Is #BringBackNationalDex dying on social media?

[NHarmonic.]

Not really the time but more of the energy, vibes. I guess I'm speaking in tounges now

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You're acting like people wasted so much time and energy with the hashtag, when most people (the normal ones, not the deranged harasser fuckers) just scrolled down fb or twitter, put a comment and was done with it. Maybe discussed it on forums or with friends.


In my case i discussed it a lot here because i like the IP, and my opinion was that the defense force was actually detrimental to the games, because GF never listened to criticism and finally people were caring enough to tell them what was wrong with the games... In the end they still got the easy way out, with the free PR and damage control from the fandom, and the probably record breaking future sales of this.

 

[Mekanos]

Pokemon is basically a victim of its own success. They need to keep games coming damn near yearly now to stay on track with merchandise and anime marketing. I don't see major changes happening as long as that holds true.

 

[Wamb0wneD]

It's almost like people aren't upset at others being upset, but rather at how obnoxious they were being.

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There has definetly been a trend to silence any form of criticism by calling people disappointed by some decisions gamefreak has made as childish, toxic, obnoxious and so on.

I don't even have Twitter, but I can see how some people went overboard with their behaviour. That won't make me stop saying that GFs reasoning for cutting Pokemon and how they "announced" it, paired with the fact they sold people Pokebank on a promise for years that they now broke, is kinda shitty.

 

[rustyphish]

That's not why the "Bring Back national Dex" brigade has been called toxic, and you know it.

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I don't know it. People in this very thread said it "should've never existed in the first place" and was only for people who have "nothing better to do with their time".

Many, many people have lumped everyone in to the "it's toxic" group because they believe any criticism of the game is useless and/or toxic.

 

[Deleted member 4093]

"Truly shows how people just like to waste their times doing stuff because they're bored or nothing better to do."

You are being completely dismissive of why they would want to participate in the criticism of the game.

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I understand why they did it but this game seemed like it was already close to being done. Yeah maybe the next game they bring it back but I honestly didn't see them just putting them in a game due to design limitations they already gave themselves. If its for the next game yeah it makes more sense.

thats my 2 cents

 

[rustyphish]

There has definetly been a trend to silence any form of criticism by calling people disappointed by some decisions gamefreak has made as childish, toxic, obnoxious and so on.

I don't even have Twitter, but I can see how some people went overboard with their behaviour. That won't make me stop saying that their reasoning for cutting Pokemon and how they "announced" it, paired with the fact they sold people Pokebank on a promise for years that they now broke, is kinda shitty.

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You don't even have to go to twitter to see this, this very thread has engaged in that

 

[Jonneh]

One of the problems was Pokémon Company weren't combating negativity with positivity, allowing one side to dominate the conversation. I think the entire movement has been dying since the reveal of new Pokémon like Alcremie, today even more so as these new aspects are fresh in our minds.

This chart also applies. People were angry but eventually they've come to accept it, or at least some have.

 

[Serif]

If the game is gonna sell well regardless of how many people aren't gonna buy it, wouldn't a persistent social media hashtag be a good way of effecting criticism and getting feedback then? GF is not a small indie studio where people boycotting the game would affect their bottom line, but they did end up responding to the concerns.

I don't understand the sheer condescension.

 

[rustyphish]

I understand why they did it but this game seemed like it was already close to being done. Yeah maybe the next game they bring it back but I honestly didn't see them just putting them in a game due to design limitations they already gave themselves. If its for the next game yeah it makes more sense.

thats my 2 cents

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I don't think you understand my issue, it's not with your stance on "should pokemon be in or not", it's with you being a bit of a dick towards people who's opinions differ from yours.

 

[NHarmonic.]

That's not why the "Bring Back national Dex" brigade has been called toxic, and you know it.

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Oh yes, the whole "a certain part of X fandom is deranged, so the entire fandom is". The perfect way to dismiss criticism to the IP.

