Is God of War 2018's treatment towards women problematic? (Spoilers)

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

She's the driving force because she's dead which is a very well worn trope called "fridging." It's not inherently bad but that it's used at all is why it's worth discussing.

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She is the main and overwhelming driving force in many other, somewhat bizarre, ways.

-She tricks Kratos into cutting down the magical trees protecting their home, allowing Baldur and various enemies to attack Kratos to spur him to leave.
-She tricks Kratos into heading to the realm of the giants to see the prophecy and truth for some reason.
-She doesn't tell Atreus he is a god for some reason

These acts are often very weird but she does them.

 

[Megatron]

Did you not get that she'd basically already gone through the game with her ability to see into the future? She sets everything in motion, knowing directly where it would lead to. Hell, I wouldn't be shocked if her own death was also planned by her to have the most impact to get the ball rolling, so to speak(do we even find out how she died before the game started?).


Before we've even started controlling Kratos, she:

1) Used her own death as the trigger for the outside world invading to light a fire under Kratos and put him at odds with their gods

2) Told Kratos where she wants her ashes to be brought to, both at first leading her right into Mimir who further puts him at odds against the gods, and then to where the real goal was, getting Atreus to see all that she did/to understand what had to happen going forward

3) either placed the markers all along where they have to travel to go where she wants them to(either before the game starts or somehow during the game and watching over them)


For god's sakes, she may as well be holding the controller(not the player) and guiding Kratos's every actions. :p

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What you're saying makes it worse, not better. You think she killed herself so the male characters could have a journey?

They basically created this magic dead female character who you don't have to see or listen to, but she guides and protects the male characters from the grave. It's uncomfortably close to the 'magical negro stereotype' we see in fiction all the time. That's not agency or character development. That's just a plot device to serve the male characters.

 

[Rendering...]

No, GoW is not problematic.

Not a single well developed female character is sacrificed for drama. Freya is a compelling, sympathetic, highly capable character who has one of the most significant supporting roles in the game.

Atreus's mom has a strong presence throughout GoW even if she's never shown alive. Developing her through the dialog of her son and husband is a perfectly valid approach in the kind of story the game is telling. The whole point of their journey is to honor her. That's the opposite of exploitative. She doesn't have to be seen for this to work, unless you want to suggest that unseen female characters should never provide motivation for male characters in stories, no matter what.

Depictions of violence against women are not always sexist. The Valkyries are badass warriors who can fight toe to toe with Kratos. The game doesn't relish their suffering. He treats them like any other dangerous foe.

Contrast GoW with previous games in the series, which use women as sex props and eye candy, and fridges Kratos's first wife without bothering to develop her at all.

 

[Spedfrom]

What you're saying makes it worse, not better. You think she killed herself so the male characters could have a journey?

They basically created this magic dead female character who you don't have to see or listen to, but she guides and protects the male characters from the grave. It's uncomfortably close to the 'magical negro stereotype' we see in fiction all the time. That's not agency or character development. That's just a plot device to serve the male characters.

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Fucking hell are you reaching. Maybe look to Cory's own relationship with his wife to see how much he respects women. I'm sick of this thread and of your cherry-picking to suit your goal.

 

[Protome]

I'm aware it's a trope, but I found its execution to be very well handled, particularly as a narrative vehicle to provide a sense of - or hope for - redemption for Kratos and his problematic past.

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I agree, but that doesn't mean it's reaching for others to disagree.

I feel her wish was the motivation, not her actual death. Still, I have no issues with how women were treated in GOW, but I do think they'll be better off with more proper representation later on.

Also, isn't fridging based on vengeance? Anyway, GOW is a major improvement compared to how they treated women before, and I feel Cory is aware of this and will try to keep improving. Guess we'll see later on.

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Because it's not her dying that acts like the main factor for the trip, it's following her last wish she let them know before dying.

EDIT: What Ricky_R said above.

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The scattering is the destination, the journey and bonding with his son is the motivation and the driving force behind his actions.

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Her dying wishes vs her death itself feels like a slightly arbitrary distinction to make, personally. Burn I do agree the story is far deeper than just baseline "we fridged a character that's all the MC's motivation gogogo" which is why I don't have a problem with it, even if I still consider it a use of the trope. It's actually a good example of using it well, by not leaning on it much.

The "fridging is about vengeance" isn't accurate but it is the most common and lazy use of the trope, which is another point as to why GoW handles it so well by not falling into that trap.

 

[Omnistalgic]

Also what literally technice isn't a trope at this point? We've been writing complex stories for 7000 years lol.

