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SirKai

Member
Dec 28, 2017
7,366
Washington
Going as far back as Team Fortress 2, the pioneering class-based FPS game, cool downs were pretty much non-existent, except for Spy's invisibility watch, which operated on more of a resource meter than a traditional cool down. The special utility and abilities of each character were built directly into their weapons, or otherwise maintained by ammo and resources found through out the map. Soldier doesn't use a cool down to balance his rocket jumping, and is instead measured by the player's own skill and the cost to the character's health. Engineer's buildings aren't limited by a timer, but instead based on scrap and resource collection. Likewise, the air blast capability eventually added to Pyro's flamethrower wasn't something levered by a cool down, but by their overall ammo.

Since the Moba and RPG-ification of multiplayer gaming at large in recent years, cool down based balancing has infected everything it seems. Rainbow Six: Siege launched in 2015 without any cool down based mechanics, and introduced only one character within the first year of DLC (Caveira) who's defining ability was fueled by a cool down or resource-esque mechanic. Going into to the first season of Siege's fifth year, the abilities of both new operators are balanced by cool downs. Overwatch from 2016 is similar to a moba in that cool downs dictate virtually every ability in the game (there's only one character in the game, Zenyatta, who is not cool down dependent), but the core gameplay and modes feel unquestionably Team Fortress 2 in inspiration. In the years since launch, Overwatch has even REMOVED other methods of resource management, by completely getting rid of Torbjorn's scrap collecting armor mechanic and redesigning him with only cool downs.

Shoot-and-loot games like Borderlands, Destiny, and Division have obviously had huge relevance in the industry and rely enormously on cool downs to define character types and classes. Apex Legends brings cool down abilities to battle royale on a huge scale (I know it's probably not the first, but it's the most influential in this regard), and the multplayer portion of the upcoming RE3 Remake, RE Resistance, has character classes defined by cool downs. Even strictly single player ventures like the new God of War, Spider-Man, and Astral Chain have gameplay tempos and balancing that at least partially pivots around cool down based skills.

The most recent offender to this is Granblue Fantasy Versus, which is a terrific fighting game by most accounts and one that I'm immensely enjoying, but the game offers quick inputs for some more complicated moves that are, you guessed it, attached to cool downs. It would be one thing if the cool down was only tied to the cost of ignoring the traditional "technical inputs" (the game's own language), but the cool downs are still there regardless! They're just less severe if you avoid using the short cuts. Now even 1-on-1 fighting games are subjected to balancing around cool down based moves and abilities. Mortal Kombat 11 also uses cool downs for the characters supers and defensive options (like tech rolls). Attaching any kind of resource to something tech rolling feels absurd, much less an arbitrary cool down.

I know why cool downs have become so popular; they're similar to regenerating health in that they're much easier to balance and design around. Cool downs create a guaranteed "floor" of player empowerment, ensuring that their agency and capabilities are only a timer away, while also putting a ceiling on the player's output by still limiting their overall effectiveness. They help the player from ever being totally out of options while also not being able to stack up and expend resources in a way that breaks the game (most of the time).

Still, I'm getting tired of how ubiquitous cool downs have become in modern games, especially in multiplayer games. There's so many other interesting methods of resource management that can make games and characters play more uniquely from each other; not just in how distinct their abilities are from one another, but how the reliance and recharging of those abilities can encourage players to interact with situations differently, instead of just waiting for a timer to fill up. Also, this is less important, but it just makes more sense for abilities to be measured differently than on an arbitrary timer. I get why Engineer needs to collect enough metal and weapons to build a turret, but why can Roadhog only throw out his hook every 8 seconds? My Legion's incredibly good auto-bind ability is for some reason only usable every 12 seconds, but Sekiro's High Monk combo string can be used as often as possible, but is built to be much more situational, so mashing it out all the time just because it's not on a measurable or refilling resource still isn't worth doing.

Does anyone else feel this way, or is this just oldmanyellsatcloud.jpg?
 
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Professor Beef

Official ResetEra™ Chao Puncher
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,498
The Digital World
There's little to no cooldowns in single-player games because there's no other players to balance against it, therefore requiring no need. That's just to answer the other question you had, though. I think cooldowns have their place in multiplayer games, and I can't think of any egregious examples where I was annoyed by them.
 

