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Megatron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,445
I have been slowly making my way through Giant Bomb's game of the year podcasts. Today I started up episode 2 where they talk about God of War for the first 34 minutes. Abby brought up a point that I had never considered before: This game doesn't treat women well. Consider that there are basically three women (or groups of women) in the game. The first woman is Kratos's wife/ Atreus's mother who's dead when the game starts. The wife is dead, we never see her, and rarely ever hear her name. She exists only to motivate the two surviving male characters to embark on a quest.

The next woman is Freya, who starts out as a very cool character, until we find out that she's the mother of the main villain of the game, Balder, who's furious at her for making him immortal. In the game's final confrontation, Freya gives Balder permission to kill her. Balder strangles his mother, intent on murdering her while she says 'I love you' to him over and over. Freya doesn't fight back and Kratos grabs Balder and kills him. Freya cradles Balder's corpse and calls him 'my dear sweet boy' and then tells Kratos 'I will rain down every violation imaginable upon you.' When Atreus points out that Kratos saved her life, she answers 'He robbed me of everything!'


This video should run at the right time, if it doesn't for you, put it at 20:07.

Finally we have the Valkyrie. Female warriors who have been corrupted by Odin. You spend the game hunting each one down, killing their bodies, ripping off their wings, and then having their spirits leave their bodies and thank you for it. You can say they have a story reason to justify this, but the optics are bad here.

Taken on their own, maybe none of these are that bad, but all three together, combined with the fact that there aren't any other women in the game, and this seems like a bad look. And perhaps more disturbing, why isn't anyone talking about this? This game is winning game of the year awards everywhere, including likely, here. Everyone wants to talk about the game, but nobody wants to talk about the way it treats women? And this isn't an attack on the game. I LOVE the game. I haven't submitted my game of the year list yet, but I've had this hovering at the top spot. But I think despite my love for this game, this might be worth talking about.
 

Lant_War

Classic Anus Game
The Fallen
Jul 14, 2018
23,577
Agreed with Freya, but

Finally we have the Valkyrie. Female warriors who have been corrupted by Odin. You spend the game hunting each one down, killing their bodies, ripping off their wings, and then having their spirits leave their bodies and thank you for it. You can say they have a story reason to justify this, but the optics are bad here.
They're literally amongst the strongest beings in the game's world. I fail to see what about this is problematic.

And about Faye, I think they actively avoided talking about her because she'll become a lot more important in the sequels and they're saving her for that
 

Manu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,167
Buenos Aires, Argentina
I honestly think the Freya issue is complicated and there was gonna be some level of controversy no matter what.

Imagine if Kratos had just watched while Baldur killed his mother and did nothing. I don't think everyone would be just okay with that just because it was her wish.
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
Kratos's wife being fridged is a little lame, if only because it's such a common thing to have happen to female characters, but it's not the worst thing. I found some of the late game revelations about her to be interesting at least, and I'm looking forward to seeing where the next game goes with it.

I think Freya is a great character. She's not reduced to "just a mom". She has her own personality and complexity. Her motherhood is also important in conjunction with Kratos's fatherhood. The whole game is about being a parent, so it made sense to have them bounce off each other. It was very compelling to me to see these two parents struggle with their failures and how they'd failed theire children and how they tried to fix it.
 

Gilver

Banned
Nov 14, 2018
3,725
Costa Rica
I think its a stretch, the Valkyries are awesome and justified, Freya is inconsistent (not a great character) but is treated with somewhat respect and Faye is like the most important character by the end of the game. Everyone in the God of War universe either wants to die (Mimir) or tries to kill Kratos (dead). Death and violence is just normalized in the game/universe so suggesting misogyny when they obviously tried to stray away from the past games which where really bad is kinda a stretch to me.
 

Popetita

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,957
TX|PR
I don't think it is a bad look at all and that is why no one is talking out it.

The Valkyries are just a sidequest and they fit the lore for the purpose.

The mom is not bad just because she's absent. She is the thing that motivates everyone. I think the game portrayed her as a strong woman that could be on par with Kratos if nit above him in many aspects.

