Gender issues aside, the last act is plain under developed. There isn't enough plot progression, and too many padded enemy encounters.
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Is God of War 2018's treatment towards women problematic? (Spoilers)
- Thread starter Megatron
- Start date
It's basically a Marvel movie, like Thor. Popcorn-y, has pop-culture appeal. Still emblematic of most of the same problems that envelop society, while the issues are largely ignored by those who... well, just want to eat some popcorn. Difficult to really convince people that's what they're doing though; hard to see the world from a context you'd rather not invite as a potential frame of reference.
Freya is clearly aware of how to break the spell at all times and actively chooses not to save Baldur from his torture no matter how much Baldur begs her. Freya repeatedly lies to Baldur and claims that she doesn't know how to break the spell.
I think some people are trying too hard to measure their own lives with the ones they see on screen.
Your mother not letting you walk to school on your own is not the same as a mother granting her son eternal life.
One is a narrative seen in many cultures about the gift/curse of immortality and the other is selfish parents.
Your mother not letting you walk to school on your own is not the same as a mother granting her son eternal life.
One is a narrative seen in many cultures about the gift/curse of immortality and the other is selfish parents.
Yea.
As for why he got involved....Baldur came knocking to Kratos' place lol. Minding his own business was exactly what Kratos wanted to do.
Enjoyment is very subjective though. What you enjoy might not be what I enjoy and even if it is, it might not even be in the same way. It's hard (if not impossible, really) to quantify "enjoyment" or "fun factor" since we (as individuals) range from wildly to ever so slightly different views/opinions on what those two things are.
For me, the lack of boss variety and how "slow" the exploration was(this especially) hurt the game for me. Since I didn't collect all of the secrets (which, sure, are optional) on the 1st run of the story I had to back for them. I was already kinda annoyed how long it took to teleport from one area to another, when I had to collect all that stuff it just killed my enjoyment of it.
The bosses, much like GoW3, started off FANTASTIC and then kinda went "meh" when you were forced to fight variants of the same Troll enemy quite a few times in a row. Granted, the "unique" ones were pretty much 10/10.
The other few issues I have with the game didn't bother me, they're more stuff I noticed here and there (the side-quest stuff for example).
Freya isnt a villain and just a mother who tried to protect her son and even her wrath against Kratos at the end gonna vanish after some time.
Hell even Mimir at the end speaks it out at the end for everyone who doesnt get it.
Every time I feel like I'm losing my mind I browse resetera and posts like this in the front page bring me back to reality.
GOW has a few problems, but what's in OP is not one of them.
GOW has a few problems, but what's in OP is not one of them.
Mimir directly spells out the game's view of her, but the game's view of her doesn't make sense. Freya is an abuser whose abuse isn't taken very seriously from the game.
WAT
I dont agree... at all.
1. The Valkyries: They are literally the strongests enemies in the game and have one of the most important position of power in that mythos. They are some of the most empowering female enemies I have ever seen in any game, period.
2. Faye, The Mother: She is NOT just a plot device. The way Faye is described shows a great amount of respect for her character and also portrayls her as ome of the strongest beings on Norse World. There is a dialogue in which the Head says she would be the only one capable of competing against the Norse Gods. Also, by the end of the game we discover we were all part of her plan, which means she has agency in the story even without ever showing up. She is depicted as smart, strong and loving. She is also MOST DEFINITELY going to appear somewhere in the sequels. For me it is very clear they are building up that moment (yes I know she is supposedly dead but we are definitely going to see her in some form).
3. Freya: She fought fucking Odin because of her son and goes on living her life alone and cursed because of it. She also shows a level of agency and characterization few side female characters have in videogames: she can protect herself, she doesnt need saving in any moment (in the end she didnt need saving, she let Baldur does that), she has a strong personality and strong feelings for people she cares about. Also, we later discover she was the Queen of fucking Valkyries. The lady is no damsell in distress. I dont understand why someone could have a problem with the ending. The problem is she turning evil or Baldur almost killing her? In any case I cant see how that can change the fact she is a great character.
If the problem is about violence against women, then this is a very stupid discussion. We are talking about God of War, and violence is a big part of it. In fact, I think it would be MUCH MORE alarming and disgusting if they toned down violence against women BECAUSE they were women.
I dont agree... at all.
1. The Valkyries: They are literally the strongests enemies in the game and have one of the most important position of power in that mythos. They are some of the most empowering female enemies I have ever seen in any game, period.
