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Metallix87

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With time, everything gets easier. That's largely a non-issue. The game has a few initial barriers / hurdles that make it difficult for new players to begin playing, and stream watchers to begin watching. I'm not sure how Valve can work on "fixing" that.
 

Anteo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,099
Quick question. Do you get draft rewards? Is it set up like arena in HS?

Depends. You can draft for free and you wont get rewards from that, there is also prize play which costs tickets to go in and you get rewards if you get at least 3 wins before you lose 2.

There is also keeper draft that costs tickets and 5 closed card packs to play. The rewards are the same as the other but you get to keep the cards you pick for the draft

You can buy 5 ticket for $5. There is also 15 and packs tickets you can get from the level up system this season.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,432
Depends. You can draft for free and you wont get rewards from that, there is also prize play which costs tickets to go in and you get rewards if you get at least 3 wins before you lose 2.

There is also keeper draft that costs tickets and 5 closed card packs to play. The rewards are the same as the other but you get to keep the cards you pick for the draft

You can buy 1 ticket for $2. There is also 15 and packs tickets you can get from the level up system this season.

Thanks. So there's no way to generate 'value' playing free draft? No new cards or packs?
 

RepairmanJack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,096
Thanks. So there's no way to generate 'value' playing free draft? No new cards or packs?

They added a leveling progression right before the holiday's that added the ability to get tickets and packs through leveling, I think 10 tickets and 15 packs in total? As time has passed though it almost seems like it was a stop gap to put in place while they were all on holiday vacation and it will be fleshed out more soon.
 

Anteo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,099
Thanks. So there's no way to generate 'value' playing free draft? No new cards or packs?

You can keep playing free draft and the pre constructed as much as you want but you will only get packs from the progresion system and thats capped at 15 tickets and 15 packs right now for the season (we dont know how long seasons are). You could technically go infinite with an over 60% winrate in prized play but thats unlikely given how fierce is the competition right now.

You can also recycle 20 cards into 1 ticket.

Also check my update on the ticket prize, for some reaaon i was thinking about HS arena price lol.

Finally if you are i terested in constructed, you can just buy thr cards from a different player in the market. So no grinding packs or trading cards for 1/4 of the value, just buy the card.
 
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Deleted member 1849

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Thanks. So there's no way to generate 'value' playing free draft? No new cards or packs?


You'll still get EXP while playing free draft, which goes into the season rewards. You get free packs from that, but it's fairly slow.

The fact you can play free draft forever is a pretty big plus point, though.
 

Anteo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,099
A game takes roughly 15 minutes on average. Draft slightly more, and add a few minutes for slower play since you are a beginner.

Going through an entire round of draft should take no longer than 2 hours and will be much less if you go out early to 2 losses, but you can always exit half way through and come back to it. Just not in a match obviously.

I think they were asking about the progresion system season. I dont think even valve knows yet how long those will be
 

RepairmanJack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,096
Yeah sounds good to me. Think I'll check out the tutorial today.

Any guesses on how long a season will be?

No real guess. The way leveling set up makes me think it was largely put in as a stop gap to stop the bleeding of players before they took a couple week break for the holidays. I'm guessing it will be expanded on and broadened over time. This and the ranking system like they were just quick implementations to hold over some people's issues that were quick to fix.
 

Metallix87

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Nov 1, 2017
10,533
No real guess. The way leveling set up makes me think it was largely put in as a stop gap to stop the bleeding of players before they took a couple week break for the holidays. I'm guessing it will be expanded on and broadened over time. This and the ranking system like they were just quick implementations to hold over some people's issues that were quick to fix.
I'm guessing, with time, it will be developed and expanded to compete with Arena's new season ladder.
 

GLHFGodbless

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,285
6k daily players is more than enough to keep a game healthy, but I doubt Valve is pleased. Launching so soon after MTG Arena was just such an awful idea. They came last to the party and I guess were hoping the Dota name would carry it.

I wish Arena would launch on steam so we could get some number comparisons.
 

Deleted member 18807

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What's the problem with playing Hearthstone instead?
 

