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Yabberwocky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,260
For me, God of War is a complicated example of revisiting frustrating tropes/cliches that absolutely do annoy me, but yet they do so in interesting ways:

Faye - fridged mother, but also a chessmaster to the events of the game, and a complete badass. The finale reveal also adds a dash of moral ambiguity to her dynamic with her husband and son, which I'm curious to see if they explore in the future.

Freya - urrghhh at everything with her and Baldur in the finale, but a compelling character throughout.

Valkyries - technically damsels in distress, but yet, terrifying badasses. Sigrun put the fear of god into me in a way few bosses have outside of the Soulsborne games.

Neither Freya nor the Valkyries designs were sexualized, either, which was refreshing and important step for the series.

The one thing that annoyed me 1000% more than any of the above was that Kratos didn't tell Atreus about the fact he'd killed his first wife and daughter. As this fact had been so much of Kratos' guilt and motivation from the past games, the fact that this didn't get discussed was downright absurd. It felt like Kratos' guilt over killing his piece of shit corrupted father took priority over his accidental (accidental via hubris?) murder of his innocent wife and daughter. In one of the interviews with the writers after the game's release, they talked about how it was a bit too much to deal with story-wise in one game, and will hopefully be material to revisit in the future. Was it a Game Informer interview? I can understand this perspective from a writing standpoint, as the core of the game was the relationship between father and a son. The unfortunate side effect, though, was that it made Kratos' moment of catharsis with bandages in the finale fall really flat and become almost silly for me, because until Kratos acknowledges the full truth of his past to Atreus, he isn't free at all. I ultimately felt pretty disgusted that Kratos' fear of Atreus finding out he killed his father was prioritized over his murdered wife and child.

Basically, I have complicated feelings on God of War. I love the game, and it's my GOTY. It does great and extremely important things, especially unraveling toxic masculinity and the cycles of abuse. It's just a shame that all of this came at the expense of the female characters. It's a fair enough topic for Abby to bring up.

If she feels that women need better/more representation, should consider create a game herself and fill the missing gap. Instead of telling others how to express themselves in a product that is a piece of art.

And the aim of the creator is to turn his vision into a product he is proud of, and hopefully earn a living from it.

Any criticism or discussion point on a subject being shut down with a 'well, go make it yourself!' is really, really frustrating - and also hypocritically hilarious, considering the focus of this forum is gaming and entertainment discussion, and only a very small portion of users would actually work in either of these industries. Surely 98-99% of users on Era are armchair developers?

Hey, Abby, spend years learning to be a game dev and/or writer, before you can criticize anything! It'll be fun, I promise! ...enjoy the long hours and terrible pay. As a woman in the industry, it's going to be even more fun! Yay!

The sanctity of a creator and their vision is also pretty fanciful, too, as it's a miracle if a creator's product reaches release with being mostly intact. The romanticizing of just one member of a team (which frequently tends to be directors) glosses over the valuable contributions of team members in all levels that contribute to a final product. Saying that Abby should become a creator is pretty patronizing, too, and it implies that it's an easy thing to do, which it isn't. There are already so many diverse voices in the entertainment industry fighting tooth and nail to get their stories told, but have their stories warped, torn apart, or thrown away entirely. It's brutal.

I respect that God of War was a very personal journey for Barlog, especially him being a father with a young son. I think Barlog's own father may have been involved in elements of the writing process? I love the game, I think it's a beautiful, emotional, and memorable experience. But as a creator, your work does not exist in a void if you choose to show it to the world. It's for consumption, and that comes with both good and bad. God of War did many incredible things, and in the process, also made some missteps on the way. And that's okay, as long as they keep learning. The team at SSM had already made positive steps from their previous games. I can't wait to see what they do next.
 
Mar 10, 2018
8,737
My problem is literally everything you mentioned in post is done in the service of Kratos and Atreus.
...Becuase that's her husband and son? Like what?

How else is a dead mother character to be written in this scenario? Everything she set in place before her death was to the service of the family she would leave behind, which just so happens to be two males, yes. She is just fulfilling a traditional mother role. The story wouldn't have worked if she were alive, as the whole premise of the game is to scatter her ashes in Jotunheim, something she deliberately requested. The entire game rests upon Faye's agency. There is no game without her.
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
I understand it is not a genre but a theme/trope but the suggestion to just kill it off is very stupid IMO.

There are many Mario games without this trope already that was the series used in the comment I replied to. Saying there can never be another Mario game with a damsel in distress is what I am opposed to.

The idea to kill off the trope because it us not PC is not right.

Honestly, the Mario saving Peach thing is probably better off dead. It's already been established that Peach can more than take care of herself in so many games that it's just ridiculous at this point.

My problem is literally everything you mentioned in post is done in the service of Kratos and Atreus.

I think it's a lot less clear than that. Their entire quest was fulfilling a prophecy that she set up. She may have died, but their quest was one the one she orchestrated. She had battled against the Aesir, but when she foresaw her own death, she instead set everything up for her son to take the journey to Jotunheim and, I assume, take up her mantle in the fight against Odin.
 
Last edited:
Oct 28, 2017
5,210
I think the point you're failing to understand, which goes back to your issues with Abby and how she responded to the complaints around the game, is you're not realising that not everyone sees these indirect references and allegories as an inherently negative thing, nor relating to any one specific thing. Some actually find them well done, making the narrative more emotionally resonant and relatable, others think they were on the nose and ropey, but complimentary to the impact of the story nonetheless, and then a minority such as yourself, finds them ham-fisted and pathetic or insensitive altogether. Most did not perceive these elements of the game the way you did, and presumably neither did Abby, so there's no point getting upset at her for not agreeing with, more forcefully arguing about, or being dismissive to issues or complaints that she may not have even fully acknowledged or agreed with herself.
Yeah and some people think it's better that GoW only has women being either murdered or willing to be murdered, so what? Abby's argument is that it is shitty and I'm saying Detroit's representation is shitty. Your counter argument is seriously "but you don't realize that people may have different opinions on if it's bad".....
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
In that case, there would be less boss fights and more fetch quests.
Not if you fight guards with unique powers and abilities instead of the valkyries.