2. Faye, The Mother: She is NOT just a plot device. The way Faye is described shows a great amount of respect for her character and also portrayls her as ome of the strongest beings on Norse World. There is a dialogue in which the Head says she would be the only one capable of competing against the Norse Gods. Also, by the end of the game we discover we were all part of her plan, which means she has agency in the story even without ever showing up. She is depicted as smart, strong and loving. She is also MOST DEFINITELY going to appear somewhere in the sequels. For me it is very clear they are building up that moment (yes I know she is supposedly dead but we are definitely going to see her in some form).
3. Freya: She fought fucking Odin because of her son and goes on living her life alone and cursed because of it. She also shows a level of agency and characterization few side female characters have in videogames: she can protect herself, she doesnt need saving in any moment (in the end she didnt need saving, she let Baldur does that), she has a strong personality and strong feelings for people she cares about. Also, we later discover she was the Queen of fucking Valkyries. The lady is no damsell in distress. I dont understand why someone could have a problem with the ending. The problem is she turning evil or Baldur almost killing her? In any case I cant see how that can change the fact she is a great character.
If the problem is about violence against women, then this is a very stupid discussion. We are talking about God of War, and violence is a big part of it. In fact, I think it would be MUCH MORE alarming and disgusting if they toned down violence against women BECAUSE they were women.
It's not hard to understand. Kratos wasn't going to let Freya get killed after she saved Atreus and Baldur still had standing orders from Odin to kill or capture Kratos. He still didn't know he wasn't the giant he was looking for.
Baldur was incredibly unstable.
One thing I want to add is that technically Faye's actions aren't just in service of Kratos and Atreus, Giants were at war and losing, she made decisions of war. We don't know what especifically she told to her people other than what we can read on the walls.
I take her actions are for Kratos and Atreus as much as they are for her people and the end of the war.
I take her actions are for Kratos and Atreus as much as they are for her people and the end of the war.
Seriously?
It's a story (an uncomplete one at that - some of the major players haven't even shown up on screen yet), they can take it in whatever direction they want. And all the characters are treated like shit, yes many males included - how many lore stories from Mimir do there need to be to make this obvious?
The game is supposed show the dynamic relationship between Kratos as his son, both as a single father yet also as a God. Nothing wrong with that. The mother is intentionally an enigmatic character for good reasons - there are some plot twists in the end which wouldn't work if she wasn't gone. There's a good chance she'll appear in some form in GoW2.
I'm not understanding the complaint about Freya. Freya is intentionally struck down by Odin and her son is a psycho, unfortunate but she doesn't get a happy character arc. She's going to be a villain in GoW2 as well. We'll see if she gets some kind of redemption arc, but this is a story about gods - they don't always have happy endings.
The Valkyries are tied to Freya, they're cursed because of what she did to Odin and Odin is the leader of gods so obviously he's a dick. They're shown as strong warriors anyway.
Also there really aren't that many characters in the cast to really go off about underrepresented women or whatever. Most of the characters are simply talked about not shown. At the same time the women are among the most important or strongest.
It's a story (an uncomplete one at that - some of the major players haven't even shown up on screen yet), they can take it in whatever direction they want. And all the characters are treated like shit, yes many males included - how many lore stories from Mimir do there need to be to make this obvious?
The game is supposed show the dynamic relationship between Kratos as his son, both as a single father yet also as a God. Nothing wrong with that. The mother is intentionally an enigmatic character for good reasons - there are some plot twists in the end which wouldn't work if she wasn't gone. There's a good chance she'll appear in some form in GoW2.
I'm not understanding the complaint about Freya. Freya is intentionally struck down by Odin and her son is a psycho, unfortunate but she doesn't get a happy character arc. She's going to be a villain in GoW2 as well. We'll see if she gets some kind of redemption arc, but this is a story about gods - they don't always have happy endings.
The Valkyries are tied to Freya, they're cursed because of what she did to Odin and Odin is the leader of gods so obviously he's a dick. They're shown as strong warriors anyway.
Also there really aren't that many characters in the cast to really go off about underrepresented women or whatever. Most of the characters are simply talked about not shown. At the same time the women are among the most important or strongest.
User Banned (5 Days): Dismissing concerns surrounding representation
This issue has been litigated and relitigated more than the 2016 Democratic primary.
Abby can never substantiate her position to anyone's satisfaction when pressed on things like this because she's one of those people who feels the need to express an opinion on absolutely everything, which requires forming those opinions quickly and without an overabundance of analysis.