Metallix87

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Nov 1, 2017
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6k daily players is more than enough to keep a game healthy, but I doubt Valve is pleased. Launching so soon after MTG Arena was just such an awful idea. They came last to the party and I guess were hoping the Dota name would carry it.

I wish Arena would launch on steam so we could get some number comparisons.
Unfortunately, Steam is basically a competitors platform now as a result of Artifact, so I don't see that ever happening. Still, given the streaming numbers and also Wizards' shift in focus (plus statements from Mark Rosewater and others), the numbers for Arena must be huge.
 

Deleted member 18807

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What does this have to do with anything? What's the problem with playing anything else...
I mean that Artifact looked dead from the get-go. Hearthstone was already dominating the genre and still is. The games are so similar that I see no point getting worked up about playing one when the other is so much well estabilished. This isn't like the case with TF2 vs OW or Fortnite vs PUBG, because they both have very different mechanics and communities. But from what I know, Artifact is trying to steal Blizzard's lightning so hard it just became a shell of what a TCG could be in contrast to the competition.
 

Metallix87

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Nov 1, 2017
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I mean that Artifact looked dead from the get-go. Hearthstone was already dominating the genre and still is. The games are so similar that I see no point getting worked up about playing one when the other is so much well estabilished. This isn't like the case with TF2 vs OW or Fortnite vs PUBG, because they both have very different mechanics and communities. But from what I know, Artifact is trying to steal Blizzard's lightning so hard it just became a shell of what a TCG could be in contrast to the competition.
Artifact is trying to steal Arena's momentum, if anything. Arena is currently the rising star in that realm.
 

Deleted member 1849

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I mean that Artifact looked dead from the get-go. Hearthstone was already dominating the genre and still is. The games are so similar that I see no point getting worked up about playing one when the other is so much well estabilished. This isn't like the case with TF2 vs OW or Fortnite vs PUBG, because they both have very different mechanics and communities. But from what I know, Artifact is trying to steal Blizzard's lightning so hard it just became a shell of what a TCG could be in contrast to the competition.
Artifact and Hearthstone play absolutely nothing alike.
 

Hydrophobic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
217
I mean that Artifact looked dead from the get-go. Hearthstone was already dominating the genre and still is. The games are so similar that I see no point getting worked up about playing one when the other is so much well estabilished. This isn't like the case with TF2 vs OW or Fortnite vs PUBG, because they both have very different mechanics and communities. But from what I know, Artifact is trying to steal Blizzard's lightning so hard it just became a shell of what a TCG could be in contrast to the competition.
I'm confused because you cite Fortnite vs PUBG, TF2 vs OW for similar games that play differently, but then you say that Artifact is basically Hearthstone? Have you actually watched both of the games be played because they play fairly differently.
 

danmaku

Member
Nov 5, 2017
3,232
I mean that Artifact looked dead from the get-go. Hearthstone was already dominating the genre and still is. The games are so similar that I see no point getting worked up about playing one when the other is so much well estabilished. This isn't like the case with TF2 vs OW or Fortnite vs PUBG, because they both have very different mechanics and communities. But from what I know, Artifact is trying to steal Blizzard's lightning so hard it just became a shell of what a TCG could be in contrast to the competition.

The games aren't similar at all and Valve's intention was never to go after the Heartstone crowd. They chose this business model instead of F2P because it works better for competitive players. They made the game complex because hardcore players love complexity (and Dota is very complex too). I don't think they ever expected to do HS numbers, even though they're probably not happy with these numbers either.
 

RepairmanJack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,096
I mean that Artifact looked dead from the get-go. Hearthstone was already dominating the genre and still is. The games are so similar that I see no point getting worked up about playing one when the other is so much well estabilished. This isn't like the case with TF2 vs OW or Fortnite vs PUBG, because they both have very different mechanics and communities. But from what I know, Artifact is trying to steal Blizzard's lightning so hard it just became a shell of what a TCG could be in contrast to the competition.

Yeah, let me spend hundreds of dollars in a long established game with multiple expansions, or a shit ton of free time to get the occasional free pack while losing the entire time...

People could not like Hearthstone, or want to get in on the ground floor of a new game in the genre from one of the bigger companies.