DoubleTake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,529
I mean you already identified why they're a thing. It's simply just much easier to balance/create mechanics around cooldowns.
 

AtomicShroom

Tools & Automation
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
3,075
They put cooldowns on the guns in the last "Contra" game.

COOLDOWNS... IN CONTRA.

That shit is ridiculous and has always been. I've always hated any game mechanic that forces you to arbitrarily stop or slowdown whatever you're doing, like stealth mechanics for example. Standing around and waiting is the very opposite of fun to me. Fuck that shit.
 

Tawpgun

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,861
Every game is balanced differently.

I'd rather have cooldowns in Apex Legends than having to scour the map for resources or having Gibralter throwdown endless shields.
 

Dreavus

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Jan 12, 2018
1,728
In MP games (and some SP games) it's just another lever that designers can tweak to adjust how powerful an ability is. If it's a strong ability you can temper this with a longer cooldown. IIRC there was a bit of a meme with a character in Dota 2 who kept getting a cooldown on one of his abilities extended longer and longer each patch because it was still so powerful.

I just see at as more design space that's been around for a while. Regular reloading is basically a cool down on your weapon.
 

Kupo Kupopo

Member
Jul 6, 2019
2,959
Still, I'm getting tired of how ubiquitous cool downs have become in modern games, especially in multiplayer games. There's so many other interesting methods of resource management that can make games and characters play more uniquely from each other; not just in how distinct their abilities are from one another, but how the reliance and recharging of those abilities can encourage players to interact with situations differently, instead of just waiting for a timer to fill up. Also, this is less important, but it just makes more sense for abilities to be measured differently than on an arbitrary timer. I get why Engineer needs to collect enough metal and weapons to build a turret, but why can Roadhog only throw out his hook every 8 seconds? My Legion's incredibly good auto-bind ability is for some reason only usable every 12 seconds, but Sekiro's High Monk combo string can be used as often as possible, but is built to be much more situational, so mashing it out all the time just because it's not on a measurable or refilling resource still isn't worth doing...

for example?...

it''s the ability to incorporate cool downs as a universal, fundamental mechanic across all sorts of games that accounts for their popularity. whatever the situation, they just work. ina way, they're like the universal, fundamental first-person shooter control scheme. why fix what ain't broke?...
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
I really dislike having something as essential as grenades on a cooldown.
 

Death Penalty

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,291
For multiplayer games, cooldowns are something that are more straightforward and competitively honest. They provide for a greater degree of counterplay and make understanding an opponent's kit more transparent. This is why they're so ubiquitous.

In League of Legends for example, a system that works off of a cooldowns, when an opponent uses an ability you know that that ability is down for a certain duration. This gives you a window of weakness to work around that isn't possible with other systems and it's very well-designed in my opinion.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I had cooldowns on my game's modules (basically extra weapons / attacks), which was originally balanced by a time limit on stages. Eventually I redesigned the game to not need time limits anymore, and also not have enemies spawning indefinitely, so I had to rethink the cooldown system too. They ended up being charged by damaging enemies and buildings, which promotes a much more active play style.

In a (versus) multiplayer game, however, this can easily lead to a snowball effect. An alternative can be to charge them on receiving damage, but not being able to use skills if you're never damage doesn't feel too good, either. There's really no easy answer and I think cooldowns for multiplayer games may be the "lesser evil".
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,961
South Carolina
It can be abused for balancing, and very very easy to go to the well too much with it.

Add in the fear of Restriction (Is Strength) in much of the populace, and voila!
 

Harken Raiser

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,992
I hear you OP, I've gotten sick of seeing cool downs everywhere. Give me resource management or something instead.
 
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SirKai

SirKai

Member
Dec 28, 2017
7,366
Washington

Abilities and player agency can be empowered by all sorts of means instead of just cool downs. In Soulcalibur, Nightmare doesn't wait for a cool down timer to fill up so he can activate Terror Charge (which buffs his move set, increases damage, and can extend combos); instead he either needs to risk using a weak, counterable, and easily punishable stand alone move to get his Terror Charge, or he needs to incorporate very specific attacks in his combos that will reward him Terror Charge if they hit the opponent.

