Is God of War 2018's treatment towards women problematic? (Spoilers)

[Fredrik]

But your third point specifically, why is it bad optics. Because of the brutality? Isn't that a staple for the series and still prevalent in the reboot and not just reserved to these specific female enemies?

Click to shrink...

First, you really need to play the game to not get far too spoiled! ...if that hasn't already happened.

But yes the brutality is pretty extreme at times and not really surprising to see in this serie. One person got banned trying to push the agenda that there should be no difference for a male gamer if a mistreated/killed character is man or woman since female gamers do terrible things to men in games all the time without problem etc. But I can tell you this... Few could've handled seeing Kratos fight a female "The Stranger" (don't look it up, play the game) the same way. That's just how it is. It wouldn't work. The extremeness in the current state served to exemplify the strength of both Kratos and "The Stranger" though and was somewhat neccessary, and even if there is an imbalance I still think the game has progressed a lot from the previous games.

 

[No42.05W70.2]

Not really.

The dude couldn't feel anything and was driven mad by it.

Click to shrink...

It seems like this really sexist metaphor for an overbearing mother who tries to control her child. It's like a fable about how moms should back off and let their sons be men. Like uh how about letting go of your mommy issues and taking responsibility for your own life..

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

Faye's goals and motivation are incredibly easy... Her goal was to kickstart Ragnarok, to bring the end of the gods. Why? Cause Odin led a campaign to exterminate her people, which he was successful in doing!

Swear people haven't played the game when they claim to have.

Click to shrink...

That's not the kind of motivation I'm talking about. That's like saying that Kratos's goal is to spread the ash of his wife because she told him to. It's a skin deep premise that doesn't give much insight on a character.

Did she do all that because it's all preordained and she's just following her vision, or was she out for revenge? Did she actually love Kratos or was she just manipulating him towards fulfilling her goals? Did she want Kratos and Atreus bond with each other out of care of is it just a happy effect/prerequisite for her quest?

I can speak quite a bit about Freya's doubt and fear. Mimir's wish and need. Even Sindri's hope and regret. I can't with Faye, because she's not a character yet; she's just a story.

 

[Vishmarx]

Did she do all that because it's all preordained and she's just following her vision, or was she out for revenge? Did she actually love Kratos or was she just manipulating him towards fulfilling her goals? Did she want Kratos and Atreus bond with each other out of care of is it just a happy effect/prerequisite for her quest? Was she ever in doubt? Did she regret anything?

Click to shrink...

Ikr. Highly unfortunate the series is cancelled and wel'll never find out.

 

[Bold One]

It seems like this really sexist metaphor for an overbearing mother who tries to control her child. It's like a fable about how moms should back off and let their sons be men. Like uh how about letting go of your mommy issues and taking responsibility for your own life..

Click to shrink...

.....what the hell?

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

Ikr. Highly unfortunate the series is cancelled and wel'll never find out.

Click to shrink...

Oh come on. Look at the whole conversation and you'd see that I actually alluded to sequels and even used words like "as it stands" and "yet". I'm not even criticizing the game; I'm merely talking about Faye's depiction in this game and this game alone.

 

[Dog]

It seems like this really sexist metaphor for an overbearing mother who tries to control her child. It's like a fable about how moms should back off and let their sons be men. Like uh how about letting go of your mommy issues and taking responsibility for your own life..

Click to shrink...

It's not like that at all lol.

 

[No42.05W70.2]

It's not like that at all lol.

Click to shrink...

Thats how I interpreted it. Cory Balrog really resents his mother.

 

[Saint-14]

It seems like this really sexist metaphor for an overbearing mother who tries to control her child. It's like a fable about how moms should back off and let their sons be men. Like uh how about letting go of your mommy issues and taking responsibility for your own life..

Click to shrink...

I don't know what you're on about but overprotective parents isn't something never heard of, not to mention living in an era where everything wants to kill you, Freya being overprotective is also something happened in Norse mythology which what the game is about.

Thats how I interpreted it. Cory Balrog really resents his mother.