Not to mention that the game has an interesting gimmick and structure to some and plays nothing like Hearthstone, that can't possibly be it.

Sure, let's just post "Hurr durr just play Hearthstone LUL"
 

Metallix87

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Nov 1, 2017
10,533
The games aren't similar at all and Valve's intention was never to go after the Heartstone crowd. They chose this business model instead of F2P because it works better for competitive players. They made the game complex because hardcore players love complexity (and Dota is very complex too). I don't think they ever expected to do HS numbers, even though they're probably not happy with these numbers either.
How is this model better for hardcore competitive players?
 

Metallix87

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Nov 1, 2017
10,533
They can get the deck they want faster, without relying on the luck of card packs. The resulting deck is also much cheaper.
That's not exactly true. It's mirroring the Magic Online model, which is FAR more expensive than Magic Arena, at least for the foreseeable future.
 

RepairmanJack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,096
That's not exactly true. It's mirroring the Magic Online model, which is FAR more expensive than Magic Arena, at least for the foreseeable future.

Does the Magic Online have the market capabilities of Artifact? I literally don't know. But it has effected the cheapness of the game pretty low. I think you can own every card in the game right now for $120?

Between putting $50 bucks in packs on day 1 and the progression packs I could complete my collection right now for about 40-50 the last time I checked. If I just wanted specific decks though, most have had a price range around $30 depending on the decks with a lot of decent and competitive ones between 5-10 and that's if you had none of the cards already.
 

Euler

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Oct 27, 2017
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RepairmanJack

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Oct 27, 2017
7,096
That's just because Artifact has a really small number of cards, smaller than any of the other big CCG/TCGs.

Yeah, no doubt, but still on the deck aspect as a whole you can get straight in and buy a top of the line deck for $30. You can't do that really in any of the other CCGs. And part of the allure, for me at least, is actually getting into this type of game on the ground floor.

But still, the cheapness is still a factor when so many people want to talk about how expensive and money grabbing the game is, when it's really pretty cheap and can be played indefinitely for 20 dollars with all the cards in the game in draft mode.
 

Metallix87

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Nov 1, 2017
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But you currently can get full collection in Artifact for 100$
Artifact has far fewer cards, so this just makes sense. Arena has five sets, with a sixth releasing in roughly a week and a half. It's impossible that Artifact will be that cheap if it ever reaches six sets, barring a complete tanking of the economy.
Does the Magic Online have the market capabilities of Artifact? I literally don't know. But it has effected the cheapness of the game pretty low. I think you can own every card in the game right now for $120?

Between putting $50 bucks in packs on day 1 and the progression packs I could complete my collection right now for about 40-50 the last time I checked. If I just wanted specific decks though, most have had a price range around $30 depending on the decks with a lot of decent and competitive ones between 5-10 and that's if you had none of the cards already.
Artifact is more or less copying the Magic Online model 1:1, though obviously with a far smaller card pool.
 

Justin

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Oct 25, 2017
1,757
Seattle, Washington
It's only super cheap because so many people bought in then sold out so quick. When the next set comes out, if a good number of those people don't come back to infuse the market with cards then the prices are going to skyrocket.
 

danmaku

Member
Nov 5, 2017
3,232
Does MTG:O even has a card market? Years ago, when I played it, you had to buy tickets and give them to bots to buy single cards. It was cumbersone and pricey but people did it anyway because it was still better than buying booster packs.

Valve stated that one of their design goals was to keep the card price fairly low to limit the P2W problem that all CCGs have.
 

Metallix87

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Nov 1, 2017
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Yeah, no doubt, but still on the deck aspect as a whole you can get straight in and buy a top of the line deck for $30. You can't do that really in any of the other CCGs. And part of the allure, for me at least, is actually getting into this type of game on the ground floor.

But still, the cheapness is still a factor when so many people want to talk about how expensive and money grabbing the game is, when it's really pretty cheap and can be played indefinitely for 20 dollars with all the cards in the game in draft mode.
Again, that cheapness is directly linked to the limited card pool. If and when it reaches a comparable carpool to Arena, barring a total market / player base collapse, it will likely be much more expensive than Arena.
 

