Is being a landlord (owning a condo/apt) a good idea or investment, or just stick to Stocks?

[RSTEIN]

You can't just say one is better than the other. Real estate takes actual work vs. investing in a broad basket of stocks via ETFs.

With real estate you get leverage that you just can't get with stocks. The gross return of real estate is less than stocks but you have to factor in leverage. For example, I just sold two apartments for $500k. I paid $435k. My equity in this was only $87k. The apartments only went up by 15% but my profit was $150k--nearly double my investment due to the leverage.

Sounds easy right? No, you really have to know your market. What are the demographics? Is there immigration/intramigration? What construction is taking place in the area that will lead to an increase in value over time (e.g., new transportation systems, colleges/education, retail stores, etc.).

The other issue is cash flow. In my area it is virtually impossible to find cash flow positive investments. I have a very intricate spreadsheet that lets me model changes in interest rates, rent, etc., to make sure I'm close to cash flow neutral (i.e., the tenant pays all my mortgage, tax, condo fees/HOA, utility expenses) while I benefit in the appreciation of the units over time. You don't want to be losing $200-$300 a month on your units.

So if you're prepared to do the work and find opportunities then real estate is definitely a worthwhile endeavor. Stocks are more laid back. I do both!

 

[Speedstersonic]

Honestly this thread feels gross. Housing should not be a commodity. Seeing this sucks as someone who kust wants to own 1 house and cant get out of renting

 

[Keasar]

So giving your money to the capitalist game board companies?

Click to shrink...

Can participate in the work to dismantle capitalism while trying to just have some nice evenings with friends.

 

[Tallshortman]

Can participate in the work to dismantle capitalism while trying to just have some nice evenings with friends.

Click to shrink...

I'm sure you can find other ways to have a nice evening without impeding on your principles

 

[CherryWoodFuton]

Some of these posters are something else to barge in on a thread about investment advice and poo poo it by saying fuck you for buying property and shit

 

[Cow]

I'm sure you can find other ways to have a nice evening without impeding on your principles

Click to shrink...

Are you comparing buying a board game to profiting off of the right to housing and in turn leading to homelessness of the most vulnerable?

Literally what are you doing?

 

[Xando]

I'd do both but if you don't have the capital for real estate you might aswell look at REITs

 

[collige]

So giving your money to the capitalist game board companies?

Click to shrink...

There's always the original anti-capitalist version of Monopoly, ironically called The Landlord's Game.

 

[Darknight]

Can participate in the work to dismantle capitalism while trying to just have some nice evenings with friends.

Click to shrink...

Can't you use the same argument with someone investing in a property to secure their future though? You can work to move things better in society while still dealing with the current system and trying to secure your future for you and your family.

 

[Cow]

Can't you use the same argument with someone investing in a property to secure their future though? You can work to move things better in society while still dealing with the current system and trying to secure your future for you and your family.

Click to shrink...

But to profit off of the suffering directly? It's direct profit off of suffering for your own benefit.

 

[Darknight]

Are you comparing buying a board game to profiting off of the right to housing and in turn leading to homelessness of the most vulnerable?

Click to shrink...

You don't know how those games are manufactured. Heck, we have a thread that has been pinned about how game consoles are made from slave labor. Aren't those people vulnerable?

But to profit off of the suffering directly? It's direct profit off of suffering for your own benefit.

Click to shrink...

Who is to say it's directly though? The person you may be renting to might not be suffering when they are renting. You're trying to group every situation to fit under one scenario. Why not take the worst case scenario of how things are manufactured and apply that to every product made if you want to make such a sweeping generalization?

 

[Tallshortman]

Are you comparing buying a board game to profiting off of the right to housing and in turn leading to homelessness of the most vulnerable?

Literally what are you doing?

Click to shrink...

I'm pointing out how silly it is to condemn the OP for "participating" in society to while doing so yourself. Another funny fact given most board games are usually made in factories in Asia with relatively low pay, long hours, and questionable safety.

Are you equating the mere fact of renting property to exploitation? You believe there's literally zero difference between all landlords?

 

[Relix]

I'd try capital first and then real estate. Ah least that's been my move. Just purchased my house and will surely rent it out in 5-6 years and move somewhere bigger/better. real estate is also a tangible property and it's fantastic for leverage.