Click to shrink...

Dude, what the hell is wrong with you?

 

[Dog]

Thats how I interpreted it. Cory Balrog really resents his mother.

Click to shrink...

OK Dr. Phil.

 

[No42.05W70.2]

I don't know what you're on about but overprotective parents isn't something never heard of, not to mention living in an era where everything wants to kill you, Freya being overprotective is also something happened in Norse mythology which what the game is about.


Dude, what the hell is wrong with you?

Click to shrink...

It reads as a critique of maternal instincts. Mothers are the nurtures. But sometimes nurturing goes too far! Like mommy wants to keep their kids in a bubble, whereas dad believes in sink or swim. it's extremely gendered. And then the way Freya reacts makes her look like a hysterical nut job.

 

[Devil]

It seems like this really sexist metaphor for an overbearing mother who tries to control her child. It's like a fable about how moms should back off and let their sons be men. Like uh how about letting go of your mommy issues and taking responsibility for your own life..

Click to shrink...

That's not really how it was presented. His mother was actually responsible for his misery, lol. The way he acted towards others is still wrong, though.

Apart from that, helicopter parenting is a real thing and can be an issue. There is nothing sexist about it if you show a mother (or a father) behaving like that. There are real world examples of it, it's not some out of date trope.

 

[No42.05W70.2]

That's not really how it was presented. His mother was actually responsible for his misery, lol. The way he acted towards others is still wrong, though.

Apart from that, helicopter parenting is a real thing and can be an issue. There is nothing sexist about it if you show a mother (or a father) behaving like that. There are real world examples of it, it's not some out of date trope.

Click to shrink...

it's a gendered stereotype. They're called tiger moms. Not tiger Dads.

 

[TheCrackedJack]

 

[Yurinka]

I don't see any problem. Valkyries are handled like any other enemy in the game (in fact they are the strongest ones), and Freya like the other NPCs.

All enemies get (or may get) killed in a gory way, and -at least most- NPCs are people with dark stuff. I don't see why they should do something special for female characters.

 

[Devil]

How now

it's a gendered stereotype. They're called tiger moms. Not tiger Dads.

Click to shrink...

Or helicopter parents. Which is gender neutral.

This game is also based on hundreds of years old fables (even if it weren't doesn't really matter cause it still exists). Mothers HAVE been more often taken the part of caring for children, and therefore were more often prone to becoming overprotective while men developed other parenting issues more often. How can it be outright sexist to portray shit that really happened in the past and still happens today? Is the depiction of Kratos not sexist to you, as a distant father who has no idea how to care for a child? He is flawed as a parent, so is Freya. It's not portrayed as "Duh, women, eh?"

 

[Ωλ7XL9]

Freya was a powerful character, she had the emotions of a mother and she portrayed that beautifully. I just don't see any problem with the way the game treats female characters.

 

[Melubas]

I don't agree at all. As others have said the women in God of War are among the strongest and most complex characters in the game. The Valkyries are bad-ass warriors who will kick your ass over and over again, and they're treated just the same as male warriors would be. Atreus's mother and Kratos's wife is clearly very well thought of by both of them, enough to get them to partake in a quest to fulfill her last wish.

Spoiler

And her back story also turns out to be really bad-ass

. Freya is a wonderfully complex character; strong, independent, with a really complicated relationship towards her son. I think her reaction at the end of the game is very believable. You don't have to scour every game for bad representation or a minor lack of inclusiveness, I recognize that it can be a problem in some games but this just seems like a blind grab to create controversy.

 

[No42.05W70.2]

Or helicopter parents. Which is gender neutral.

This game is also based on hundreds of years old fables (even if it weren't doesn't really matter cause it still exists). Mothers HAVE been more often taken the part of caring for children, and therefore were more often prone to becoming overprotective while men developed other parenting issues more often. How can it be outright sexist to portray shit that really happened in the past and still happens today? Is the depiction of Kratos not sexist to you, as a distant father who has no idea how to care for a child? He is flawed as a parent, so is Freya. It's not portrayed as "Duh, women, eh?"