 

[halcali]

The hashtag was never going to influence GF's development of SwSh.
I'm just observing a growing trend of "screw the National Dex! Cut those 2nd / 5th gen crappy PKMN and send em back on a leaky inflatable Lapras!!"

 

[Horohorohoro]

I don't understand the sheer condescension.

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It makes people feel like they have the moral high ground.

 

[rustyphish]

It makes people feel like they have the moral high ground.

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^^^

 

[Orion]

Everyone's probably too busy playing GOTY Fire Emblem: Three Houses.

 

[Porygon]

Are those franchises that for 23 years had reappearing fighters in every single game and that promoted their brand with the "gonna fight them all" tagline?

If not, it's not really a good comparison.

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OK, so Pokémon's mistake was not taking out Pokémon since the beginning and do it when things got extremely difficult due the amount of playable characters exceeding 800?

Also, blame the US for that tagline, in Japan the tagline is "Get Pokémon!" besides you can't catch em all on every single game, you need to import to the Bank and back to the game.

Seems like a false equivalency when the expectations have been set differently for the Pokemon mainline series. No one is asking for every single Pokemon in Pokken.

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Why should we expect a game with 800+ playable characters to keep having them when a fighting game can barely handle 20 at launch?

I mean sure, if they sell a service that allows you to store fighters from past games but arbitrarily lock you out of transferring those fighters into future games, fine. This isn't like a fighting game though lol

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If Pokémon Home didn't exist would have made things better?

 

[Deleted member 249]

I don't know it. People in this very thread said it "should've never existed in the first place" and was only for people who have "nothing better to do with their time".

Many, many people have lumped everyone in to the "it's toxic" group because they believe any criticism of the game is useless and/or toxic.

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It's been called toxic because people were behaving ridiculously toxic. Death threats, making a fake account to accuse Masuda of rape and sexual harassment, constantly calling the developers lazy, and so on and on and on.
There's a valid argument to be made, but it got lost long ago when those who go overboard, no matter how few, went overboard.

There has definetly been a trend to silence any form of criticism by calling people disappointed by some decisions gamefreak has made as childish, toxic, obnoxious and so on.

I don't even have Twitter, but I can see how some people went overboard with their behaviour. That won't make me stop saying that GFs reasoning for cutting Pokemon and how they "announced" it, paired with the fact they sold people Pokebank on a promise for years that they now broke, is kinda shitty.

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And what about the other way around?
I'm not arguing that Game Freak and TPCi's handling of this wasn't shitty. In fact my initial response as anyone who was frequenting those threads on here knows was actual empathy for people who get burned by this move. But this whole charade lost any standing it had the minute it went to the toxic and vitriolic lengths it eventually ended up going to.

One of the problems was Pokémon Company weren't combating negativity with positivity, allowing one side to dominate the conversation. I think the entire movement has been dying since the reveal of new Pokémon like Alcremie, today even more so as these new aspects are fresh in our minds.

This chart also applies. People were angry but eventually they've come to accept it, or at least some have.

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I don't know what more they could have done to make things "positive" though. They kept trying to post "positive" shit but it kept getting derailed.

 

[Jessie]

I genuinely think there's a group that believes they're entitled to a positive hype cycle without seeing any negative feedback from others. But that goes for any game, console, or digital gaming retailer.

It brings me back to the days of the No Man's Sky trailers, when I kept asking "where's the gameplay???" and people would get fucking livid at me. Then the game came out and it turned out... there wasn't any gameplay.

 

[rustyphish]

OK, so Pokémon's mistake was not taking out Pokémon since the beginning and do it when things got extremely difficult due the amount of playable characters exceeding 800?

Also, blame the US for that tagline, in Japan the tagline is "Get Pokémon!" besides you can't catch em all on every single game, you need to import to the Bank and back to the game.

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The US is not the only place they use that slogan

 

[rustyphish]

It's been called toxic because people were behaving ridiculously toxic. Death threats, making a fake account to accuse Masuda of rape and sexual harassment, constantly calling the developers lazy, and so on and on and on.
There's a valid argument to be made, but it got lost long ago when those who go overboard, no matter how few, went overboard.