At the end of the day, Cory had a son and it's simply reflected in the game. Room for improvement but man, such a weird game to rag on. And I'm more talking about those harah reviews than anything the OP said. Really hard to relate to their stance.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

What you're saying makes it worse, not better. You think she killed herself so the male characters could have a journey?

They basically created this magic dead female character who you don't have to see or listen to, but she guides and protects the male characters from the grave. It's uncomfortably close to the 'magical negro stereotype' we see in fiction all the time. That's not agency or character development. That's just a plot device to serve the male characters.

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I don't think that's a very good comparison...

Faye at her worst is a plot device that acts bizarrely to move the plot forward in a way that the developers want. I don't think this is similar to Magical Negro stereotypes... That would be found in Detroit actually.

 

[Kodros]

She's the driving force because she's dead which is a very well worn trope called "fridging." It's not inherently bad but that it's used at all is why it's worth discussing.

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I don't agree with this. If she was living and Kratos promised to take his kid to the top of the mountain to deliver her a pizza, not much would have changed. His driving force is bringing something from point A to point B with a kid that he barely knew and dealing with that new dynamic.

 

[nib95]

I'm tired of seeing this 'nobody is represented in a good way' stuff. Kratos. atreus and the dwarves are all represented well. They all happen to be male. Kratos and Atreus have hardships that they struggle through but they over come them and grow. That doesn't happen to any of the women in the game. Hell, even the dwarves have a story arc where they see growth by the end of the game. Faye is dead the whole game, the Valkyrie are one note characters who only exist for you to fight/kill/brutalize. Freya is reduced from a complex interesting character to a vengeful villain stereotype swearing revenge on the hero because the most important man in her life was killed, unable to see her son for what he is.

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To me it feels like you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the story and the character or Freya. You seem to believe a character automatically lacks growth or value just because they're angry about the murder of their child or blinded by love or protectionism, as if that doesn't happen all the time in real life. The fact that she is as hurt and vengeful about the murder of her son as she is, imo makes her more complex, not less. This is a person who'd already damned her son to immunity and lack of all sensation (inadvertently driving him mad) just to protect him, so the writing was already on the wall about how much she valued his safety and life above all else, in a misplaced sense of love or care.

After Freya offers her life in order to bring Baldr peace, Kratos himself actually says he would have done the exact same thing for Atreus, so by virtue of you thinking Freya is presented in poor light, you must also assume the same for Kratos too, but for whatever reason, you don't.

Also, Kratos and Atreus are not presented in a good way if that is your standard. They are still ultimately selfish and violent, and Kratos will do anything he can to survive or protect his son, even if that means killing in mass or returning to his old ways. I mean, that's a key component of Kratos's story arch, that he cannot hide from his past and must be the monster he is in order to selfishly protect his son at all costs (not too dissimilar to Freya).

As per an earlier post, Freya's turn from strong ally to vengeful foe was bitter irony and touched on a deeper narrative note. Kratos himself had done so much heinous shit to protect his own son, and yet he failed to understand what lengths Freya was willing to go to protect or give peace to her own.

Perhaps Kratos killed Baldr to help her, or perhaps he killed him with selfish intent, projecting his own desire to break the cycle of sons and daughters killing their fathers or mother's (which he implies), whilst simultaneously saving an ally that he likely thought might still be useful to him (Freya did after all help him throughout his journey). Either way, he had no right to make that decision.

Ultimately Kratos underestimated Freyas love for Baldr, and the lengths a parent would go for their family or children, and that is the great irony, since now Freya will be driven by a similar revenge to the kind that drove Kratos himself when Ares killed his own family back in Greece.

 

[erlim]

I think it's commendable that Santa Monica tried to mature the character of Kratos from the PS2 era, but in the end he was created to embody outdated aspirational characteristics and he will never be able to transcend all the problematic issues that arise with him. The following years will not look kindly back on 2018 GOW.

 

[Ricky_R]

To be honest, SSM did pretty well with Faye in my book since when the game ended, I was completely intrigued by her and the end revelations of her origin and possible intents. She was all I could think about when I finished the journey and I felt compelled to know more about her mystery.

I would love DLC focused on her, but since that won't happen I'll settle if they delve into her past a bit in the next game.

 

[Manu]

She is the main and overwhelming driving force in many other, somewhat bizarre, ways.

-She tricks Kratos into cutting down the magical trees protecting their home, allowing Baldur and various enemies to attack Kratos to spur him to leave.
-She tricks Kratos into heading to the realm of the giants to see the prophecy and truth for some reason.
-She doesn't tell Atreus he is a god for some reason

These acts are often very weird but she does them.