 

[Lumination]

But to profit off of the suffering directly? It's direct profit off of suffering for your own benefit.

Click to shrink...

There is a long, long line from person owns home to person owning home causes homeless to person owning home is directly profiting off of the suffering of the homeless. You can make similar jumps to sufferings from just about anything in modern society. Let's just never improve our stock in life because the system is bad and participating in it makes us complicit, is the conclusion.

 

[Cow]

You don't know how those games are manufactured. Heck, we have a thread that has been pinned about how game consoles are made from slave labor. Aren't those people vulnerable?

Click to shrink...

Correct. And as you said, those things are spoke out against? Go in that thread and trivialise that in the same way you are trivialising this and see what happens. Do it. I do think people need to keep their consumerism in check and think more carefully about the products they buy. No argument from me.

Who is to say it's directly though? The person you may be renting to might not be suffering when they are renting. You're trying to group every situation to fit under one scenario. Why not take the worst case scenario of how things are manufactured and apply that to every product made if you want to make such a sweeping generalization?

Click to shrink...

But private housing is for profit. It is always exploitative vs state owned housing that is usually non profit. Why do you think it is fine to profit off of the basic right to housing? Do you not agree everybody should have the right to housing? Why support the profit of that and support private landlords and rising rent.

Do you agree state owned housing is better than private? State owned is more secure, and cheaper. More rights are given to those in state property here in the UK.

have you experienced any of this first hand? Do you know what it is like being refused housing by landlords because they do not want people on welfare in their homes? Have you been in that position? I have. And no state owned housing is available.

 

[Keasar]

You don't know how those games are manufactured. Heck, we have a thread that has been pinned about how game consoles are made from slave labor. Aren't those people vulnerable?

Click to shrink...

You blame the production owners, not the consumers, for exploitative production methods.

I'm pointing out how silly it is to condemn the OP for "participating" in society to while doing so yourself.

Are you equating the mere fact of renting property to exploitation? You believe there's literally zero difference between all landlords?

Click to shrink...

Renting OUT is exploitation. Renting from someone is being exploited. And yes, even if the vampire politely excuses himself to suck my blood, he is still a vampire sucking my blood.

Who is to say it's directly though? The person you may be renting to might not be suffering when they are renting. You're trying to group every situation to fit under one scenario. Why not take the worst case scenario of how things are manufactured and apply that to every product made if you want to make such a sweeping generalization?

Click to shrink...

The single few people who might be having some overpaid CEO job and renting a place is vastly outnumbered by the literal billions who have to work exploited labour jobs for a pay that only compensates a small part of the labour while the landlord then, who's only work is that they *own* the property that the person lives in, takes a further share of that persons wages.

 

[Cow]

There is a long, long line from person owns home to person owning home causes homeless to person owning home is directly profiting off of the suffering of the homeless. You can make similar jumps to sufferings from just about anything in modern society. Let's just never improve our stock in life because the system is bad and participating in it makes us complicit, is the conclusion.

Click to shrink...

That is literally no true though. Private landlords are DIRECTLY responsible for homelessness. DIRECTLY. I have literally been in this situation. The state should be the only landlord.

 

[echoshifting]

I think in 2021 with that amount of money I'd be looking at industrial real estate. Buy a warehouse or two.

 

[Scarface]

This kind of reads like "squeeze people who are desperate for shelter out of their money". Hope I'm just reading into it too much.

Click to shrink...

Exact vibes i am getting. Its deplorable.

Fuck landlords and especially aspiring ones here who should know better

 

[Keasar]

That is literally no true though. Private landlords are DIRECTLY responsible for homelessness. DIRECTLY. I have literally been in this situation. The state should be the only landlord.

Click to shrink...

And even then, the persons living in the house should be the direct owners of said house.

 

[Relix]

That is literally no true though. Private landlords are DIRECTLY responsible for homelessness. DIRECTLY. I have literally been in this situation. The state should be the only landlord.

Click to shrink...

The state be the only landlord? What? What happens if the state wants you out of your house for say, religious reason or some bullshit? Hell no. I don't trust the government very much, especially (in the USA) if republicans keep leaning into fascism.

 

[Cow]

The state be the only landlord? What? What happens if the state wants you out of your house for say, religious reason or some bullshit? Hell no. I don't trust the government very much, especially (in the USA) if republicans keep leaning into fascism.

Click to shrink...

