• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,029
Seems kinda like apples and oranges. Like... Comparing a pretty narrow sub genre to ..... Like 3(ish) continents worth of media.

Is anime more problematic than western animation? Yes. The only way it is not more problematic is if you're determined to make false equivalencies.
 

Yukari

Member
Mar 28, 2018
11,709
Thailand
Talk About sexualizing minors or women scene.

The First Seven Volumes of Keroro Gunso manga has a bunch of that.
Until Anime Adaptation become popular. it makes Publisher censor of later printing and no sexualizing scene in later chapter anymore.
 

GameChanger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,935
Anime is definitely worse in many ways. This includes hypersexualized females, sexualized minors and depiction of race.
 
Jun 17, 2019
2,182
For the record most women in Japan dislike a lot of the stuff that happens in Shonen anime as well. Mina Le gives a great breakdown about the school girl uniform and what's really going on there and how a lot of this stuff came about.



I would think it's better to frame this question as "Is Young Adult/Teen age fictional animation in Japan more problematic than Young Adult/Teenage fictional live action dramas in US/CAN/EU/AUS?" than how it's being framed here.

But to answer the question, no it's not more problematic because they both have problematic issues.

Firstly most, if not all of, Anime that comes to the west is drastically works that are written by authors that are writing for a young audience of teenagers. Shows like One Piece, or Dragon Ball, or BNH, or Bleach, etc. are all written traditionally for teen boys ages 10 to 15 or 16. Though it can be read by anyone, and it is. The idea is that the writers are writing to a younger teen audience who tends to think of dumb teen things. It's not designed to be read by adults as there are more mature comics that are written for the adult audiences out there.Series like Monster, or JJBA (the newer chapters) are all designed for older teens to college age readers that, while they may feature some sex, the way it's used is no where the same as what's shown in some shonen anime.

Also it depends on the writer and the editorial team. If you look at the works of say Blue Exorcist and D-Gray Man, neither uses the tropes that are typically seen in shonen works regarding how girls are shown in them, and that's partly because they are written by women. Series like Claymore or even Kenshin (Yes I know about the author) have, for the most part, zero to very little in the way of the tropes being used. Honestly I can't think of a moment in Kenshin where anyone touched the leading lady in a tropey manner.

Then there's the fact that these tropes are not prevalent in Shojo, or teen girls manga, which again is designed for teen girls, but they have there own issues that come with romance genres.

Second, there are a lot of anime in Japan that are no were as bad as the shonen manga adaptions that just don't show up here in the states. Some series are not easy to adapt to make them mainstream here so shows are passed on. The ones we get here are just the tip of the ice burg.So it's really hard to judge the whole of anime when really most westerners only see a very limited subset that is considered easily consumable here in the west from Japan.

Third teen shows and even teen media have always been problematic because of how drama's are made in the west. Right off the top of my head I can think of three series where you have the teen leads having relations with teachers Dawson's Creek (Pacey and his English teacher), Riverdale (Archie and Grundy) and Pretty little Liars. You see a lot of the tropes that Anime does in teen series in western teen dramas. Riverdale had Betty and Veronica kiss to titillate the audience.There are book series for YA where characters are basically teens having relations with older people or really young bodice rippers.Too many teen shows have moments of shots where you have the girls showing off their asses or their boobs in some way to the camera to make boys and girls (in regard to the guys taking off their shirts) get all hot and bothered with what they see.

So honestly if we're going to be judging these shows we have to have more context in regard to why certain forms of sexuality should not be explored or shown to teens.

Lastly, in regard to the whole Shesshomaru issue with Rin, I'd like to point out that Western books have done this before. Charles Dickens Bleak house has it where the lead nearly marries her guardian, and it's only at the end of the story that she ends up not marrying the man and marries her friend. There's other examples out there as well. Rin was 19 at the time she gave birth to the two leads in Yashahime, and the dynamic between her and Sesshomaru is that of a daimyo and one of the ladies of his court. There is no father daughter relationship, that is with Jaken. The point of the story is that of a fairy-tale, and, as with Tales of Genji, for example, this follows a lot of actual history for nobles of the period.

If you want to get down to brass tacks, Date Masumune married his wife Megohime when she was 12 and he was 15 and she had their first kid at around 14 or 15 years old. The fact that they have Rin as 19 makes sense within the time frame of the story and the history of the period. Is it weird to us in the modern era, sure, but it doesn't change the fact that culturally in that time period women had children young because children had a higher mortality rate than they do now. And teenagers and kids only really started to be treated a lot like how we treat them now during the later 19 and into the 20th centuries. Before then, teens were considered young adults.
 