I'm really just removing the fights against the valkyries and try to twist it around a bit. It would be even better if they weren't even inprisoned since the "save a damsel in distress" is a classic trope, so maybe if they dropped the corruption idea all together and just had other bosses for whatever reason but let the valkyries come in and save Kratos at a boss fight where he would otherwise die.

The serie is probably a trioligy again, with Thor as the main boss in the next game, and Odin in the last one, so theres still many ideas that can be implemented, the Valkyries being one of them.
yeah already mentioned that earlier, I too think GoW 2018 is just the start, both the valkyries and Freya will be back for sure. Time will tell how they treat them. I hope Freya gets a better role than "being a crazy woman Kratos must knock some sense into" considering how it ended since I doubt that he'll actually kill her. Odin is the end boss for sure in the third game as you say, and yup Thor is the main villain for the second game considering the post-end ending.
 

Readler

Member
Oct 6, 2018
1,972
Not if you fight guards with unique powers and abilities instead of the valkyries.

I'm really just removing the fights against the valkyries and try to twist it around a bit. It would be even better if they weren't even inprisoned since the "save a damsel in distress" is a classic trope, so maybe if they dropped the corruption idea all together and just had other bosses for whatever reason but let the valkyries come in and save Kratos at a boss fight where he would otherwise die.
Is it really "a damsel in distress"?

The way I see it, "damsel in distress" is based upon the idea that a woman cannot take care of herself, as she's weak and fragile, and needs to be saved by a strong man. Think Rapunzel, or Peach even.
The Valkyries are quite the opposite. I still haven't beaten Sigrun for instance lol. They were so powerful and so much of a threat to Odin that they had to be contained. I'd say they're rather badasses in distress, than damsels in distress.
I just thought, and I believe that's an appeal of God of War as a franchise, that it's cool to fight the VALKYRIES! Like, they're these super badass mythological creatures and you get to FIGHT THEM. So I think fighting some nameless guards would just be kind of "eh".
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
Is it really "a damsel in distress"?

The way I see it, "damsel in distress" is based upon the idea that a woman cannot take care of herself, as she's weak and fragile, and needs to be saved by a strong man. Think Rapunzel, or Peach even.
The Valkyries are quite the opposite. I still haven't beaten Sigrun for instance lol. They were so powerful and so much of a threat to Odin that they had to be contained. I'd say they're rather badasses in distress, than damsels in distress.
I just thought, and I believe that's an appeal of God of War as a franchise, that it's cool to fight the VALKYRIES! Like, they're these super badass mythological creatures and you get to FIGHT THEM. So I think fighting some nameless guards would just be kind of "eh".
There are plenty of badass mythological creatures in this world, picking something else for awesome boss fights shouldn't be difficult. In fact, if it's something I'm surprised about with this otherwise amazing game then it's that it has so few boss fights. But the next game should be better, fighting Thor will be all kinds of awesome!
 

Bold One

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
18,911
There are plenty of badass mythological creatures in this world, picking something else for awesome boss fights shouldn't be difficult. In fact, if it's something I'm surprised about with this otherwise amazing game then it's that it has so few boss fights. But the next game should be better, fighting Thor will be all kinds of awesome!
So you can't fight women in games, is that what sexism is to some of you?
 

Readler

Member
Oct 6, 2018
1,972
There are plenty of badass mythological creatures in this world, picking something else for awesome boss fights shouldn't be difficult. In fact, if it's something I'm surprised about with this otherwise amazing game then it's that it has so few boss fights. But the next game should be better, fighting Thor will be all kinds of awesome!
I agree, the boss fights were really lacking this time (yay, another golem!). As someone who's only played God of War '18, I was disappointed that we didn't get something like Zeus, or the Colossi from the earlier titles. But the sequels should be kick ass.
I have a question, though. You said it would have been okay if we fought other creatures - is it only problematic because the Valkyries were women? I mean, I could understand the point about the Valkyries being badly portrayed; if they were, I dunno, super-sexualised, objectified, weak, and in need of saving - but they weren't.
 

FF Seraphim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,727
Tokyo
There are plenty of badass mythological creatures in this world, picking something else for awesome boss fights shouldn't be difficult. In fact, if it's something I'm surprised about with this otherwise amazing game then it's that it has so few boss fights. But the next game should be better, fighting Thor will be all kinds of awesome!

What could they have used instead that would be within the time constraints of developing the game? Sure there are a lot of interesting mythical creatures in the Norse mythoes but would of any of them have the same impact and make sense fighting that many times?
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
So you can't fight women in games, is that what sexism is to some of you?
Eh? It's just an old boring ingredient in games to get to play as a strong man and save a woman (...even if in this case the women are powerful and corrupted and you have to beat their physical brainwashed form before you save them yadayadayada).
Why not twist it around, have the strong women save the soon to be dead strong man instead? Would've been more interesting imo.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
What could they have used instead that would be within the time constraints of developing the game? Sure there are a lot of interesting mythical creatures in the Norse mythoes but would of any of them have the same impact and make sense fighting that many times?
What made the valkyrie fights so special that they couldn't have had other boss fights instead? To me they were almost shoehorned into the game since you didn't have to fight them, and I never even bothered doing them all because I got bored. :P
 

Bold One

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
18,911
Eh? It's just an old boring ingredient in games to get to play as a strong man and save a woman (...even if in this case the women are powerful and corrupted and you have to beat their physical brainwashed form before you save them yadayadayada).
Why not twist it around, have the strong women save the soon to be dead strong man instead? Would've been more interesting imo.
You are taking some swings here,

Its God of War, Kratos is not going to send them to therapy or the prescribe them antibiotics for their corruption and hope it goes away. Every problem is solved through violence - Kratos isn't there to rescue anyone, he and the player is driven by loot which the Valkyries drop on their defeat.

after reading some of your other replies, pardon me, but I deduce that you're either trolling or feigning density.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
I have a question, though. You said it would have been okay if we fought other creatures - is it only problematic because the Valkyries were women? I mean, I could understand the point about the Valkyries being badly portrayed; if they were, I dunno, super-sexualised, objectified, weak, and in need of saving - but they weren't.
Don't know tbh, I just thought they were odd additions to an otherwise amazing game, I never bothered fighting them all.
However, I certainly wouldn't have liked it if "The Stranger" was a woman and the fights were the same. :s
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
You are taking some swings here,

Its God of War, Kratos is not going to send them to therapy or the prescribe them antibiotics for their corruption and hope it goes away. Every problem is solved through violence - Kratos isn't there to rescue anyone, he and the player is driven by loot which the Valkyries drop on their defeat.

after reading some of your other replies, pardon me, but I deduce that you're either trolling or feigning density.
That's a weak defense for it imo but if you think they couldn't have made the valkyrias more interesting then good for you I guess, personally I'm hoping they return in the future games to show their power in a more meaningful way.
 