The state can do that either way though? If the state goes rogue, it doesn't matter if the landlord is private or not. Landlords still follow laws created by the state. What difference does it make in your fantasy scenario?

 

[Relix]

The state can do that either way though? If the state goes rogue, it doesn't matter if the landlord is private or not.

Click to shrink...

True that. In the case of something like the USA I'd see something like that tougher to happen, but there's bullshit like eminent domain that they can pull off.

I just don't agree owning property and renting it out is immoral. I do agree corporations owning property and renting it is complete and utter bullshit.

 

[Tater]

That is literally no true though. Private landlords are DIRECTLY responsible for homelessness. DIRECTLY. I have literally been in this situation. The state should be the only landlord.

Click to shrink...

Can you elaborate on your direct experience? Did a private landlord evict you or push you out somehow?

 

[Neo C.]

But I also have a bunch of friends who rented homes for 5+ years and then one day got a notice that they had to GTFO because the landlord wanted to sell the home. That sucks!

Click to shrink...

That's a problem of regulation though. In my country, landlords can't do that without good reason, and even then the renters have 3 months before moving out. I think that's pretty reasonable.

 

[Tallshortman]

Renting OUT is exploitation. Renting from someone is being exploited. And yes, even if the vampire politely excuses himself to suck my blood, he is still a vampire sucking my blood.

Click to shrink...

It is not inherently, there's many people who can afford purchasing the same quality of home and choose not to for a variety of reasons. Besides in your board game example you're making a conscious choice for a non-necessity. I can certainly sympathize with an actually exploited renter given housing is a necessity.

 

[Lunar Wolf]

You blame the production owners, not the consumers, for exploitative production methods.


Renting OUT is exploitation. Renting from someone is being exploited. And yes, even if the vampire politely excuses himself to suck my blood, he is still a vampire sucking my blood.

The single few people who might be having some overpaid CEO job and renting a place is vastly outnumbered by the literal billions who have to work exploited labour jobs for a pay that only compensates a small part of the labour while the landlord then, who's only work is that they *own* the property that the person lives in, takes a further share of that persons wages.

Click to shrink...

Not at all. I rent out a middle class home to a family that can buy their own when they want to but prefer to rent.

It's a case by case issue.

 

[Darknight]

Correct. And as you said, those things are spoke out against? Go in that thread and trivialise that in the same way you are trivialising this and see what happens. Do it. I do think people need to keep their consumerism in check and think more carefully about the products they buy. No argument from me.

Click to shrink...

The thing is unless you don't partake in any consumerism, you're going to be guilty of some sort of exploitation. I'm saying we can argue for improvements at a macro level, without being so condemning of people at the micro level.

But private housing is for profit. It is always exploitative vs state owned housing that is usually non profit. Why do you think it is fine to profit off of the basic right to housing? Do you not agree everybody should have the right to housing? Why support the profit of that and support private landlords and rising rent.

Click to shrink...

Just about any investment is going to be exploitive of other people when you want to be reductive about it. What you're saying is people should not invest in their future because it's always going to be at the expense of someone else.

Do you agree state owned housing is better than private? State owned is more secure, and cheaper. More rights are given to those in state property here in the UK.

Click to shrink...

That depends on the condition of the state owned housing. State owned housing doesn't automatically make it better because often there's issues with budgets and oversight that is missing that doesn't necessarily make them a better choice.

have you experienced any of this first hand? Do you know what it is like being refused housing by landlords because they do not want people on welfare in their homes? Have you been in that position? I have. And no state owned housing is available.

Click to shrink...

Personally, not directly but I have had family members in that direct situation so I'm well aware of it happening and the complexities involved with it. Nobody is saying it doesn't happen. What I'm saying is it's not the case 100% of the time so trying to apply a systemic macro problem to the individual at a micro level isn't exactly fair. So if you want to apply those macro issues at a micro level, you might as well do it for every product in the book including those board games because at some level you can make the case that someone is getting exploited for something as simple as ones own entertainment.

I prefer to look at and acknowledge the issues at a macro level, and work towards those improving those systemic problems without condemning someone at the micro level for doing what they can to secure their future for themselves and their family. Otherwise we're just racing to the bottom trying to prove you're better when you're worse off because you didn't give in to do things to better yourself because you dared to exploit someone, somewhere for your personal gain.

