook's Expectations, Zuckerberg Wishes They Could Make More - GMW3

The headset has also helped drive up non-ad revenue.

"Sony has sold 4.2 million PlayStation VR headsets as of March, as Dominic Mallinson, senior vice president of R&D at Sony, made sure to point out at Collision 2019 in Toronto this week."

"We're very happy with those numbers and very happy with the position," Mallinson noted.


venturebeat.com

PlayStation’s Dominic Mallinson on next-gen VR, wireless, gaze tracking, foveated rendering, and AR

VentureBeat interview: Dominic Mallinson, senior vice president of R&D at Sony, talks PSVR, wireless, gaze tracking, foveated rendering, and AR.

kotaku.com

PlayStation VR Is Doing Better Than Expected, Sony Says

PlayStation chief Andrew House told The New York Times late last week that PlayStation VR has sold 915,000 units as of February 19. That puts the device on a path to exceed the company’s goal of one million sold in the first six months.

"We are working hard to build more units and meet the high demand."

wccftech.com

Valve Is 'Working Hard' to Meet Index Demand Ahead of Half-Life: Alyx Release

The Valve Index is sold out in all territories and a spokesperson confirmed the company is working hard to fix this ahead of Half-Life: Alyx.

Monthly-Connected-percent-of-headsets-april-2020.png


Oculus-Software-Sales.png


VR-Software-Sales-Trends.png


www.roadtovr.com

2019 Was a Major Inflection Point for VR—Here's the Proof

VR adoption is accelerating thanks to the Oculus Quest. We’ve seen over 100 VR titles break $1 million in revenue, growing the total VR software market by 3x in 2019. Top grossing VR titles have cleared $10 million in revenue, and can reach up to $60 million in sales given the current...
 
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DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
The thing is... gamers (console gamers most of all) actually don't want innovation. They just wan't iterative improvements. More of the same but better, a faster horse instead of a car. They talk a lot about why the gaming industry does not innovate but then keep begging for remasters, remakes and more games on their favourite dinosaur sagas like Zelda, Call of Duty and Final Fantasy.
This is indeed true. It's a lack of vision. The average gamer just isn't able to understand where gaming can go next, and it's why developers and developers alone thought of innovations like 3D graphics, analog sticks, mouselook. Gamers were not suggesting these or begging for them; the industry forced them on gamers because that's how progress is made.

Indeed, people would ask for faster horses rather than automobiles.
 

daegan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,897
This is the exact kind of post I'm talking about. Of course they're "happy" with their numbers, because things are selling period. That's not in dispute. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that selling out nebulous quantities is not a mass-market proposition and it does not show signs of changing anytime soon. If Oculus sold 10m they would tell you. PSVR is a great example as it has been available for years at very reasonable prices, with compelling software, and has cracked a negligible part of that market. It's a maturing technology and it is receiving compelling software, of course it would continue to grow, but it's never going to see hundreds of millions of active individual units in the hands of consumers buying software. That's fine. It can be healthy and not be that.
Not every landmark VR title needs to hold popular attention for 3 months straight to be considered impactful, and Alyx is clearly one game in a long list of Valves planned VR titles. Building up an exceptional library of highly-regarded software over time is a tried-and-true method to bust down market barriers and move units. Its not a sprint, and Valve especially has never given the impression that they were only interested in short-term VR results. They are building a long-lasting and high quality library that will serve as the hook for years to come, as tech marches forward and adoption price continues to fall. Years from now, people will be citing Alyx as one of many reasons they want to finally pick up a VR headset, and eventually the price/tech will hit their sweet spot and adoption will continue to increase.
Judging Alyx's impact as a VR title is playing with a handicap; when viewed through that lens, as part of a platform holder-style strategy, it is likely a solid investment (though I'm real interested to see if it has any kind of long tail.) But that's telling half the story. It's a new Half-Life game. I don't think there's a single poster on this board who would have argued three or more years ago that a new Half-Life would be gasping for widespread attention - even/especially from enthusiast media - when faced up against a new Animal Crossing. A game of that pedigree and of that quality should be spurring massive amounts of FOMO, viral posts... it should be getting at least some attention from people who can't buy it right now or maybe never will be in that position. Instead it's in a situation where, sure, it's doing well (with the requisite caveat: for a VR game) but it's kind of forgotten beyond that crowd. That's how you build a foundation for a revolution that never manifests.
 