Yukari

Member
Mar 28, 2018
11,709
Thailand
Lastly, in regard to the whole Shesshomaru issue with Rin, I'd like to point out that Western books have done this before. Charles Dickens Bleak house has it where the lead nearly marries her guardian, and it's only at the end of the story that she ends up not marrying the man and marries her friend. There's other examples out there as well. Rin was 19 at the time she gave birth to the two leads in Yashahime, and the dynamic between her and Sesshomaru is that of a daimyo and one of the ladies of his court. There is no father daughter relationship, that is with Jaken. The point of the story is that of a fairy-tale, and, as with Tales of Genji, for example, this follows a lot of actual history for nobles of the period.

If you want to get down to brass tacks, Date Masumune married his wife Megohime when she was 12 and he was 15 and she had their first kid at around 14 or 15 years old. The fact that they have Rin as 19 makes sense within the time frame of the story and the history of the period. Is it weird to us in the modern era, sure, but it doesn't change the fact that culturally in that time period women had children young because children had a higher mortality rate than they do now. And teenagers and kids only really started to be treated a lot like how we treat them now during the later 19 and into the 20th centuries. Before then, teens were considered young adults.

It's still not confirmed that how old Rin when she gave birth to the twin.
For The age gap relationship in western media. I'm not sure Old Disney Princess movies can be count?

The Princess pretty much around teenage but the Prince I think is 20+
 
Jun 17, 2019
2,182
It's still not confirmed that how old Rin when she gave birth to the twin.
For The age gap relationship in western media. I'm not sure Old Disney Princess movies can be count?

The Princess pretty much around teenage but the Prince I think is 20+

As far as I know from what little we have of ages for Disney princesses.

Snow white age 14, Prince Florian age 15 to 18

Cinderella age 19, Prince Charming age 19 to 25

Aurora age 16, Prince Phillip age 19 to 23

Ariel age 16, Eric age 18

Belle age 17, Adam/Beast age 21

Jasmin age 16, Aladdin age 18

Pocahontas age 17, John Smith age 25, John Rolf age 23-24

Mulan age 16, Shang age 18 to 24

Hercules age 18, Meg age 19

www.pinterest.com

Ages of Disney Princesses and Princes | Disney princess ages, Disney princesses and princes, Disney princess names

Jun 13, 2016 - This Pin was discovered by Alyssa Danielle. Discover (and save!) your own Pins on Pinterest

Link to other ages
 

arcadepc

Banned
Dec 28, 2019
1,925
As far as I know from what little we have of ages for Disney princesses.

Snow white age 14, Prince Florian age 15 to 18

Cinderella age 19, Prince Charming age 19 to 25

Aurora age 16, Prince Phillip age 19 to 23

Ariel age 16, Eric age 18

Belle age 17, Adam/Beast age 21

Jasmin age 16, Aladdin age 18

Pocahontas age 17, John Smith age 25, John Rolf age 23-24

Mulan age 16, Shang age 18 to 24

Hercules age 18, Meg age 19

www.pinterest.com

Ages of Disney Princesses and Princes | Disney princess ages, Disney princesses and princes, Disney princess names

Jun 13, 2016 - This Pin was discovered by Alyssa Danielle. Discover (and save!) your own Pins on Pinterest

Link to other ages

Disney increased the character age as well compared to the source material ,whether fairy tale or novel.

Eg Esmeralda in the novel is 16 and Disney made her older and more mature looking and sounding.

The Little Mermaid is 15 in the fairy tale,but far worse is how Disney perverted and ruined the original

 
Jun 17, 2019
2,182
Disney increased the character age as well compared to the source material ,whether fairy tale or novel.

Eg Esmeralda in the novel is 16 and Disney made her older and more mature looking and sounding.

The Little Mermaid is 15 in the fairy tale,but far worse is how Disney perverted and ruined the original


I wouldn't say they ruined it. I would say it is about the same level of fanfiction that a lot of alternate takes on classic stories are done.

I mean honestly I'm kinda glad they did what they did to Pinocchio. I don't think anyone wants a movie to end with
(and then the kid hung himself because the author hated kids)
.
 

Dracil

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,437
I mean Sleeping Beauty's original story the prince (actually a married king in the original) basically raped and got the princess pregnant and she woke up because one of the twins she gives births to sucks out the splinter by accident while trying to suck on her breast milk.
 

apocat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,057
I mean Sleeping Beauty's original story the prince (actually a married king in the original) basically raped and got the princess pregnant and she woke up because one of the twins she gives births to sucks out the splinter by accident while trying to suck on her breast milk.