You blame the production owners, not the consumers, for exploitative production methods.

Click to shrink...

The production owners in this case when it comes to property would be the government for restricting the inventory of houses due to current zoning laws. People owning property aren't the root cause of the housing problem; it's the lack of supply to begin with and that is a bigger systemic issue that needs to be dealt with.

Renting OUT is exploitation. Renting from someone is being exploited. And yes, even if the vampire politely excuses himself to suck my blood, he is still a vampire sucking my blood.

Click to shrink...

By that same logic, so is buying anything because people were exploited to create that product that you just bought, If you want to be reductive, any entertainment product is giving someone entertainment is being entertained at the expense of people being exploited. That's the logic you're using so if you're going to use it at least be consistent to condemn someone who is entertaining themselves at the exploitation of others.

The single few people who might be having some overpaid CEO job and renting a place is vastly outnumbered by the literal billions who have to work exploited labour jobs for a pay that only compensates a small part of the labour while the landlord then, who's only work is that they *own* the property that the person lives in, takes a further share of that persons wages.

Click to shrink...

The logical flaw in the thinking of the original post was that 100% of people renting are directly suffering which isn't the case. While there are a lot of people suffering, it's not everyone and there is still a large percentage of people who aren't at the poverty level who are renting. Not all landlords are sitting at home just counting stacks of cash of money. You can find many on this forum who hold regular jobs and who do things to maintain the property. I'm not saying everyone is like that, but I'm also not saying nobody is like this either. So we need to stop with the broad generalizations and start looking at things with more nuance to it. Not every situation is the same, but like I said above I prefer to look at things from a macro systemic level rather than condemn those who are doing things for their own future and family at a micro level.

 

[GYODX]

Not at all. I rent out a middle class home to a family that can buy their own when they want to but prefer to rent.

It's a case by case issue.

Click to shrink...

Don't bother. It's dogmatic with these people.

 

[Madrugador]

That's a problem of regulation though. In my country, landlords can't do that without good reason, and even then the renters have 3 months before moving out. I think that's pretty reasonable.

Click to shrink...

In my country you usually get one month notice per each year you have been in the property. It goes both ways.

Also, you get seriously taxed after having more than two properties. A good way of regulating things IMO.

 

[Cow]

Can you elaborate on your direct experience? Did a private landlord evict you or push you out somehow?

Click to shrink...

Private landlords in the area would not accept me because I was a gypsy and on welfare. This is not the case for government owned housing.
Google 'No DSS'. It is a big issue in the UK. Private landlords do not want poor people in their property. So we have a scenario where the government stopped building houses, and private landlords are literally turning away the most vulnerable. This leads to homelessness.

 

[Xando]

Not at all. I rent out a middle class home to a family that can buy their own when they want to but prefer to rent.

It's a case by case issue.

Click to shrink...

I wouldn't bother. Most of the people on here are so deadset on their ideology they only see black and white.

Best way is to increase tenant protection by the state while continuing to encourage private ownership.

 

[collige]

Not at all. I rent out a middle class home to a family that can buy their own when they want to but prefer to rent.

It's a case by case issue.

Click to shrink...

When you look at the issue in aggregate instead of case by case though, there's some pretty big trends that emerge. Note how the commonly touted positive benefits to renting are all less popular than the financial constraints even for white people.

 

[Cow]

That's a problem of regulation though. In my country, landlords can't do that without good reason, and even then the renters have 3 months before moving out. I think that's pretty reasonable.

Click to shrink...

You think it is reasonable to tell somebody they have 3 months to fuck off out of their home they have bee living in for years? Doesn't happen with government owned housing.

 

[molnizzle]

Don't take financial advise from Era. If you let moral sentiments cloud your financial decisions you'll end up working shit jobs until you die.

I don't think I've ever met someone who lost money with real estate, long term.

 

[Ryuelli]

George Washington once said "stick to crypto".

 

[waterpuppy]

Jesus christ some of the responses in this thread. I just cannot relate to the landlord defense squad in here.

 

[Frag Waffles]

OP if you see this amongst the fierce debate on capitalism, you can also look into reits. Real estate exposure, without any of the baggage. The management team handles all of it and distributes profits to shareholders.

Realty Income Corp is one of the staples for many income portfolios, and one of my favorites. But there are a lot to choose from.

