Is God of War 2018's treatment towards women problematic? (Spoilers)

[GuEiMiRrIRoW]

I find funny a bunch of men feeling disturbed about something females should be outraged.

Anyway, God of War treats everyone as the bad guy. Always had, always will... GoW 4 was the first time they brought good values as overcome your past, raise a child, love your wife and other stuff.

They started a rendemption story here and we don't know how it will end.

I hate how people like to turn everything into politics because it's always a good time
To bash Donald Trump. Bash trump on the next election when americans decide to actually vote. Sorry, but this is a dumb thread.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Okay, I have to bring up one thing about the story that has always confused me.

At the midway point of the game, Kratos yells at the hallucination of Athena and says "I'm not your monster anymore!"

And that at the game Kratos is maybe a pawn of Faye who wants to kill all Norse gods?

So is this supposed to be an ironic echo or is the game played extremely straight and doesn't see the, uhhhh, issue here.

 

[TheModestGun]

I don't think the game treats anyone well.

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This. This game is a mythological tragedy and people need to start actually thinking about it within that context. I understand very much the need and want better representation for women in games, but some games are not necessarily going to be the best vehicles for that because of their subject matter and the specific story arcs they are trying to tell.

 

[Memento]

Freya's turn definitely felt ham-fisted and out of context. She was a strong and interesting character prior to this, then on a dime turning into a hysterical pawn, whose only motivation in a story sense, was to motivate Baldur's anger. It robbed her of her agency and character.

It could've been done better, but it wasn't handled well at all.

Not to mention that the game has no other portrayal of female characters, so it definitely stands out as being in poor taste.

The game very much feels like it's from the POV of male characters, made by male developers, which kind of shines through in the portrayal.

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They are clearly positioning her as one of the big villains of the next games, which it could go either way but I dont see how that undermines her character. She lost her son. Everything she has ever done (both good and bad) was in favour of Baldur (at least she thought so). And then Kratos killed him. I definitely dont think her turn was out of context in light of all that.

 

[Deleted member 12833]

No, it's not. Dead person as motivation is not "problematic"

Cliche, sure

There is also only a handful of characters, so underrepresention is a stretch as well.

 

[Asriel]

This thread is a pretty perfect example of why Etcetera laughs at this side of the forum when it comes to topics like this.

(I'm on the "yeah, it's not good" side in case it isn't clear)

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It's not surprising when it comes to this game, tbh. People thinks that threads are stupid, the game is flawless and nuance goes out the window. It's amazing how people are quick to dismiss that the topic is not problematic as objective fact.

 

[Deleted member 135]

Freya's turn definitely felt ham-fisted and out of context. She was a strong and interesting character prior to this, then on a dime turning into a hysterical pawn, whose only motivation in a story sense, was to motivate Baldur's anger. It robbed her of her agency and character.

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Her motivation was to protect her son, the only thing she had left in her life after Odin took away Vanaheim from her. A prophecy foretold that Baldur would meet a needless death so she took it upon herself, as any mother would, to do anything to protect him.

 

[Fudgepuppy]

They are clearly positioning her as one of the big villains of the next games, which it could go either way but I dont see how that undermines her character. She lost her son. Everything she has ever done (both good and bad) was in favour of Baldur (at least she thought so). And then Kratos killed him. I definitely dont think her turn was out of context in light of all that.

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Point is that she absolutely snapped without seeing any real gradual development of her. Prior to that, she had motivations, she had reasons, she had layers. Then off screen we hear about what she did to Baldur, and suddenly she appears and in hysterical tone, begs her son to kill her so she can atone for what she has done.

In 60% of the game, she felt like a character they wrote as a real person, after which they went ballistic and turned her into a mere plot-device for the sake of convenience and having a conflict at the end.

 

[RocknRola]

Okay, I have to bring up one thing about the story that has always confused me.

At the midway point of the game, Kratos yells at the hallucination of Athena and says "I'm not your monster anymore!"

And that at the game Kratos is maybe a pawn of Faye who wants to kill all Norse gods?

So is this supposed to be an ironic echo or is the game played extremely straight and doesn't see the, uhhhh, issue here.