It's really annoying that the SJWs are censoring this european cultural heritage. I demand that Disney releases the original uncensored version of Sleeping Beauty. #releasethesplintermilkcut
 

John Doe

Avenger
Jan 24, 2018
3,443
One Piece: the best selling manga for decades: As per shounen norms its 99% male cast, with 1 or 2 women who aren't as strong but they're there and they all have that one body type, while the strongest woman is a hideous, overweight lady who loves food (and there's also Boa Hancock, who fights with the power of infatuation because of course she does lol).

I agree with this except for the big mom shout. Her weight is never played for laughs and no one ever insults her on the basis of it. Is it not okay to depict women with different body types in anime?

I've got no issue with big mom. Otherwise One piece has a MAJOR problem with how it displays women, from body types right down.
 

Combo

Banned
Jan 8, 2019
2,437
I don't know about anime but a lot of this modern western pop music is atrocious. Imagine being a teen girl who sees all famous female singers as hyper sexualized. What does it do to your mental health?
 

Qikz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,488
Comparing Game of Thrones to general anime seems kind of dishonest when there's a pretty clear age rating on these HBO shows while many anime have casual sex offenders and heavy violence in shows straight up intended for younger audiences. That's not excusing some of the content on adult TV shows, but its not comparably normalizing objectification specifically for young people during their formative years. Anime in general is considered childish in Japan afaik.
The comparison should really be between manga+anime and comics+cartoons.

I guess a few current examples of media largely consumed by young people would be helpful.
One Piece: the best selling manga for decades: As per shounen norms its 99% male cast, with 1 or 2 women who aren't as strong but they're there and they all have that one body type, while the strongest woman is a hideous, overweight lady who loves food (and there's also Boa Hancock, who fights with the power of infatuation because of course she does lol). Then there's the whole thing with the Okama characters and Sanji.
MHA: another really popular IP, with the authors self insert character being the funny pervert trope kid who literally has a peep hole into the girls locker room.
Fire Force: The girls power seemed to be to have guys accidentally grope her? I didn't watch all of this one.

Isn't Robin like one of the stronger strawhats? She literally takes down entire groups of people in one go. I don't really think it's fair to say she's not strong.

There's also lots of different female characters in One Piece that are not the same body type as Nami - one thing that One Piece does well is the sheer variety in character design at least in the manga. Even bringing up Hancock her two sister like characters are both nothing like and have drastically different body types.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,694
I agree with this except for the big mom shout. Her weight is never played for laughs and no one ever insults her on the basis of it. Is it not okay to depict women with different body types in anime?

I've got no issue with big mom. Otherwise One piece has a MAJOR problem with how it displays women, from body types right down.

She literally eats food
and people
so her body type is no mistake, especially considering shes supposed to be kind of ugly too.

Isn't Robin like one of the stronger strawhats? She literally takes down entire groups of people in one go. I don't really think it's fair to say she's not strong.

There's also lots of different female characters in One Piece that are not the same body type as Nami - one thing that One Piece does well is the sheer variety in character design at least in the manga. Even bringing up Hancock her two sister like characters are both nothing like and have drastically different body types.

Didn't say they're not strong, just always second fiddle.
 
Last edited:

RROCKMAN

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,824
For the record most women in Japan dislike a lot of the stuff that happens in Shonen anime as well. Mina Le gives a great breakdown about the school girl uniform and what's really going on there and how a lot of this stuff came about.



I would think it's better to frame this question as "Is Young Adult/Teen age fictional animation in Japan more problematic than Young Adult/Teenage fictional live action dramas in US/CAN/EU/AUS?" than how it's being framed here.

But to answer the question, no it's not more problematic because they both have problematic issues.

Firstly most, if not all of, Anime that comes to the west is drastically works that are written by authors that are writing for a young audience of teenagers. Shows like One Piece, or Dragon Ball, or BNH, or Bleach, etc. are all written traditionally for teen boys ages 10 to 15 or 16. Though it can be read by anyone, and it is. The idea is that the writers are writing to a younger teen audience who tends to think of dumb teen things. It's not designed to be read by adults as there are more mature comics that are written for the adult audiences out there.Series like Monster, or JJBA (the newer chapters) are all designed for older teens to college age readers that, while they may feature some sex, the way it's used is no where the same as what's shown in some shonen anime.