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I'm sure this will pay off in the future.

Also, it's possible that she knew the only way Kratos and Atreus would make the trip was due to personal reasons of love and not for the actual reasons she wanted them to. I'm sure Kratos especially would have been like "oh hell no" after being told he'd be angering the gods and possibly starting another apocalyptic scenario on purpose.

Her dying wishes vs her death itself feels like a slightly arbitrary distinction to make, personally.

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It's not really arbitrary when it's the difference between a cheap, depowering cliché and a well done story that stands out for being different.

I agree with the rest of your post though.

 

[deathsaber]

Other than the fridging of Krato's wife (oldest trope in the book), I don't really find anything else problematic. Freya is given realistic motivations as a mother, IMO and the Valkyries are basically strong women with a curse which could apply to either genre. Don't really see much of a controversy here.

 

[SliceSabre]

The Freya issue is way too complicated because it isn't simply a woman getting man-handle by some dude. The guy she was going to let kill her is her son and she wasn't willing to fight back because she's his god damn mother and she wasn't going to struck down her son and of course she's pissed Kratos killed him because that's her son and she had given him immortality to avoid him dying even if part of the reason she did it was selfish.

I'm ok with it because it was trying to show how deep a parent's love is for their child.

 

[Deleted member 135]

What you're saying makes it worse, not better. You think she killed herself so the male characters could have a journey?

They basically created this magic dead female character who you don't have to see or listen to, but she guides and protects the male characters from the grave. It's uncomfortably close to the 'magical negro stereotype' we see in fiction all the time. That's not agency or character development. That's just a plot device to serve the male characters.

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Alright, now you are getting ridiculous. You are being intentionally obtuse and I don't think you are arguing in good faith here.

 

[Kongroo]

Not at all. They are all their own fleshed out characters with unique motivations and independence.

But it's been 9 months since the game came out so I suppose the hot takes are coming in just on time.

 

[Asriel]

The issue is not whether Faye was brutally killed or not. The simple fact is that despite Faye's power and capabilities as a wife and mother, God of War's writes established she had to die to actually have an impact on the story. That's what people have a problem with.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Faye did a lot in God of War 4.

-Covered the entirety of Norway in white paint
-Married Kratos
-Didn't tell Atreus he was a god, causing Atreus to be very ill
-Caused Kratos to have to do the entire God of War 4 thing.

The problem is that we have a limited idea of what her motivations are and all of this happened off-screen. We'll see in the future if she was a good character or just a plot device I guess.

 

[Equanimity]

As much as GoW is a step forward, I think too their female representation is far from being ideal. There's much more that not showing tits and ass when you create female fictional characters, like GoW is not overly sexist and downright misogynistic at times now, like that's the lowest common denominator, is not a victory or something to be applauded is the bare minimum, from that point forward there's still a lot of job to do

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But I'm not discussing the lowest common denominator, and I don't believe your characterisation applies to the new game.

I'm framing my comment with their current efforts in mind.

 

[freakybj]

I don't understand the criticism about women not being treated well in this game. I thought the story was a good one and it has come a long way from the mini-sex games with Kratos that were in previous God of War games.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

That's fine of course, but it just means the game isn't going to win any awards for the presentation of the mother. Because there practically isn't any.


It's not really meaningful in the discussion of her character whether she had an impact. John Wick's dog had an impact.

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Except that the game is as much about motherhood as it is about fatherhood, it just tells that portion of the narrative through Freya and Balder rather than through Faye being alive. And the way Freya is portrayed is very well done and meaningful.

 

[Asriel]

Faye did a lot in God of War 4.

-Covered the entirety of Norway in white paint
-Married Kratos
-Didn't tell Atreus he was a god, causing Atreus to be very ill
-Caused Kratos to have to do the entire God of War 4 thing.

The problem is that we have a limited idea of what her motivations are and all of this happened off-screen. We'll see in the future if she was a good character or just a plot device I guess.

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Precisely! :-)

I'm hoping she gets more involved in the coming games. She just seems like she has the potential to a remarkable character.

 

[Bunkles]

Freya is reduced from a complex interesting character to a vengeful villain stereotype swearing revenge on the hero because the most important man in her life was killed, unable to see her son for what he is.

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I dunno, it sounds like you have an issue with a woman getting angry. Her motivations, actions and reactions were projected very clearly and I have no idea how you could come to the conclusion that she's now reduced to a one-note villian simply because she got mad.

 

[Rendering...]