 

[PanzerKraken]

I wouldn't get financial advice here.

 

[Van Bur3n]

Keep in might you won't be able to come out during the day and you'll have to be invited in order to enter any other building from now on.

 

[ameleco]

Don't take financial advise from Era. If you let moral sentiments cloud your financial decisions you'll end up working shit jobs until you die.

I don't think I've ever met someone who lost money with real estate, long term.

Click to shrink...

Real estate sucks compared to the gains of the stock market. You're ultimately forced to live somewhere so you should live somewhere yes (and maybe even subsidize that by renting a room) and then invest everything else into stocks. The gains over the past few years have been insane. Willing to be proven wrong on this (haven't even looked at potential calculations with real estate). I only know my investments are doing amazing. Even with this recent downturn.

That said, I hate the idea of scamming people too and if I can avoid it, I will

 

[TarpitCarnivore]

But an apartment is going to provide a steadier income each month. The dividend isn't going to outperform the rent.

Click to shrink...

Assuming the profits ends up outweighing the TCO. The funds will outperform over the long term.

 

[Neo C.]

You think it is reasonable to tell somebody they have 3 months to fuck off out of their home they have bee living in for years? Doesn't happen with government owned housing.

Click to shrink...

Of course a government can do that. China owns all land and is notorious for pushing their people away for big projects.

In my country, the government owns some property and can decide to sell it too. Just because it's governmental property doesn't mean things can't change.

 

[Deleted member 4346]

OP, I can't say whether being a landlord is a good investment or not, but I do know that it's exploitation to profit from the basic need of your fellows for shelter. That's not something I would ever want to be a party to. I couldn't sleep at night if I made my money in this fashion.

Jesus christ some of the responses in this thread. I just cannot relate to the landlord defense squad in here.

Click to shrink...

It's a reminder that even the worst and most exploitative elements will find defenders.

 

[bionic77]

Don't take financial advise from Era. If you let moral sentiments cloud your financial decisions you'll end up working shit jobs until you die.

I don't think I've ever met someone who lost money with real estate, long term.

Click to shrink...

Its generally very safe but nothing is certain.

I used to want to get into commercial property because the rents are so much higher.

For my whole life if you had a decent office space it was going to be pretty easy to rent out and the maintenance was not going to be crazy. It would be an actual profit generator.

But I know two people who are getting fucked badly since COVID on commercial properties. They can't even cover their mortgage.

It will probably recover eventually but you never know.

 

[Joni]

Assuming the profits ends up outweighing the TCO. The funds will outperform over the long term.

Click to shrink...

The funds only transform in significant money at the time of liquidating, the real estate gives a steady income for its entire existence. If your idea of investing is to only have significant income in 10 years, the funds might outperform it at exactly that 10 year point. But during those 10 years, the real estate will outperform it. Suppose that 80K translates into 100K after 10 years with an index funds, and a couple of K in dividends. The real estate is going to translate into let's say 6K each year. Which is 60K after 10 years. Then you could sell it for 80K and still come out ahead.

 

[Darkstar0155]

There is nothing wrong with being a landlord as long as your not ripping people off and pricing your rental fairly.

 

[LilZippa]

fuck landlords

Click to shrink...

Community leaches

 

[chiller]

If you let moral sentiments cloud your financial decisions you'll end up working shit jobs until you die.

Click to shrink...

You know, if you shed your morality and any sense of decency, you sure can make a lot of money exploiting people.

 

[spootime]

Real estate sucks compared to the gains of the stock market. You're ultimately forced to live somewhere so you should live somewhere yes (and maybe even subsidize that by renting a room) and then invest everything else into stocks. The gains over the past few years have been insane. Willing to be proven wrong on this (haven't even looked at potential calculations with real estate). I only know my investments are doing amazing. Even with this recent downturn.

That said, I hate the idea of scamming people too and if I can avoid it, I will

Click to shrink...

Im honestly not sure. I own zero real estate but I have friends who do and the returns seem pretty crazy. Say you have 100k to invest -- sure, you could get maybe 10-15% gains in a good year in the market, or you could get a mortgage to leverage the 100k for a 500k+ house which you could rent out to cover the mortgage payments and upkeep while the house appreciates.

Im more interested in the financials behind renting vacation properties in cities that have year-round tourism interest (asheville NC, etc.) and then airBNBing them 24/7.