Also it depends on the writer and the editorial team. If you look at the works of say Blue Exorcist and D-Gray Man, neither uses the tropes that are typically seen in shonen works regarding how girls are shown in them, and that's partly because they are written by women. Series like Claymore or even Kenshin (Yes I know about the author) have, for the most part, zero to very little in the way of the tropes being used. Honestly I can't think of a moment in Kenshin where anyone touched the leading lady in a tropey manner.

Then there's the fact that these tropes are not prevalent in Shojo, or teen girls manga, which again is designed for teen girls, but they have there own issues that come with romance genres.

Second, there are a lot of anime in Japan that are no were as bad as the shonen manga adaptions that just don't show up here in the states. Some series are not easy to adapt to make them mainstream here so shows are passed on. The ones we get here are just the tip of the ice burg.So it's really hard to judge the whole of anime when really most westerners only see a very limited subset that is considered easily consumable here in the west from Japan.

Third teen shows and even teen media have always been problematic because of how drama's are made in the west. Right off the top of my head I can think of three series where you have the teen leads having relations with teachers Dawson's Creek (Pacey and his English teacher), Riverdale (Archie and Grundy) and Pretty little Liars. You see a lot of the tropes that Anime does in teen series in western teen dramas. Riverdale had Betty and Veronica kiss to titillate the audience.There are book series for YA where characters are basically teens having relations with older people or really young bodice rippers.Too many teen shows have moments of shots where you have the girls showing off their asses or their boobs in some way to the camera to make boys and girls (in regard to the guys taking off their shirts) get all hot and bothered with what they see.

So honestly if we're going to be judging these shows we have to have more context in regard to why certain forms of sexuality should not be explored or shown to teens.

Lastly, in regard to the whole Shesshomaru issue with Rin, I'd like to point out that Western books have done this before. Charles Dickens Bleak house has it where the lead nearly marries her guardian, and it's only at the end of the story that she ends up not marrying the man and marries her friend. There's other examples out there as well. Rin was 19 at the time she gave birth to the two leads in Yashahime, and the dynamic between her and Sesshomaru is that of a daimyo and one of the ladies of his court. There is no father daughter relationship, that is with Jaken. The point of the story is that of a fairy-tale, and, as with Tales of Genji, for example, this follows a lot of actual history for nobles of the period.

If you want to get down to brass tacks, Date Masumune married his wife Megohime when she was 12 and he was 15 and she had their first kid at around 14 or 15 years old. The fact that they have Rin as 19 makes sense within the time frame of the story and the history of the period. Is it weird to us in the modern era, sure, but it doesn't change the fact that culturally in that time period women had children young because children had a higher mortality rate than they do now. And teenagers and kids only really started to be treated a lot like how we treat them now during the later 19 and into the 20th centuries. Before then, teens were considered young adults.


damn, the leg work on this answer

I appreciate it.
 

Mendrox

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
9,439
Lol Big Mum has also been shown to be beautiful in the past. She is totally fine. Also Robin kicks ass too.

Black Clover still has the best women in Shounen.
 

John Doe

Avenger
Jan 24, 2018
3,443
She literally eats food
and people
so her body type is no mistake, especially considering shes supposed to be kind of ugly too.


The food thing is neither here nor there for me since the main character himself is a massive glutton. Big Mom is also portrayed as being slimmer in her early adult life.

Right now she's 68 or so and has something like 85 kids. One Piece is an anime and the world itself is magical so yes she could be that age, eat that much and have that many kids yet not be that weight.

However, no one treats her like a joke or trivialises her because of it in universe. Big Mom is viewed as a major threat and treated as such. No one has even damaged her in combat so far and since OP is a shonen that counts for a lot. Every one of the other Yonko has been clowned at one point or another by now. I'd agree with you if she was portrayed like a joke with her weight being at the centre of the "comedy".

Never once has any character questioned her strength or ability because of her weight as might happen in other shows. A sentence like "How can she be an emperor, she's so fat" is never used.
 

Sea lion

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
903
Robin does nothing anymore.
Barely even speaks let alone fights.

Wasted character.

I've also been rewatching Alabasta and have noticed all the female background characters have light skin. Every single one, where as the male characters have a vast range from white to brown. Strange as Alabasta is basically Egypt, but I guess their princess is porcelain white too. At least Robin was kinda tanned.. until she wasn't.

The manga is even worse for skin tones. I think Ms. Monday is literally the only black character in Odas colourings and he sure id her dirty. Blackbeards real world country would be Somalia yet he sure looks white on the volume covers.

To say the series is all about diversity and acceptance Oda likes no skin tone other than white. Guess he can steal from Black history with the japanese inspired fishmen though, thats cool.
 