Click to shrink...

The entire game is empathetic towards Kratos because he's the protagonist. He learns to be a loving father where as Freya turns into a psychotic villain. So yeah i agree that the story is very gendered and doesn't treat women well.

 

[Tezza]

What is wrong with people??? Seriously.

Story telling is an art form, and the moment you compromise your creativity because you want to please society, then your product will have no soul.

People are complaining about the representation of women in God of War, yet nobody in that game is represented in a good way, further more there isn't that many characters in the game period. Stop dictating how people should create art, if the story or product is not for you, don't bitch just don't play it.

Maybe try Horizon or Tomb Raider that have strong female leads, and if your unhappy about that, go play Tetris, can't believe this is even a topic.

P.S
The person who said Cory hates his mum, are you kidding me? Go listen to how he speaks about his son, wife, dad and mum, Cory seems like one of the few decent people in this industry full of fake personas (media & dev side).

 

[Fredrik]

Did she do all that because it's all preordained and she's just following her vision, or was she out for revenge? Did she actually love Kratos or was she just manipulating him towards fulfilling her goals? Did she want Kratos and Atreus bond with each other out of care of is it just a happy effect/prerequisite for her quest? Was she ever in doubt? Did she regret anything?

Click to shrink...

"Is Mario unaware that Peach is in another castle or does he willingly go there knowing she won't be there and just use the save the princess card as an excuse to get to stomp more Gombas and put his flag on the castle?"
;)

Interesting ideas but I'm sure we'll get to know eventually how deep and multi layered the characters actually are, creating new alternate motives may be fun but I trust that the devs will tell us the true story eventually, the way I see it GoW is just the starting point of this new variation of the GoW story.

 

[Kain]

The entire game is empathetic towards Kratos because he's the protagonist. He learns to be a loving father where as Freya turns into a psychotic villain. So yeah i agree that the story is very gendered and doesn't treat women well.

Click to shrink...

Freya is not a psychotic villain, she's a desperate abused mother. Baldr is the psychotic villain. Did you play the game or what? What the fuck

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

"Is Mario unaware that Peace is in another castle or does he willingly go there knowing she won't be there and just use the save the princess card as an excuse to get to stomp more Gombas and put his flag on the castle?"
;)

Interesting ideas but I'm sure we'll get to know eventually how deep and multi layered the characters actually are, creating new alternate motives may be fun but I trust that the devs will tell us the true story eventually, the way I see it GoW is just the starting point of this new variation of the GoW story.

Click to shrink...

And Mario is barely a character in that game; that's my whole point! He's a competent mascot and a serviceable player stand-in in a game that has barebones plot to begin with. However, I think few would go around and claim that Mario is a good male representation, or that he's well-written, at least in the context of the game's narrative.

I also agree that this is most likely something that would be clarified in a sequel eventually, but this conversation started because quite a number people argue that Faye is already a well-realized character even now, in this game, and I disagree with that.

 

[No42.05W70.2]

Freya is not a psychotic villain, she's a desperate abused mother. Baldr is the psychotic villain. Did you play the game or what? What the fuck

Click to shrink...

She turns into a villain at the end of the game.... You fight her just like Gaia in GoW3.

 

[Noob Pilot]

I am honestly surprised to know that people had issues with GOW 2018 in this regard.

I find that the narrative places alot of focus on the importance of women in the lives of the protagonists and antagonists. The Valkyries are literally the strongest in characters in the story to the point where they had to be locked up just cause.

The death of Faye is the main driving motivation for the journey our protagonists take. Kratos is even using his wife's axe not just as a momento but because it is a powerful weapon.

Freya's decisions made such an impact on our antogonist that it drove him insane. The moment where she offers her life? Even Kratos admits that he himself would do the same.

I don't see the problem you speak of here OP. The points you bring up are more related to how the writers want the story to unfold.