Freya, well you are sort of dismissing her kind acts and other things she did earlier. She did go a bit insane at the end but that was just the end of this part of the journey. We dont3know what the future brings.

I think you may be looking a bit too much into it and is a bit of outrage. I get that the word gets thrown around so much but you use the word disturbing because more people are not talking about it and that seems a bit much.
 

H.Cornerstone

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,719
I am not going to agree for 3 reasons

1. At the end of the game you realize Faye is smarter than everyone. She had been really pulling Kratos strings all along and you realize there is much more to her story.
2. They didn't explicitly state this in the game, but Freya is over protective of Baldr because A. He was the only thing she was fond of through her marriage with Odin. B. Baldr's death is one of the catalysts for Ragnarok, which is why she made him immortal (this is hinted at in the game when the snow starts falling after you kill him.)
3. The Valkyries are really the most video gamey thing about the game. Just challenges for you to complete. They at least made it make sense in the story why they need to be defeated.
 
OP
OP
Megatron

Megatron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,445
Presumably the OP is wondering why more people aren't talking about it, since the game came out montsh ago and this is the first time they have seen that take.

Right. I did a search before I posted and didn't see this topic posted, and the episode has been live for a week. I just heard it today and wanted to talk about it, I'm surprised this thread didn't exist already.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
I think it's inaccurate to say that Atreus's mother exists only as motivation for Kratos and Atreus. You learn quite a bit about her through them, and their love and admiration for her is obvious from their interactions and certain scenes (like when Kratos goes into the pillar of light, for example). Also there are some important revelations about her at the end of the narrative that make her role even more important.

Freya is meant to contrast with Kratos, and I don't really see how she is treated poorly by the narrative. She's by far the most interesting and well-developed character in the game. Her relationship with Balder and reaction to his death is fitting, both with the mythology the game is inspired by and the themes presented in the game itself.

As for violence against the Valkyries, Kratos is equally violent against all adversaries. An alternative take would be that the valkyries are by far the most challenging and impressive enemies in the game. I find the level of brutality Kratos shows them unnecessary, but I feel that way about his brutality in general and don't think that the violence is gendered in any way (as opposed to the original trilogy, which absolutely has those moments).
 

Qwark

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,027
People are talking about it though

Like Giant Bomb

The place you were listening to

I know I've seen topics on Era with almost the same premise as well, I'll see if I can find some.

Edit: Actually, I'm having trouble finding the threads now and it's really not important.
 
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Chainshada

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,639
I think they needed to be as vague as possible with Faye for the ending to have the impact it did. Looking forward to what they do with Freya in the sequel, I get the feeling she's going to be a lot more complex than "You killed my son!", I'm hoping she's a mid-game boss that returns late game around the same time as the trip to Helheim as a reluctant ally, her caring/protective nature pulls through trying to save Kratos, but he dies anyway. Give me that 3rd game with Foster-mom Freya and Teenage Atreus as she teaches him magic.
 

Riderz1337

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,913
Right. I did a search before I posted and didn't see this topic posted, and the episode has been live for a week. I just heard it today and wanted to talk about it, I'm surprised this thread didn't exist already.
Why do I feel like it did though? I swear just last week someone posted a thread about this with the exact same video from Giant Bomb
 

clickKunst

Member
Dec 18, 2017
787
Melbourne, Australia
Since GOWIII, the series has had this weird Oedipus vibe. If I recall correctly, the third games ends with a POV perspective of Kratos repeatedly punching the metaphorical equivalent of a father (Zeus) in the face to protect the metaphorical equivalent of the Madonna. I'll let you know upfront that I'm not concerned whether it's problematic or not though.
 

sph3re

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
8,403
Freya is a badass who knows some powerful magic and saved Atreus from death. Also, Baldur is literally all she has after her exile and Kratos killed him. She's understandably upset. Imagine Kratos' reaction if Atreus was killed.

The Valkyries are the toughest boss fights in the game. More importantly though, after beating the final Valkyrie, it's revealed that Freya was the Queen of the Valkyries. So imagine beating the Valkyries--9 grueling fights and several hours later--then finding out you killed their queen's only son.

With all due respect, I disagree. Freya and the Valkyries are absolute badasses.
 

everyer

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,242
I feel so disgusting on all these threads.