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One forced him to become a literal monster and used the escape from his burdens as the perfect excuse to keep him doing the will of the Greek Gods again and again (which, for the most part, was rarely a positive thing for him or his targets).

The other forced him onto a path that thought him redemption and how to be a father again. Also it's very unclear that Faye's goal is to kill all of the Norse Gods as much as it is to make "Giants Great Again" per say. The latter, at this point in time, seems to be her goal and the former may or may not become a consequence of it (I doubt this Kratos is willing to go that far again unless it means Atreus can live, but time will tell).

It's an oranges to apples situation, despite in both cases there being someone behind his own actions.

 

[Asriel]

Completely agree. It's ridiculous how many people are defending God of War's depiction of women by citing Faye, when she's literally not even in the game. And the valkyries are optional bosses, they barely count as characters either.

At best God of War's representation of women is lacking because there's only one actual female character. I liked Freya up until the end but I found her reaction to Baldur trying to kill her completely unconvincing and it kind of ruined her for me. I'm interested to see where they take her in the next game but they're going to have to include a few more women for me to actually consider the representation good.

I loved the game otherwise, but this was one of the weak spots for me.

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Faye is apparently the most important character in the game, yet we don't ever even see her or actually know her as a person. The most important character in the game, yet Kratos and Atreus are the protagonists and we're playing their story. :sigh:

 

[Hellshy]

Faye not only was a badass warrior who was trusted with a great task, but also literally paints the path you walk on through the entire game making sure Kratos and Atreus discover what's needs to be learned. She is strong and very smart .

Freya is a strong character with flaws(the purest character in the game would imo would be Faye) just like every male character in the game . Literally every important character yshows their flaws including Atreus.

Maybe it's becuase I'm not a women but I don't see an issue. I say this becuase I don't see how changing the female characters roles would have benefited the story in anyway and if anything may hurt the story.

 

[Memento]

Okay, I have to bring up one thing about the story that has always confused me.

At the midway point of the game, Kratos yells at the hallucination of Athena and says "I'm not your monster anymore!"

And that at the game Kratos is maybe a pawn of Faye who wants to kill all Norse gods?

So is this supposed to be an ironic echo or is the game played extremely straight and doesn't see the, uhhhh, issue here.

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We still dont know Fayes motivation so I dont think anyone could answer that.

Particulary, I like the idea of Faye using Kratos to avenge the Giants and how it mirrors what Athena did to him. It could open up a huge potential for story line development. Like, the realization he is once again killing the Gods and being a muppet of someone he actually thought love was involved.

I dont think they are going for that though.

 

[FondsNL]

I'm looking at it from a different perspective.

Kratos and "boy" go on this insane quest out of a deep love and respect for their mother.
The fact that we don't see her is irrelevant.
The motivation is what matters.

The son-mother relationship between Baldur and Freya fits Norse or Classical Mythology perfectly.
It is very, very unfriendly towards a mother-figure yes. But I don't feel it's indicative of intentional hate towards women.

As far as the Valkyrie are concerned, I don't think there could be a greater confirmation of the strength of women.
The Valkyrie are warriors of legend and the greatest challenge in this game.
There wouldn't be much reason for Kratos to fight them if they weren't corrupt. There has to be some sort of reason for them to test his mettle against them right?

 

[Brotherhood93]

Point is that she absolutely snapped without seeing any real gradual development of her. Prior to that, she had motivations, she had reasons, she had layers. Then off screen we hear about what she did to Baldur, and suddenly she appears and in hysterical tone, begs her son to kill her so she can atone for what she has done.

In 60% of the game, she felt like a character they wrote as a real person, after which they went ballistic and turned her into a mere plot-device for the sake of convenience and having a conflict at the end.

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That isn't what happens. Baldur is trying to kill her and she simply says she won't fight him. The whole reason she cast her spell on him is so he can't die so that isn't surprising at all. I don't think any of it is out of nowhere. Baldur is basically all she has left since Odin robbed her of everything else.

 

[Deleted member 4976]

The game has a very confusing view of Freya.

Because... Freya is the villain.

She abuses her child for decades for her own selfish gains.