Abby can never substantiate her position to anyone's satisfaction when pressed on things like this because she's one of those people who feels the need to express an opinion on absolutely everything, which requires forming those opinions quickly and without an overabundance of analysis.
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Yes, because she knows that if she undoes the spell then he's going to be killed. She's a mother that's already had a lot stripped away from her and she doesn't want to lose her child as well. Is it selfish? Yes, but again how many parents would react different in a similar situation? You're painting a picture where these characters are black and white in terms of their handling when it's not. It should be just as easy for someone to see why Baldur was so angry at Freya just as you should be able to see why she'd use her powers to stop something horrible from happening to him.
In boat mimir also tells us why freay cast that spell to baldur. It was out of love and mimir also says, that it doesn't mean it was smart thing to do but freay was so blinded that she did it anyway.
People to stupid shit for their childrens and think they are doing good, even when they aren't.
How is this a good thing? lol. Great women affect their husbands and sons without ever being seen or heard from. I think women should be present in stories, and be fleshed out human beings.
People sure like to find issues where there is none. I am currently going through my second play-through of the game and I am not noticing any issues with the way the game is portraying women.
Faye: The most important character in the game. You would only think that she is a bad character if you only played the first 2 hours of the game and think that she is only a dead woman. I have a feeling we will see flashback of her in the sequel.
Freya: I loved her character to the point that I wish that she doesn't turn bad in the sequel. I hope she realizes that the true enemies are Odin and Thor. There is a reason she couldn't fight her son or resist, well there are a couple. She is willing to sacrifice everything for him because she feels guilty. She also literally can't harm him because Odin put a curse on her that she can't harm a living soul. But I have a feeling that she will find a way to remove the curse put on her and fight Kratos in the sequel.
The Valkyries: The toughest characters in the game, and Mimir spends sooo much time basically admiring them and their greatness. The whole world is out of balance because of their absence.
People will find ways to criticize anything... For example, let's look at Mimir. He is my favorite character in the game, if he was a woman, he would still be my favorite character in the game. But imagine the outrage that would happen!!!
"OMG Kratos cuts off her head and then walks around for the rest of the game with her head attached to his backside. He doesn't even call her by her name. He just calls her "head" and tells her to speak only when he wants her to. BOYCOTT SONY"
There are plenty of other games where treatment of women is problematic, including pretty much all the other GOW games, just not this one.
Faye: The most important character in the game. You would only think that she is a bad character if you only played the first 2 hours of the game and think that she is only a dead woman. I have a feeling we will see flashback of her in the sequel.
Freya: I loved her character to the point that I wish that she doesn't turn bad in the sequel. I hope she realizes that the true enemies are Odin and Thor. There is a reason she couldn't fight her son or resist, well there are a couple. She is willing to sacrifice everything for him because she feels guilty. She also literally can't harm him because Odin put a curse on her that she can't harm a living soul. But I have a feeling that she will find a way to remove the curse put on her and fight Kratos in the sequel.
The Valkyries: The toughest characters in the game, and Mimir spends sooo much time basically admiring them and their greatness. The whole world is out of balance because of their absence.
People will find ways to criticize anything... For example, let's look at Mimir. He is my favorite character in the game, if he was a woman, he would still be my favorite character in the game. But imagine the outrage that would happen!!!
"OMG Kratos cuts off her head and then walks around for the rest of the game with her head attached to his backside. He doesn't even call her by her name. He just calls her "head" and tells her to speak only when he wants her to. BOYCOTT SONY"
There are plenty of other games where treatment of women is problematic, including pretty much all the other GOW games, just not this one.
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While I agree 100%, Etcetera can be really bad too especially when it involves cops, republicans or war criminals like Bush Senior.
Though this thread is not about discussing either forum section.
Oh my God... dude how would the game even work if she was alive? The whole point of it is a personal story between Kratos and Atreus going on a adventure to throw her ashes in the highest peak of the realm.
Also did you hear the whole thing I wrote? We are talking about a game that most definitely is ramping up for a sequel which will answer a lot of questions left unanswered, and Faye is clearly still a mistery. We dont even know if she actually loved Kratos. For all we know she could just be using him to avenge the Giants. They are building antecipation for a reveal.
Completely agree. It's ridiculous how many people are defending God of War's depiction of women by citing Faye, when she's literally not even in the game. And the valkyries are optional bosses, they barely count as characters either.
At best God of War's representation of women is lacking because there's only one actual female character. I liked Freya up until the end but I found her reaction to Baldur trying to kill her completely unconvincing and it kind of ruined her for me. I'm interested to see where they take her in the next game but they're going to have to include a few more women for me to actually consider the representation good.