And what about the other way around?
I'm not arguing that Game Freak and TPCi's handling of this wasn't shitty. In fact my initial response as anyone who was frequenting those threads on here knows was actual empathy for people who get burned by this move. But this whole charade lost any standing it had the minute it went to the toxic and vitriolic lengths it eventually ended up going to.


I don't know what more they could have done to make things "positive" though. They kept trying to post "positive" shit but it kept getting derailed.

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I love having my entire right to have an opinion invalidated because of some douchebags I've never even met. It's great for discourse.

 

[Deleted member 4093]

I don't think you understand my issue, it's not with your stance on "should pokemon be in or not", it's with you being a bit of a dick towards people who's opinions differ from yours.

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Well I'm sorry. I take that back then.

I still feel based on what gamefreak imposed on themselves as far as the designing this game that it was in my opinion a bit unreasonable for the complaints. Like I said, if its for the next game fine but we dont design the games and really cant go on a "they could do it if they wanted to."

Hopefully its in the next game or in as DLC.

 

[Cronogear]

They got a response out of The Pokemon Company, so it's not like it was meaningless. Feedback is important.

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When their response essentially boils down to "We hear you, we just don't give a shit" it's effectively meaningless.

Frankly, Game Freak and TPC will continue to not give a shit unless it affects their bottom line. They obviously think the complaints are not substantial enough to have any real impact. There's nothing further complaining on social media will do that it hasn't already done.

Vote with your wallet. That's all you can do at this point.

 

[Deleted member 22630]

It's still ongoing. All you have to do is post one image to derail any Pokemon discussion.

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What is a Pokémon Trainer doing in Ocarina of Time./joking

Oh yes, the whole "a certain part of X fandom is deranged, so the entire fandom is". The perfect way to dismiss criticism to the IP.

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The fun thing about that is you can use it in reverse.

 

[Deleted member 10726]

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Not sure where the thread about this pic went (edit: Thank you, person below me!) but given this shows 19 out of 36 people playing MW2 in a group of 833 members, it's not a good example of boycotts being pointless if 47.3% of that sample alone did in fact not play the game.

Though that said, I never really thought that you could reasonably boycott a series as strong as Pokémon since the majority of people buying these games will not really give a shit about only being able to transfer some Pokémon over.

So at least personally, I arrived at the conclusion that I won't buy it and enjoy other Nintendo games on the Switch instead. Big deal that a franchise made for kids which won me over in my childhood doesn't specifically cater to my interests anymore after 20 years.

 

[Exist 2 Inspire]

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So, you posted the "Boycott Modern Warfare 2 Steam Group" picture

This is a picture that you probably saw at least once whenever there was discussion about boycotting some game for whatever reason. And the reason for that is probably pretty obvious if you take a look at the picture and read several words on it. For easier understanding I highlighted the parts...

www.resetera.com

 

[Deleted member 249]

It makes people feel like they have the moral high ground.

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Mate if you think that's what this thread was supposed to be you're being disingenuous. Especially since I actually responded to a lot of your concerns in a post of my own and you proceeded to ignore it (while actually replying to a later post I made).

 

[Mekanos]

It's been called toxic because people were behaving ridiculously toxic. Death threats, making a fake account to accuse Masuda of rape and sexual harassment, constantly calling the developers lazy, and so on and on and on.
There's a valid argument to be made, but it got lost long ago when those who go overboard, no matter how few, went overboard.

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Why is my opinion as an individual consumer less valid because of some jackasses on Twitter? Do you really want to play this game? Toxicity and entitlement is in every single video game fanbase, Pokemon is no different.

 

[rustyphish]

Well I'm sorry. I take that back then.

I still feel based on what gamefreak imposed on themselves as far as the designing this game that it was in my opinion a bit unreasonable for the complaints. Like I said, if its for the next game fine but we dont design the games and really cant go on a "they could do it if they wanted to."

Hopefully its in the next game or in as DLC.