In Ninja Gaiden 2, Hayabusa's Ultimate Technique is unbelievably powerful but isn't balanced around a cool down timer. Instead, he has to charge up manually and make himself vulnerable, or make sure he's killed at least a few foes already so he can use their essence to charge up the UT faster.

Doom 2016's glory kills and chainsaw executions don't necessarily fuel player "abilities" exactly, but they are fun and interesting tools that feed the player either health or ammo respectively, which creates a wonderful sense of tempo and rhythm that encourages the player to always be on the offensive. Even if they're low on health and resources, staying aggressive, playing actively, and killing enemies is still the best method for the player to get out of tricky situations.

In Dragon's Crown, the character's abilities and special items are managed a few different ways, including taking a few moments to manually charge up your next attack spell (like with the wizard and sorceress), managing extremely powerful ammunition like fire and poison arrows that can only be used so many times per dungeon (like with the elf), or abilities that can cost the character their primary weapon that they then need to navigate the action to manually retrieve (like with the dwarf and amazon).

In most of the 3rd person action Resident Evil games, the heroes can't just cast out their signature flash kicks and hay makers at will, nor are they tied to cool downs or stamina (except for RE6), but instead are context-sensitive and activated when enemies are shot and stunned in certain ways and can be triggered as counter attacks, and some really powerful moves can only be used with clever cooperation from the other player.

In Overwatch, one of the better examples of ability management is Genji's swift strike. It is on a cool down after use, but it becomes recharged instantly if he gets a kill, which gives Genji a uniquely fun style to his dueling and combat mechanics since he's not punished with an nonnegotiable cool down if he's staying in the fight and accurately landing his swift strikes.

In Monster Hunter World, most weapons have more powerful moves and attacks that can be built up to over the course of a hunt, and often times these heightened modes can be maintained for a long time or achieved in succession pretty quickly if the player is skilled enough with their weapon, dexterous enough to avoid getting hit too much, and knows the monster well enough. It creates a VERY high skill ceiling for players to practice up to and isn't mitigated by simple timers.

For another multiplayer example, the character passives in Apex Legends are great examples of this; Bloodhound can track enemies and see a lot of useful information that informs them of nearby enemies, and isn't something they need to manually activate. Lifeline gets a life-saving shield that deploys when she's reviving teammates, and there's no resource or timer tied to it. It's just a situational but always-present part of her ability design.

One of my favorite examples is in Rainbow Six: Siege. Dokkaebi isn't able to spy on the defender's cameras on a cool down, but instead she has to find the phones dropped by killed enemies and use those to manually hack the cameras. That kind of design is unique for the game and fits the character wonderfully.

And then there's also just the classic methods of tempering and measuring player power by limiting them with ammo and supply pickups, or the fighting game mantra that most moves can be used when and where the player is able to pull them off, but the cost is that the punishment comes from the reaction of the other player if they're blocked or if they miss.

I obviously don't mean to imply that cool downs are always bad, and there's obvious genres that are built around them (specifically mobas), but it does grate me a little when I see them in games where some more creative and daring design could have yielded some much more interesting results that informs how the player plays.
 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,448
Possibly from playing a lot of WoW, I simply view cooldowns as a resource, much like ammo or health.
 

Starlatine

533.489 paid youtubers cant be wrong
Member
Oct 28, 2017
30,375
Are you upset with stronger weapons having longer reload times/rarer ammo as well? Not everything is a conspiracy. Sometimes cooldowns are there for balance, and it works.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,680
i didn't read this as cooldowns. I read this as Cool Downs, I thought it was some kind of phrase for describing finishing moves
 

In Amber Clad

static and disarray
Moderator
Aug 26, 2018
5,502
London
There being a GCD for abilities was my biggest disappointment with Mass Effect 2.

Generally though, I don't mind cooldowns as long as they aren't too long. Destiny 2's felt too long.
 
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SirKai

SirKai

Member
Dec 28, 2017
7,366
Washington
Are you upset with stronger weapons having longer reload times/rarer ammo as well? Not everything is a conspiracy. Sometimes cooldowns are there for balance, and it works.