But then the game frames her as the victim of domestic violence when her abused son tries to kill her.

It's... very bizarre.

The game just wanted Kratos to kill someone while having it represent growth so they refused to humanize Baldur in any scenes and then had him choking a woman so that Kratos breaking his neck could be Cool and Anti-Hero and Profound and Good.

I made an entire thread about how Faye is a bizarre character also. You could view her as someone with a very convoluted plan to kill Odin that uses Kratos as a pawn for her plan but then... Kratos has no reaction to the revelation at the end so I'm not sure the game actually views her this way???

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Imagine ignoring actual plot in the game to push a take this fucking bad.

Holy shit.

 

[OneBadMutha]

Mythologies don't treat anyone well. I saw Freya's motivations as a mother. The other mother being dead at the start was to set up the struggling single dad angle. Saw nothing wrong with either. I think this is a case of looking for something that isn't there.

 

[Cyborg]

Oh come on. Cant we just play a game and enjoy it? Why does it always has to be about rights/treatment of an group?

Whats wrong with playing with only males, females, white or black? Does it make you a racist if you dont care about the person you are controling as long as the game/story is good and you enjoy it.

This thread is again next level, like Cory Barlog intentaly has treaten women bad in this game (he has a wife and daugther and great respect for women). Its just a game deal with it and dont always make mainstream claim instead of that just ENJOY THE GAME, like in your childhood days. Without worries or complaits, you will be much happier.

 

[MrKlaw]

Freya I thought was a great character, and well written and performed. The Valkyrie was very similar to other side quests - freeing trapped spirits which you do to many people aroun the map, not just the Valkyrie. All are thankful that their spirits are freed, it isn't unique to these female characters. Plus they are rock hard - probably the lenses in the game

PS - I rep;y bloody hate the rise of the term 'optics'. Eurgh.

I was surprised to hear Abby's criticism

 

[Soap]

I think it's a fair interpretation, but not one I agree with. My biggest issue with Freya is turning her into a villain. I found her a deeply compelling character up until the end, and there is plenty of space to make adjustments in the sequel.

 

[Mifec]

Freya's turn definitely felt ham-fisted and out of context. She was a strong and interesting character prior to this, then on a dime turning into a hysterical pawn, whose only motivation in a story sense, was to motivate Baldur's anger. It robbed her of her agency and character.

It could've been done better, but it wasn't handled well at all.

Not to mention that the game has no other portrayal of female characters, so it definitely stands out as being in poor taste.

The game very much feels like it's from the POV of male characters, made by male developers, which kind of shines through in the portrayal.

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Hey if you don't mind I want to ask what felt out of context and ham-fisted.

We have Freya who through political marriage ended up getting married to the biggest piece of shit in the realms. Ends up having a kid who she genuinely cares for and is the only worthwhile thing to come out of her time with the Aesir. At some point she finds out that he is destined to die and his death will herald Fimbulwinter. Obviously her love for her son is so great that she decides to make him immortal at the cost of his senses. He doesn't take it well as we see from the flashback in Helheim. Eventually she's stranded on Midgard and hasn't seen him for idk how long. So we obviously have a mother who will go to insane lengths to keep her son alive no matter the cost or damage to their relationship, she puts his life above it.

Then at the end of the game she finally gets to see him after a long time and it's clear he still resents her for what she did to him and wants to kill her. She doesn't beg him to kill her at any point btw, she keeps asking for forgiveness and for the chance to start over. Baldur is obviously too emotionally damaged to even think about it and the only thing he can think of is killing her as revenge for a "lifetime of misery".

So she puts his wishes and life above hers and being unable to fight back resigns herself to being killed by him.

This is not a random 180 on her personality nor does it take agency away from her. It's the exact same person who went as far as making him immortal and unfeeling now deciding that she puts his vengeance above her life, because she loves him that much.

It's perfectly in line with her prior actions.

 

[kaputt]

Yup, gotta agree that Freya was badly handled. It bothered me so much how her story ended, such an interesting character, it made no sense.

But seriously, aside of Kratos, no other character was well handled in this game. Not even Atreus, see his Kanye West moment as an example. Every character was felt like a tool for Kratos personal redemption journey, without much surprises, and it was kinda lame.