WhovianGamer

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,033
What made the valkyrie fights so special that they couldn't have had other boss fights instead? To me they were almost shoehorned into the game since you didn't have to fight them, and I never even bothered doing them all because I got bored. :P

It's called optional content. A lot of games have it.

Even if the Valkries were not present in the game, I'd have been content with Freya and Faye's roles within the game as the sole female representation. Given that the story hinged on parenthood, their roles in that area were really good and brought about new elements from Kratos and Atreus.
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,382
What made the valkyrie fights so special that they couldn't have had other boss fights instead? To me they were almost shoehorned into the game since you didn't have to fight them, and I never even bothered doing them all because I got bored. :P

Cory and the rest of SSM rather frequently talk about how much Japanese games inspire them. It's pretty common in Japanese games in general to have boss fights that are entirely optional due to them requiring a higher skill level than the standard bosses. The first Valkyrie that you can fight is much more difficult than any standard boss in the game.
 

Nightengale

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,708
Malaysia
Don't know tbh, I just thought they were odd additions to an otherwise amazing game, I never bothered fighting them all.
However, I certainly wouldn't have liked it if "The Stranger" was a woman and the fight s were the same. :s

Norse mythology has its share of hunter goddesses and warrior goddesses. While I can see the perspective where due to the nature of the Valks being a side-content that isn't tied to the core story making their narrative implementation being less engaging than preferred, ideally speaking - a good representation would to instead have more of the famous goddesses of Norse mythology like Skadi and Hel as central deities that could fight Kratos toe-to-toe.

It's not the lore that SSM has chosen, but in a different take on Norse mythology, it wouldn't had been weird if the Stranger was instead replaced with Skadi, the goddess of hunting to chase and track down Kratos.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
Cory and the rest of SSM rather frequently talk about how much Japanese games inspire them. It's pretty common in Japanese games in general to have boss fights that are entirely optional due to them requiring a higher skill level than the standard bosses. The first Valkyrie that you can fight is much more difficult than any standard boss in the game.
Ah okay I understand. I think the completion rate for GoW is like 50%, making the valkyrie fights mandatory would've most likely stopped me and many others from completing the game. I'm not a "git gud" gamer :P
 

test_account

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,645
Not if you fight guards with unique powers and abilities instead of the valkyries.

I'm really just removing the fights against the valkyries and try to twist it around a bit. It would be even better if they weren't even inprisoned since the "save a damsel in distress" is a classic trope, so maybe if they dropped the corruption idea all together and just had other bosses for whatever reason but let the valkyries come in and save Kratos at a boss fight where he would otherwise die.
I understand. That could have been an idea indeed, but it would require quite a lot of extra work if they needed to create 7 or 8 extra guards/bosses, one for each valkyrie.

I dont think this is really a damsel in distress type of situation. Odin trapped the Valkyries because hes afraid of their power. Its not a case where a "weak" (not sure what the correct word is, but you know what i mean?) woman gets captured and needs saving. Odin also trapped Mimir, and the only way to free him was to cut of his head. Like someone mentioned earlier, basically everyone in the game gets threated bad in one way or another.


yeah already mentioned that earlier, I too think GoW 2018 is just the start, both the valkyries and Freya will be back for sure. Time will tell how they treat them. I hope Freya gets a better role than "being a crazy woman Kratos must knock some sense into" considering how it ended since I doubt that he'll actually kill her. Odin is the end boss for sure in the third game as you say, and yup Thor is the main villain for the second game considering the post-end ending.
It shall be interesting to see what they do further on. Theres a lot of material from norse mythology, and the Valkyries were totally optional in the first game, so who knows if they will include them as a more essential part of the story in the 2nd and/or 3rd game. I wouldnt mind seeing that though, but we'll see what happends :)
 

Orbit

Banned
Nov 21, 2018
1,328
, it wouldn't had been weird if the Stranger was instead replaced with Skadi, the goddess of hunting to chase and track down Kratos.

in the story Baldur was used in order to facilitate the parallel between Atreus/Kratos and Freya/Baldur. The choice of him served the story due to his nature with being immortal and having a curse, such as described in the mythology. The lore around him is also closely associated with Loki, with his death signaling the beginning of the end.
 

FF Seraphim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,727
Tokyo
What made the valkyrie fights so special that they couldn't have had other boss fights instead? To me they were almost shoehorned into the game since you didn't have to fight them, and I never even bothered doing them all because I got bored. :P

They were optional bosses that just added more gameplay and lore to the the overall package. Plus the build up to the last fight is what makes the whole thing special since the last one takes all your skill if you are playing it on anything higher then normal.
 

tzare

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,145
Catalunya
For me, God of War is a complicated example of revisiting frustrating tropes/cliches that absolutely do annoy me, but yet they do so in interesting ways:

Faye - fridged mother, but also a chessmaster to the events of the game, and a complete badass. The finale reveal also adds a dash of moral ambiguity to her dynamic with her husband and son, which I'm curious to see if they explore in the future.

Freya - urrghhh at everything with her and Baldur in the finale, but a compelling character throughout.

Valkyries - technically damsels in distress, but yet, terrifying badasses. Sigrun put the fear of god into me in a way few bosses have outside of the Soulsborne games.