I'm of course not annoyed with methods like reload times and ammo rarity that dictate player power. Even with something like reload times, you have an entire magazine of ammo to expend before you decide when it's best to reload. Plus, some games like R6 and Apex, incorporate segmented reloading animations which actually adds a lot of nuance to how even reload works. Ammo rarity is a method of resource management that can be stretched across hours of gameplay and doesn't just affect the outcome or flow of a single encounter because of moves on 10 second cool downs, but proper planning in earlier encounters can still have dramatic ramifications on how later encounters play out (ie, not wasting your magnum ammo in the police station in RE2). There's typically far less nuance and far reaching consequences with how cool downs are usually implemented, since cool downs utilization is a binary action (activate or don't) and are guaranteed to come back when the HUD says so. There's a whole host of options and decisions to make with ammo management that affect whatever you're fighting now and what you're fighting two hours from now.

Even if ammo is easily replenished, some games are balanced with a maximum of so much "ammo" that can't be refilled during fights. Getting spirit emblems and devil breakers in Sekiro and DMC5 is pretty easy to do, but when you're fighting a lengthy boss, knowing when best to utilize those resources is still a complex series of decisions since there's usually no way to regain them during the fight.
 
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TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,140
Cooldowns in siege actually make your life more valuable. They're HARDER than just having your gadgets.
 

Starlatine

533.489 paid youtubers cant be wrong
Member
Oct 28, 2017
30,375
I'm of course not annoyed with methods like reload times and ammo rarity that dictate player power. Even with something like reload times, you have an entire magazine of ammo to expend before you decide when it's best to reload. Plus, some games like R6 and Apex, incorporate segmented reloading animations which actually adds a lot of nuance to how even reload works. Ammo rarity is a method of resource management that can be stretched across hours of gameplay and doesn't just affect the outcome or flow of a single encounter because of moves on 10 second cool downs, but proper planning in earlier encounters can still have dramatic ramifications on how later encounters play out (ie, not wasting your magnum ammo in the police station in RE2). There's typically far less nuance and far reaching consequences with how cool downs are usually implemented, since cool downs utilization is a binary action (activate or don't) and are guaranteed to come back when the HUD says so. There's a whole host of options and decisions to make with ammo management that affect whatever you're fighting now and what you're fighting two hours from now.

Even if ammo is easily replenished, some games are balanced with a maximum of so much "ammo" that can't be refilled during fights. Getting spirit emblems and devil breakers in Sekiro and DMC5 is pretty easy to do, but when you're fighting a lengthy boss, knowing when best to utilize those resources is still a complex series of decisions since there's usually no way to regain them during the fight.

You used borderlands as example but borderlands gives you several option to deal with cooldowns, from skills that reduce time on kills to skills that increase the duration of it or let it chain longer with something. See the gunzerker ability for instance, with a good build you can basically gunzerker nonstop but that still requires your ability on it. Other skills are just too strong to not have a cooldown, like Deathtrap, so whats the "solution", nerfing it so Gaige can use it more times or keep it as a reliable "oh shit" button that you can use and save your bacon but not abuse?

The Fire Emblem example doesnt work, game is based on missions, you can have "consumable" skills in stuff like that, how would you apply something similar to borderlands? Five phaselocks per map? It would be annoying as hell and just encourage people teleporting in and out to do stuff
 
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SirKai

SirKai

Member
Dec 28, 2017
7,366
Washington
You used borderlands as example but borderlands gives you several option to deal with cooldowns, from skills that reduce time on kills to skills that increase the duration of it or let it chain longer with something. See the gunzerker ability for instance, with a good build you can basically gunzerker nonstop but that still requires your ability on it. Other skills are just too strong to not have a cooldown, like Deathtrap, so whats the "solution", nerfing it so Gaige can use it more times or keep it as a reliable "oh shit" button that you can use and save your bacon but not abuse?

The Fire Emblem example doesnt work, game is based on missions, you can have "consumable" skills in stuff like that, how would you apply something similar to borderlands? Five phaselocks per map? It would be annoying as hell and just encourage people teleporting in and out to do stuff

Borderlands does have a lot of factors and ticks to its gameplay to affect ability regen beyond simple cool downs (Destiny as well, but less so). I'm not decrying Borderlands specifically, just mentioning that it's one of the emerging mainstream examples of a game bringing cool downs to action games.

Also, I never mentioned Fire Emblem...
 