 

[Stinkinmushroom]

Click to shrink...

lol

 

[Deleted member 4976]

I didn't have this take on the game, and thought it was more so about a parent's love for their child, and contrasts/compares this with Kratos, but I'm also not a woman, so I fully acknowledge that it could've gone completely over my head, and defer to wiser people in this regard.

She turns into a villain at the end of the game.... You fight her just like Gaia in GoW3.

Click to shrink...

You fight her but she does not become a villain. Her actions aren't portrayed as evil, nor even understood by the two protagonists as such. Being an adversary doesn't make you a villain.

 

[Kiekura]

She turns into a villain at the end of the game.... You fight her just like Gaia in GoW3.

Click to shrink...

No you don't fight her. She is just trying to stop you fighting his son and killing him. He doesn't directly fight you and she doesn't turn to villain.

 

[Bold One]

She turns into a villain at the end of the game.... You fight her just like Gaia in GoW3.

Click to shrink...

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

You fight her but she does not become a villain. Her actions aren't portrayed as evil, nor even understood by the two protagonists as such. Being an adversary doesn't make you a villain.

Click to shrink...

I don't think she even actively fought Kratos, didn't she? Just continuously attempting to break the fight between him and Baldur (through violence, but still).

 

[Fredrik]

And Mario is barely a character in that game; that's my whole point! I think few would go around and claim that Mario is a good male representation, or that he's well-written. He's a competent mascot and a serviceable player stand-in in a game that has barebones plot to begin with.

I also agree that this is most likely something that would be clarified in a sequel eventually, but this conversation started because quite a number people argue that Faye is already a well-realized character even now, in this game, and I disagree with that.

Click to shrink...

Just toying with you just thought the alternate motives was taking things a bit far :)
I fully agree that there is more to tell, that's what I'm hoping for in sequels, I enjoyed this game maybe 70% for the gameplay and the rest for the story telling.

 

[Kain]

She turns into a villain at the end of the game.... You fight her just like Gaia in GoW3.

Click to shrink...

You do fight her but she is not a villain. Freya is never painted as a villain. She's a suffering mother.

 

[Deleted member 4976]

I don't think she even actively fought Kratos, didn't she? Just continuously attempting to break the fight between him and Baldur (through violence, but still).

Click to shrink...

No, not directly. And she's prevented by Odin from even doing so at the time (cause Odins a piece of shit).

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

Thats how I interpreted it. Cory Balrog really resents his mother.

Click to shrink...

thats one heck of a non sequitur

 

[GymWolf86]

Maybe i'm an insensible motherfucker but i don't see a problem with female characters in gow.

Most of them are pretty powerfull or important to the plot and the valkirye are far more badass than baldur imho.

 

[MONSTER]

That's not quite true. The dwarf brothers are treated well. Kratos and Atreus are treated well. Hell, it's arguable that Even a severed head is treated better than any of the women in this game.

Click to shrink...

You clearly did not play the game

 

[tiebreaker]

It seems like it has to be bad ass perfect female characters to be considered good representation.

 

[Devil]

The entire game is empathetic towards Kratos because he's the protagonist. He learns to be a loving father where as Freya turns into a psychotic villain. So yeah i agree that the story is very gendered and doesn't treat women well.

Click to shrink...

Kratos had the exact same "psychotic" reaction in the original trilogy. He is just at a different stage of character development. How the fuck can you just make it so easy for yourself and just act as if it's some kind of logical comparison? Freya's character is at a point where it is very fitting for her to go slightly mad. Kratos was already there for YEARS and us slowly developing away from it. He could've been a lost case forever mad, it still wouldn't be sexist.

A flaw in a female character is now on principle sexist, smh. But the flawless mother of Atreus is also a "trope" and sexist because she is too good. Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

 

[MONSTER]

The entire game is empathetic towards Kratos because he's the protagonist. He learns to be a loving father where as Freya turns into a psychotic villain. So yeah i agree that the story is very gendered and doesn't treat women well.

Click to shrink...

Freya is a villain? Wow you must've played a completely different game than mine!

 

[Nightengale]

Thats how I interpreted it. Cory Balrog really resents his mother.