I am a female player. I hate those who is not a female but always try to "defend" or pretend to make the voice heard and saying it is for women or try to give some women's view.

STOP THAT!

We female players don't care how many female characters in the game or how many female enemies in the game. We love the game itself. But you, are you a female player? If no please SHUT UP!!!
 
OP
OP
Megatron

Megatron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,445
I don't think the game treats anyone well.

That's not quite true. The dwarf brothers are treated well. Kratos and Atreus are treated well. Hell, it's arguable that Even a severed head is treated better than any of the women in this game.

I feel so disgusting on all these threads.

I am a female player. I hate those who is not a female but always try to "defend" or pretend to make the voice heard and saying it is for women or try to give some women's view.

STOP THAT!

We female players don't care how many female characters in the game or how many female enemies in the game. We love the game itself. But you, are you a female player? If no please SHUT UP!!!

Your opinion here is welcome and appreciated, but you don't speak for all women. As mentioned the inspiration for the thread came when Abby pointed this out and said that she was uncomfortable with it.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
The game doesn't really treat anyone well, but Faye is pretty much the only character in the game who is consistently spoken of in a positive and noble light, and Freya is also one of the more revered characters in the game, with magical abilities, healing properties, a caring nature and someone who is later revealed to be the true Queen of the Valkyries (above even Sigrun), the strongest and best warriors in all of Norse mythology.

Add to that, Freya is depicted in a far less odious manner than the male characters or villains in the game, like Baldr, Odin, Modi, Magni and Thor. Unlike the others who have only maniacal self-interests and act in heinous ways only for selfish reasons, Freya really only does wrong out of a misplaced sense of love and protectionism for her son. Unlike the male characters in the game, she is actually decent and caring, albeit to a blinding degree.

Finally, with respect to the Valkyries, I see that as a positive not a negative. On the one hand you can't ask games to treat women as equally strong or powerful characters, and then on the other hand criticise them for having male characters fight and kill those strong female warriors. Ultimately the Valkyries represent the most powerful warriors or soldiers in all of Norse mythos, and in the game itself, they have been trapped by Odin. It makes sense you would fight and ultimately free them from Odins control.
 
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Oct 28, 2017
352
I don't know if I fully agree with the Faye part . I remember her being referenced a whole lot throughout the story and given how things turned out she wasn't a passive plot point that was turned aside within 5 mins of the game starting.

Also I wish I could make threads because if you ask me Freya was the villain of the story not Baldur. Please don't attack me. Lol
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,847
Since GOWIII, the series has had this weird Oedipus vibe. If I recall correctly, the third games ends with a POV perspective of Kratos repeatedly punching the metaphorical equivalent of a father (Zeus) in the face to protect the metaphorical equivalent of the Madonna. I'll let you know upfront that I'm not concerned whether it's problematic or not though.
That's not metaphorical. Zeus is his literal father. He also killed his mother because Zeus turned her into a monster to keep some secrets. And he wasn't protecting anyone at that point. He was completing his revenge by beating Zeus to death with the power of hope.

We came in midway through Freya's story (at her lowest point) and they're building to her comeback. Kratos also mentions that he would've done the exact same thing had Atreus needed to strangle him to death
And apparently that's gonna happen given the ending
 
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everyer

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,242
User Banned (1 week): Trying to shutdown discussion and dismissing concerns of the representation of women over multiple posts.
Shame on you OP and all those who made these hilarious threads. Disgusting as hell.

I never think there is any difference between male or female. We female players killed so many male enemies in our gaming libraries so what??

I don't want to see these stupid threads judging about GOW or TLOU2 for women's right any more. Please. If you really want to be a female player just castrate off yourself!
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,210
Greater Vancouver
Because large swaths of games media are still shit when it comes to talking about games critically in a way beyond "the framerate is bad," and gamers (particularly of the straight white dude variety) are constantly resilient and hostile to when outlets talk about social issues.