Neither Freya nor the Valkyries designs were sexualized, either, which was refreshing and important step for the series.

The one thing that annoyed me 1000% more than any of the above was that Kratos didn't tell Atreus about the fact he'd killed his first wife and daughter. As this fact had been so much of Kratos' guilt and motivation from the past games, the fact that this didn't get discussed was downright absurd. It felt like Kratos' guilt over killing his piece of shit corrupted father took priority over his accidental (accidental via hubris?) murder of his innocent wife and daughter. In one of the interviews with the writers after the game's release, they talked about how it was a bit too much to deal with story-wise in one game, and will hopefully be material to revisit in the future. Was it a Game Informer interview? I can understand this perspective from a writing standpoint, as the core of the game was the relationship between father and a son. The unfortunate side effect, though, was that it made Kratos' moment of catharsis with bandages in the finale fall really flat and become almost silly for me, because until Kratos acknowledges the full truth of his past to Atreus, he isn't free at all. I ultimately felt pretty disgusted that Kratos' fear of Atreus finding out he killed his father was prioritized over his murdered wife and child.

Basically, I have complicated feelings on God of War. I love the game, and it's my GOTY. It does great and extremely important things, especially unraveling toxic masculinity and the cycles of abuse. It's just a shame that all of this came at the expense of the female characters. It's a fair enough topic for Abby to bring up.



Any criticism or discussion point on a subject being shut down with a 'well, go make it yourself!' is really, really frustrating - and also hypocritically hilarious, considering the focus of this forum is gaming and entertainment discussion, and only a very small portion of users would actually work in either of these industries. Surely 98-99% of users on Era are armchair developers?

Hey, Abby, spend years learning to be a game dev and/or writer, before you can criticize anything! It'll be fun, I promise! ...enjoy the long hours and terrible pay. As a woman in the industry, it's going to be even more fun! Yay!

The sanctity of a creator and their vision is also pretty fanciful, too, as it's a miracle if a creator's product reaches release with being mostly intact. The romanticizing of just one member of a team (which frequently tends to be directors) glosses over the valuable contributions of team members in all levels that contribute to a final product. Saying that Abby should become a creator is pretty patronizing, too, and it implies that it's an easy thing to do, which it isn't. There are already so many diverse voices in the entertainment industry fighting tooth and nail to get their stories told, but have their stories warped, torn apart, or thrown away entirely. It's brutal.

I respect that God of War was a very personal journey for Barlog, especially him being a father with a young son. I think Barlog's own father may have been involved in elements of the writing process? I love the game, I think it's a beautiful, emotional, and memorable experience. But as a creator, your work does not exist in a void if you choose to show it to the world. It's for consumption, and that comes with both good and bad. God of War did many incredible things, and in the process, also made some missteps on the way. And that's okay, as long as they keep learning. The team at SSM had already made positive steps from their previous games. I can't wait to see what they do next.
Don't get me wrong, criticism is welcome. But sometimes, it gets ridiculous in my opinion and just makes no sense. Nitpicking to the limit makes no sense to me, and makes the discussion, which is, per se, fun and provides other points of view you may not thought, toxic.
There's a quote from Jules Renard iirc that says : Look for the ridiculous in everything and you will find it.

this is fits here. However it's probably me, old gamer . Btw, if a creator can have his vision scrutinized and criticised, the same should be allowed for 'journalists' or others opinions, which is what i am doing with this person's , no more no less.
 

345

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,384
"problematic" is such a lazy, empty word, and no-one's doing themselves any favours by using it. if you think there's a problem, say what it is.

personally yeah i think GoW 2018 treats women entirely as an afterthought, which is pretty much in keeping with the vibe it's going for. i don't think it's obliged to do anything it doesn't do, but it is a bit of a turnoff for me personally. i broadly liked the game and its themes, and i hope the next game is a lot more imaginative.
 

Popetita

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,957
TX|PR
What does this even mean? I'd say it being lazy, thoughtless and overused is enough to kill it off alone, unless it does a genuinely good job subverting it.
Well if it happens naturally and developers stop using the trope in their games, as they have to an extent, then cool, but calling for something to killed off in this way is dangerous. What's the next trope that is not acceptable?

Hell have someone make a really awesome Mansel in Distress game to balance it out. That would be a lot better than angrily calling for the end of a trope that harmed no one.

Honestly, the Mario saving Peach thing is probably better off dead. It's already been established that Peach can more than take care of herself in so many games that it's just ridiculous at this point.
Sure and if it has developed towards that throughout the years then cool, but calling for a trope to be killed off or never be used again in a game is very stupid IMO.
 

ghostcrew

The Shrouded Ghost
Administrator
Oct 27, 2017
30,362
Well if it happens naturally and developers stop using the trope in their games, as they have to an extent, then cool, but calling for something to killed off in this way is dangerous. What's the next trope that is not acceptable?

Hell have someone make a really awesome Mansel in Distress game to balance it out. That would be a lot better than angrily calling for the end of a trope that harmed no one.

Sure and if it has developed towards that throughout the years then cool, but calling for a trope to be killed off or never be used again in a game is very stupid IMO.

This is wildly disingenuous. Nobody's 'angrily' calling for it to be 'killed off'. There is a discussion and part of that discussion is that the trope is lazy and Mario can do better.

Don't paint critical discussion as outrage or dangerous thinking. There seems to be one angry person in here and it's not the people suggesting that damsel in distress is kinda lame.
 
Sep 12, 2018
19,846
Well if it happens naturally and developers stop using the trope in their games, as they have to an extent, then cool, but calling for something to killed off in this way is dangerous. What's the next trope that is not acceptable?

Hell have someone make a really awesome Mansel in Distress game to balance it out. That would be a lot better than angrily calling for the end of a trope that harmed no one.
Nobody has the power to actually kill it off though, just take it as shorthand for "we're tired of this trope, it's boring".
 

Finale Fireworker

Love each other or die trying.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,711
United States
Well if it happens naturally and developers stop using the trope in their games, as they have to an extent, then cool, but calling for something to killed off in this way is dangerous. What's the next trope that is not acceptable?