Starlatine

533.489 paid youtubers cant be wrong
Member
Oct 28, 2017
30,375
Borderlands does have a lot of factors and ticks to its gameplay to affect ability regen beyond simple cool downs (Destiny as well, but less so). I'm not decrying Borderlands specifically, just mentioning that it's one of the emerging mainstream examples of a game bringing cool downs to action games.

Also, I never mentioned Fire Emblem...

My bad, i mixed two lines and thought you said fire emblem when you said spirit emblem for sekiro, hah. Thought it was a very odd example, now it makes sense.

And the cooldowns absolutely play a positive part in borderlands in my experience, both SP and specially in MP, forcing better syncing of ability use and cooperation from the group. I feel like the game would suffer a lot if you had less flashy abilities just so you can use them more frequently, but thats just my opinion.
 
Aug 28, 2019
440
This tends to annoy me in single-player RPGs, especially turn-based ones, because it often produces an artificially limiting rotation-based combat system that I really don't like. I prefer having an open toolbox. If I want to cast that spell two turns in a row, just let me do it, jeez.

Cooldown-based combat also seems to tempt developers into going further down a rabbit hole that emphasizes consistency and micro-planning over on-the-fly tactics that emerge from your general strategy. They may force you to equip only a few, fairly specific skills at a time, making them feel more like cards in your hand than ever-expanding tactical options. They might add hard-coded "combos" to create artificial synergies between skills, which to me feels further restricting. They might remove long-term resource management entirely, which cuts into the strategic layer of the game by isolating encounters from each other. Encounter variety can be diminished to accommodate the player's narrower capabilities, making every fight play out pretty much the same way. Starcrawlers and The Bard's Tale IV are examples of games that I felt suffered for their cooldown-based design. I just feel like I'm playing some hipster board game instead of an RPG.

They're not always bad. Shadows: Awakening made decent use of cooldown mechanics in a real-time environment. Playing effectively is all about choosing puppets and skills that work well together, and the long cooldowns on most abilities mean that you need to rapidly switch puppets during encounters to make the most of everyone's skills. Relying too much on one puppet will slow you down (some balance issues aside). I also felt in control of my own playstyle, for the most part. There are a lot of puppet configurations to choose from and synergies mostly emerge naturally from ability design.

On the turn-based side, Operencia wasn't too bad with this. Every ability except the standard attack has a cooldown as well as a mana cost, most abilities are tuned to be relatively powerful and expensive, and you have a limited "defend" option that will recover some mana. There's enough overlap between ability function and enough space on your hotbar that your turn-by-turn options don't suffer too much. This means that even though most of your abilities have a cooldown, you still have to make tactical decisions about when to use them versus when to attack normally or just wait. It's probably not how I would have designed it, but it worked well enough.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,378
One of my favorite examples is in Rainbow Six: Siege. Dokkaebi isn't able to spy on the defender's cameras on a cool down, but instead she has to find the phones dropped by killed enemies and use those to manually hack the cameras. That kind of design is unique for the game and fits the character wonderfully.
That's because if she could just do that it would be insanely overpowered, so they have to limit that in another way and make it more risky.
Her "normal" ability is on a cooldown tho, like most world abilities in Siege.
 

Brainfreeze

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,686
New Jersey
I 100% agree with OP. Cool downs obviously have their place, but it feels like, more often than not, they're used as a crutch in place of more interesting and deep design. It's been a huge turn-off for me in a lot of the games you mentioned in the OP (Overwatch, Siege, God of War, Spiderman). The popularity of MOBAs seems to have brought it mainstream, but I hope we move away from it going into next gen.

In most shooters, when your clip is empty you spend time reloading. That mechanic is a cooldown.

I see what you're saying, but I think you're simplifying the issue a little bit - by this definition, any animation that can't be cancelled could be considered a "cool down," but that's not what we're talking about here.

Reloading a gun is much more intuitive than an arbitraty cool down, and it's also typically part of a more complex system.

if your pistol ran out of ammo, you can switch guns or melee, which would be similar to using a different ability that isn't currently on cool down. You can also pick up a new pistol off the ground to skip the reload animation. Additionally, you can choose to reload after 1 bullet or after emptying the whole clip, which makes it a resource you're managing instead of a switch you're flipping. You have to actually have the ammo to reload, which makes it a matter of planning ahead as much as a matter of waiting. You can choose where and when to reload, but it's an action that makes you vulnerable, not just a process that runs in the background in order to keep you from having access to all of your abilities at any one time. I don't think there's really anything similar to those mechanics for most cool downs.