This is why it matters to have diverse voices. Giant Bomb is still a room full of white dudes aside from Abby and Jan, even with afew members of the staff actively trying to highlight other voices and bring these topics to light. Games media is still dominated by white dudes. Outlets like Waypoint which choose to focus on the social and cultural aspect of games don't get the exposure in this industry unlike an outlet posting rumors about a console two years away maybe having one chipset vs. a slightly older chipset. And hey, that reporting is fun to talk about too, but let's be fucking real, that shit isn't going to change my opinion on whether a game treats marginalized people like shit or not.


There is a difference between how fridging women through maliciousness and violence is different than a game like God or War is centrally about grieving the loss of a mother figure. But God of War is still colored by the half-dozen games before it treating women like garbage. The new game may be a step up, but that baggage is still there.

This is an industry that still masturbates over grieving the corpses of dead women, and yes, even God of War for all its attempts at gravitas, successful or otherwise, is still part of that conversation.
 

Salty Rice

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,612
Pancake City
It isnt. In a established world where everyone gets treated poorly its easy to cherry pick and concentrate only on the women.

If anything women are the strongest and most important characters in the game.
 

Kevers

The Fallen
Oct 29, 2017
14,567
Syracuse, NY
I didn't understand the Freya part of the conversation, at no point in the story is she shown to be a weak woman who needs Kratos to help her out. She's incredibly powerful and independent and was understandably upset Kratos killed her son, even if he was going to kill her. She's going to go on to be one of Kratos' toughest foes judging by all the other valkyrie fights too.

I understand the issue with Faye but that's more to building the mystery of Kratos' new life and eventually unlocking the mystery behind Atreus and I'm sure she'll have a much bigger role in future games.
 

everyer

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,242
That's not quite true. The dwarf brothers are treated well. Kratos and Atreus are treated well. Hell, it's arguable that Even a severed head is treated better than any of the women in this game.



Your opinion here is welcome and appreciated, but you don't speak for all women. As mentioned the inspiration for the thread came when Abby pointed this out and said that she was uncomfortable with it.


Then the talk should between Abby and me.

What the hell about you MALE guys? ARE YOU FEMALE?
 

kaishek

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,144
Texas
I feel so disgusting on all these threads.

I am a female player. I hate those who is not a female but always try to "defend" or pretend to make the voice heard and saying it is for women or try to give some women's view.

STOP THAT!

We female players don't care how many female characters in the game or how many female enemies in the game. We love the game itself. But you, are you a female player? If no please SHUT UP!!!

I disagree with the OP but this post is pretty much a hamfisted attempt to shut down discussion. You don't get the only say, sorry, representation of females and general misogyny in media has been prevalent for so long that people will be skeptical of everything for a while.
 

Fat4all

Woke up, got a money tag, swears a lot
Member
Oct 25, 2017
92,830
here
I don't want to see these stupid threads judging about GOW or TLOU2 for women's right any more. Please. If you really want to be a female player just castrate off yourself!
lH1wtel.jpg
 

Sande

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,981
Yeah, I don't think any of those 3 are problematic in isolation, but when put together they're all there is... it's not great.
 

Manu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,167
Buenos Aires, Argentina
That's not quite true. The dwarf brothers are treated well. Kratos and Atreus are treated well. Hell, it's arguable that Even a severed head is treated better than any of the women in this game.
How is Faye mistreated exactly, other than the fact that she died before the game starts? Every single character speaks of her with nothing but fondness and affection.

She's also directly responsible for setting the events of the game in motion as a long term game and as a part of her plan. It's not like her death happens on screen for shock value and causes Kratos to go on a revenge quest. He's following her will.
 

everyer

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,242
I disagree with the OP but this post is pretty much a hamfisted attempt to shut down discussion. You don't get the only say, sorry, representation of females and general misogyny in media has been prevalent for so long that people will be skeptical of everything for a while.

The most disgusting things are 95% trailers or threads talking about that are created by MALE what the hell wrong with the world?

We female players never feel sorry for we are too brutal to treat MALE enemies in games so why you the opposite have the rights to complain that?
 

ByWatterson

▲ Legend ▲
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,302
No. The only virtuous adult in the game is the late mother. Kratos and Freya are two sides of the same coin: parents willing to be horrible for their children.