Lyre

Alt Account
Banned
Feb 12, 2020
2,996
London
A lot of people hate new control schemes: look at the Wii.

VR is great, the tech isn't there yet but when it is, oh my!
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
This is the exact kind of post I'm talking about. Of course they're "happy" with their numbers, because things are selling period. That's not in dispute. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that selling out nebulous quantities is not a mass-market proposition and it does not show signs of changing anytime soon. If Oculus sold 10m they would tell you. PSVR is a great example as it has been available for years at very reasonable prices, with compelling software, and has cracked a negligible part of that market. It's a maturing technology and it is receiving compelling software, of course it would continue to grow, but it's never going to see hundreds of millions of active individual units in the hands of consumers buying software. That's fine. It can be healthy and not be that.

What the articles I shared with you prove, is that currently the companies I mentioned are reaching and surpassing their goals. We don't need to know exactly in numbers what they were, just that they were reached and surpassed. They are aware of the current limitation that VR has and there is a limited market of people that will take the time to setup something with a bunch of wires and has a certain cost, but what happens as these factors improve? When Sony publicly announces that the PSVR sold 5 million units and at the same time talk about how this number exceeded their expectations, the answer for that cannot be that they only "cracked a negligible part of that market.". The only way I'm able to see that, is that by Sony's own admission, they are going faster than expected. When or if VR reaches mainstream numbers (under whatever definition you have) or how fast will it get there is another discussion. Although it should be obvious to anyone that the growth for VR is accelerating, that part should be undeniable. Your job as someone that says that VR/AR is "never going to see hundreds of millions of active individual", is to point out when do you expect for the growth to stop. Take the graph below and say, something like "The market will stop growing at 10-20 million active users." and explain why is that the case. Every time that new and improved VR hardware is released, the sales improve, sales for VR games is also improving rapidly. So when does improvement and growth stops happening for VR hardware and software?


Monthly-Connected-percent-of-headsets-april-2020.png


"The result reveals a trend of headset adoption that's a near perfect exponential growth curve."

www.roadtovr.com

Analysis: Monthly Connected VR Headsets on Steam Have Grown Exponentially

Valve’s monthly Steam Survey has long offered some useful insight into which headsets are actively connected to users computers and the share of the Steam population that’s using each, but the figures provided are relative to the non-static Steam population, which obfuscates the actual adoption...
 
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Oct 28, 2017
2,734
People are not thrashing VR. The large majority of Video Gamers just doesn't like VR for different reasons and VR enthusiasts are not able to accept that.

The large majority of video gamers haven't even experienced a top tier VR game (the current high water mark being Half Life Alyx on a decent PCVR headset). They don't have the experience yet to make a firm judgement about VR anyway, and it isn't the sort of experience you can "imagine" or get a good idea about watching other people play Alyx on a flat screen on Twitch.

As someone heavily invested in VR (Rift S, PSVR) I have to admit I was a big doubter myself until Alyx. The boom of 2016-2018 VR games could provide really engaging arcade experiences and some decent platformers but anything that tried to go deeper would quickly show how undeveloped both the tools (like engines made for flat screen games) and techniques are. I like having an arcade in my home but for most people that isn't enough given the cost- it would be like buying arcade machines for yourself in 1980 to get a single top tier video game. I even would call VR "retro-futuristic" to my friends, meaning it felt like what the past would thought the future would be.

But Alyx changed everything for me. Some people call it the Mario 64 of VR, but really its the Super Mario Bros of VR. It is the first game to really reach past the arcade experience with a full quality, and take the mechanics and atmosphere of VR and push the entire format into something I think can have mainstream appeal. I have every other game VR game you can list that tried to get there, but Alyx is more than the some of its parts and has a polish that defines the experience. Its the first VR game that feels like the real future instead of the retro future, like the first time I played a game against someone online on my PC in the early 1990s.

But just like with online gameplay, it is going to take a while to get a VR experience at the quality of Alyx on a nice PCVR headset at a price point where the large majority of gamers even get to experience it. Maybe the PSVR2 will be a jumping point, maybe not, but I feel like once the majority of gamers play a VR game at the level of Alyx they will demand more and it could go "mainstream" as in not a replacement to 2D gaming but as part of the mix kinda like how Xbox Live introduced console gamers to online gaming in the 1990s and online multiplayer games have never not been important since.
 

Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
Well, there are a view that trash it to much (some because of valid reasons, some because they cant afort it, etc)

Fact is, even cheap headsets cost like whole new consoles (or more, see: the index) but dont have the amount of games you'll get from a new console.
Also, you need the power to drive a headset. With PSVR you need a PS4. People can argue that its not true, but looking at the Steam stats, and over the world...either you live in a priviliged country or have more money than you need, but the high end pc market is not a mass market.
And as long as the prices and komplexity is as high as it is, i would not count on the mass market to jump in, and youll see people attack it cause its "to niche".

Quest was a good start, bit it will take even more time, and for enthusiasts, the quest is othen described as a "starting point" or "gimick", but "true vr is roomscale VR"... and a lot of people just dont have the space.
 

daegan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,897
What the articles I shared with you prove, is that currently the companies I mentioned are reaching and surpassing their goals. We don't need to know exactly in numbers what they were, just that they were reached and surpassed. They are aware of the current limitation that VR has, there is a limited market of people that will take the time to setup something with a bunch of wires and has a certain cost, but what happens as these factors improve? When Sony publicly announces that the PSVR sold 5 million units and at the same time talk about how this number exceeded their expectations, the answer for that cannot be that they only "cracked a negligible part of that market.". The only way I'm able to see that, is that by Sony's own admission, they are going faster than expected. When or if VR reaches mainstream numbers (under whatever definition you have) or how fast will it get there is another discussion. Although it should be obvious to anyone that the growth for VR is accelerating, that part should be undeniable. Your job as someone that says that VR/AR is "never going to see hundreds of millions of active individual", is to point out when do you expect for the growth to stop. Take the graph below and say, something like "The market stop growing at 10-20 million active users." and explain why is that the case. Every time that new and improved VR hardware is released, the sales improve, sales for VR games is also improving rapidly. So when does improvement and growth stops happening for VR hardware and software?


Monthly-Connected-percent-of-headsets-april-2020.png


"The result reveals a trend of headset adoption that's a near perfect exponential growth curve."

www.roadtovr.com

Analysis: Monthly Connected VR Headsets on Steam Have Grown Exponentially

Valve’s monthly Steam Survey has long offered some useful insight into which headsets are actively connected to users computers and the share of the Steam population that’s using each, but the figures provided are relative to the non-static Steam population, which obfuscates the actual adoption...
Sony can set whatever goal for sales they want, but if I'm making decisions about what group to develop software for, I'm going to take the pool of 100m users rather than the ~5% subset of that every time. That's what I mean by negligible and why I can frame it in that way; it's impactful for them internally as part of the project but irrelevant to the market as a whole.

I actually like the idea of monthly connected headsets as a metric as it helps to balance the effect of upgrading ("every time that new and improved VR hardware is released, the sales improve" - yes, often to the same people.) But it's things like that that make it hard to say "oh they'll sell x million headsets over time." Since you asked nicely, I'll frame it somewhat: it will be at least 10 years before a VR-only title does $150m+ in revenue and I don't know that you'll ever see it be comparable to a top-10 calendar year NPD title.
Niche is used as a negative too much when it comes to VR.
I don't disagree, but I think a lot of enthusiasts are allergic to the idea of it staying niche forever.
 

The Deleter

Member
Sep 22, 2019
3,533
The way gamers have such an aversion to anything related to VR astounds me sometimes

It's a brand new way to explore and experience games and the worlds they offer how is that something to inherently hate
 

JoeNut

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,482
UK
It seems a lot of money for an accessory required to play a small bunch of games I have little interest in. I wouldn't bash it, it's just not worth the investment yet for me personally
 

WhtR88t

Member
May 14, 2018
4,579
Personally I feel like it's finding it's own community and that's pretty cool! It's a very interesting space to play around in. I've really enjoyed having my Quest and it feels like it's constantly getting upgraded with new and exciting technologies and experiences. The hand tracking and new passthrough stuff is very cool and I can't wait to see what developers do with it.

I've kind of tried to abandon convincing people of it's relevance– not worth it and there's clearly a group of people that enjoy it, the tech is evolving, it's continuing to be exciting to those who are interested/invested.

As long as there are developers who are interested in continuing to develop new experiences, try things, figure out what works and what doesn't that's all I need. Who cares what other people think about it.
 