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Again, that's totally fine and valid to feel that way. At no point have I expressed that I have an issue with your opinion nor have I even tried to engage you on it.

Just, have that opinion without saying everyone who's opinion is different is "wasting their time" and is only talking about it because they "have nothing better to do".

 

[Horohorohoro]

It's been called toxic because people were behaving ridiculously toxic. Death threats, making a fake account to accuse Masuda of rape and sexual harassment, constantly calling the developers lazy, and so on and on and on.
There's a valid argument to be made, but it got lost long ago when those who go overboard, no matter how few, went overboard.

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Once again, there was an actual pedophile who was grooming minors on Twitter who had a tweet go viral when he was defending the national dex, but not everyone who was defending the lack of a national dex is him. I don't get this argument. I'm not comparing everyone who's excited about the game to him.

 

[TimeFire]

Everyone's probably too busy playing GOTY Fire Emblem: Three Houses.

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I know you're joking but everytime I feel bummed out by Pokémon I think "man, who cares, Three Houses is amazing" lol

 

[rustyphish]

Why is my opinion as an individual consumer less valid because of some jackasses on Twitter? Do you really want to play this game? Toxicity and entitlement is in every single video game fanbase, Pokemon is no different.

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Your opinion is less valid because it's different than their's obviously.

Guaranteed if the "toxicity" were flipped they'd be arguing the exact opposite side about their right to have an opinion

 

[Cipherr]

What did you expect? Last I checked people that didnt like it planned to vote with their wallets so. I would imagine you would see less and less of it as release draws closer until you hear nothing at all. An IP that big probably won't have a noticeable impact on sales if I had to guess. People can dislike something without having/needing to rage about it every day all day.

Oh yes, the whole "a certain part of X fandom is deranged, so the entire fandom is". The perfect way to dismiss criticism to the IP.

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To be fair this is used everywhere nowadays. You cant even criticize the epic store without people trying to box you in with the toxic extremist. It's like the latest tool to deflect criticism really. I even feel like maybe its started to creep into GoT final season criticism. Have to fight the urge to generalize people like that. It's really dishonest/unfair.

 

[ned_ballad]

I noticed I can actually click on Pokemon tweets now and not see 99% dex spam. People are actually talking about the game

 

[Deleted member 249]

I love having my entire right to have an opinion invalidated because of some douchebags I've never even met. It's great for discourse.

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Who says you're not allowed to your opinion? You're complaining about people calling the "National Dex" folks toxic, I'm explaining why.

 

[Mekanos]

Big deal that a franchise made for kids which won me over in my childhood doesn't specifically cater to my interests anymore after 20 years.

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I mean, there's an argument to be made that the smart business move with longrunning franchises like this is to do what you can to keep your adult fanbase happy. Look at Disney, their whole bread and butter is having fans as young as 3 and as old as 90.

 

[Deleted member 249]

Why is my opinion as an individual consumer less valid because of some jackasses on Twitter? Do you really want to play this game? Toxicity and entitlement is in every single video game fanbase, Pokemon is no different.

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Who says you're not allowed to your opinion? You're complaining about people calling the "National Dex" folks toxic, I'm explaining why.

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[rustyphish]

Who says you're not allowed to your opinion? You're complaining about people calling the "National Dex" folks toxic, I'm explaining why.

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Because I'm a national dex folk, and therefore am lumped in as being "toxic" despite doing nothing but trying to discuss the game and defend myself when people call me toxic

 

[Mekanos]

Because it's used to shut down discussion and criticism, as you said earlier:

"There's a valid argument to be made, but it got lost long ago when those who go overboard, no matter how few, went overboard."

 

[Deleted member 2340]

You're misunderstanding me if you think by my logic no one should voice their complaints. I literally say you should. But once it is clear there is no interest in your complaints being addressed, you're doing everyone, most of all yourself, a disservice by continuing to ask someone who has made it clear they don't want to accommodate you for attention.