Hell have someone make a really awesome Mansel in Distress game to balance it out. That would be a lot better than angrily calling for the end of a trope that harmed no one.
Sure and if it has developed towards that throughout the years then cool, but calling for a trope to be killed off or never be used again in a game is very stupid IMO.

Your framing of this discussion is inflammatory and inaccurate.

The modern effort to move away from these tropes began in 1970s. It has been a slow and arduous attempt to cast women in roles that are less regressive and less limiting because helpless distress characters are not appealing to women and reinforce myths about their gender. The refutal of the damsel is essentially the foundation for all modern literary feminist theory. This slow, natural, reduction of sexist tropes that you describe has already been happening for half a century. A generation of artists, consumers, and critics have already litigated the effects and analyzed the reliance on this trope for fifty years.

There is no sudden demand that tropes like the damsel in distress be eradicated from all of literature. It is a request that has been made repeatedly, regularly, and consistently for longer than we have been alive to reduce reliance on these tropes. It is part of a call to portray women with more depth, strength, and agency that predates the existence of video games.

In a world where women were cast and characterized with the same diversity and versatility as men, we would not be having this conversation at all. But they are not. Nobody has this conversation about tropes like the "wise old man" or "big dumb henchman" because men are depicted in multitudes. There is no shortage of diversity in the way male characters are envisioned, developed, and consumed. Women do not have this luxury. Men interested in stories about women don't have this luxury. The reason people ask for the reduction of tropes in how women are portrayed in media is because for hundreds of years people haven't written much else.

So I suggest you abandon this slippery-slope fear mongering of "oh no, what's next?" because it's not applicable here at all. What people want, and have always wanted, is for writers not to rely on tropes that treat women like interchangeable story tools instead of actual characters. Someday, if representation of women in media has massively improved in variety, this conversation will end. Until then, people will still find these tropes unappealing and request that creators make a better effort to move away from them.

This is not dangerous. This is progress.


And I'll say again that I don't think the way the female characters are portrayed in God of War is a "problem." I think the characterizations are weak and their utility is low. There is basic and obvious room for improvement. The team that created this game are obviously extremely talented and capable of creating characters with tremendous depth and nuance. I hope, in the next game, more of them are women. I'm looking forward to it.
 

Popetita

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This is wildly disingenuous. Nobody's 'angrily' calling for it to be 'killed off'. There is a discussion and part of that discussion is that the trope is lazy and Mario can do better.

Don't paint critical discussion as outrage or dangerous thinking. There seems to be one angry person in here and it's not the people suggesting that damsel in distress is kinda lame.

Actually if you read the post I initially replied to they did:
Actually kinda yes?
There's no reason for games to continue resorting to the damsel in distress cliché. It's an incredibly common sexist stereotype that needs to die out.

That is outrage. That is not critical or anything. That is pure outrage asking for something to be killed off because they don't think it fits with what they like.

I am only angry at the suggestion of radical stuff like that. It is ok to have a conversation. It is ok to let a trope or genre die out, as it has been, because it is not as popular anymore. Mario has been doing better for at least a decade now.

What is not right IMO is to outright call for it to be killed off because that could and would have negative consequences.

If you followed my original post I only used Mario because it was the game used in the example and I disagreed for the reasons stated above since I see the as dangerous precedent to do other shady stuff. I am only responding to the person that is saying Damsel in Distrees needs to die.

Nobody has the power to actually kill it off though, just take it as shorthand for "we're tired of this trope, it's boring".

I understand this and thank god, but I only replied to the poster that made the suggestion that the trope need to die off. It will completely die off in no one cares about it, not because someone wants to force it. That was my point.


Your framing of this discussion is inflammatory and inaccurate.

The modern effort to move away from these tropes began in 1970s. It has been a slow and arduous attempt to cast women in roles that are less regressive and less limiting because helpless distress characters are not appealing to women and reinforce myths about their gender. The refutal of the damsel is essentially the foundation for all modern literary feminist theory. This slow, natural, reduction of sexist tropes that you describe has already been happening for half a century. A generation of artists, consumers, and critics have already litigated the effects and analyzed the reliance on this trope for fifty years.

There is no sudden demand that tropes like the damsel in distress be eradicated from all of literature. It is a request that has been made repeatedly, regularly, and consistently for longer than we have been alive to reduce reliance on these tropes. It is part of a call to portray women with more depth, strength, and agency that predates the existence of video games.

In a world where women were cast and characterized with the same diversity and versatility as men, we would not be having this conversation at all. But they are not. Nobody has this conversation about tropes like the "wise old man" or "big dumb henchman" because men are depicted in multitudes. There is no shortage of diversity in the way male characters are envisioned, developed, and consumed. Women do not have this luxury. Men interested in stories about women don't have this luxury. The reason people ask for the reduction of tropes in how women are portrayed in media is because for hundreds of years people haven't written much else.

So I suggest you abandon this slippery-slope fear mongering of "oh no, what's next?" because it's not applicable here at all. What people want, and have always wanted, is for writers not to rely on tropes that treat women like interchangeable story tools instead of actual characters. Someday, if representation of women in media has massively improved in variety, this conversation will end. Until then, people will still find these tropes unappealing and request that creators make a better effort to move away from them.

This is not dangerous. This is progress.


And I'll say again that I don't think the way the female characters are portrayed in God of War is a "problem." I think the characterizations are weak and their utility is low. There is basic and obvious room for improvement. The team that created this game are obviously extremely talented and capable of creating characters with tremendous depth and nuance. I hope, in the next game, more of them are women. I'm looking forward to it.

I am not, I am responding to ONE post that seemed to propose a radical idea I disagree with and some people have misunderstood and jumped on it as if I was making a blanket statement.

I quoted the original post that I replied to in case it is still confusing. You are making a lot of big assumptions of what I think because of a confusion of my post.

Forcing progress is what I called out and could be dangerous. That is not what I or you are talking against here.
 

Deleted member 888

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14,361
Fighting the Valkyries were awesome, they were hard as shit.