RepairmanJack

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Oct 27, 2017
7,096
It's only super cheap because so many people bought in then sold out so quick. When the next set comes out, if a good number of those people don't come back to infuse the market with cards then the prices are going to skyrocket.

This isn't completely true though when the market continues to fluctuate up and down. Yes people flooded the market, but cards have still been going up and down in price. Axe and Drow went down when they got nurfed and were expected to keep going down with valve doing their buy back program(due to the nurf they were buying cards back from people for the top price the cards were the day before the nurf was announced) then the cards actually went back up after the initial crash even with Valve buying them back. They're now going back down, but I don't think it's just a factor of the market being flooded.
 

Metallix87

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Nov 1, 2017
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Does MTG:O even has a card market? Years ago, when I played it, you had to buy tickets and give them to bots to buy single cards. It was cumbersone and pricey but people did it anyway because it was still better than buying booster packs.

Valve stated that one of their design goals was to keep the card price fairly low to limit the P2W problem that all CCGs have.
The MTG:O bots ARE the card market. You can still buy and sell directly to other players, but bots are run by online card vendors as a means to control prices and keep things in check. They are not run by Wizards of the Coast.
 

RepairmanJack

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Oct 27, 2017
7,096
Again, that cheapness is directly linked to the limited card pool. If and when it reaches a comparable carpool to Arena, barring a total market / player base collapse, it will likely be much more expensive than Arena.

I mean, obviously only time will tell, but I have a hard time seeing how it'd get exorbitantly more expensive as a whole. Sure there will be some cards that will be really high, but as a whole, with stuff like keepers drafts where you can basically spend 2 tickets by recycling cards and literally pick the cards you want from a packs instead of just opening the packs and dealing with them. Between that and the complete market just seems really hard to be too expensive when you can directly buy or pick the exact cards you want at any time which will end up having you opening less packs as a whole.
 

Metallix87

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Nov 1, 2017
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I mean, obviously only time will tell, but I have a hard time seeing how it'd get exorbitantly more expensive as a whole. Sure there will be some cards that will be really high, but as a whole, with stuff like keepers drafts where you can basically spend 2 tickets to recycle cards and literally pick the cards you want from a packs instead of just opening the packs and dealing with them. Between that and the complete market just seems really hard to be too expensive when you can directly buy or pick the exact cards you want at any time which will end up having you opening less packs as a whole.
It's simple economics. Magic Online has similar keeper drafts and phantom drafts. The math works like this: As newer sets release, those sets are cracked for draft and fewer old packs are cracked. This results in an overall gradual supply shortage on older cards, causing prices to rise gradually on staples from those sets. Again, it is almost literally copying the Magic Online model, and we have data to see what the end result of that is.
 

HylianSeven

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Oct 25, 2017
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It's got different sources of RNG.

The opening hand is the most significant for me so far; there's no mulligan whatsoever. It can get pretty nasty if you draw a bad opening hand.
Yeah maybe I just haven't figured out how to deal with it if I have something like my blue/green deck, but I've found the absolute hardest thing to deal with in this game is that first turn, when your squishy ass heroes end up in front of a strong red hero like Bristleback and are dead unless you are lucky enough to have drawn a card to stop it. Red has it's weaknesses, but that first turn ain't one of them, and to actually do anything you need to have heroes alive.
 

RepairmanJack

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Oct 27, 2017
7,096
Yeah maybe I just haven't figured out how to deal with it if I have something like my blue/green deck, but I've found the absolute hardest thing to deal with in this game is that first turn, when your squishy ass heroes end up in front of a strong red hero like Bristleback and are dead unless you are lucky enough to have drawn a card to stop it. Red has it's weaknesses, but that first turn ain't one of them, and to actually do anything you need to have heroes alive.

I've seen some pros and streamers lately that have talked about how a lot of times you actually want your heroes dead, especially in blue. It's just a matter of timing. Blue is so strong late game that their balance is their early game is horrible. They have a lot of board control mechanics to try to stay alive, but they basically run on the idea that you don't want them always up, you more just want them up on the turns you need them.

It's all a whole lot more meta than I have time to think much about, I also don't much like blue anyways, but there seemingly is play around that stuff or reasons to not worry about it as much.