Click to shrink...

 

[modiz]

nvm user above already posted this.

 

[Deleted member 4976]

Thats how I interpreted it. Cory Balrog really resents his mother.

Click to shrink...

Do you realize how fucked up of a post this is?

 

[No42.05W70.2]

You do fight her but she is not a villain. Freya is never painted as a villain. She's a suffering mother.

Click to shrink...

Um at the end she says she's going to do everything in her power to kill you as I recall

 

[Sande]

I am honestly surprised to know that people had issues with GOW 2018 in this regard.

I find that the narrative places alot of focus on the importance of women in the lives of the protagonists and antagonists. The Valkyries are literally the strongest in characters in the story to the point where they had to be locked up just cause.

The death of Faye is the main driving motivation for the journey our protagonists take. Kratos is even using his wife's axe not just as a momento but because it is a powerful weapon.

Freya's decisions made such an impact on our antogonist that it drove him insane. The moment where she offers her life? Even Kratos admits that he himself would do the same.

I don't see the problem you speak of here OP. The points you bring up are more related to how the writers want the story to unfold.

Click to shrink...

Women being powerful and influential doesn't by itself make them good characters.

Faye, for all her strengths, is ultimately nothing more than Kratos' and Atreus' backstory.

Similarly Freya is largely the same for Baldur, although she does have more of presence here and I would say she's the one decent female character in the game.

Valkyries, for the almighty warriors they are, effectively end up being damsels in distress. I wouldn't necessarily call it a problem given the context, but they're definitely not good characters.

 

[arbitrary function]

Well I find the existence of this game "problematic". It's a male power fantasy, and just looking at the cover makes me tired. I find it funny that there needs to be a discussion about whether details in the story are "problematic" when the whole game is emblematic of most things that are wrong with this industry.

 

[GymWolf86]

Is this dlc with freya as a villain already available in europe? Price tag?

 

[OVOCanadaBooth]

No one has talked about the treatment of women in this game, because it's legitimately not an issue...
God Of War's story wasn't trying to make a statement about women in today's climate, it was trying to tell you about who these women were as individuals.

Freya has her own personal motives. The Valkyries tell you their backstory & experiences and why they do what they do. We even get an idea of who the dead mother was as a person through the small dialogue throughout the game.
When Freya was blinded by love for her son to the point where she'd allow him to take her life, I didn't see a "woman". I saw a parent.
The game literally shows you an entire argument between Freya & her son, to give you understanding of where she's coming from.

I don't understand where Abby is coming from at all.
Imagine saying a female character is bad, because the way she's written doesn't meet your "how a women should be treated/how a woman should act" quota.

Can't relate.

 

[Deleted member 4976]

Well I find the existence of this game "problematic". It's a male power fantasy, and just looking at the cover makes me tired. I find it funny that there needs to be a discussion about whether details in the story are "problematic" when the whole game is emblematic of most things that are wrong with this industry.

Click to shrink...

Are you sure you didn't mean to make this post in some anime game thread?

 

[Thirty7ven]

Unfortunate that it has come to this.

 

[aiswyda]

Let me say that I didn't play GOW. I watched my SO play and although I watched most of the story beats didn't happen to see everything. This is just based off my experience watching that. I really enjoyed a lot of it but it's treatment of women left me feeling a little icky sometimes.

I think people in this thread are too focused on discussing the character of the women. For me, that wasn't the issue. It's the violence towards women.

Kratos's wife (sorry I'm bad at names)? Dead. Not from murder IIRC but still she's dead right out the gates.
Valkyries? Kill em all. Pretty brutally from what I saw (cool fights though)
Freya? Choked by her own son.

From what I saw, freya and kratos' wife seemed like interesting enough characters. But it sucked that a decent amount of time there was a woman mentioned or on screen she was dead or being victimized.

Also placing the two women characters essential to the plot in a position where their goals and ideas revolve around men is not great in a vacuum. Makes sense in contenxt but :/ in a vacuuum.