I loved the game otherwise, but this was one of the weak spots for me.
Get out of your high horse and explain why it is not good because most people that dont find it a problem has already explained here why they dont think the treatment of women is a problem in the game and they all raised valid points in light of the game' story, characters and world.
Her view of Baldur, in this version of the lore (which I might add is most definitely NOT a 1:1 version of it, there are quite a few changes in personality from the few Gods shown already), is indeed a weird.
He is the only thing she values from a her relationship with Odin. He was the only positive thing to actively come out of it. Which is a big part of the reason as to why she does what she does, despite very much hiding herself from anything else related to Odin or the Norse Gods in general. And it's clearly portrayed as the WRONG thing to do, the game shows and tells us this pretty clearly. In your trips to Helheim you discover just how desperate Baldur is to break this curse and how she denies him that release again and again, due to very distorted motherly love of sorts.
Which is why Mimir, if my memory doesn't fail me (this was in March), actually uses a fairly sinister tone whenever he has to refer to the curse or of Freyas own destiny (at that point in time). Another big reason, which may or may not become relavant in the following games, is that Baldur dying = Ragnarok = the cataclysmic destruction of the cosmos and everything in it – even the gods (though there's 99% chance it'll become very relevant given the path of the story so far).
The fact that she'd rather die, by her sons own hands no less, than free him of the curse shows how disturbed her view of the whole situation had become.
Kratos killing Baldur, at face value is just Kratos being Kratos (the man is very good at killing things in general), but it's also the conclusion of the last arc of the story (of the 1st game) about changing the anger/revenge cycles of "sons killing parents" that he himself fulfilled in the previous games (with an incredibly success rate I might add) and tries to have Atreus avoid. It was more symbolic than anything in that context, even if we later find out that (perhaps) Atreus won't be able to change it at all in the future. But yes, it can be viewed as "cool" moment of sorts, despite what the game tries to set up previously.
Like I mentioned before, while the women in this game aren't always shown in a positive light (and basically no character is shown in a positive light, not even the damn shop keepers), they're represented in a fair or good manner. Freya has issues. She starts as an ally, the only you have that isn't a shop or a lore deposit, gets reveled to be just as twisted as any character in the series and ends up trying to follow through on those misguided/twisted views by the end of it.
I don't see how you can reach that conclusion unless you miss/ignore/don't understand large parts of the game and it's themes
"They have a story reason for this, but ignoring that, the optics are bad here" now that's an impenetrable defense
surely there's something else more credible for resetera to be mad at today. I'm sure something will pop up by noon
"They have a story reason for this, but ignoring that, the optics are bad here" now that's an impenetrable defense
surely there's something else more credible for resetera to be mad at today. I'm sure something will pop up by noon
If the name of Kratos' wife was revealed prior to the ending, the whole plot twist would be spoiled so the point fails.
Freiya is exactly like that in norse mythology.
The valkyries are warriors.
Freiya is exactly like that in norse mythology.
The valkyries are warriors.
I don't necessarily agree with the whole argument presented in the OP.
I am just once again astonished by the reaction to even posing the question.
So many just dismissing the argument. Zero engagement, literally just "stop talking about this!"
Also a lot of people missing the point. This isn't "why are all the female characters weak"? This is "Does God of War try to empower it's female characters at a surface level but still end up just using them as plot devices for the male cast?"
A discussion worth having. I, personally, think the game does a decent enough job with it's female cast but absolutely agree it there some elements of "fridging" going on here. I don't particularly hold it against the game, it has a very small cast of characters anyway, most of the side characters are given the same amount of depth.
It becomes more of an issue with the mother because, as has been previously mentioned, she is not a real character yet. She may be influential in the world but we know nothing little of her true motivations. This Kratos and Atreyus' story. I think that is fine but I can see why all the women in the game being welcoming of the violence meted out to them by men would rub Abby the wrong way.
I am just once again astonished by the reaction to even posing the question.
So many just dismissing the argument. Zero engagement, literally just "stop talking about this!"
Also a lot of people missing the point. This isn't "why are all the female characters weak"? This is "Does God of War try to empower it's female characters at a surface level but still end up just using them as plot devices for the male cast?"
A discussion worth having. I, personally, think the game does a decent enough job with it's female cast but absolutely agree it there some elements of "fridging" going on here. I don't particularly hold it against the game, it has a very small cast of characters anyway, most of the side characters are given the same amount of depth.