Something like wanting Ogre Magi to die turn 2(mana 4) because he's then back on the board right at 6 mana so you can place him exactly where you need to to try to use that multicast to the best of its possibility with those bigger signature cards. I'm sure there is other examples but this has been one I've seen most applicable.
 

DisturbedSwan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,815
Hampshire, UK.
It's an incredibly fun game is actually my GOTY. I've not played a CCG before and it has absolutely blown my mind with how tense and tactical it is

I've never failed to get a game really quickly in all game modes.

It is by far and away worth the $20 price of admissions considering you get 100 cards right off the bat.

Cannot recommend it enough, and I can say with certainty it's most definitely not dead.
 

Metallix87

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Nov 1, 2017
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It's an incredibly fun game is actually my GOTY. I've not played a CCG before and it has absolutely blown my mind with how tense and tactical it is

I've never failed to get a game really quickly in all game modes.

It is by far and away worth the $20 price of admissions considering you get 100 cards right off the bat.

Cannot recommend it enough, and I can say with certainty it's most definitely not dead.
I feel as though this post largely misses the point.
 

HylianSeven

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Oct 25, 2017
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I've seen some pros and streamers lately that have talked about how a lot of times you actually want your heroes dead, especially in blue. It's just a matter of timing. Blue is so strong late game that their balance is their early game is horrible. They have a lot of board control mechanics to try to stay alive, but they basically run on the idea that you don't want them always up, you more just want them up on the turns you need them.

It's all a whole lot more meta than I have time to think much about, I also don't much like blue anyways, but there seemingly is play around that stuff or reasons to not worry about it as much.

Something like wanting Ogre Magi to die turn 2(mana 4) because he's then back on the board right at 6 mana so you can place him exactly where you need to to try to use that multicast to the best of its possibility with those bigger signature cards. I'm sure there is other examples but this has been one I've seen most applicable.
I'll have to keep that in mind. My Blue/Green deck I'm using in Constructed right now is basically Ogre Magi/Meepo deck for multicasting mainly Divided We Stand, to have a huge Meepo army. I have Enchantress and Omniknight to try to keep all the Meepos alive, and Drow Ranger to give some more damage as well as the slience.
 

RepairmanJack

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Oct 27, 2017
7,096
I'll have to keep that in mind. My Blue/Green deck I'm using in Constructed right now is basically Ogre Magi/Meepo deck for multicasting mainly Divided We Stand, to have a huge Meepo army. I have Enchantress and Omniknight to try to keep all the Meepos alive, and Drow Ranger to give some more damage as well as the slience.

SirActionSlacks just actually did a video on his youtube about a decent Meepo deck, but his whole idea was to do red/blue with the same multicast idea but then getting a bunch of meepos and using time of triumph.

I love the idea of Meepo, but feel like he needs some reworking. Especially the gold receieved by the opponent.

One thing Slacks specifically points out with Meepo with the death aspect I was talking about is trying to layer the meepos. Having two out on the board and 3 in the fountain and back and forth so you don't essentially kill all your meepos at once giving opponent a ton of gold in one quick turn. So you essentially can put him down in high risk areas to assure he dies so your next three are free to go down. There's at least play mechanics to think about with him.
 

HylianSeven

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SirActionSlacks just actually did a video on his youtube about a decent Meepo deck, but his whole idea was to do red/blue with the same multicast idea but then getting a bunch of meepos and using time of triumph.

I love the idea of Meepo, but feel like he needs some reworking. Especially the gold receieved by the opponent.

One thing Slacks specifically points out with Meepo with the death aspect I was talking about is trying to layer the meepos. Having two out on the board and 3 in the fountain and back and forth so you don't essentially kill all your meepos at once giving opponent a ton of gold in one quick turn. So you essentially can put him down in high risk areas to assure he dies so your next three are free to go down. There's at least play mechanics to think about with him.
One idea I had was to get the Revtel Signet Ring (the one that reduces hero bounty) and that card that makes copies of an item (I forget what it's called) to try to get some of those on your Meepos to at least mitigate the gold you give up there. I might try changing the green to red and see where that gets me though.