Last edited:

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,694
Never once has any character questioned her strength or ability because of her weight as might happen in other shows. A sentence like "How can she be an emperor, she's so fat" is never used.

I dunno what to tell you. They depict her slobbering and obsessing about food
is an actual cannibal
and is supposed to look creepy/ugly in the face too. The point was the strongest woman in the show looks like this (not unlike Alvida before she slimmed down into the usual One Piece "pretty" figure) while Kaido is kinda ripped. Its not an accident nor is it intended to be wholesome representation of body types.
 

Foot

Member
Mar 10, 2019
10,882
Love it, the character meant to be repulsive as positive representation. Ah, anime fans.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,377
Talk About sexualizing minors or women scene.

The First Seven Volumes of Keroro Gunso manga has a bunch of that.
Until Anime Adaptation become popular. it makes Publisher censor of later printing and no sexualizing scene in later chapter anymore.

I don't think sexualizing minors ever stopped in Keroro. There's a chapter around volume 22 where Natsumi is turned into a vampire and she basically spends the entire chapter naked aside from a shadow cape covering critical areas. What actually changed was that the manga stopped featuring shots of girls with visible nipples, and even went back and removed earlier ones in reprints of early volumes.

Still, Keroro won a children's manga award even before that change. I think that removal was more about standards for children manga changing. Back in the 80s and 90s children manga could have stuff like nipples with little issue, while in the 00s it became something you'd only see in ecchi focused manga aimed at teens or manga for college aged or older audiences. Keroro started running in 99, so it was right during that transition (while the anime was firmly in the middle 00s).
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
the only reason the west gets away with the sexualization of minors is because they cast 25 something years old people on the roles.

but they are always supposed to be minors.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,694
South Park plays racial stereotypes for laughs. Western cartoons don't get the moral high ground here, and I say this as someone who has no affinity with One Piece.

This is still the Game of Thrones fallacy. One Piece is read/watched by people of all ages and is marketed as such. I get that its easy enough for younger people to get hold of South Park episodes, but its still an adults only intended show with deliberately offensive cardboard characters rather than characters that are indicative of a larger problem with the medium.
 

Dracil

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,437
the only reason the west gets away with the sexualization of minors is because they cast 25 something years old people on the roles.

but they are always supposed to be minors.
So this https://www.huffpost.com/entry/glees-gq-photo-shoot-blas_n_771130 They're not children, they're just 1000 year old dragons 25 year old actors!

Regardless of memes, Western media targeted at children certainly does have its share of problems though.

www.culturalweekly.com

Lights, Camera, Child Abuse: The Toleration of Child Sexualization in Hollywood and the Implications of Abuse for Minority Girls - Cultural Daily

“Her admirers—middle-aged men and clergymen—respond to her dubious coquetry, to the sight of her well-shaped and desirable little body, packed with enormous vitality, only because the safety curtain of story and dialogue drops between their intelligence and their desire.” In 1937, Graham Greene...

which talks about this paper https://www.etr.org/blog/research-childrens-media/ with the full paper at https://www.etr.org/default/assets/File/publications/McDade-Montez-Sexualization-Paper.pdf

Similarly in Europe
www.researchgate.net

(PDF) Separating the sex from the object: conceptualizing sexualization and (sexual) objectification in Flemish preteens’ popular television programs

PDF | Media effects research has confirmed that sexualizing media exposure can negatively affect preteens’ body image and sexual development. While... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate
 
Last edited:

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,543
This is still the Game of Thrones fallacy. One Piece is read/watched by people of all ages and is marketed as such. I get that its easy enough for younger people to get hold of South Park episodes, but its still an adults only intended show with deliberately offensive cardboard characters rather than characters that are indicative of a larger problem with the medium.
Comparing South Park to Game of Thrones is something else. As far as I know, South Park has a TV-14 rating now, excluding the newer seasons.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,694
Comparing South Park to Game of Thrones is something else. As far as I know, South Park has a TV-14 rating now, excluding the newer seasons.

GoT was brought up in comparison to anime earlier. Im not sure what the comparison between anime for all ages/teens vs TVMA live action productions really aims to achieve. Is western media more problematic as a whole compared to Japanese media? maybe? but for some reason its specifically anime vs everything else. Like I don't think the Snookie/Jersey Shore episode of South Park was saying overweight people are horrible monsters, while the best selling manga might really be kinda trying to say that *shrug* (South Park has more issues with trying to both sides topical subject matter)
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,543
GoT was brought up in comparison to anime earlier. Im not sure what the comparison between anime for all ages/teens vs TVMA live action productions really aims to achieve. Is western media more problematic as a whole compared to Japanese media? maybe? but for some reason its specifically anime vs everything else. Like I don't think the Snookie/Jersey Shore episode of South Park was saying overweight people are horrible monsters, while the best selling manga might really be kinda trying to say that *shrug* (South Park has more issues with trying to both sides topical subject matter)
I didn't mention live action though? Like, South Park is an extreme example, but there are many other examples of western animation that show racially insensitive content: The Simpsons, Looney Tunes, The Aristocrats being famous examples.