I think it's commendable that Santa Monica tried to mature the character of Kratos from the PS2 era, but in the end he was created to embody outdated aspirational characteristics and he will never be able to transcend all the problematic issues that arise with him. The following years will not look kindly back on 2018 GOW.

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Kratos and Atreus's character development as father and son will be seen as a positive and timely rejection of the toxic masculinity that defined the earlier games--all the more so when society has outgrown the obscene trend of demonizing anything and anyone striving for redemption or moral growth by cutting them down at stage one, which is the necessary step of examining and rejecting the ugliness of their past in the clear light of day.

 

[MegaSackman]

I think we need a new topic for today, it's been insteresting but we've been running in circles for a while now.

 

[Deleted member 23893]

Real talk? Anyone finding a ton of fault with the way Freya acts at the end of the game has either A) never been a parent, or B) has never had an otherwise rational family member bend over backwards to justify their child's actions.

There's room to nitpick sure, but the 180 flip from Freya being this even handed, mature character when dealing with Kratos/Atreus earlier in the story, to just going full mama bear is one of the realest things in the game.

 

[JCHandsom]

The whole Dead Mom thing is a bit of a bummer, especially since we find out at the very end that she had a lot going on and had her own mysterious motivations and history, but that we never find out. Freya I found to be a really good character and foil to Kratos, and I found her ending to be a mirror to the old Kratos' revenge narrative of "Imma get revenge on this god for something that, when you take a step back, is really my fault."

 

[Deleted member 11413]

I'm tired of seeing this 'nobody is represented in a good way' stuff. Kratos. atreus and the dwarves are all represented well. They all happen to be male. Kratos and Atreus have hardships that they struggle through but they over come them and grow. That doesn't happen to any of the women in the game. Hell, even the dwarves have a story arc where they see growth by the end of the game. Faye is dead the whole game, the Valkyrie are one note characters who only exist for you to fight/kill/brutalize. Freya is reduced from a complex interesting character to a vengeful villain stereotype swearing revenge on the hero because the most important man in her life was killed, unable to see her son for what he is.

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You are displaying a fundamental misunderstanding of Freya's character arc and how she reinforces the themes of the narrative. She's not 'reduced to a vengeful villain stereotype', she is a mother grieving the loss of her child, the child she would do anything to protect, the child she loved more than anything else in the world, the child she loved so much that in her desire to protect him, she caused him immense pain and suffering. Which compares directly to Kratos's own actions, in which he lies to Atreus about who he is in order to protect Atreus, even though that lie does more harm to Atreus than the truth.

Freya's flaws are what make her human. The game shows that she is incredibly intelligent, capable, kind and generous. She saves the boar, she saves Atreus, she provides guidance and protection to Kratos and Atreus on their journey because she sees herself and her relationship with her own son in them. However, at the end of the day Balder is her priority, and she was willing to do anything to grant him peace. She clearly feels guilt that her decision to make him invulnerable has caused him such pain and suffering. Kratos and Atreus prevent her from, in her mind, making that mistake right, and by killing Balder prevent her from ever making it right, prevent her from ever having the relationship with her son she so desperately wanted.

 

[Playsage]

She is the main and overwhelming driving force in many other, somewhat bizarre, ways.

-She tricks Kratos into cutting down the magical trees protecting their home, allowing Baldur and various enemies to attack Kratos to spur him to leave.
-She tricks Kratos into heading to the realm of the giants to see the prophecy and truth for some reason.
-She doesn't tell Atreus he is a god for some reason

These acts are often very weird but she does them.

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lmao

All of this makes perfect sense already. This just further highlights your "lack of attention"

 

[Sub Boss]

well its a huuuuge improvment for the seriés :P

 

[DevilMayGuy]

Maybe it wasn't perfect, but it seemed like a huge step up for the series. Sure, they fridged Kratos's wife, but her machinations end up being very intricate and she played Kratos like a goddamn fiddle. Freya is a badass with crazy good magic who saves Kratos's ass, but is perhaps a bad mother. The Valkyries are far and away the most powerful, challenging enemies in the game, rivaling the strength of the gods and godlings you fight in the game, so I fail to see how they are much of a negative, either.

Overall, nothing in the game comes close to the offensiveness of the sex minigames and the whole using a woman as a doorstop routine, along with the violent breast stabbing that took place with the naked titty monsters from past games.

 

[Sande]

Except that the game is as much about motherhood as it is about fatherhood, it just tells that portion of the narrative through Freya and Balder rather than through Faye being alive. And the way Freya is portrayed is very well done and meaningful.

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Yeah I think Freya is for the most part a well written character. I meant Faye specifically with "the mother".