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
it will be at least 10 years before a VR-only title does $150m+ in revenue and I don't know that you'll ever see it be comparable to a top-10 calendar year NPD title.
If Alyx sells a million copies, it will have done $60 million in revenue. Expecting the first AAA game to reach 3 million copies sold no sooner than 10 years would be incredibly slow growth. I think you'll be surprised; I could see that happening with a solid late-gen PSVR2 title or an Oculus Quest 2 title.

I don't disagree, but I think a lot of enthusiasts are allergic to the idea of it staying niche forever.
Because they're aware that all the points people use for it being forever niche are going to be fixed. People can't comphrend how things can move forward; people even believe there are supposed insurmountable problems inherent to the medium that will keep it niche.

An example of this is isolation. I can understand why people would think this, because how is VR supposed to somehow fix the total immersion that some people just don't want? Yet it's doable.
 

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,252
Sony can set whatever goal for sales they want, but if I'm making decisions about what group to develop software for, I'm going to take the pool of 100m users rather than the ~5% subset of that every time. That's what I mean by negligible and why I can frame it in that way; it's impactful for them internally as part of the project but irrelevant to the market as a whole.

I actually like the idea of monthly connected headsets as a metric as it helps to balance the effect of upgrading ("every time that new and improved VR hardware is released, the sales improve" - yes, often to the same people.) But it's things like that that make it hard to say "oh they'll sell x million headsets over time." Since you asked nicely, I'll frame it somewhat: it will be at least 10 years before a VR-only title does $150m+ in revenue and I don't know that you'll ever see it be comparable to a top-10 calendar year NPD title.

I don't disagree, but I think a lot of enthusiasts are allergic to the idea of it staying niche forever.

Beat Saber was estimated to have done 67+ million last March.

www.roadtovr.com

'Beat Saber' Has Sold 2 Million Copies & 10 Million Songs for an Estimated $67M

As VR’s best-selling title, Beat Saber is showing no signs of slowing down. Today Facebook, which now owns the studio behind the game, announced that Beat Saber has sold more than 2 million copies and 10 million songs via DLC. Beat Saber is the closest thing VR has seen yet to a ‘killer app’...

Unless something unseats it as the defacto killer app, I could see it hitting 150 in another year or so. Especially if Oculus can build on the Quest momentum they had started to build last fall and get more supply out there.

You might be talking about normal game sales, which we're a lot further away from. But before something can become commonplace, you need to have a single someone do it first. And we're not that far away from someone doing it.
 

HardRojo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,091
Peru
Not being interested in it is fine, but being overly negative to a technology that, in time and with proper support, will give us the kind of experiences regular gaming on a screen won't be able to, is being petty in my opinion. Some of those people act like VR is here to replace gaming as we currently know it, but playing on a screen like always and VR can coexist just fine and you can enjoy both. It kinds of reminds me of the "GAMEPLAY IS KING!!" obnoxious crowd, there were people who didn't like those Telltale kind of games and visual novels, but man, diversity is what makes this medium great, we can pick and choose what to play from a vast catalogue and several genres.
 

Cyanity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,345
I think the biggest issue with VR and its current troubles sharing mindspace with the mainstream gaming community come down to cost. For those of us who are keyed into the tech, $300-400 for a top-tier VR device that can do everything the valve index is currently doing is probably the sweet spot. But many people cannot afford another several hundred dollar device on top of their home console and are understandably annoyed at the prospect, especially if they also need to build a PC to get the best VR has to offer.

IMO, VR is going to hit mainstream if Sony puts out a PSVR 2 that has internal tracking and high-quality hand and finger tracking at the $200-300 price point, thanks to sunk cost bias.

Also, I think the arguments about accessibility are often disingenuous. Accessibility in modern PC gaming has come a long way over the past decade or so, and I'm sure VR will also evolve in that aspect over time.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
Sony can set whatever goal for sales they want, but if I'm making decisions about what group to develop software for, I'm going to take the pool of 100m users rather than the ~5% subset of that every time. That's what I mean by negligible and why I can frame it in that way; it's impactful for them internally as part of the project but irrelevant to the market as a whole.

The only thing needs to be understood about goals is that they are based on expectations and on the examples I shared, they are being surpassed. If you want to talk about how the situation has been improving or not for VR software developers, that is a different subject and I recommend you to check the article below for some numbers.

VR-Software-Sales-Trends.png


"Based on our estimates, we see 2019 as a major inflection point for the entire market, almost tripling yearly revenue to nearly $300 million across all platforms. This is mostly driven by the success of Oculus but also a significant uplift in the PSVR marketplace mainly driven by the success of Beat Saber and other new hit VR games.