In Norse mythology, a valkyrie (from Old Norse valkyrja "chooser of the slain") is one of a host of female figures who decide who will die in battle.

So with being factual around this fiction, what the hell else is the game supposed to do with Norse mythology? Just leave out all the female enemies and Gods because our 2018/2019 sensibilities can't handle them! If only we could talk to Kratos and the other Gods about Universal Basic Income we could end this all peacefully and instead be a farming simulator!

It's almost as if, if you are going to base your game around Greek or Norse Gods, you get all the trimmings along with it one expects from those already fleshed out worlds.

But it's just a videogame, they could have put space aliens in it if they wanted! Yeah sure, but some of us enjoy worlds actually having the factual fiction going on because a lot of it is fucking awesome around Gods and beasts/enemies. I play GoW to be a part of that world because there is soo much lore and so many Gods/creatures to draw from.
 
Sep 12, 2018
19,846
I understand this and thank god, but I only replied to the poster that made the suggestion that the trope need to die off. It will completely die off in no one cares about it, not because someone wants to force it. That was my point.
But the thing is I think the only reason it's started to die off as of late is because there's been a lot of criticism around it with more devs realizing it's a completely lazy and somewhat regressive plot choice. I think for years it was one of those things that wasn't even thought about so it just replicated itself over countless games.
 

Popetita

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But the thing is I think the only reason it's started to die off as of late is because there's been a lot of criticism around it with more devs realizing it's a completely lazy and somewhat regressive plot choice. I think for years it was one of those things that wasn't even thought about so it just replicated itself over countless games.
Then that is a good and natural progression of things that allows for the devs to make another Damsel in distress Mario game if they choose and to do something different if they don't. That is perfectly ok with me.

Hey I'd love for someone to make a Mansel in distress game to throw the trope on it's head and have fun with it.

What I was not ok with was that one poster I replied to saying it should die off as I took it as it needs to be killed off and that is not right as it could lead to worse things down the road.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
What people want, and have always wanted, is for writers not to rely on tropes that treat women like interchangeable story tools instead of actual characters. Someday, if representation of women in media has massively improved in variety, this conversation will end. Until then, people will still find these tropes unappealing and request that creators make a better effort to move away from them.
This is such a good post.
I honestly think that most can agree on what you say though but maybe some just mistakes the criticism for critic on the whole game and therefore get unusually defensive? For me it's still one of the best games of the generation even if I definitely think they could've done something more interesting with the valkyrias. Hopefully the devs read what's being said here so the next game will be even better.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
Fighting the Valkyries were awesome, they were hard as shit.



So with being factual around this fiction, what the hell else is the game supposed to do with Norse mythology? Just leave out all the female enemies and Gods because our 2018/2019 sensibilities can't handle them! If only we could talk to Kratos and the other Gods about Universal Basic Income we could end this all peacefully and instead be a farming simulator!

It's almost as if, if you are going to base your game around Greek or Norse Gods, you get all the trimmings along with it one expects from those already fleshed out worlds.

But it's just a videogame, they could have put space aliens in it if they wanted! Yeah sure, but some of us enjoy worlds actually having the factual fiction going on because a lot of it is fucking awesome around Gods and beasts/enemies. I play GoW to be a part of that world because there is soo much lore and so many Gods/creatures to draw from.
They shouldn't remove valkyrias, they could just let them show their powers in a more meaningful way than in an optional boss fight where Kratos beats them to save them from corruption.
As for the factual fiction, Kratos was nowhere to be seen in the norse mythology and certainly wasn't the one who killed Baldur. They've already altered this universe a lot. They can do whatever they want. We'll probably see Kratos fight or kill Thor in the next game and Odin in the third. Factual? Not so much lol but it'll be fun to play and it's nothing wrong with that, can't wait for the Thor fights! :)
 

Finale Fireworker

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Oct 25, 2017
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This is such a good post.
I honestly think that most can agree on what you say though but maybe some just mistakes the criticism for critic on the whole game and therefore get unusually defensive? For me it's still one of the best games of the generation even if I definitely think they could've done something more interesting with the valkyrias. Hopefully the devs read what's being said here so the next game will be even better.

Like I said earlier in this thread, GOW 2018 is one of the most personally important video games I've ever played. It was a pivotal artistic experience for me. There are few video games I can say mean as much to me as God of War 2018.

But the game has shortcomings that are valuable to discuss. Loving something is the only reason you need to also be conscious of its faults.You shouldn't just embrace the great things about the thing you love. To truly love it is to own it all, I feel.

Recognizing how something you love could be even better is what keeps art and entertainment growing and pushing its own boundaries. To accept anything as just good enough is to sell the future short on how much better things can be. For me, it's female characters are the only blemish on the otherwise tremendous success of the story.

God of War is my game of the generation, and maybe my favorite game ever, but I will never make excuses for what it could have done better.

I do think you're right that sometimes people are defending a big picture instead of actually discussing the details. I am sure there are definitely lots of people who think it's a waste of time to have this discussion about a game like God of War. For all the things it does well and everything it accomplishes, why knock it for this? Aren't there games with worse problems that it's more worthwhile to discuss? But nothing should be immune from review. I think that because GOW is as great as it is is exactly why it's worth having this discussion.

It deserves it.
 

JCHandsom

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Nov 3, 2017
4,218
You are displaying a fundamental misunderstanding of Freya's character arc and how she reinforces the themes of the narrative. She's not 'reduced to a vengeful villain stereotype', she is a mother grieving the loss of her child, the child she would do anything to protect, the child she loved more than anything else in the world, the child she loved so much that in her desire to protect him, she caused him immense pain and suffering. Which compares directly to Kratos's own actions, in which he lies to Atreus about who he is in order to protect Atreus, even though that lie does more harm to Atreus than the truth.

Freya's flaws are what make her human. The game shows that she is incredibly intelligent, capable, kind and generous. She saves the boar, she saves Atreus, she provides guidance and protection to Kratos and Atreus on their journey because she sees herself and her relationship with her own son in them. However, at the end of the day Balder is her priority, and she was willing to do anything to grant him peace. She clearly feels guilt that her decision to make him invulnerable has caused him such pain and suffering. Kratos and Atreus prevent her from, in her mind, making that mistake right, and by killing Balder prevent her from ever making it right, prevent her from ever having the relationship with her son she so desperately wanted.