 

[Deleted member 5596]

But I'm not discussing the lowest common denominator, and I don't believe your characterisation applies to the new game.

I'm framing my comment with their current efforts in mind.

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The current efforts are basically reduced to "hey women are fully clothed now and are more than sexual objects", which, is yeah, the bare minimum.

 

[AndrewGPK]

They should release a politically correct version. Every time Kratos says "Boy!" I think Atreus should kindly ask him not to assume his/her gender.


In all seriousness, it is a step up for the series IMO compared to the way the series used to treat women. I think though we should consider that the subject matter, Norse and Greek mythology, are probably riddled with sexist things. Just about everyone looks bad or gets killed in this game. The mother is a noble, unifying figure. Freya is a pretty great and complex character. And the Valkyries are the strongest enemies in the game.

The industry as a whole needs more non-white protagonists and female protagonists, but GoW isn't really an example to me of women being treated badly or coming off as lesser figures.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Yeah I think Freya is for the most part a well written character. I meant Faye specifically with "the mother".

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Right, I'm just emphasizing that Faye doesn't have to be alive in order for the game to be about motherhood, because that's Freya's role in the narrative.

I can see how Faye being dead is disappointing, especially since games are often devoid of positive depictions of motherhood (or really any depictions of motherhood). That said, the game is about parenting failures despite the best of intentions and an absentee father suddenly being forced to be in a role he is ill-equipped for, a role he should have been doing all along without tragedy forcing him into it, and Faye being alive does not fit into that narrative.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

The current efforts are basically reduced to "hey women are fully clothed now and are more than sexual objects", which, is yeah, the bare minimum.

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No, this is incredibly inaccurate. Freya is one of the only examples from a AAA game I can think of where motherhood is deeply explored and a mother is depicted with depth and complexity that rivals that of the main character.

 

[WrenchNinja]

You are displaying a fundamental misunderstanding of Freya's character arc and how she reinforces the themes of the narrative. She's not 'reduced to a vengeful villain stereotype', she is a mother grieving the loss of her child, the child she would do anything to protect, the child she loved more than anything else in the world, the child she loved so much that in her desire to protect him, she caused him immense pain and suffering. Which compares directly to Kratos's own actions, in which he lies to Atreus about who he is in order to protect Atreus, even though that lie does more harm to Atreus than the truth.

Freya's flaws are what make her human. The game shows that she is incredibly intelligent, capable, kind and generous. She saves the boar, she saves Atreus, she provides guidance and protection to Kratos and Atreus on their journey because she sees herself and her relationship with her own son in them. However, at the end of the day Balder is her priority, and she was willing to do anything to grant him peace. She clearly feels guilt that her decision to make him invulnerable has caused him such pain and suffering. Kratos and Atreus prevent her from, in her mind, making that mistake right, and by killing Balder prevent her from ever making it right, prevent her from ever having the relationship with her son she so desperately wanted.

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Yeah. It is insane how much people keep misconstruing the whole game. Like the entire game is about parenthood. They bludgeon the theme and the comparisons between different parents and their children over and over again. Zeus and Kratos, Kratos and Atreus, Freya and Baldur, Thor and Magni/Modi, Odin and Baldur/Thor, Faye and Atreus. You have the central comparison being a distant father and an overprotective mother who both want to love their kids but have failed them or continue to fail them.

 

[a Question]

He doesn't kill the Valkyries. He frees them from their prisons. Their natural form is the spirit form.

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I have no problem with that. I just say people are stuck up on the fact that he "kills" they ignore that he frees them.

Plus somebody mentioned its a video game thing set up in norse mythology ofc Kratos options are only to kill.

Also on the argument on there no Female enemies, the witch is there and it can be argued that the fact that females are set up as bosses in the game puts a perspective where they are actually way bigger deal than male enimes who mostly are minions.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

I definitely wouldn't call the game's depictions of women "problematic." But I would call them weak.

God of War's strength is in its study of masculinity and reframing male heroism through a feminist lens. God of War is about toxic masculinity constructs and it explores those themes extremely well. It does this by primarily positioning Kratos and Atreus against or adjacent to other male figures (including each other) so there is a point of reference to examine character traits typically associated with masculinity. A great companion documentary to God of War that explores these themes is The Mask You Live In, which I recommend to anybody who liked the game.

There is nothing wrong about having a story that focuses specifically on men and male relationships, but this game does include and portray women, which means those women are fair game for criticism and analysis. The truth is that as good as God of War is female characters are not a narrative priority and therefore they become storytelling tools that don't receive a lot of opportunity within the story.