Anime is cool to shit on, I know, I do it all the time, but let's not pretend western animation doesn't have its own issues.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,694
I didn't mention live action though? Like, South Park is an extreme example, but there are many other examples of western animation that show racially insensitive content: The Simpsons, Looney Tunes, The Aristocrats being famous examples.

Anime is cool to shit on, I know, I do it all the time, but let's not pretend western animation doesn't have its own issues.

Yeah, there's a long history of problems in animation (assume you mean Aristocats?), but more recently cartoons, particularly ones aimed at younger and all age audiences which is by far the most important demographic might be the most progressive media on average.
 

Yukari

Member
Mar 28, 2018
11,709
Thailand
Trust me in any society, entertainment media will be full of would-be abusers, particularly societies were men are overwhelmingly in charge like Japan or Korea. Ton of horrible stories about idols/kpop/jpop.

Yeah, Recently in Thai. It has news about well knows Producers/Modeling. Who gets caught for seducing young girls and Blackmails them back.

The Fuck up is he does this for more than 20 years and the parent still sends their child to him.
 
Last edited:

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,660
Overall I'd say both have their problematic sides...

But I'd still say Anime if just because if anything it seems to be both getting worse and better whereas western media is generally moving to be more progressive faster. If we just talk about recent Western Cartoon versus Anime, it's not even close which side is more problematic.
 

apocat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,057
the only reason the west gets away with the sexualization of minors is because they cast 25 something years old people on the roles.

but they are always supposed to be minors.

There is a difference between sexualization of teenagers and depicting them as having a sex life. You won't find a group of teenagers anywhere on earth that doesn't have sex. It's fine to depict that in fiction. Something like the norwegian show Skam is one of my favourite modern depictions of approaching adulthood, and it's explicit as all hell.

Anime often sexualizes far younger characters than that, and even when the characters are supposedly older they are often depicted as childlike and infantile. It's honestly quite disturbing, and is basicaly the inverse of depicting younger characters with older actors.
 
Nov 18, 2020
1,408
Overall I'd say both have their problematic sides...

But I'd still say Anime if just because if anything it seems to be both getting worse and better whereas western media is generally moving to be more progressive faster. If we just talk about recent Western Cartoon versus Anime, it's not even close which side is more problematic.
This is a great point. If you notice, the alt-right seem to have co-opted Anime. Like it's seen as the "last bastion" of normalcy not "infested by the SJWs." There are a lot of alt-right trolls out there with Anime avatars.

Western media (specifically American / Canadian / Western European) increasingly seems to be skewing towards diversity, particularly in books. I see lots of books with strong female leads, main characters with diverse heritage beyond your typical white male, LGBTQ main characters.....even in children's media! It seems to be leapfrogging ahead expanding the boundaries of what's possible in fiction.

...Whereas Anime is frustratingly backwards and over-reliant on tired tropes.

www.ranker.com

The 15 Character Types That Describe Every Single Girl In Harem Anime

Fans of the polyamorous genre know that when they start a new series, they're going to encounter a specific set of anime harem girl tropes, featuring a cast of love interests they've probably seen before. A rose by any other name, right?Like any weird Japanese dating sim, the types of anime harem...

Don't get me wrong, there are definitely Anime out there that shake it up (like BNA: Brand New Animal, or Michiko to Hatchin, or Kino no Tabi off the top of my head), but I can see the divide between the two growing over time.
 
Last edited:

purseowner

From the mirror universe
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,444
UK
No point in starting a competition to the bottom. We should recognize that all cultures and media spheres are capable of and commit heinous bullshit on the reg. We also should be careful not to veer into western exceptionalism.
Best post in the thread.

Some of the responses on the first few pages rushing to make sweeping generalisations about an entire culture are embarrassing at best.

(And yes, anime is far from representative of Japanese culture at large, but the thread framing does invite 'us vs them' type comparisons that veer towards exceptionalism and worse)
 

Shining Star

Banned
May 14, 2019
4,458
This is a great point. If you notice, the alt-right seem to have co-opted Anime. Like it's seen as the "last bastion" of normalcy not "infested by the SJWs." There are a lot of alt-right trolls out there with Anime avatars.