All of this said, issues of accessibility for people with disabilities are far more important than someone being mad they can't import Dunsparce into Sword and Shield. If that's what people want to rally around, I'm all for persistently raising the issue until it's addressed, because it's actually meaningfully important. The whole "bringbacknationaldex" nonsense has basically been like fans of Street Fighter complaining to Capcom that Blanca isn't SF6, Capcom saying he won't be in SF6, and then fans continue to complain about it.

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First let me stress that the cut Pokémon thing doesn't bother me but I do feel that Game Freak made some mistakes with delivering the cut Pokémon message and the timing was poor because of those mistakes. It could've been handled better on their end.

At E3 Masuda could've laid it all out by saying this is our policy moving forward(which he did) and here's why, he goes on to explain it. Then followed up on Pokémon Home info with how the Pokémon who are stuck there can be used and maybe even reveal some stuff about Home at that point to make it seem not so bad.

They didn't do that. They drugged it out and released statements after the fact which only fueled the nonsense.

I don't fault Game Freak for cutting the Pokémon if that's their design choice moving forward. I fault them for how they handle it. Game Freak unintentionally fueled the #nationaldex for a good month.

That's besides the point... besides comments on Era I don't see anything related to the #nationaldex much anymore while people I know irl never cared about it.

Also, you're right. I misunderstood your post. I remember being told what you said pre Let's Go launch whenever I brought up the motion control thing and reacted the way I did.

 

[Wamb0wneD]

Nvm.

 

[Deleted member 249]

Because I'm a national dex folk, and therefore am lumped in as being "toxic" despite doing nothing but trying to discuss the game and defend myself when people call me toxic

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I'm telling you why there are some who do that, I'm not saying those who do it are right. There's literally nothing wrong with feeling disappointed or angry and I've said multiple times in this thread i empathize with that position. But you and others keep asking "why do people call us toxic just for having an opinion", I'm telling you that's an incorrect reading. That's now why they're calling you toxic. Now those who are without provocation are also engaging in toxicity themselves, by the way, but I'm answering your question.

 

[Pyro]

It's almost as if dumb internet rage is just par for the course at this point and so companies roll their eyes and let it die down on its own because regardless of whether or not you're right/wrong you're little dick having ass is gonna buy it anyway.

 

[Wamb0wneD]

And what about the other way around?
I'm not arguing that Game Freak and TPCi's handling of this wasn't shitty. In fact my initial response as anyone who was frequenting those threads on here knows was actual empathy for people who get burned by this move. But this whole charade lost any standing it had the minute it went to the toxic and vitriolic lengths it eventually ended up going to.

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But there are always some assholes that take things too far. Always. I just don't share the viewpoint that the hashtag and all the other jazz lost their standing because some crazy people got inevitably involved. For me it just seems like the people arguing for GF's decision took these asshole's actions and used them to paint everyone arguing against GF's decisions with the same brush.
This deligitimizing of arguments has obviously worked, hence your stance that changed on the matter. I just don't think deligitmizing people's argument that way is good for any discourse. Most of people stayed respectful, but at some point even sharing the hashtag was seen as toxic, and I think that's wrong.

 

[Dogenzaka]

As someone who was into the #BringBackNationalDex stuff and furious at a lot of the decisions GF is making, people can only be outraged for so long. It's exhausting and GameFreak have already conveyed they have no intention on listening and changing their stance, no post-release updates or anything. At the end of the day I still love Pokemon and I think SwSh is looking really fun, but I admit defeat and I'll grab them used after a few weeks or something.

 

[Horohorohoro]

I'm not going to say anyone is an idiot because they do value having all their Pokemon in the game - who am I to judge you for the reasons you play these games? But with that said:

• It goes both ways, with people who want the National Dex calling people who don't care about the issue corporate bootlickers, shills, etc., and
• The reason people are pre-emptively namecalling now is because the whole #BringBackNationalDex nonsense has been toxic and aggressive for almost two months at this point. I get that there are people with valid complaints, but this whole debacle crossed the line into being toxic and vile a long time ago, it's no wonder that even people who have valid complaints are clubbed in with the more extreme elements, who are at least more vocal, if not more numerous

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Mate if you think that's what this thread was supposed to be you're being disingenuous. Especially since I actually responded to a lot of your concerns in a post of my own and you proceeded to ignore it (while actually replying to a later post I made).