There are three major roles for women in the game:
Faye, whose death serves as the inciting incident for the story ("fridged").
Freya, who is a slightly-mobile captive with little agency (damsel trope*, defined by her relationship to male characters). *See here for more on this.
Valkyries, who are all turned evil and held captive (Rescuing women with violence trope, damsel trope).

This much is not disputable. These are literary devices that are tried and true that can be handily applied to all of these characters. It is unfortunate that, since there are so few women in the game, the ones that are present lean so heavily on literary stereotypes. None of these women are particularly "good" female characters, but for relying on the tropes they rely on, they could be worse. Faye is still portrayed to have been a hero and a radical in her own times. Freya's story ends with her being individually motivated and off to reclaim her birthright and she is a strong foil to Kratos himself. The Valkyries are all free and have returned to being the dominant militaristic force in the universe. These are good positions for the women of God of War to be in for our sequel game. But for God of War 2018, women are not a narrative priority, and it shows.

These women rely on tropes and stereotypes that serve as weak female story roles. You could argue that Faye and Freya and the like are still interesting characters, but their role in the story itself is utilitarian and merely ancillary. It is unfortunate, for example, that the Valkyrie all need to be murdered by Kratos so they can all go back to being battle angels and are imprisoned until he gets there. Characters of such power and stature deserve better than to sit and wait for Kratos to come kill them so they can be rescued.

Is God of War 2018 better to women than older God of War games? Absolutely. Could it be much worse? Absolutely. But being better than the old games and having had the potential to be worse is a low bar to meet. This doesn't make the game "problematic," but it leaves a lot to be desired in this department. It's been a prevalent conversation among fans since its release.


God of War 2018 is one of my favorite games. I think it's a tremendous piece of art. My experience with the game was deeply personal and formative and there are few games I have ever played that I can say affected me so profoundly. It is a transformative video game experience. But the game has problems, and there are parts of its story that could be better, and chief among them is how the game portrays women.

I like to think the story is going places and the clearly-planned over-arching narrative has roles in store for both the women we've met and the ones we haven't. I'm fairly confident that the reason we never see Faye's face or what she looks like is because she will appear in some form in later games and her character design is either not complete or is meant to be anticipated. Freya is obviously set up to be a primary antagonist. The Valkyrie all serve Freya as their queen. Plus there are obvious mythological figures like Hela we haven't seen yet.

But until then, God of War 2018 is a game that doesn't have very good female characters and they all rely on tropes to fulfill roles in the narrative. They aren't the worst offenders when it comes to using these tropes and it's still possible to like these characters despite the stereotyping but I don't know why anybody would harp on somebody else for saying they expect more out of female characters in their stories. Hopefully, by the time this story is complete, this isn't something we will look back on as a series failing.

 

[closer]

It depends on how youd stretch problematic. To me, at least, the women in the game were portrayed incredibly meaningfully. I thought the way faye was presented was slightly problematic in the beginning (her death being used as a way to funnel onto the feelibns of two men, and her absence almost being another character), but i kind of changed my mind upon finding that she was a much larger figure than "just' existing as wife/mother to two alive men. And freya i thought was portrayed very well, just that godly talk and threats near the end were hella corny, not really related to what we're discussing tho lol

Id defer to other opinions in the end though, and not claim my experience as emblemic.

 

[Equanimity]

The current efforts are basically reduced to "hey women are fully clothed now and are more than sexual objects", which, is yeah, the bare minimum.

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Yeah, you're arguing in bad faith to suggest a preconceived opinion. I'm not sure how you were able to reduce Faye and Freya to the bare minimum.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

The most obvious anti-women thing in the game is just that it ignores Kratos' prior violence against women to instead focus on Kratos killing his super villain father.

This is obviously done so that they can slowly escalate the severity of his crimes to Atreus without Atreus' love for Kratos looking stupid or ridiculous ("Boy, I killed 8 million people because I caused the end of the world." "I still love you, dad!") but yeah.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Yeah. It is insane how much people keep misconstruing the whole game. Like the entire game is about parenthood. They bludgeon the theme and the comparisons between different parents and their children over and over again. Zeus and Kratos, Kratos and Atreus, Freya and Baldur, Thor and Magni/Modi, Odin and Baldur/Thor, Faye and Atreus. You have the central comparison being a distant father and an overprotective mother who both want to love their kids but have failed them or continue to fail them.

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Yup, exactly. And it depicts that comparison without fully condemning either Kratos or Freya for their failures. At its core, the game acknowledges that parenting is the most difficult duty most people will perform in their lives, and that even 'good' people like Freya can fail even when they have good intentions. You are meant to empathize with both Freya and Kratos, because while their decisions cause harm to their children, they are so understandable and human that you could see yourself making a similar mistake (if you are a parent) or have experienced similar mistakes (from your own parents).