What makes Oculus interesting is how much it has grown the market in the past year, if you look purely at software revenue. Sony announced sales of PlayStation VR in January 2020: 5 million headsets over the last four years. Our estimates suggest nearly $110 million in software revenue recorded in 2019. Oculus hasn't announced how many Quests are out there, but given that it's probably a much smaller install base, it's impressive to see it drive nearly $60 million in software revenue for 2019."

www.roadtovr.com

2019 Was a Major Inflection Point for VR—Here's the Proof

VR adoption is accelerating thanks to the Oculus Quest. We’ve seen over 100 VR titles break $1 million in revenue, growing the total VR software market by 3x in 2019. Top grossing VR titles have cleared $10 million in revenue, and can reach up to $60 million in sales given the current...

I actually like the idea of monthly connected headsets as a metric as it helps to balance the effect of upgrading ("every time that new and improved VR hardware is released, the sales improve" - yes, often to the same people.) But it's things like that that make it hard to say "oh they'll sell x million headsets over time." Since you asked nicely, I'll frame it somewhat: it will be at least 10 years before a VR-only title does $150m+ in revenue and I don't know that you'll ever see it be comparable to a top-10 calendar year NPD title.

How there are a lot of the same people that buy the new hardware is nothing new. The same applies for consoles, so nothing revelatory there. Usually the old hardware is sold to people that wanted to jump in, but the prices were too expensive for them. The important factor I need you to focus on is how the amount of active users grew by almost a million users and previous to that the VR market was already growing.

You can set any type of arbitrary goals you want and that is OK, but I asked you a question based on a comment you made, but you didn't answer. I will post it again below.

Your job as someone that says that VR/AR is "never going to see hundreds of millions of active individual", is to point out when do you expect for the growth to stop. Take the graph below and say, something like "The market stop growing at 10-20 million active users." and explain why is that the case. Every time that new and improved VR hardware is released, the sales improve, sales for VR games is also improving rapidly. So when does improvement and growth stops happening for VR hardware and software?

Monthly-Connected-percent-of-headsets-april-2020.png
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
A good example of how things will continue to improve with VR. This is the type of information that is usually shared when people say comments like VR causes motion sickness so it will never be mainstream. DarthBuzzard have you seen this one?




"The results from the 240 participant study show a significant improvement in comfort and an improvement in realism from the haptics compared to the other methods tested."

www.roadtovr.com

Researchers Say Head-mounted Haptics Can Combat Smooth Locomotion Discomfort in VR

Researchers from the National Taiwan University, National Chengchi University, and Texas A&M University say that haptic feedback delivered to the head right from a VR headset can significantly reduce discomfort related to smooth locomotion in VR. Moving players artificially through large virtual...
 

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
A good example of how things will continue to improve with VR. DarthBuzzard have you seen this one?



"The results from the 240 participant study show a significant improvement in comfort and an improvement in realism from the haptics compared to the other methods tested."

www.roadtovr.com

Researchers Say Head-mounted Haptics Can Combat Smooth Locomotion Discomfort in VR

Researchers from the National Taiwan University, National Chengchi University, and Texas A&M University say that haptic feedback delivered to the head right from a VR headset can significantly reduce discomfort related to smooth locomotion in VR. Moving players artificially through large virtual...
I saw it earlier today. There's increasingly more evidence to suggest that vibrations on the head can greatly combat motion sickness, since it overwhelms the inner ear with white noise, supposedly cancelling out the ability for it to throw "You've been poisoned and need to throw up!" signals.


The main issue is how much it might annoy people. That remains to be seen.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
I saw it earlier today. There's increasingly more evidence to suggest that vibrations on the head can greatly combat motion sickness, since it overwhelms the inner ear with white noise, supposedly cancelling out the ability for it to throw "You've been poisoned and need to throw up!" signals.


The main issue is how much it might annoy people. That remains to be seen.

Yeah, very interesting stuff and it doesn't seem like an expensive solution. Since it's timed with each step I can see how you could learn to ignore it in time. It also depends on how strong it is. I see more testing is needed while standing.
 