If you're reloading in the middle of an FPS firefight, it's likely either because you messed up your execution (missed too many times), had poor planning (didn't pick up ammo / reload your gun before the fight), or weren't paying close enough attention to your surroundings (got caught off guard) - it's a punishment for mistakes, and more powerful guns usually grant the player fewer mistakes before punishing them. There's real risk-reward involved there.

Cool downs usually don't have that much decision making, in my experience. You kind of just have a pre-planned line up of powers you cycle through, and the execution test just comes from getting them out as soon as they're ready. It's usually less interesting, in my opinion.
 
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Brainfreeze

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,686
New Jersey
Edit: Oops, double post

I think, for the purpose of the thread, we should define "cool down" as something that is:

A) passive (you can still perform all actions not on cool down while an ability recharges)

B) automatic (the ability will recharge without the need for any specific resource or action to prompt it)

C) player-action-oriented (made to prevent a character from spamming an ability; different from something like a power weapon spawn timer, which prevents everyone on the map from using the same ability at the same time)

Or something like that.
 
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KDR_11k

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
5,235
I hate the cooldownification of abilities these days. Seems to be designed to force you to use all abilities and mainly rely on shooting rather than playing a spellcaster build. We used to have mana pools and decide how to spend these, now it's all a bunch of different abilities on individual cooldowns with the intent apparently being that you cycle through all of them every time they're ready. There's no deciding that you want to throw three fireballs in a row, you throw them every X seconds as the game designer tells you to. Compare the class differences in Destiny 2 and Hellgate London. In D2 the differences are almost negligible, your main actions are still running around and shooting guns that are available to every class, the differences only come into play roughly once per minute. In HGL you have a whole hotbar of moves you can use as long as you have mana and these differ massively between classes, especially between classes from different main types (melee, ranged and caster).

My main issue is really that it tried to force you into a skill rotation instead of giving you an option to pace your resources however you want to (e.g. burst a specific ability rapidly at the expense of being able to use it later). And I often see cooldowns used to force players to rely on the default attack for most of a game.

In most shooters, when your clip is empty you spend time reloading. That mechanic is a cooldown.
Disagree, a cooldown mechanic is one where you are prevented from repeating that specific action with no impact on your other abilities. E.g. in Destiny 2 you can move, shoot, change weapons, reload, etc while your grenade is on cooldown but you cannot throw a second grenade. To actually do your reloading timer you have to keep that weapon out, not melee and in some games not run either. You decide when you start that reload timer and can sometimes interrupt and restart it by switching weapons or using one of your non-weapon attacks. A cooldown would be like some of the airstrikes in EDF5, you use them, put the weapon away and let it reload in your pocket while you keep fighting with another weapon. Although some cooldown weapons in EDF5 still have timing tactics involved when they have multiple charges, you can discard the remaining charges and start the cooldown immediately.
 
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SirKai

SirKai

Member
Dec 28, 2017
7,366
Washington
That's because if she could just do that it would be insanely overpowered, so they have to limit that in another way and make it more risky.
Her "normal" ability is on a cooldown tho, like most world abilities in Siege.

What? No it isn't; she can call defenders twice per round. There's no cool down at all, and most operators aren't balanced by cool downs either.
 

medyej

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,424
I'm not a fan of it. It especially doesn't make sense in a round based game like Siege, where consistency and predictability is what made it so well formed to begin with. For example, knowing that the Thermite only has two of his special breaching charges, or that Buck has used one of his two grenades. That goes out the window with operators whose abilities just only work on cooldowns, sure you can predict how long until they have it ready again but it's just not the same as having a consistent amount of uses for the loadout.
 
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SirKai

SirKai

Member
Dec 28, 2017
7,366
Washington
Not sure if we are talking about the same thing here but there absolutely is a cool down between the uses.
Think it's 5-10 seconds, something like that.

I double checked and you are correct; Dok's calling does have a cool down. I eat crow.

Still, the influence of an ability like this on cool down is unnoticeable (I mean, I literally never noticed it) since it recharges pretty quickly during the active effect of the ability where it makes no sense to use again.