Well said
 

nib95

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This thread reminds me of a spot on Waypoint article that came out shortly after the games release:

In 'God of War,' Moms Come Last
In a game very much about fathers and sons, the role of a mother is to be invisible or toxic.

Faye may be dead, but she was a decent, caring and noble mother and person, who's positive impact is still felt long after death. Even Freya was kind and decent, but just had a misplaced sense of love and protectionism for her son. The same things cannot be said for Kratos, or any of the fathers that were portrayed in God of War, or ever have been. None of them are kind or decent, they're all maniacal and ruthless. In other words, the mothers are still portrayed in a far less toxic manner than all of the fathers, be they Kratos, Odin, Zeuss or whomever else. In essence, parents in these mythos generally suck, but the fathers are usually far worse.
 
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labx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,326
Medellín, Colombia
And I'll say again that I don't think the way the female characters are portrayed in God of War is a "problem." I think the characterizations are weak and their utility is low. There is basic and obvious room for improvement. The team that created this game are obviously extremely talented and capable of creating characters with tremendous depth and nuance. I hope, in the next game, more of them are women. I'm looking forward to it.

This summarize my thoughts and feelings toward this conversation. Not a problem, but need improvement. The one thing that keep me going in the game was the wish of knowing the mother. Unfortunately, nothing happened and I don't think that we will know her beyond her actions, plots and machinations with Tyr. And that's a shame. Norse mythology isn't that rich in female representation I hope they make a good use of the goddesses.
 

ghostcrew

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Oct 27, 2017
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Faye may be dead, but she was a decent, caring and noble mother and person, who's positive impact is still felt long after death.

She's still dead for the entire game though isn't she? Kratos can be more toxic, sure. But he also gets to be the big strong guy who's on the box art and gets to stomp on all the enemies heads and have character growth and relationships with Atreus. It's nice that Faye can be caring and noble but... she's still a dead person for the entirety of the game. She is essentially invisible.
 

nib95

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She's still dead for the entire game though isn't she? Kratos can be more toxic, sure. But he also gets to be the big strong guy who's on the box art and gets to stomp on all the enemies heads and have character growth and relationships with Atreus. It's nice that Faye can be caring and noble but... she's still a dead person for the entirety of the game. She is essentially invisible.

She's invisible in terms of physicality, but I wouldn't say she was invisible in terms of narrative development or presence. Thor and Odin are not in the game either, but similar to Faye, they are prominent parts of the narrative and routinely referenced. Faye especially, is an integral part of the story, as is Freya.

Regarding Kratos being the focus, ultimately he is the main protagonist of the game, and fundamentally the game is about Kratos overcoming his own demons, and his relationship with his son. Were Faye to be alive or a more prominent part of the story, the entire focus and point of the narrative would be different. The complaint essentially boils down to asking why the story isn't something else entirely, and the answer is that it wasn't the story the creators wanted to tell. That said, presumably Faye will be a bigger part of the sequel, as will Thor and Odin.
 

Deleted member 888

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They shouldn't remove valkyrias, they could just let them show their powers in a more meaningful way than in an optional boss fight where Kratos beats them to save them from corruption.
As for the factual fiction, Kratos was nowhere to be seen in the norse mythology and certainly wasn't the one who killed Baldur. They've already altered this universe a lot. They can do whatever they want. We'll probably see Kratos fight or kill Thor in the next game and Odin in the third. Factual? Not so much lol but it'll be fun to play and it's nothing wrong with that, can't wait for the Thor fights! :)

Yeah, they obviously alter things, but some of the hot takes around these kinds of debates end up coming close to the removal of content for moral standards of real life. We already saw it with TLoU 2 because ND is depicting relevant in-world violence against women. In a horror game, which had the first entry with plenty of gore.

I understand socialization has made anyone with their marbles intact feel uncomfortable seeing violence depicted against women, whereas violence depicted against men might not register in the same way. You've been shooting and punching male bad guys since you were 8. The Trevor torture scene in GTA5 is probably the closest thing in recent times to get a little drama, but it's GTA which attracts Blog headlines anyway and tens of millions of people played that scene to no moral panic or medical help/recovery being needed. 99.9% of people playing games know a game isn't real life. You don't curb stomp a harpy in GoW then go outside and viciously attack another person.

There are grounded reasons for being uncomfortable around avatars that are female, or resemble female (such as a harpy), but if you want more diversity in games and characters that aren't just safe tropes you've got to give a little. You can't just close up shop behind the barrier of this content is offensive/morally distasteful the second gender identity comes into the mix. Otherwise enjoy just seeing bald space marines for the next 10 generations.

The game is called God of War, nearly everything is resolved with conflict. By everything in the world, all Gods and minions alike. That's always been part of lore around Greek Gods. Conflict. Violence. Sex. Lust. All the sins of life. Yes, Kratos has been the king of killing for a long time, but what is essentially GoW 4 tried to lessen some of the mindless killings and introduce more ND like storytelling. It was a big departure from the usual formula and as a first attempt, I think the critical acclaim shows it was a damn good effort. And I know there is a raging debate topic on here already about calling this GoW 4, but make no mistakes, it was a sequel to GoW 3. It is not a restart from ground zero.

If anyone wants to play Animal Crossing, play Animal Crossing. Don't force yourself to play God of War just because of the MC score. Same goes for TLoU 2 which has already had a sizeable number of comments on here the violence depicted in the trailers is just too much. Your opinion isn't invalid, but it cannot be thrust onto anyone else and their moral standings questioned. Some people like gory horror movies, some people like romcoms. You do you, but each artist behind each piece of content is clearly aiming to do two different things.

There's always going to be a baseline of violence and conflict in GoW and that will be factually surrounded by what the minions, enemies and Gods were like in the greek, roman, norse, etc mythology. If they were violent themselves or warriors themselves, they're probably going to be that way in God of War. The series is working heavily based on the fiction and storytelling of other people/times. While there is room for change/playing around within those boundaries, expect a grounding of keeping to source material.
 