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My apologies, I'll get to that now.
Excusing people trying to start arguments intentionally in a thread about an announcement is just silly. I'm not excusing people who are toxic about the National Dex, but there are a lot of people who simply talk about the National Dex stuff to feel superior to those who actually do feel upset or care about it. It's a valid thing to be upset about. I'm not looking to be called an idiot for having an opinion on a video game lmao and it's wild that "it's no wonder" that people are doing that.

 

[riq]

Because why should I keep engaging in discussion about a product I'm no longer interested in? That's why it died.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

But there are always some assholes that take things too far. Always. I just don't share the viewpoint that the hashtag and all the other jazz lost their standing because some crazy people got inevitably involved. For me it just seems like the people arguing for GF's decision took these asshole's actions and used them to paint everyone arguing against GF's decisions with the same brush.
This deligitimizing of arguments has obviously worked, hence your stance that changed on the matter. I just don't think deligitmizing people's argument that way is good for any discourse. Most of people stayed respectful, but at some point even sharing the hashtag was seen as toxic, and I think that's wrong.

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Looking at any Pokemon tweet its less a matter of delegitimizing arguments when there's barely an argument to be found. Mostly just memes, spam and insults.
Reasonable arguments must be burried deep in there somewhere because I haven't seen any.

 

[JustaBigOleGoof]

Pokemon is basically a victim of its own success. They need to keep games coming damn near yearly now to stay on track with merchandise and anime marketing. I don't see major changes happening as long as that holds true.

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I think this is the simplest way to explain the issue. I made a post a few days ago about this same thing. People get mad when core games don't come out, like when Let's Go was announced, and then get upset when they need to make changes to sustain the game.

 

[Hucast]

Ofcourse it is. It always goes this way. They all going to buy the game and more and more will cave in after each trailer and more information. They cannot deny the fun factor the pokenon games deliver.

 

[rustyphish]

I'm telling you why there are some who do that, I'm not saying those who do it are right. There's literally nothing wrong with feeling disappointed or angry and I've said multiple times in this thread i empathize with that position. But you and others keep asking "why do people call us toxic just for having an opinion", I'm telling you that's an incorrect reading. That's now why they're calling you toxic. Now those who are without provocation are also engaging in toxicity themselves, by the way, but I'm answering your question.

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Lol what? You literally said:

"There's a valid argument to be made, but it got lost long ago when those who go overboard, no matter how few, went overboard."

In your own words, no one who is pro-national dex is allowed to make an argument because of the extremists that went overboard.

Do you do this will religion? race? It has been, and will always be a bad idea to categorize groups by extremist members.

"But this whole charade lost any standing it had the minute it went to the toxic and vitriolic lengths it eventually ended up going to."

Explain to me how this is "empathy". You're literally discounting anyone's opinions you don't agree with, not empathizing with them.

 

[Serif]

Why should we expect a game with 800+ playable characters to keep having them when a fighting game can barely handle 20 at launch?

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I mean, they made 600+ 3D models, data, and animations for all the Pokemon between Gen V and Gen VI with very high polycounts for the new 3D models that they're still using for Pokemon GO, Masters, Pokedex 3D, and have repurposed for these games. It is evident that they put in a lot of the work, and the transition to the 3DS set those expectations.

I also don't understand the continued comparison to fighting game characters when a lot of the animations for these Pokemon and their moves have been completed and are being reused. You are also not individually controlling the Pokemon or their frame data, they have preprogrammed animations for special and physical attacks that plays along with particle effects for the animations and a new camera angle.

I'll say it again, no one is asking for all the Pokemon to be in Pokken because that would actually be ridiculous, while asking for all of them in these games is not a ridiculous expectation.