 

[Nasigil]

Faye is kinda a dead wife cliche but it's ok.

Freya is a great character. Those things are exactly what an overly protected mother would do. Everything is convincing and fits the character.

Valkyries are fucking badasses. They are bosses, of course you beat them and kill them, what do you expect? Shake hands and have a nice conversation about gender equity before they give you rewards?

There's nothing wrong with how GOW treats women. At worst you can say it brings nothing new to the table, but I don't consider that to be a fault. It also brings nothing new to the table about a hundred other social problems but who cares.

It's the old GOW series that has quite some problematic ways to treat women.

 

[Saint-14]

The most obvious anti-women thing in the game is just that it ignores Kratos' prior violence against women to instead focus on Kratos killing his super villain father.

This is obviously done so that they can slowly escalate the severity of his crimes to Atreus without Atreus' love for Kratos looking stupid or ridiculous ("Boy, I killed 8 million people because I caused the end of the world." "I still love you, dad!") but yeah.

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His past violence against women (or any other person he used as an object) wouldn't have added anything to the story in this game unlike his father, some of you are really reaching with these arguments you're making.

 

[Deleted member 5596]

The thing is that these characters by itself, Freya, Faye and Valkyries aren't bad by themselves or isolation. The fact is that this is the only female representation in the game. A fridged female, overzealous and overprotective mother and females enemies that are just there to be destroyed. In a much richer and varied cast of females those wouldn't have been an issue, when this is all the game offers, it presents a problem.

While Kratos fatherhood tales gets warmer over time, Freya's motherhood gets mad and downright toxic, while Feya's is supposed to be a good warrior her real importance on the story is to set a motivation for the two male leads, while Valkyries are really powerful beings, their destiny is to be brutally killed by Kratos.

Meanwhile the men cast are wise and smart or simply mad or sensible like Atreus or violent and brutal but that grows to have a more emotionally sane fatherhood.

There's something to be appreciated about what it says about toxic masculinity (although it get kinda gets weird, when the game is still about killing everything in your way in brutal ways), but is clearly faulty regarding female representation.

 

[EarthPainting]

This thread pretty much mirrors the one from earlier in the week. Some people want to discuss the big picture patterns of female representation in games, and others want to dismiss it using the smaller, isolated scope of this particular game itself, and its in-universe justifications its creators have set up. Basically the same issue Feminist Frequency discussions bump into without fail. Yes, there are story-reasons why the game did these things, and you're allowed to think it works or is done in a meaningful way. Everybody understands, but it's important to keep in mind that these reasons and personal resonance don't undo the pattern itself. Everyone's still allowed to to enjoy media that falls into these tropes, and it doesn't make them bad people. You can still consume your media, that while acknowledging that these tropes are a real thing. There's no need to gaslight folks over this.

 

[Equanimity]

I definitely wouldn't call the game's depictions of women "problematic." But I would call them weak.

God of War's strength is in its study of masculinity and reframing male heroism through a feminist lens. God of War is about toxic masculinity constructs and it explores those themes extremely well. It does this by primarily positioning Kratos and Atreus against or adjacent to other male figures (including each other) so there is a point of reference to examine character traits typically associated with masculinity. A great companion documentary to God of War that explores these themes is The Mask You Live In, which I recommend to anybody who liked the game.

There is nothing wrong about having a story that focuses specifically on men and male relationships, but this game does include and portray women, which means those women are fair game for criticism and analysis. The truth is that as good as God of War is, female characters are not a narrative priority, and therefore they become storytelling tools that don't receive a lot of opportunity within the story.

There are three major roles for women in the game:
Faye, whose death serves as the inciting incident for the story ("fridged").
Freya, who is a slightly-mobile captive with little agency (damsel trope, defined by her relationship to male characters).
Valkyries, who are all turned evil and held captive (Rescuing women with violence trope, damsel trope).

This much is not disputable. These are literary devices that are tried and true that can be handily applied to all of these characters. It is unfortunate that, since there are so few women in the game, the ones that are present lean so heavily on literary stereotypes. None of these women are particularly "good" female characters, but for relying on the tropes they rely on, they could be worse. Faye is still portrayed to have been a hero and a radical in her own times. Freya's story ends with her being individually motivated and off to reclaim her birthright and she is a strong foil to Kratos himself. The Valkyries are all free and have returned to being the dominant militaristic force in the universe. These are good positions for the women of God of War to be in for our sequel game. But for God of War 2018, women are not a narrative priority, and it shows.