 

[Nax]

My wife and I loved the Freya character. Didn't have a problem with the wife. In fact, I was constantly clamoring for more information regarding her, since her character was so mysterious. I thought it was a good angle. No controversy that we could see.

 

[a Question]

For me its kinda hard to understand what some people's perspective on Cliche is. Like everything can be some up as clishe or not surprising if you look at it such way. its my problem with murder mestery movies I can not get into them because imideatly I see every character as a Killer and when the twist happens I do not find it that great. Which is my problem not movies fault.

So maybe its problem with not how clishe story is but how some people had view on it.

Edit Thank you Soriku and sorry to every one for bad spelling

 

[Soriku]

This thread is a pretty perfect example of why Etcetera laughs at this side of the forum when it comes to topics like this.

(I'm on the "yeah, it's not good" side in case it isn't clear)

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How does Etcetera feel about no context drive by posts?

For me its kinda hard to understand what some people's perspective on clishe is. Like everything can be some up as clishe or not surprising if you look at it such way. its my problem with murder mestery movies I can not get into them because imideatly I see every character as a Killer and when the twist happens I do not find it that great. Which is my problem not movies fault.

So maybe its problem with not how clishe story is but how some people had view on it.

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Cliche*

 

[Memento]

Point is that she absolutely snapped without seeing any real gradual development of her. Prior to that, she had motivations, she had reasons, she had layers. Then off screen we hear about what she did to Baldur, and suddenly she appears and in hysterical tone, begs her son to kill her so she can atone for what she has done.

In 60% of the game, she felt like a character they wrote as a real person, after which they went ballistic and turned her into a mere plot-device for the sake of convenience and having a conflict at the end.

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I mean, she freak out when she saw Atreus' green arrows. Baldur was clearly her weakness. She is depicted as an imperfect character since the beginning. In fact the whole thing about casting the spell om Baldur so he cant die is really about her selfishness (but also her extreme love for her child).

 

[TheModestGun]

Okay, I have to bring up one thing about the story that has always confused me.

At the midway point of the game, Kratos yells at the hallucination of Athena and says "I'm not your monster anymore!"

And that at the game Kratos is maybe a pawn of Faye who wants to kill all Norse gods?

So is this supposed to be an ironic echo or is the game played extremely straight and doesn't see the, uhhhh, issue here.

Click to shrink...

I think one aspect you have to think about is Norse mythology and it's fatalistic perspective. Faye is merely playing her part in a predestined set of events and the arrival of Kratos sped up that process. Her part was not a malicious one towards Kratos but probably her duty in her destiny. Everyone is part of the fate of Ragnarok. It's up to the next couple of games as to whether Kratos circumvents or somehow subverts the Fate of the Nordic pantheon.

 

[Ravelle]

The valkyries thank you for ripping apart their physical form because they're valkyries, they're spirits that don't belong in the physical world of mankind, they were corrupted and imprissoned in these physical forms and sealed away. I don't think the optics really matter since Kratos rips open pretty much anything and everyone.

 

[Mifec]

Cant we just play a game and enjoy it? Why does it always has to be about rights/treatment of an group?

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No we can't and people should be allowed to talk about it and criticize games on that basis.

 

[Protome]

I think the treatment of Faye is lazy and trope-ish but not inherently problematic. Just in a game with a story I otherwise really enjoyed them falling on the "well a woman died to motivate these men" trope was just boring as hell. That said, I can completely get why others would find it problematic.

I thought Freya was handled well up until the end. I get what they were trying to do with her but I just didn't feel like it stuck the landing.

I think the important thing the overly defensive people in this thread are forgetting is that, just because something is potentially problematic doesn't mean you can't enjoy the game. And just because you enjoy the game and don't care about critical dissection of it doesn't mean it's a bad thing to discuss. You just don't need to discuss it, that's fine.

 

[get2sammyb]

I mean people clearly absorbed the plot better than I did in this thread and are making much stronger arguments, but for me I just saw a bunch of flawed characters (both male and female) who get things wrong and make mistakes.