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daegan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,897
, almost tripling yearly revenue to nearly $300 million across all platforms.
$300m as the entirety of a SW market is a drop in the bucket, tripling previous or no. (It's also hard to break down when it includes PS sales, as it doesn't say if this includes games that just have VR as an option.) Again, I think $150m is the revenue ceiling for a VR title and that's several years away. I'm not going to say "they'll stop selling at X number" because that's not how a healthy niche works - new people will buy in, old people will drop interest, the install base increases even if engagement stays the same. But for VR to be the kind of societally impactful concept to be on the level of game consoles, to say nothing of smartphones (which I bring up because I have seen outspoken members here assert it as a comparison point for VR) it would need to cultivate a software market well into the billions.
Beat Saber was estimated to have done 67+ million last March.

www.roadtovr.com

'Beat Saber' Has Sold 2 Million Copies & 10 Million Songs for an Estimated $67M

As VR’s best-selling title, Beat Saber is showing no signs of slowing down. Today Facebook, which now owns the studio behind the game, announced that Beat Saber has sold more than 2 million copies and 10 million songs via DLC. Beat Saber is the closest thing VR has seen yet to a ‘killer app’...

Unless something unseats it as the defacto killer app, I could see it hitting 150 in another year or so. Especially if Oculus can build on the Quest momentum they had started to build last fall and get more supply out there.

You might be talking about normal game sales, which we're a lot further away from. But before something can become commonplace, you need to have a single someone do it first. And we're not that far away from someone doing it.
Beat Saber was the one game which gave me pause when I said this, particularly since it can drive DLC more than most games as a music-based title. But while I do expect it to have a long tail, these kinds of predictions aren't fun without any risk that I'm wrong. :) (My expectation is that it fades into the zeitgeist of the time not unlike Guitar Hero, Rock Band, etc and ends its meaningful lifecycle in the $90-110m range. But I'd love to be wrong!)
 
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Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
$300m as the entirety of a SW market is a drop in the bucket, tripling previous or no. (It's also hard to break down when it includes PS sales, as it doesn't say if this includes games that just have VR as an option.) Again, I think $150m is the revenue ceiling for a VR title and that's several years away.

Beat Saber was the one game which gave me pause when I said this, particularly since it can drive DLC more than most games as a music-based title. But while I do expect it to have a long tail, these kinds of predictions aren't fun without any risk that I'm wrong. :)

I don't understand why you are trying to have a discussion as if I'm saying "look at how big the numbers are, amazing right?". All I'm doing is sharing the information that proves the way VR has been growing and how that growth is accelerating. The less time we spend talking about how these numbers are small, relative to the console market, the better. That is not the point at all. So when I ask "when does improvement and growth stops happening for VR hardware and software?" your answer is "Again, I think $150m is the revenue ceiling for a VR title and that's several years away.". The question I made was based on your comment about how VR/AR is "never going to see hundreds of millions of active individual". What I'm asking is for clarification on when do you expect for the market growth to stop and why. Does it stop at 30 million active users? 40? 50? and why?
 

daegan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,897
I don't understand why you are trying to have a discussion as if I'm saying "look at how big the numbers are, amazing right?". All I'm doing is sharing the information that proves the way VR has been growing and how that growth is accelerating. The less time we spend talking about how these numbers are small, relative to the console market, the better. That is not the point at all. So when I ask "when does improvement and growth stops happening for VR hardware and software?" your answer is "Again, I think $150m is the revenue ceiling for a VR title and that's several years away.". The question I made was made based on your comment about how VR/AR is "never going to see hundreds of millions of active individual". What I'm asking is for clarification on when do you expect for the market growth to stop and why. Does it stop at 30 million active users? 40? 50? and why?
I don't think the market will grow past the capability of a single title to make $150m revenue in a reasonable stretch post launch (I'm clarifying to duck a little responsibility if a title keeps selling 8 years+ on to eke past $150m well into its lifecycle ;D) but for many reasons I'm not going to put an active install base number on it because I don't know that anyone has an accurate count right now (probably 8m-14m?? maybe??) If you're married to the idea you can say less than 100m?

As for why, it stops growing because it's unappealing on a mainstream level for reasons that are rehashed every time this pops up but all boil down to it is something that a much greater range of people think is cool vs something they are going to spend money on and feed more software and time to.
 

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
As for why, it stops growing because it's unappealing on a mainstream level for reasons that are rehashed every time this pops up but all boil down to it is something that a much greater range of people think is cool vs something they are going to spend money on and feed more software and time to.
And yet you're not understanding that these unappealing issues can get fixed over time.

It's not like there's something inherently wrong with the medium or the idea of VR.