Western media (specifically American / Canadian / Western European) increasingly seems to be skewing towards diversity, particularly in books. I see lots of books with strong female leads, main characters with diverse heritage beyond your typical white male, LGBTQ main characters.....even in children's media! It seems to be leapfrogging ahead expanding the boundaries of what's possible in fiction.

As I talked about earlier in this thread, anime is well ahead of western media in terms of the amount (and variety!) of different series with strong women leads and often entirely female casts. There's so much out there that you would never see here in terms of what women get to do and be on TV. And especially in terms of LGBT leads and themes anime deserves all the credit for making them normal and even common.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,126
As I talked about earlier in this thread, anime is well ahead of western media in terms of the amount (and variety!) of different series with strong women leads and often entirely female casts. There's so much out there that you would never see here in terms of what women get to do and be on TV. And especially in terms of LGBT leads and themes anime deserves all the credit for making them normal and even common.
Well, yeah, anime studios can just outsource and pay little for animators to churn out lots of anime. A large amount existing means nothing when the overwhelming majority have very problematic aspects of it, and these aren't problems are gun worship or even being related to war but things like race, gender equality, how women are viewed, to sexualizing women and young kids, etc. Some gems in a sea of crap doesn't mean much. May as well say anime is well ahead of its time cause Ghibli exists.
 

Shining Star

Banned
May 14, 2019
4,458
Well, yeah, anime studios can just outsource and pay little for animators to churn out lots of anime. A large amount existing means nothing when the overwhelming majority have very problematic aspects of it, and these aren't problems are gun worship or even being related to war but things like race, gender equality, how women are viewed, to sexualizing women and young kids, etc. Some gems in a sea of crap doesn't mean much. May as well say anime is well ahead of its time cause Ghibli exists.

Gems in a sea of crap, overwhelming majority, I'd like to know where you're pulling these statements from? Well given that I said there are way more anime with good women lead characters than there are Western shows... did you know more than half of all anime in existence have been made after 2010? And even the very first ones only go back to the 60s? I'm willing to bet there's a lot more Western television than there is anime out there. And if there are more good anime, hmm... which one having a good show would be a gem in a sea of crap?

But if you want to look for yourself, go look at what anime are airing in this one season (Winter 2021) and see how many there are. Then see how many have women as the main characters. Then try to find a single season of Western television in history that's better and see how that goes.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,126
Gems in a sea of crap, overwhelming majority, I'd like to know where you're pulling these statements from? Well given that I said there are way more anime with good women lead characters than there are Western shows... did you know more than half of all anime in existence have been made after 2010? And even the very first ones only go back to the 60s? I'm willing to bet there's a lot more Western television than there is anime out there. And if there are more good anime, hmm... which one having a good show would be a gem in a sea of crap?

But if you want to look for yourself, go look at what anime are airing in this one season (Winter 2021) and see how many there are. Then see how many have women as the main characters. Then try to find a single season of Western television in history that's better and see how that goes.
You literally just ask me where I'm pulling these statements from but you then compare the history of anime with western media over the decades and just state anime has more shows with quality women leads.

But yes, a lot of anime and most is crap. They're not even subtle with how gross it can be. There's a reason why certain groups latch onto anime because a lot project their personal fantasy of submissive waifus~~~ while thinking they're alpha males cooler than cool. Yeah, there are some good ones, but the anime industry hasn't earned that trust to believe it's doing well.

But then again, I did check out that Winter 2021 lineup and I wasn't shocked to see a sequel to sexual assault joke simulator Seven Deadly Sins. So, I don't know. Maybe that thing has low ratings or isn't popular. Not sure. Like, I'm trying to think of a western TV show where the main character literally gropes the female lead constantly (she even fights him off too!) and does other things to her every episode, and then is renewed over and over again. Is there a show like that being aired somewhere right now?
 
Last edited:

FulcrumTK

Member
Oct 6, 2020
997
I'll say this. I follow some people on Twitter who are the most progressive, staunchly anti-capitalist motherfuckers. They'll always be willing to heavily criticize say, Game of Thrones and the MCU for their problematic content.

These same people are fans of anime with some vile pedophilic shit, like Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid and Made in Abyss, and I never see them criticize these anime. I know these two frequently receive criticism from others, but it feels like there's a significant subset of anime fans, even progressive anime fans, who handle problematic anime with kid gloves. I don't know if it's because they feel criticizing anime is equivalent to criticizing Japanese culture or if they're just numb to problematic content common in anime, but either way, it kinda turns me off from anime in general.
 

Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
There's some western media that made me question humanity too. I remember the one about beauty paugeant for kids and other mtv shows that made me look in the abyss
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
I really feel this should be reframed as "Anime vs. Western Animation". Because otherwise you're comparing a single medium from one, maybe two-three countries to the entire collected works of an entire half of the planet. It's a meaningless comparison - people referencing everything from Hollywood films to TV series and sitcoms proves it. Unless you're argument is that anime is one of the most vile mediums to ever exist, which is a take.

Keeping like and like, Japanese vs. Western cartoons....yes, anime is by orders of magnitude worse. Western animation does have its problems, and it has had and continues to have some deep-baked ones (like the continued persistence of Animated Shock Comedies), but there do seem to be general shifts of improvements across the medium helped by the number of different avenues animators can take. In contrast, anime's problematic natures are so ingrained that a lot of them have become codified into tropes that are just mindlessly regurgitated. The fact that such specific ideas like "tsundere", "moe", and "loli" are defined in the lexicon and thus pervasive only encapsulates that IMO.
Yeah, one thing I will say with this is there doesn't seem to be that much room (or rather, interest - at least from the bigwigs) for adult storytelling in Western animation. It's like everything is either Mickey Mouse or Family Guy. There's plenty of great stuff on either end of that spectrum that explores deeper ideas, but it still falls into either of those camps - Avatar or Batman TAS could never get too heavy, Rick & Morty or Bojack Horseman still had to go through the motions of including sufficient gross-out humor to keep the masses entertained. Strangely the best blend of "adult" animation that's still wholesome enough for all ages I can think of is like... Bob's Burgers, which is still just more or less cribbing the Simpsons/Family Guy formula, but is significantly tamer than the latter show.

Anime is weird in that I think there's less of a barrier between what goes into a kids' show or an adult show in terms of content, and the dividing line seems to be more about tone. So you end up with a lot of off-putting stuff in children's series all the time, and the only series that aren't super problematic are things like Pokemon that are explicitly targeting little kids (and made with international audiences in mind, the early episodes were a touch racier). I agree with the premise of the thread, with the caveat (that some others have mentioned here) that part of this stems from anime willing to tackle harder subjects more regularly, but yes, a lot of it comes down to perverted antics being played up for comedy. It'd be like if every American cartoon had a Quagmire from Family Guy in it.
 
Last edited:

Aloysius

Member
Nov 5, 2017
885
Minneapolis, MN
I love anime and manga, but you have to sort through a lot of weird and problematic shit to get to the good stuff. It is worse for sure.
Comparing anime to an entire countries media is weird, but the US definitely has questionable stuff that is just normalized. A lot of movies or shows are about teenagers and they usually have romance, sexualized characters, sex scenes, etc.
 

Biggersmaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,966
Minneapolis
Self-appointed Weebs preoccupying their time cancelling American media need to seriously examine their fucked up worldview. The Japanese sexualization of minors doesn't begin and end with anime. How openly popular Joshi Kosei, Little Idols, and chaku-ero is something unseen in the states. To say nothing of how girls and women are inappropriately positioned in ads, games, and print of less overtly gross places. So for this thread to only pit the sins of anime media against the whole of Western culture is disingenuous and frankly makes near impossible anyone to make a pro-Western media argument. It also further perpetuates this absurd unsaid excuse of Japanese naïveté on sex but also other issues. A pathetic fan mindset that somehow allows equally racist and homophobic views of Japanese culture to be ignored and excused, but position those same infractions as examples of American bigotry worthy of endless examination.
 
Last edited:

Starseeker

Banned
Dec 30, 2020
112
Best post in the thread.

Some of the responses on the first few pages rushing to make sweeping generalisations about an entire culture are embarrassing at best.

(And yes, anime is far from representative of Japanese culture at large, but the thread framing does invite 'us vs them' type comparisons that veer towards exceptionalism and worse)
Personally, I want to expect good faith from everyone here. Entertainment industries all train us to accept and express tacit racism, sexism, etc. so it's to be expected that a lot of people won't even notice the local flavor of bullshit. The problem is I'm all too used to folks around the internet turning a blind eye to bigotry or thinking western media is more enightened. The thread's framing indeed does us no favors, especially when the comparison points are so skewed. It's not right or helpful to compare these crimes by their Badness Points. Different problems manifest in different ways in different cultures. As much as anime and manga are plagued by pieces of shit like Nobuhiro Watsuki and his boy's club of peers who celebrate and socially protect him, I wouldn't feel comfortable making the claim that similar things don't happen elsewhere.