This dialogue is a search for controversy where there is none.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
The most problematic aspect of the game in regards to women is not having enough of them. Freya isnt an awful or bad character but she's ultimately the only one worth anything in terms of character development. Kratos wife was literally non existent and the valkyries were nothing but side characters.
 

Revolsin

Usage of alt-account.
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,373
GoW4's representation of women is easily some of the most respectful I've seen in gaming, making each one strong with their own wills.

We can't really start to pick on every representation of women that doesn't put them in an expressly positive light all the time. That wouldn't even make sense in a world like GoW's, where basically everyone goes through negative stuff constantly.
 

RestEerie

Banned
Aug 20, 2018
13,618
That's not quite true. The dwarf brothers are treated well. Kratos and Atreus are treated well. Hell, it's arguable that Even a severed head is treated better than any of the women in this game.

if by 'well', you mean they have a spoken role, then sure, you do you.

Literally nothing was spoken in negative light for Faye. She's the kind mother, the emotional support for kratos and the pillar of the family. she's the guardian of the giants and essentially the instigator of the entire main quest.

Kratos' first wife, she's literally just there so that she can be killed for kratos rage to happen..that i agree.

Faye though is different. It's her actions that Kratos and Atreus's quest happened.

Context is key.
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,847
Is there anyone in God of War 2018 who gets treated well?

Odin's a monster, Brok's all surly and blue, Sindri's a germaphobe who almost gets eaten, Mimir was tortured for years and then decapitated, Kratos is tired, Atreus feels like he doesn't have Kratos' approval, Freya's basically cursed and so are the Valykries, Baldur has been numbed forever, Magni's dead, Modi got beat down by his own father, and Faye's dead
 

Coi

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,808
I played the game with my girlfriend. She loved Freja and cried with her story, and loved how respected and powerful were the Valkyries.
I think she has more rights to make an opinion about the female representation on God of War, so I need to disagree with you, OP.
 

Knight613

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,767
San Francisco
Is there anyone in God of War 2018 who gets treated well?

Odin's a monster, Brok's all surly and blue, Sindri's a germaphobe who almost gets eaten, Mimir was tortured for years and then decapitated, Kratos is tired, Atreus feels like he doesn't have Kratos' approval, Freya's basically cursed and so are the Valykries, Baldur has been numbed forever, Magni's dead, Modi got beat down by his own father, and Faye's dead
Thor got to look cool.
 

Manu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,167
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Is there anyone in God of War 2018 who gets treated well?

Odin's a monster, Brok's all surly and blue, Sindri's a germaphobe who almost gets eaten, Mimir was tortured for years and then decapitated, Kratos is tired, Atreus feels like he doesn't have Kratos' approval, Freya's basically cursed and so are the Valykries, Baldur has been numbed forever, Magni's dead, Modi got beat down by his own father, and Faye's dead
Atreus also gets sick and almost dies at one point. No one got off easy.
 

Kevers

The Fallen
Oct 29, 2017
14,567
Syracuse, NY
I feel so disgusting on all these threads.

I am a female player. I hate those who is not a female but always try to "defend" or pretend to make the voice heard and saying it is for women or try to give some women's view.

STOP THAT!

We female players don't care how many female characters in the game or how many female enemies in the game. We love the game itself. But you, are you a female player? If no please SHUT UP!!!
Shame on you OP and all those who made these hilarious threads. Disgusting as hell.

I never think there is any difference between male or female. We female players killed so many male enemies in our gaming libraries so what??

I don't want to see these stupid threads judging about GOW or TLOU2 for women's right any more. Please. If you really want to be a female player just castrate off yourself!
Then the talk should between Abby and me.

What the hell about you MALE guys? ARE YOU FEMALE?
The most disgusting things are 95% trailers or threads talking about that are created by MALE what the hell wrong with the world?

We female players never feel sorry for we are too brutal to treat MALE enemies in games so why you the opposite have the rights to complain that?

What the hell?
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,718
I'd like for the series to turn the whole dead wife trope on its head and bring Faye back in as a permanent major player. The ending was hopefully the beginning of such a thing. We already had dead Kratos wife in the old series "pushing"(obviosuly Faye ends up being much more direct) him to do stuff, don't need it again.