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Dragoon

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
11,231
Don't know tbh, I just thought they were odd additions to an otherwise amazing game, I never bothered fighting them all.
However, I certainly wouldn't have liked it if "The Stranger" was a woman and the fights were the same. :s
I too, absolutely loathe it when developers offer optional content while ensuring the main part of the game is tightly paced. It's the absolute worst.
 

nib95

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I too, absolutely loathe it when developers offer optional content while ensuring the main part of the game is tightly paced. It's the absolute worst.

Same. Who cares about incredibly fun and well designed optional content and bosses anyway?


/s, just in case anyone didn't realise. You never can tell these days.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,955
Sure, Faye might be a good character representation for women at her core... but she is not actually present in the game. If we lived in a world where equal representation existed, this wouldn't be an issue.

And this isn't just about women, either.

So there's nothing wrong with calling for more, better, actually present characters. GoW did a lot of things right, it could do more right. And good writers can make this work without it being forced.

Non one is saying "every game needs to be this", people are saying "more games need to be this" and "GoW was much better than most but there is still lots of room".

She's still dead for the entire game though isn't she? Kratos can be more toxic, sure. But he also gets to be the big strong guy who's on the box art and gets to stomp on all the enemies heads and have character growth and relationships with Atreus. It's nice that Faye can be caring and noble but... she's still a dead person for the entirety of the game. She is essentially invisible.

This is the truth of it.
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 25, 2017
31,847
Kratos was nowhere to be seen in the norse mythology and certainly wasn't the one who killed Baldur. They've already altered this universe a lot. They can do whatever they want.

Not as much as you might think. In the mythology Loki used mistletoe and manipulated another god into killing Baldur.

he's probably gonna end up fighting full Valkyrie Freya at least once and then she'll let it rest in favor of them teaming up to kill Odin and because he un-cursed the other valkyries.

This thread reminds me of a spot on Waypoint article that came out shortly after the games release:

In 'God of War,' Moms Come Last
In a game very much about fathers and sons, the role of a mother is to be invisible or toxic.

It is kinda weird. Faye is unseen but is a positive influence overall, while Freya is more active but a negative influence in the end

Then you have the opposite for the game's fathers. Mimir talks endlessly about all the cruel shit Odin and Thor have done, and Thor even beats his own son to near death, but neither are really ever present in the plot aside from a cameo. Even that other dad who was a ghost was a shit dad and that quest pretty much exists to give Kratos shit for HIS terrible dad. Kratos' story on the other hand revolves around him attempting to minimize his negative influence on the world and leave it better than he found it by teaching life lessons to Atreus.

The last line of that article is also kinda weird considering the idea that Odin and Thor are probably gonna get got and Kratos is DEFINITELY gonna get got.
 
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Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
Yeah, they obviously alter things, but some of the hot takes around these kinds of debates end up coming close to the removal of content for moral standards of real life. We already saw it with TLoU 2 because ND is depicting relevant in-world violence against women. In a horror game, which had the first entry with plenty of gore.

I understand socialization has made anyone with their marbles intact feel uncomfortable seeing violence depicted against women, whereas violence depicted against men might not register in the same way. You've been shooting and punching male bad guys since you were 8. The Trevor torture scene in GTA5 is probably the closest thing in recent times to get a little drama, but it's GTA which attracts Blog headlines anyway and tens of millions of people played that scene to no moral panic or medical help/recovery being needed. 99.9% of people playing games know a game isn't real life. You don't curb stomp a harpy in GoW then go outside and viciously attack another person.

There are grounded reasons for that, but if you want more diversity in games and characters that aren't just safe tropes you've got to give a little.

The game is called God of War, nearly everything is resolved with conflict. By everything in the world, all Gods and minions alike. That's always been part of lore around Greek Gods. Conflict. Violence. Sex. Lust. All the sins of life. Yes, Kratos has been the king of killing for a long time, but what is essentially GoW 4 tried to lessen some of the mindless killings and introduce more ND like storytelling.
Yeah I know what you mean, I try to avoid most hot topics around here nowadays, it's often like a wasp nest :s

I agree on the last bit anyway, the serie is most definitely progressing. It could do better though but there are hopefully many more games in the works. Even just during this game Kratos evolved a lot too, being a father myself I hated how roughly he treated Atreus at first but by the end he showed glimpses of a softer side. So things can absolutely change.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
Not as much as you might think. In the mythology Loki used mistletoe and manipulated another god into killing Baldur.
"He approached the blind god Hodr and said, "You must feel quite left out, having to sit back here away from the merriment, not being given a chance to show Baldur the honor of proving his invincibility." The blind god concurred. "Here," said Loki, handing him the shaft of mistletoe. "I will point your hand in the direction where Baldur stands, and you throw this branch at him." So Hod threw the mistletoe. It pierced the god straight through, and he fell down dead on the spot. "

That's... not quite what happens in GoW I'd say. And what about Baldur's appearance, you don't think they're straying a bit off the "factual fiction" path?
I mean I don't have any problems with that, I just commented on the factual fiction comment when used as a defense that nothing could be changed.
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,847
"He approached the blind god Hodr and said, "You must feel quite left out, having to sit back here away from the merriment, not being given a chance to show Baldur the honor of proving his invincibility." The blind god concurred. "Here," said Loki, handing him the shaft of mistletoe. "I will point your hand in the direction where Baldur stands, and you throw this branch at him." So Hod threw the mistletoe. It pierced the god straight through, and he fell down dead on the spot. "

That's... not quite what happens in GoW I'd say. And what about Baldur's appearance, you don't think they're straying a bit off the "factual fiction" path?
I mean I don't have any problems with that, I just commented on the factual fiction comment when used as a defense that nothing could be changed.

GoW's never been about 1 to 1 following the mythology, just in the most vague of terms. Hercules' labors still happen in GoW, for example, but they're downplayed and at least a few are handed over to Kratos.

Loki still ends up causing Baldur's death with the help of another god