Nonetheless, you were 100% right.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,378
I double checked and you are correct; Dok's calling does have a cool down. I eat crow.

Still, the influence of an ability like this on cool down is unnoticeable (I mean, I literally never noticed it) since it recharges pretty quickly during the active effect of the ability where it makes no sense to use again.

Nonetheless, you were 100% right.
Eh, to be fair I thought it would take longer to recharge before I looked it up as well. And as you said the effect is still going, I didn't even think about that.
Let's just say we were both 100% right and move on. :D
 

Arttemis

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
6,199
Half of the abilities in Diablo 3 have cooldowns, and it sucks. They're apparently still using this design in DIablo 4, so I'm pretty uninterested.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
If I said it's been bothering me lately I'd be lying, it didn't catch my eye in any way, but it does often feel like a substitute for mechanical depth, or a high execution ceiling. Every player must be able to do everything from the get go, so the only way you have to balance more powerful stuff is by putting it on a longer cooldown. Capcom doesn't need to put Nero's MAX Act on a cooldown because it gives you much more damage per hit than EX Act or no instant Rev at all, they just make it a small window (2~3 frames in DMC5, I think?) that is hard to hit. The better you get, as a player, the more damage you'll do.

Everything on cooldowns does lead to a more flat playing experience. You may get a little better at cycling, or get some skills/equipment that reduce cooldown, but your performance will never be drastically impacted by your capabilities as a player.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
The alternative is having to scour for grenade ammo, which is much worse. Grenade cooldowns were an amazing development last gen.
I always thought it worked fine in the Halo games, because grenades were a pretty common pickup.

I wanna be able to spam grenades, and if my throw is off I don't want to wait 30 seconds to try again.
 

Arta

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,445
Even fighting games like Gran Blue Fantasy Versus have slipped in cooldown mechanics these days.
 

Nessus

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,907
Personally I'd much rather powerful moves be limited by resources (ammo, mana, etc.) than cooldowns.
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,559
I've noticed this too, and it really does feel like it's sanding down the edges of resource management a little too much. This is part of why I enjoy KI so much, all those wacky ways they balanced tertiary resource gain:
Spinal: Land special moves
Fulgore: Cooldown based, technically, but a speed based on actions taken
Maya: Have certain moves get *blocked*
Aganos: Store motions when possible
Hisako: Like Dark Souls stamina
Aria: Split into healthbars
Arbiter: Cooldown and hard limit based
Mira: Drain own health, potentially
Kim Wu: Land counters or hit a certain combo path
Eyedol: Land moves which are then used by a randomly switched to other form
Kilgore: Charge over time
Eagle: Pickup resources over field

Nutty.
 

Harken Raiser

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,992
Even fighting games like Gran Blue Fantasy Versus have slipped in cooldown mechanics these days.
I used to like the idea of a simplified fighting game that uses cooldowns, but then I played Power Rangers Battle for the Grid where you can just throw out single button specials without any cooldowns, and that conceived me that they aren't necessary at all.
 

molnizzle

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,695
I always thought it worked fine in the Halo games, because grenades were a pretty common pickup.

I wanna be able to spam grenades, and if my throw is off I don't want to wait 30 seconds to try again.
Halo is exactly the game I was thinking of. Especially in multiplayer, I was always wishing I had more grenades.

If they were spammable then they couldn't be as powerful as they are. Or the entire game would just revolve around grenade chucking rather than shooting. There has to be scarcity, but with a cooldown at least you know exactly when you'll get the next round. You can plan around it.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
Halo is exactly the game I was thinking of. Especially in multiplayer, I was always wishing I had more grenades.

If they were spammable then they couldn't be as powerful as they are. Or the entire game would just revolve around grenade chucking rather than shooting. There has to be scarcity, but with a cooldown at least you know exactly when you'll get the next round. You can plan around it.
I think they handled scarcity pretty well Halo let you carry like 2-3 grenades of each type, for a maximum of like 6 betweem plasma and frag grenades. If you whiffed on one throw you usually could make a second attempt

By comparison, if you whiffed a throw in Destiny you were just stuck waiting on a very long cooldown (30-60 seconds I think).
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,641
You know when most of your cool attacks in GoW outside of basic combos are on a cooldown, you've gone too far.