These women rely on tropes and stereotypes that serve as weak female story roles. You could argue that Faye and Freya and the like are still interesting characters, but their role in the story itself is utilitarian and merely ancillary. It is unfortunate, for example, that the Valkyrie all need to be murdered by Kratos so they can all go back to being battle angels and are imprisoned until he gets there. Characters of such power and stature deserve better than to sit and wait for Kratos to come kill them so they can be rescued.

Is God of War 2018 better to women than older God of War games? Absolutely. Could it be much worse? Absolutely. But being better than the old games and having had the potential to be worse is a low bar to meet.This doesn't make the game "problematic," but it leaves a lot to be desired in this department. It's been a prevalent conversation among fans since its release.


God of War 2018 is one of my favorite games. I think it's a tremendous piece of art. My experience with the game was deeply personal and formative and there are few games I have ever played that I can say effected me so profoundly. It is a transformative video game experience. But the game has problems, and there are parts of its story that could be better, and chief among them is how the game portrays women.

I like to think the story is going places and the clearly-planned over-arching narrative has roles in store for both the women we've met and the ones we haven't. I'm fairly confident that the reason we never see Faye's face or what she looks like is because she will appear in some form in later games and her character design is either not complete or is meant to be anticipated. Freya is obviously set up to be a primary antagonist. The Valkyrie all serve Freya as their queen. Plus there are obvious mythological figures like Hela we haven't seen yet.

But until then, God of War 2018 is a game that doesn't have very good female characters and they all rely on tropes to fulfill roles in the narrative. They aren't the worst offenders when it comes to using these tropes and it's still possible to like these characters despite the stereotyping but I don't know why anybody would harp on somebody else for saying they expect more out of female characters in their stories. Hopefully, by the time this story is complete, this isn't something we will look back on as a series failing.

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Are tropes bad if used effectively?

 

[Megatron]

To me it feels like you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the story and the character or Freya. You seem to believe a character automatically lacks growth or value just because they're angry about the murder of their child or blinded by love or protectionism, as if that doesn't happen all the time in real life. The fact that she is as hurt and vengeful about the murder of her son as she is, imo makes her more complex, not less. This is a person who'd already damned her son to immunity and lack of all sensation (inadvertently driving him mad) just to protect him, so the writing was already on the wall about how much she valued his safety and life above all else, in a misplaced sense of love or care.

After Freya offers her life in order to bring Baldr peace, Kratos himself actually says he would have done the exact same thing for Atreus, so by virtue of you thinking Freya is presented in poor light, you must also assume the same for Kratos too, but for whatever reason, you don't.

Also, Kratos and Atreus are not presented in a good way if that is your standard. They are still ultimately selfish and violent, and Kratos will do anything he can to survive or protect his son, even if that means killing in mass or returning to his old ways. I mean, that's a key component of Kratos's story arch, that he cannot hide from his past and must be the monster he is in order to selfishly protect his son at all costs (not too dissimilar to Freya).

As per an earlier post, Freya's turn from strong ally to vengeful foe was bitter irony and touched on a deeper narrative note. Kratos himself had done so much heinous shit to protect his own son, and yet he failed to understand what lengths Freya was willing to go to protect or give peace to her own.

Perhaps Kratos killed Baldr to help her, or perhaps he killed him with selfish intent, projecting his own desire to break the cycle of sons and daughters killing their fathers or mother's (which he implies), whilst simultaneously saving an ally that he likely thought might still be useful to him (Freya did after all help him throughout his journey). Either way, he had no right to make that decision.

Ultimately Kratos underestimated Freyas love for Baldr, and the lengths a parent would go for their family or children, and that is the great irony, since now Freya will be driven by a similar revenge to the kind that drove Kratos himself when Ares killed his own family back in Greece.

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These are good points. But everyone is analyzing these on a case by case basis. None of them on their own are that bad (as I said in the OP) but taken together is when it looks weird to me.

Freya's grief is interesting because she spent years isolated in exile. She clearly hadn't seen her son at all in a very long time likely more than 100 years, I'm not sure if they ever specified how much time. They clearly we're not close. But she carried guilt with her that whole time. She presumably blames herself for his descent into madness as a result of her well-meaning 'gift' to him.

 

[PspLikeANut]

Disagree completely with the thread question. If anything, Sony's first party games this gen have the best women characters. These women are treated with respect and have desirable qualities.

Faye and Freya are the second and third best female characters this generation. Number 1 belongs to Alloy. Shout out to Chloe, Nadine and Lady Maria.