It becomes more of an issue with the mother because, as has been previously mentioned, she is not a real character yet. She may be influential in the world but we know nothing little of her true motivations. This Kratos and Atreyus' story. I think that is fine but I can see why all the women in the game being welcoming of the violence meted out to them by men would rub Abby the wrong way.
This is.... not it. This thread reads as another "game is bad if female characters aren't strong, bad ass, and immune to bad outcomes". Allow for female characters to have, you know, depth to them and actual back story that aren't just used as sick plot points for male tears or boobs.
If you need a dead woman to tell your story, maybe the story isn't that good to begin with.
There is a lot to unpack in the story, you just have to pay attention. Faye was a giant, the apparent leader of the Giants. She had a mission to save her people and her apparent death was necessary for that mission to succeed. This is only the beginning of the story, of her story.
Also I can't help but wonder if the people who don't understand Kratos' or Freya's motivations and reactions are or are not parents themselves? As a parent they are both completely understandable.
I mean, like
If this was a TV episode where a father was murdering her daughter's boyfriends.
I think that would probably be portrayed as pretty evil.
It's incredibly easy for anyone who isn't a parent to understand both of their motivations. Doesn't even require any deeper thought, just paying attention.
I know, I expected this forum to be above the reactionary gamer thing of ear covering and loudly going "LALALA you're ridiculous stop talking about this" whenever a conversation that makes them uncomfortable arises.
MGS3 fans: The boss had to die for her country. Oh forever praise be the noble sacrifice of the boss.
Me: uhhh nah. That was just kinda lame.
I mean... I disagree with how she worded it. If worded correctly I wonder if she had a point? I think she's basically saying "women typically aren't the ones complaining, it's dudes playing knights on the internet" or something...
On topic you cannot filter and adjust everything just because it may hurt someone's feelings. As brutal as the lore is... That's the story. I don't believe they did that to offend anyone, as there were plenty of women on the development team from what I remember. I think it was just the brutality of the story and written characters.
Besides... It's not the first time we've seen a story of a mother allowing a son or other sibling to get away with something terrible because she loves them.
As for the valkeryies, I don't see a problem. Just because it's not Saturday morning disney'd like the valks in Thor, doesn't mean it's wrong. I'm almost positive a real life Thor would be brutal when killing... Not the way marvel portrays him. If god of war was developed by Disney then I'm sure kratos would hit them, they would kneel over and then just lay down, spirits floating up and thanking him, and then kratos walking away.
I feel the violence in TLOU2 is gonna really sit sour with people on this forum...
I think everybody missing this scene
Correct me if I'm wrong but i dont think Kratos showed any respect towards anyone (on screen) in all games let alone a handshake. I'm pretty sure this kinda adresses games perspective on women.
Correct me if I'm wrong but i dont think Kratos showed any respect towards anyone (on screen) in all games let alone a handshake. I'm pretty sure this kinda adresses games perspective on women.
Do you really cant understand the premise of a game having a dead person as a motivation?
At that point I would agree with you it is lazy and undermines women representation as a plot device.
But by the end of the game we see Faye had agency in everything it happened in the plot. She is the most important character in the game if you look at the grand scheme. AND, she is always described as one of the strongests people in Norse Islands.
Again, this is the first game. The narratige is clearly going towards something much bigger and Faye is an active part of it. We dont even know her real motivation to make Kratos go through all of this. Did she love him? Did she just want to avenge the Giants? Was she using Kratos all along? IMO, we are going to see her in one of the sequels.
About underrepresentation... do you realize there really isnt a huge story cast in the game, right? It is basically Kratos and Atreus (protagonists), Freya (most important support character), Baldur (the antagonist) and Mimir (side character). These are the important characters to the plot. They are also mostly based on Norse Mythos, which means Norse female characters have to appear in the game with a minimum of consistency and honesty to Norse mythos (specifically Odin family).
Freya's turn definitely felt ham-fisted and out of context. She was a strong and interesting character prior to this, then on a dime turning into a hysterical pawn, whose only motivation in a story sense, was to motivate Baldur's anger. It robbed her of her agency and character.
It could've been done better, but it wasn't handled well at all.
Not to mention that the game has no other portrayal of female characters, so it definitely stands out as being in poor taste.
The game very much feels like it's from the POV of male characters, made by male developers, which kind of shines through in the portrayal.
It could've been done better, but it wasn't handled well at all.
Not to mention that the game has no other portrayal of female characters, so it definitely stands out as being in poor taste.
The game very much feels like it's from the POV of male characters, made by male developers, which kind of shines through in the portrayal.