 

[nbnt]

Never did the Valkyrie missions so I don't know about them, but yeah Freya's ending was terrible. And to have Kratos save her there was just like ugh. I could almost imagine Kratos walking away after that scene saying "pfffft, women" to his son. I'm sure that wasn't the intention, but it was just weird.

 

[Playsage]

Okay, I have to bring up one thing about the story that has always confused me.

At the midway point of the game, Kratos yells at the hallucination of Athena and says "I'm not your monster anymore!"

And that at the game Kratos is maybe a pawn of Faye who wants to kill all Norse gods?

So is this supposed to be an ironic echo or is the game played extremely straight and doesn't see the, uhhhh, issue here.

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Don't play dumb.

The relationships Kratos has with those 2 women couldn't be more different.

 

[SCUMMbag]

I don't think God of War handles female characters particularly well but relative to other games and the industry as a whole, it's in the top tier. Which is sad.

 

[a Question]

The valkyries thank you for ripping apart their physical form because they're valkyries, they're spirits that don't belong in the physical world of mankind, they were corrupted and imprissoned in these physical forms and sealed away. I don't think the optics really matter since Kratos rips open pretty much anything and everyone.

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From Giant bomb and this thread conversetion I think people who have problem with valkyries being killed and thankfuel is that valkyries being thankfull for being killed they do not have issue with what the motivation or explanation behind such acts but the fact that it is there that bothers them.

Never did the Valkyrie missions so I don't know about them, but yeah Freya's ending was terrible. And to have Kratos save her there was just like ugh. I could almost imagine Kratos walking away after that scene saying "pfffft, women" to his son. I'm sure that wasn't the intention, but it was just weird.

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Kratos literally says that he do the same for Atreus.

 

[Nauren]

I mean Freya was depicted as I would have imagined her to be from norse mythology. She went around the entire world to make every object swear to never harm Baldur. (Obviously missing the mistletoe). Then even went to Hel to try to get him resurrected and nearly succeeded.

 

[kingPaPi]

To me this thread is the perfect example of people looking for controversy where there is none.

Luckily for me I found out there was an ignore button just a moment ago.

 

[B-Dubs]

As a reminder, just because you do not take issue with something doesn't mean other people can't. Please be respectful in this topic.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Don't play dumb.

The relationships Kratos has with those 2 women couldn't be more different.

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We're never really shown Kratos' relationship to Faye and Faye lies to Kratos about everything.

 

[Deleted member 47700]

Oh come on. Cant we just play a game and enjoy it? Why does it always has to be about rights/treatment of an group?

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Can't we just play a game and enjoy it while engaging critically with storytelling/thematic aspects? Why does everything have to be about empty escapism and "fun"?

 

[Memento]

Yup, gotta agree that Freya was badly handled. It bothered me so much how her story ended, such an interesting character, it made no sense.

But seriously, aside of Kratos, no other character was well handled in this game. Not even Atreus, see his Kanye West moment as an example. Every character was felt like a tool for Kratos personal redemption journey, without much surprises, and it was kinda lame.

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Atreus is a kid. He just discovered he was a God. He reacts exacly like a kid in that situation would. I understand he was irritating but I found it a breath of fresh air how honest that whole edgy segment was.

About Freya, read Mifec last post.

 

[Deleted member 4976]

As a reminder, just because you do not take issue with something doesn't mean other people can't. Please be respectful in this topic.

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Just to be clear, we are supposed to be respectful to a poster insinuating that the creative director of the game probably resents his mother?

Just wanted to make sure I'm on the same page here.

 

[No42.05W70.2]

Can't we just play a game and enjoy it while engaging critically with storytelling/thematic aspects? Why does everything have to be about empty escapism and "fun"?

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Exactly this. I still really enjoyed the game. A lot of the dialog and performance capture was excellent. So yeah, just pointing out some issues I took with it.

 

[Memento]

Something I have come to realize is how people keep asking for more and more information on your face in regards to plot.

You guys are lucky because the way the industry is, I think we are going to see a prequel about Faye and Kratos (how they met), so dont worry.

 

[Hellshy]

Point is that she absolutely snapped without seeing any real gradual development of her. Prior to that, she had motivations, she had reasons, she had layers. Then off screen we hear about what she did to Baldur, and suddenly she appears and in hysterical tone, begs her son to kill her so she can atone for what she has done.

In 60% of the game, she felt like a character they wrote as a real person, after which they went ballistic and turned her into a mere plot-device for the sake of convenience and having a conflict at the end.

Click to shrink...

At firsr I thought the hysteria turn was jarring but than after thinking on it a bit the whole thing made more sense.

People snap in real life all the time without people around them noticing anything wrong prior to the outburst. It was also the first time we see her with family, family can bring out the worst in us.

As a parent who may feel guilt towards an action they caused their child and the need isn't slapped in the face with all the anger she is causing him I can somewhat understand how she behaves in the Balder scene. Besides maybe wanting one give him some release she also knows he's never going to stop begging her for the cure she refuses to give him. Letting him kill her is a solution she thinks might alleviate his suffering. Besides ahes not going to kill him ,she isn't going to convince him , so the other option is to run and have him continue to be tormented and chase her downbeat for a cure.

 

[Deleted member 135]

I think one aspect you have to think about is Norse mythology and it's fatalistic perspective. Faye is merely playing her part in a predestined set of events and the arrival of Kratos sped up that process. Her part was not a malicious one towards Kratos but probably her duty in her destiny. Everyone is part of the fate of Ragnarok. It's up to the next couple of games as to whether Kratos circumvents or somehow subverts the Fate of the Nordic pantheon.

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The idea I got from the game is that Faye's "mission" was to change the outcome of Ragnarock (and by extension save the Giants). We've already seen what impact an outsider god and a bridge between worlds did to change the prophecy by making Fimbulwinter start a century early.

 

[Mifec]

Just to be clear, we are supposed to be respectful to a poster insinuating that the creative director of the game probably resents his mother?

Just wanted to make sure I'm on the same page here.

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No it's for posters who come into the thread and complain about people discussing this stuff at all and saying why does this thread exist and so on. That post you mentioned was trash.

Atreus is a kid. He just discovered he was a God. He reacts exacly like a kid in that situation would. I understand he was irritating but I found it a breath of fresh air how honest that whole edgy segment was.

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It was really badly written, probably the worst part of the game so I see why people complain.

 

[Playsage]

We're never really shown Kratos' relationship to Faye and Faye lies to Kratos about everything.

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It's very much implied through the game's narratve, though...

Either you didn't pay attention or, considering your post history about the game, you are trying really hard to undermine the game for whatever reasons.

It's probably not the first time you've got called out for being disingenuous in order to make arguments.

 

[Memento]

At firsr I thought the hysteria turn was jarring but than after thinking on it a bit the whole thing made more sense.

People snap in real life all the time without people around them noticing anything wrong prior to the outburst. It was also the first time we see her with family, family can bring out the worst in us.

As a parent who may feel guilt towards an action they caused their child and the need isn't slapped in the face with all the anger she is causing him I can somewhat understand how she behaves in the Balder scene. Besides maybe wanting one give him some release she also knows he's never going to stop begging her for the cure she refuses to give him. Letting him kill her is a solution she thinks might alleviate his suffering. Besides ahes not going to kill him ,she isn't going to convince him , so the other option is to run and have him continue to be tormented and chase her downbeat for a cure.

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Yup.

In fact, she goes crazy when she sees Atreus' green arrows that can disable Baldur's curse.

The ending is not out of nowhere at all.

 

[kaputt]

Atreus is a kid. He just discovered he was a God. He reacts exacly like a kid in that situation would. I understand he was irritating but I found it a breath of fresh air how honest that whole edgy segment was.

About Freya, read Mifec last post.

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I thought it was incoherent with the personality he showed up until that moment. He was a vibrant kid, but never showed to be petty or even fond of tantrum. Even though you can argue that too much power can eventually lead to that behavior, the transition happened too damn fast.

 

[Memento]

It was really badly written, probably the worst part of the game so I see why people complain.

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I dont agree. I dont think having dialogue written in honesty to the character's age equals bad writing.